Further proof that Ron Paul is the most sane person in Washington

[quote name='Sporadic']Dead serious question, what would go on the chopping block while you are also cutting taxes?[/QUOTE]

Military. Close down all the foreign bases, end all the wars, and make the military almost solely for defending our (well, your - I'm Canadian) borders.

Intelligence. Shut down or at least severly downsize the FBI, CIA, NSA, and Homeland Security. The global size and effectiveness of terrorism is incredibly overblown, and I'm a big privacy nut - stop the spying.

Subsidies & bailouts. We do not have proper free-market capitalism ATM. Big business is heavily intertwined with government. Totally separate the two.

Social security & health care. Both are like throwing money into a black hole (a right-wing politician up here said that a few years ago). I haven't looked into the ramifications of totally cancelling both of them, so until I have, I'd say just reduce the size.

Education. Seriously, totally privatize it. Do you really want the state dictating what you learn and how? Curriculums are getting dumbed down, and degrees are becoming more and more worthless. Another black hole for tax dollars as well. R.P. on the matter.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's why.[/QUOTE]

It's kind of a weird thing though, like we implicitly (or consciously) realize that whoever gets the most money will win. Even that they should win. That's libertarian voting, right?
 
That's true SpazX, but that didn't stop me from voting for Joe Sestak in the primary.

I looked at Arlen Specter's vs. Joe Sestak's endorsements, they looked something like this:

[============================]
[=]

I think the reason more people, even Democrats, respect Ron Paul, is that we know where he stands on everything.

So sad that the apple has fallen far from the tree eh? re: Rand, I think ever since his Rachel Maddow interview he's been put in a bubble by the Republican establishment.
 
Funny you mention Sestak because I just got called about him. First time I've been called (or at least picked up the phone) about voting for somebody. It was weird. Went something like this:

"Hi I'm blahblahblah volunteering for Joe Sestak, do you know Joe?"
"Um.....yeah?"
"Do you plan on supporting him?"
"Um.....maybe?"
"Would you like me to send you some information about him?"
"Um.....maybe?"

She thought she was getting interference and couldn't understand me...short phone call though.
 
[quote name='TurboChickenMan']Military. Close down all the foreign bases, end all the wars, and make the military almost solely for defending our (well, your - I'm Canadian) borders.

Intelligence. Shut down or at least severly downsize the FBI, CIA, NSA, and Homeland Security. The global size and effectiveness of terrorism is incredibly overblown, and I'm a big privacy nut - stop the spying.

Subsidies & bailouts. We do not have proper free-market capitalism ATM. Big business is heavily intertwined with government. Totally separate the two.

Social security & health care. Both are like throwing money into a black hole (a right-wing politician up here said that a few years ago). I haven't looked into the ramifications of totally cancelling both of them, so until I have, I'd say just reduce the size.

Education. Seriously, totally privatize it. Do you really want the state dictating what you learn and how? Curriculums are getting dumbed down, and degrees are becoming more and more worthless. Another black hole for tax dollars as well. R.P. on the matter.[/QUOTE]

Ha, I was with you until the last two. People deserve the right to retire if they reach a certain age where most can no longer work and to get medical help when needed. It's not a "black hole for tax dollars" but an investment. Same with education.

Also, how can a place call itself a first world nation when their own citizens are passing on getting medical care (until it becomes too late) since it is too expensive? My own brother was almost forced to do that when a heart condition from birth became aggravated from some body building supplements he was taking. It's possible he wouldn't be alive if my parents didn't take out a 20K loan to pay for the surgery he needed.

Privatizing never works. It always ends up that we pay more for less.

[quote name='Msut77']http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2010/07/job-openings-per-worker/

Anyone able to come up with a good reason why the Republicans are on a Jihad against the Unemployed?

Not like the deficit matters to them so is there someone who will take a stab at a reason?[/QUOTE]

They are unemployed because they are lazy and how dare those lazy bastards leech off of the government me. I hate my job but I bootstrapped my way up to where I'm at with no help from anybody. If I can do it, why can't they?

I doubt the actual politicians believe that but their supporters eat that shit up.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Wu-Tang clan ain't nothin to fuck with.[/QUOTE]
Their financial planning services are awesome too.
 
Yeah lets privatize education.

For crying out loud, you'd think Ron Paul was the messiah or something to these people.
 
[quote name='TurboChickenMan']Health care[/QUOTE]

http://www.businessweek.com/blogs/money_politics/archives/2009/11/us_medical_pric.html

[quote name='IRHari']Stop linking to shit ChickenMan. We know Ron Paul's answer is 'the free market will fix it'.[/QUOTE]

You are dead on. I tried reading some of that shit he posted and it basically boiled down to "the government fucked everything up, they need to pull out and THE FREE MARKET will fix itself." Which is insane considering how much businesses are already fucking us with barriers in place.
 
Are you reading R.P.'s articles in detail or are you just skimming them?

It's not possible for you to judge for yourself how the free market would handle things, because we do not have a true free market right now.

I'm getting the feeling that you're instinctly bashing me and Ron Paul just because we have right-wing views ("these people"?). Like I said earlier, from experience there's no such thing as a right-winger on online gaming forums.

Cool the incensed chirping, please. Calmly argue your points, and I won't be so defensive next time.

Here's mine. Please read these, carefully... :whistle2:|

Corporatism
Farm subsidies
ENRON!
 
You know what I hear a lot of college-level socialists argue?

"It's not possible for you to judge for yourself how communism would handle things, because we have not ever experienced true communism."

Just saying. Never having had a 'true form' of something doesn't qualify it to be a great idea. Or even necessarily something with trying. Like sorcery.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You know what I hear a lot of college-level socialists argue?

"It's not possible for you to judge for yourself how communism would handle things, because we have not ever experienced true communism."

Just saying. Never having had a 'true form' of something doesn't qualify it to be a great idea. Or even necessarily something with trying. Like sorcery.[/QUOTE]

I was getting there, but I honestly want to see what he thinks. Ideals are usually pretty ideal and all.

Chicken - Even if there hasn't ever been a point in time where this country had a "true free market" was there a time when it was close? Or a country that's close?
 
The idea of communism is something I agree with. The idea of a free market is something I agree with.

I am, as a result, a socialist.


Oh my.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You know what I hear a lot of college-level socialists argue?

"It's not possible for you to judge for yourself how communism would handle things, because we have not ever experienced true communism."

Just saying. Never having had a 'true form' of something doesn't qualify it to be a great idea. Or even necessarily something with trying. Like sorcery.[/QUOTE]

I think just going to start replying to chicken dude by saying (in a Fred Flinstone voice) Herp-a-Derp-a doo.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You know what I hear a lot of college-level socialists argue?

"It's not possible for you to judge for yourself how communism would handle things, because we have not ever experienced true communism."

Just saying. Never having had a 'true form' of something doesn't qualify it to be a great idea. Or even necessarily something with trying. Like sorcery.[/QUOTE]
Well they're right, and so are you. No country to my knowledge has ever rigidly followed any system of government, yet that doesn't mean doing so is a good idea either. As a country we've moved further away from true capitalism, just look at the U.S. around the industrial revolution, that was far closer to capitalism than we have now, and it benefited those with the capital more than anyone else, big surprise.

That's why when people start talking about the evil socialists I roll my eyes, because those same people wouldn't want pure capitalism anymore than pure socialism. I'm not even sure most of them know what socialism is beyond it being "evil", as if something like that can be inherently good or evil.
 
I would like to point out that I am not a huge fan of communism, capitalism, or their diluted forms (socialism and corporatism, which are almost one and the same). I personally would like to see Social Credit (so what if it's a Wikipedia link? Why would I go all over looking for likely the same info when I know where can get it right away?). Neither government or money would rule things.

But such a radical change is a very long way off, if ever, so the closest alternative would be true free market capitalism.

When you have full competition, and the public is able to choose exactly who it deals with, things will pretty much even themselves out after a while.

[quote name='"Ron Paul"']The free market is a naturally occurring phenomenon that can't be eliminated by governments, not even totalitarian ones like the former Soviet Union. It can be regulated, over-taxed and manipulated until it is driven underground. Lately it has been wrongly accused of doing so many things it just doesn't do, that are really the fault of crony corporatism and convoluted government policies that brought on the crisis. Too many people equate the free market with big business doing whatever it wants, but that is not the free market. Unconstitutional taxpayer funded bailouts are what allow giant corporations to run roughshod over the economy. The free market is what puts them out of business when they misbehave.

The free market is you and your neighbors working hard to produce what you produce, and exchanging goods and services voluntarily, in mutually agreeable arrangements. The free market is about respecting property rights and contracts. It is not about building up oligarchs and monopolies and confiscatory tax theft -- these are creatures of government.

We must watch out when government comes up with interventionist solutions to interventionist problems. The root of our problems lie in interventionism. Trusting the free market is the solution.[/quote]

(http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=175)

As far as I know, the U.S. (and likely no country, actually) has never had a true free market system. But the reason for this is government has always been in the way ("The free market is a naturally occurring phenomenon"). The economy was in much better shape back when there was less government interference (and that socialism you fellas are always hyping? Check out Europe - they've spent themselves into the gutter, plus there are several near-police states over there - corporatism is sending us in the same direction).

We've had several true communism systems, however (the Soviet Union being the first). That is what happens when there is ONLY government.

There is no way for there to be the "right" rulers of a flawed system. Ron Paul wants to change the system to what the Founding Fathers intended (they fought for independence from tyranny - they had their flaws, but I think people with a noble idea like that must have had a few other good ones!).

P.S. Msut, either argue like an intelligent being (if I'm not, at least I'm trying to), or just shut up. Insults are for losers. (Yeah, a bit of an ironic statement there, but I can't have people walking all over me...)

P.P.S. And yes, I do actually understand Social Credit. It's like an advanced form of bartering. I don't glom onto random ideas without looking into them first, something I'm sure y'all would love to accuse me of...
 
I imagine if you quizzed the average strongly-opinionated American on anything, they'd come back having failed miserably at even understanding the basic tenets of capitalism. They want the free market AND medicare.

0_o

Anyway, you're right about ideal-types. Max Weber wrote about the ideal type as a theoretical starting point to deduce from when making distinctions between types, but would never have dared argue that the ideal type was something that could exist in the real world.

Arguing for "pure" anything is not really worth discussing, because it can't happen. It's very much predicated on everything going "according to plan." The chaos and unpredictability of the world we live in demands that unexpected events occur that interfere with our ideal types to make them less than ideal; a system's ability to maneuver around those events is evidence of its stability, rather than its failure.

People who advocate that the "pure" whatever never happened are too thick to realize it could never happen. They're the people who think love happens like it does in romantic comedies (which is more often than not a simple recipe for a restraining order rather than love, but I digress). They don't realize that ideal types are as real as dreams. The failure of the "pure" is the failure of the purist's shortsightedness and naivete, and not the failure of those nuances (i.e., the things that make the ideal type 'unpure').

Short version: ChickenDude doesn't realize that waiting for a "pure free market" is waiting for godot. He doesn't realize that it's a fantasy, an unproven fantasy, and an unachievable fantasy.

Also, by and large the labor laws in place today that keep our citizens safe, well paid, off weekends and holidays, pays them an overtime wage, gives them benefits, and keeps their children in schools and out of factories? You can thank socialist ideas like unions and out-and-out socialists like Upton Sinclair. The free market never did a goddamned thing for you.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']ChickenDude doesn't realize that...[/QUOTE]

Would you mind not talking like a group of mothers chatting about their kids at daycare? :whistle2:x
 
[quote name='TurboChickenMan']Would you mind not talking like a group of mothers chatting about their kids at daycare? :whistle2:x[/QUOTE]

You are new here aren't you?
 
[quote name='TurboChickenMan']Would you mind not talking like a group of mothers chatting about their kids at daycare? :whistle2:x[/QUOTE]

aww, pobrecito. i thought you wanted to discuss ideas like grown ups, yet all you quote from my post is a slur.

get over it if you wanna move up from the card table to where the grown ups sit, ok?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']aww, pobrecito. i thought you wanted to discuss ideas like grown ups, yet all you quote from my post is a slur.

get over it if you wanna move up from the card table to where the grown ups sit, ok?[/QUOTE]

Translation:

Take Mykevermin's trite, self-indulgent, verbal masturbation on your face with mouth wide open or he'll block you.

Spoiler:
He doesn't like teeth.
 
[quote name='mykevermin'][...] yet all you quote from my post is a slur.[/QUOTE]

From what I've seen, that's pretty much about what his posts consists of. Don't worry about it ChickenDude. ;)
 
Yeah, we're all bros in this thread!

3517jvp.gif
 
[quote name='communist']Also, by and large the labor laws in place today that keep our citizens safe, well paid, off weekends and holidays, pays them an overtime wage, gives them benefits, and keeps their children in schools and out of factories? You can thank socialist ideas like unions and out-and-out socialists like Upton Sinclair. The free market never did a goddamned thing for you.[/QUOTE]

Wrong myke, Lord Ron Paul would say that the government is the reason why workers are not safe, paid less, or not given benefits.

Government creates unsafe working conditions, not the free market.
 
Let's go back to the Enron thing ChickenHomie linked to.

To think that the government caused Enron is the most fucking insane thing I've heard all day long - and keep in mind I saw an interview with Sharron Angle earlier today, so the bar's higher than normal.
 
But unions have never done anything but cause labor costs to increase. Besides, companies treat workers well out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd never take advantage of anyone.
 
Exactly Clak, it's not in their economic interest to treat workers badly. They'd lose money. Patriarch Ron Paul would say the government is the problem here, creating unnecessary regulation. If gov't agencies like OSHA would stop interfering the free market would fix the problem.
 
I'd love to see some research done on the number of mega-large corporations and how they've manipulated the government into creating laws and market conditions that favor their growth.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Exactly Clak, it's not in their economic interest to treat workers badly. They'd lose money. Patriarch Ron Paul would say the government is the problem here, creating unnecessary regulation. If gov't agencies like OSHA would stop interfering the free market would fix the problem.[/QUOTE]
Of course, people would quit any company which treated them badly and those companies would go under, just like used to happen before these damn unions.
 
[quote name='Clak']But unions have never done anything but cause labor costs to increase. Besides, companies treat workers well out of the goodness of their hearts, they'd never take advantage of anyone.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='IRHari']Exactly Clak, it's not in their economic interest to treat workers badly. They'd lose money. Patriarch Ron Paul would say the government is the problem here, creating unnecessary regulation. If gov't agencies like OSHA would stop interfering the free market would fix the problem.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Clak']Of course, people would quit any company which treated them badly and those companies would go under, just like used to happen before these damn unions.[/QUOTE]

Stop. I swear I can feel an inoperable brain tumor coalescing in my head right now.
 
Since everyone is talking about tax cuts right now I think the best place to cut taxes is in the states. I'm referring to EVERY state that charges sales tax on food. We need these dropped period. I'm referring to in the grocery stores as such. It seems absurd to me that you would charge tax on something a person so fundamently NEEDS as opposed to wants.
As for this idea just cutting taxes across the board will fix everything I disagree. In terms of your bang for the buck, people putting money back into the system, it's NOT rich people. Trickle down is a delusion and has always been a load of horseshit.
If you're rich you're likely investing something which will take a comparative long while for the economy to truly see the benefit. You also will avoid spending as much on consumer goods as the average person would, see: buying wholesale.
 
They really should drop food tax. I've never understood it. However, then each product in a grocery store would need to be tagged as tax-free or not in some central computer. Still, I think it's a good idea.

That way, the health nazi's can still tax things like soda and doritos. But there is no reason to tax milk and bread.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']They really should drop food tax. I've never understood it. However, then each product in a grocery store would need to be tagged as tax-free or not in some central computer. Still, I think it's a good idea.[/QUOTE]

It's easy as hell for the big stores, there's no food tax here and it seems to work fine, things are tagged on the receipts and sales tax is calculated only on the taxed items. It might be annoying for some small independent store that happens to sell food and other things, but I don't think it would really be that bad.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']They really should drop food tax. I've never understood it. However, then each product in a grocery store would need to be tagged as tax-free or not in some central computer. Still, I think it's a good idea.

That way, the health nazi's can still tax things like soda and doritos. But there is no reason to tax milk and bread.[/QUOTE]

Minnesota does this. I do most of my shopping at a Super Target and the SKUs are just addressed differently within the POS. Buy a game? Tax. Buy a shirt or a cut steak? No tax. Buy a dozen of soda? Tax. It isn't that difficult to setup the POS to handle these kinds of things. In fact, a buddy (that is a CAG lurker no less) works for Target Corporate and helps implement some of these things.
 
oh come on now! Why end the subsidy that has given us corn syrup as an ingredient in 95% of packaged foods? I mean really, a useless starch in almost everything you eat has to be good for you right?
 
[quote name='nasum']Minnesota does this. I do most of my shopping at a Super Target and the SKUs are just addressed differently within the POS. Buy a game? Tax. Buy a shirt or a cut steak? No tax. Buy a dozen of soda? Tax. It isn't that difficult to setup the POS to handle these kinds of things. In fact, a buddy (that is a CAG lurker no less) works for Target Corporate and helps implement some of these things.[/QUOTE]

Yep, many states already do this.

Another example would be CVS and other pharmacy were each item is coded as eligible or not for Flexible Spending Accounts.

I can buy medicine and other eligible stuff, along with non-eligible stuff, pay first with my FSA card, then it will give me a balance for the non-eligible stuff to pay with a normal card etc.

It's not rocket science to set up the POS systems to handle flagging taxes or other things for each item.
 
We have tax free holidays around back to school time here. Things like school supplies, computers, I think clothing too, are tax free. That's done every year and I've never heard of any complaints from area retailers, in fact they probably like the increased traffic in their stores.
 
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