Girl calls mom while being eaten alive by Bear and her cubs...
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benjamouth
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Killing the bears and the cubs seems a bit extreme.
The Crotch
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[quote name='pitfallharry219']Yeah. I've been on vacation in Gatlinburg before and stepped outside the cabin to find myself in a death stare with a bear from 25 feet. Scary shit.[/QUOTE]
Harumph. In the interest of the general safety of anyone here who hasn't had how to deal with hostile and non-hostile bears drilled into their
ing heads:
Bears are not aggressive animals. Not to say that they can't be aggressive, but it's just not part of their nature, and no, a gun is not your best defence from a bear attack.
There are two basic reasons for a bear attack: hunger and defence of self/cubs. There are also two god damn important distinctions to make when it comes to the type of bear: black bear and brown bear (which the one in the story was).
Hungry bears are the aggressive ones. Most dangerous bear you could ever encounter is a starving juvenile. If it's too small and weak and it's getting pushed out of territory by bigger, stronger, healthier bears, it'll get desperate and stupid. Get desperate and stupid enough, and that bear may just decide that a human is worth the risk.
If you meet a bear? Talk in a calm, loud voice to make sure it's aware of you before you get too close. Look at it, but don't stare it down. Back away and leave it an avenue of escape, because odds are, escape is all it really wants.
But maybe that's not what it wants, and maybe it's one of those hungry and desperate and stupid bears. In that case, it'll start doing some of the typical aggressive bear things. It will often move when you move and stop when you stop. It may make a sort of a "woof" noise. It may make "bluff" charges, wherein it rushes you at top speed only to turn away a few feet from you (they're trying to make you panic and run; you're significantly easier prey with your back turned). In such a case, you want to remind it that you, you're a bear, you're scared of me. Yell, blow a whistle, bang pots and pans. If you have a bear banger (it's sort of like a fireworks gun thing), start shooting it at the bear. Throw things; food, if you've got it, but just throw shit at it in general. Don't run, you, don't ever god damn run, because it's faster than you, and that myth that they can't run downhill? that, they can, and they can climb trees like motherers, so even if they charge you, don't run.
This is where the black/brown distinction becomes pretty important. Now, "black" and "brown" are just names; they can be damn near any colour, even white. Black bears are smaller, with longer noses, and they're more likely to be aggressive. Brown bears are much bigger, much stronger, with less of a snout and a sort of a hump or ridge on their back. They're a lot more dangerous when mad, but also a lot less likely to stick around when humans are about.
So, if the hungry, desperate, stupid bear charges you and it's smaller and has a long nose and no hump, you hit it right in itsing face with the biggest, heaviest thing you have. If you've got a gun, you should probably have already fired it off to scare the thing away (see: bear banger), and that'd work 99% of the time. I usually have a shovel on me when I'm out on my own in bear-heavy country, and I feel safe enough with that and my whistle. bear spray; you'll just get it in your own eyes, you ing moron.
Now, if that hungry, desperate, stupid bear ising huge and has a stubby face and a great big hump on its back, there's a good chance you're ed. Again, shoot him if you can, but don't count on a bullet stopping it dead. Brown bears can't climb as well as black, though, so if you're near a tree - these things run way ing faster than you, remember - that's too small for it to climb but too big for it to knock down, you get your ass on up and wait for it to leave.
Now, you hit a black bear hard enough, and even its stupid, hungry desperation won't be enough to keep it going. It's interested in an easy meal. The reason it's hungry is because it's not strong enough to fight other black bears for territory; why the would it fight you?
Jesus this post is going on.
Anyway, the other reason a bear would attack you is because it's defending itself or its cubs. I'll treat those as one.
Treat it like a regular bear encounter at first. Speak calmly and loudly, back away, etc. And don't get between the bear and the cubs, of course. If it's still being hostile, don't do any of the yelling and throwing and shit I mentioned earlier. Now, if you're getting attacked by a hungry bear, it's better you're attacked by a black bear, because they're the weaker ones, and they're the ones you can fend off. The reverse is true with a defencive attack. It's far better for the defencive attacker to be a brown bear, as you can (and should - hitting a defencive bear in the face with a shovel isn't going to scare it away; it's already decided that it's down for the fight) play dead with those guys. With black bears, you're kinda shit outta luck, similar to aggressive encounters with browns.
Summation! On the bear noticing you: speak loud and calm, back away, let it escape, look at it but don't stare into its eyes. If it's aggressive: make noise, throw shit, look scary. If it attacks and it's a black bear: fight. If it attack and it's a brown bear: shit your pants. If it's defencive, continue getting the out of there. If it attacks and it's a brown bear, play dead. If it attacks and it's a black bear, shit your pants.
Guns? Guns are not the best defence against a bear., until we invent some sort of disease that only targets people not actively holding guns, they aren't the best defence against a single god damn thing, but definitely not a bear. That guy in the story before? He'd been using guns all his life. He'd been in the bush for years. But bravado and planning and all that shit tend to disappear when confronted with HOLY BEAR! You'll drop it, you domesticated god damn pussy, or you'll miss because you have 800 pounds of you coming at you at 30 miles an hour, and even if you do neither, you don't know if that bullet will even do any damn good. Not saying that the gun is necessarily bad - it makes a lot of noise, it hurts like a motherer and potentially kills, and as long as you don't point it at yourself or another person, it won't cause you any harm (unlike, say, bear spray that you just fired upwind). But it's not the best thing you have going for you.
Best defence possible? Numbers. Bears don't like going near humans. Bearsing hate going near two humans. Three? Worse. Four? I don't think a bear has ever attacked a group of four. Shit, I don't know if a bear has ever even attacked a group of three. Maybe. I dunno. Anyway, numbers.
This is a long post.
Harumph. In the interest of the general safety of anyone here who hasn't had how to deal with hostile and non-hostile bears drilled into their
ing heads:Bears are not aggressive animals. Not to say that they can't be aggressive, but it's just not part of their nature, and no, a gun is not your best defence from a bear attack.
There are two basic reasons for a bear attack: hunger and defence of self/cubs. There are also two god damn important distinctions to make when it comes to the type of bear: black bear and brown bear (which the one in the story was).
Hungry bears are the aggressive ones. Most dangerous bear you could ever encounter is a starving juvenile. If it's too small and weak and it's getting pushed out of territory by bigger, stronger, healthier bears, it'll get desperate and stupid. Get desperate and stupid enough, and that bear may just decide that a human is worth the risk.
If you meet a bear? Talk in a calm, loud voice to make sure it's aware of you before you get too close. Look at it, but don't stare it down. Back away and leave it an avenue of escape, because odds are, escape is all it really wants.
But maybe that's not what it wants, and maybe it's one of those hungry and desperate and stupid bears. In that case, it'll start doing some of the typical aggressive bear things. It will often move when you move and stop when you stop. It may make a sort of a "woof" noise. It may make "bluff" charges, wherein it rushes you at top speed only to turn away a few feet from you (they're trying to make you panic and run; you're significantly easier prey with your back turned). In such a case, you want to remind it that
you, you're a bear, you're scared of me. Yell, blow a whistle, bang pots and pans. If you have a bear banger (it's sort of like a fireworks gun thing), start shooting it at the bear. Throw things; food, if you've got it, but just throw shit at it in general. Don't run, you, don't ever god damn run, because it's faster than you, and that myth that they can't run downhill? that, they can, and they can climb trees like motherers, so even if they charge you, don't run.This is where the black/brown distinction becomes pretty important. Now, "black" and "brown" are just names; they can be damn near any colour, even white. Black bears are smaller, with longer noses, and they're more likely to be aggressive. Brown bears are much bigger, much stronger, with less of a snout and a sort of a hump or ridge on their back. They're a lot more dangerous when mad, but also a lot less likely to stick around when humans are about.
So, if the hungry, desperate, stupid bear charges you and it's smaller and has a long nose and no hump, you hit it right in its
ing face with the biggest, heaviest thing you have. If you've got a gun, you should probably have already fired it off to scare the thing away (see: bear banger), and that'd work 99% of the time. I usually have a shovel on me when I'm out on my own in bear-heavy country, and I feel safe enough with that and my whistle. bear spray; you'll just get it in your own eyes, you ing moron.Now, if that hungry, desperate, stupid bear is
ing huge and has a stubby face and a great big hump on its back, there's a good chance you're ed. Again, shoot him if you can, but don't count on a bullet stopping it dead. Brown bears can't climb as well as black, though, so if you're near a tree - these things run way ing faster than you, remember - that's too small for it to climb but too big for it to knock down, you get your ass on up and wait for it to leave.Funny anecdote: Couple people that used to work for the same company as me before my time were going through some thick brush when suddenly, BAM! ing grizzly, right there, and it's pissed. One of them drops his gun in fear, and they both get their asses up the nearest tree - one that's too small for the bear to follow, but too big for it to knock over. Once at the top, what do the see? Three ing bear cubs in the tree right next to them.
Awwww yeah.
The bear eventually left them be, and as soon as it was out of vision, they took off. The bear reclaimed its cubs, and everyone was happy. Don't know if they ever got that gun back.
My boss loves telling that story.
ing grizzly, right there, and it's pissed. One of them drops his gun in fear, and they both get their asses up the nearest tree - one that's too small for the bear to follow, but too big for it to knock over. Once at the top, what do the see? Three ing bear cubs in the tree right next to them.Awwww yeah.
The bear eventually left them be, and as soon as it was out of vision, they took off. The bear reclaimed its cubs, and everyone was happy. Don't know if they ever got that gun back.
My boss loves telling that story.
Now, you hit a black bear hard enough, and even its stupid, hungry desperation won't be enough to keep it going. It's interested in an easy meal. The reason it's hungry is because it's not strong enough to fight other black bears for territory; why the
would it fight you?Jesus
this post is going on.Anyway, the other reason a bear would attack you is because it's defending itself or its cubs. I'll treat those as one.
Treat it like a regular bear encounter at first. Speak calmly and loudly, back away, etc. And don't get between the bear and the cubs, of course. If it's still being hostile, don't do any of the yelling and throwing and shit I mentioned earlier. Now, if you're getting attacked by a hungry bear, it's better you're attacked by a black bear, because they're the weaker ones, and they're the ones you can fend off. The reverse is true with a defencive attack. It's far better for the defencive attacker to be a brown bear, as you can (and should - hitting a defencive bear in the face with a shovel isn't going to scare it away; it's already decided that it's down for the fight) play dead with those guys. With black bears, you're kinda shit outta luck, similar to aggressive encounters with browns.
Summation! On the bear noticing you: speak loud and calm, back away, let it escape, look at it but don't stare into its eyes. If it's aggressive: make noise, throw shit, look scary. If it attacks and it's a black bear: fight. If it attack and it's a brown bear: shit your pants. If it's defencive, continue getting the
out of there. If it attacks and it's a brown bear, play dead. If it attacks and it's a black bear, shit your pants.Guns? Guns are not the best defence against a bear.
, until we invent some sort of disease that only targets people not actively holding guns, they aren't the best defence against a single god damn thing, but definitely not a bear. That guy in the story before? He'd been using guns all his life. He'd been in the bush for years. But bravado and planning and all that shit tend to disappear when confronted with HOLY BEAR! You'll drop it, you domesticated god damn pussy, or you'll miss because you have 800 pounds of you coming at you at 30 miles an hour, and even if you do neither, you don't know if that bullet will even do any damn good. Not saying that the gun is necessarily bad - it makes a lot of noise, it hurts like a motherer and potentially kills, and as long as you don't point it at yourself or another person, it won't cause you any harm (unlike, say, bear spray that you just fired upwind). But it's not the best thing you have going for you.Best defence possible? Numbers. Bears don't like going near humans. Bears
ing hate going near two humans. Three? Worse. Four? I don't think a bear has ever attacked a group of four. Shit, I don't know if a bear has ever even attacked a group of three. Maybe. I dunno. Anyway, numbers.This is a long post.
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metaphysicalstyles
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Post #57 should be produced as a unedited pamphlet and handed out at State Parks.
The Crotch
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[quote name='Trakan']Interesting. What is your job may I ask? Also, is the numbers game shit all for defense against a hungry bear like in the story?[/QUOTE]
I am a tree planter, a job which I understand does not exist in the United States. I am paid a few cents (between 11 and 22, generally; shit adds up when you're doing thousands a day) per tree to reforest clearcut areas. Hence the shovel I mentioned I always carry with me when I'm out alone. I work primarily in northern Alberta and the rocky mountains near the US border. For the duration of the season, I live in a camp in the bush near the cutblocks on which I will be working. This last season (which ended about a week ago) was the most black bear heavy year I've yet worked, possibly because so many were displaced by recent forest fires in the north. Around camp, around our helicopter staging, in the cutblocks... damn things were everywhere.
Numbers are the absolute best thing you can have on your side when confronted with a hungry bear. Even in large numbers, though, they may hang around and watch you. I remember a bunch of us - 15, maybe? - standing around yelling at a bear that was getting too close to camp, and the scrawny bastard just sat there until the dogs caught wind of him. Bears hate dogs. I can't imagine a dog doing all that well in a fight, but again, bears aren't really interested in fighting, unless they're actually defending something (cubs).
The major complicating factor in that story is that the bear was both hungry and had cubs. Normally, playing dead is a bid to get the bear to ignore you as a non-threat, but in such a situation, you're gambling on it not also being on the peckish side. In that case, numbers or guns are about all you can count on.
EDIT: And I shouldn't have to say this, but food in a tent? Silliest thing a human being could do. Nothing with any scent goes in your tent. Food, drink, shampoo, a big tub of grease... just don't have it in or around your tent, yeah?
I am a tree planter, a job which I understand does not exist in the United States. I am paid a few cents (between 11 and 22, generally; shit adds up when you're doing thousands a day) per tree to reforest clearcut areas. Hence the shovel I mentioned I always carry with me when I'm out alone. I work primarily in northern Alberta and the rocky mountains near the US border. For the duration of the season, I live in a camp in the bush near the cutblocks on which I will be working. This last season (which ended about a week ago) was the most black bear heavy year I've yet worked, possibly because so many were displaced by recent forest fires in the north. Around camp, around our helicopter staging, in the cutblocks... damn things were everywhere.
Numbers are the absolute best thing you can have on your side when confronted with a hungry bear. Even in large numbers, though, they may hang around and watch you. I remember a bunch of us - 15, maybe? - standing around yelling at a bear that was getting too close to camp, and the scrawny bastard just sat there until the dogs caught wind of him. Bears hate dogs. I can't imagine a dog doing all that well in a fight, but again, bears aren't really interested in fighting, unless they're actually defending something (cubs).
The major complicating factor in that story is that the bear was both hungry and had cubs. Normally, playing dead is a bid to get the bear to ignore you as a non-threat, but in such a situation, you're gambling on it not also being on the peckish side. In that case, numbers or guns are about all you can count on.
EDIT: And I shouldn't have to say this, but food in a tent? Silliest thing a human being could do. Nothing with any scent goes in your tent. Food, drink, shampoo, a big tub of grease... just don't have it in or around your tent, yeah?
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Mospeada_21
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[quote name='metaphysicalstyles']Post #57 should be produced as a unedited pamphlet and handed out at State Parks.[/QUOTE]
He should write one about morons standing too close to waterfalls or climbing over protective railings, too.
[quote name='bordjon']And I read it all. Best post I've read on CAG in a long time - maybe ever! Thank you.[/QUOTE]
Ditto!
[quote name='The Crotch']
Best defence possible? Numbers. Bears don't like going near humans. Bearsing hate going near two humans. Three? Worse. Four? I don't think a bear has ever attacked a group of four. Shit, I don't know if a bear has ever even attacked a group of three. Maybe. I dunno. Anyway, numbers.
[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking orgies in parks is good?
He should write one about morons standing too close to waterfalls or climbing over protective railings, too.
[quote name='bordjon']And I read it all. Best post I've read on CAG in a long time - maybe ever! Thank you.[/QUOTE]
Ditto!
[quote name='The Crotch']
Best defence possible? Numbers. Bears don't like going near humans. Bears
ing hate going near two humans. Three? Worse. Four? I don't think a bear has ever attacked a group of four. Shit, I don't know if a bear has ever even attacked a group of three. Maybe. I dunno. Anyway, numbers.[/QUOTE]
I'm thinking orgies in parks is good?
[quote name='benjamouth']Killing the bears and the cubs seems a bit extreme.[/QUOTE]
its necessary though because if they develop a taste for human flesh theyd start actively targetting humans for food. one man eater is bad enough but to have 4 man eaters roaming the woods would be very bad.
its necessary though because if they develop a taste for human flesh theyd start actively targetting humans for food. one man eater is bad enough but to have 4 man eaters roaming the woods would be very bad.
[quote name='The Crotch']I am a tree planter, a job which I understand does not exist in the United States. I am paid a few cents (between 11 and 22, generally; shit adds up when you're doing thousands a day) per tree to reforest clearcut areas. Hence the shovel I mentioned I always carry with me when I'm out alone. I work primarily in northern Alberta and the rocky mountains near the US border. For the duration of the season, I live in a camp in the bush near the cutblocks on which I will be working. This last season (which ended about a week ago) was the most black bear heavy year I've yet worked, possibly because so many were displaced by recent forest fires in the north. Around camp, around our helicopter staging, in the cutblocks... damn things were everywhere.
Numbers are the absolute best thing you can have on your side when confronted with a hungry bear. Even in large numbers, though, they may hang around and watch you. I remember a bunch of us - 15, maybe? - standing around yelling at a bear that was getting too close to camp, and the scrawny bastard just sat there until the dogs caught wind of him. Bears hate dogs. I can't imagine a dog doing all that well in a fight, but again, bears aren't really interested in fighting, unless they're actually defending something (cubs).
The major complicating factor in that story is that the bear was both hungry and had cubs. Normally, playing dead is a bid to get the bear to ignore you as a non-threat, but in such a situation, you're gambling on it not also being on the peckish side. In that case, numbers or guns are about all you can count on.
EDIT: And I shouldn't have to say this, but food in a tent? Silliest thing a human being could do. Nothing with any scent goes in your tent. Food, drink, shampoo, a big tub of grease... just don't have it in or around your tent, yeah?[/QUOTE]
sometimes numbers dont work wasnt there a story a few weeks back about a group of kids learning how to defend themselves in the woods against bears only to be attacked by a bear?
also do the things you listed also work with grizzlies? and if you had to use a gun whats the best one for putting a bear down quickly?
ot a bit but have any of you seen that comic sea bear and land shark? all this bear talk kind of got me to thinking about that.
all this bear talk also has me thinking of that anthony hopkins movie where the bear at the black guy in the wheelchair from oz and kept chasing after him and the shadow who had been nailing his model wife. its a great film.
Numbers are the absolute best thing you can have on your side when confronted with a hungry bear. Even in large numbers, though, they may hang around and watch you. I remember a bunch of us - 15, maybe? - standing around yelling at a bear that was getting too close to camp, and the scrawny bastard just sat there until the dogs caught wind of him. Bears hate dogs. I can't imagine a dog doing all that well in a fight, but again, bears aren't really interested in fighting, unless they're actually defending something (cubs).
The major complicating factor in that story is that the bear was both hungry and had cubs. Normally, playing dead is a bid to get the bear to ignore you as a non-threat, but in such a situation, you're gambling on it not also being on the peckish side. In that case, numbers or guns are about all you can count on.
EDIT: And I shouldn't have to say this, but food in a tent? Silliest thing a human being could do. Nothing with any scent goes in your tent. Food, drink, shampoo, a big tub of grease... just don't have it in or around your tent, yeah?[/QUOTE]
sometimes numbers dont work wasnt there a story a few weeks back about a group of kids learning how to defend themselves in the woods against bears only to be attacked by a bear?
also do the things you listed also work with grizzlies? and if you had to use a gun whats the best one for putting a bear down quickly?
ot a bit but have any of you seen that comic sea bear and land shark? all this bear talk kind of got me to thinking about that.
all this bear talk also has me thinking of that anthony hopkins movie where the bear at the black guy in the wheelchair from oz and kept chasing after him and the shadow who had been nailing his model wife. its a great film.
confoosious
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[quote name='lokizz']its necessary though because if they develop a taste for human flesh theyd start actively targetting humans for food. one man eater is bad enough but to have 4 man eaters roaming the woods would be very bad.[/QUOTE]
ooooh ohhh here she comes. watch out boy she'll chew you up. ohhhhh ohhh here she comes.
ooooh ohhh here she comes. watch out boy she'll chew you up. ohhhhh ohhh here she comes.
The Crotch
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[quote name='Mospeada_21']I'm thinking orgies in parks is good?[/QUOTE]
See, orgies tend to be very noisy, and bears hate noise...
[quote name='lokizz']sometimes numbers dont work wasnt there a story a few weeks back about a group of kids learning how to defend themselves in the woods against bears only to be attacked by a bear?[/quote]
You mean this one: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/bear-attack-new-jersey_n_918191.html?
Heh. That's the problem with retractions, of course. And even besides that, they were all asleep at the time the bear visited-but-didn't-attack-them.
[quote name='lokizz'] also do the things you listed also work with grizzlies?[/quote]
Grizzlies are brown bears. Follow that section of advice with them.
[quote name='lokizz']and if you had to use a gun whats the best one for putting a bear down quickly? [/quote]
Hah. Sorry, I don't do hunting advice. I'll just ask you to remember that the type of bullet matters as much as the gun and that brown bears (including grizzlies) take a lot more to bring down than black bears.
See, orgies tend to be very noisy, and bears hate noise...
[quote name='lokizz']sometimes numbers dont work wasnt there a story a few weeks back about a group of kids learning how to defend themselves in the woods against bears only to be attacked by a bear?[/quote]
You mean this one: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/04/bear-attack-new-jersey_n_918191.html?
Heh. That's the problem with retractions, of course. And even besides that, they were all asleep at the time the bear visited-but-didn't-attack-them.
[quote name='lokizz'] also do the things you listed also work with grizzlies?[/quote]
Grizzlies are brown bears. Follow that section of advice with them.
[quote name='lokizz']and if you had to use a gun whats the best one for putting a bear down quickly? [/quote]
Hah. Sorry, I don't do hunting advice. I'll just ask you to remember that the type of bullet matters as much as the gun and that brown bears (including grizzlies) take a lot more to bring down than black bears.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='The Crotch']This is a long post.[/QUOTE]
While I appreciate the information you're trying to pass along, it comes off incredibly brash and self-righteous. Any way you spin the encounter, it's going to be a panic situation...PERIOD. I agree 100% that in such a situation a person could drop their gun, aim poorly, or forget how to use a gun entirely. But your alternative solution of "assess if it's a bear with a short/long snout, hump/no hump, is acting hungry, defensive, aggressive, etc. can be just as easily (if not more likely) forgotten when you're freaking out.
Oh, also, let it charge at you, don't run, and try to hit it in the face with a shovel. No big deal. I completely understand the reasoning behind these suggestions, but they go against human instinct. Condemning and judging people for not being able to follow them is a harsh and somewhat unrealistic. Yes, the ideal response is don't panic...but that's easier said than done. I would argue that 99% of people would not just stand there and let a bear charge at them. If they had a gun, they'd be shooting it. If they didn't have a gun, they'd probably run. I don't dispute the information you give. But the way you present it just seems arrogant. It's like the kind of person who thinks he could disarm a mugger with no problem. It's easy to talk big until you're put in that situation.
EDIT - Just want to say the above was written after your first post on the subject. Your follow up post was a little less aggressive/" you, don't be dumb", haha. (Maybe you were hungry when you made the first post). Good info.
While I appreciate the information you're trying to pass along, it comes off incredibly brash and self-righteous. Any way you spin the encounter, it's going to be a panic situation...PERIOD. I agree 100% that in such a situation a person could drop their gun, aim poorly, or forget how to use a gun entirely. But your alternative solution of "assess if it's a bear with a short/long snout, hump/no hump, is acting hungry, defensive, aggressive, etc. can be just as easily (if not more likely) forgotten when you're freaking out.
Oh, also, let it charge at you, don't run, and try to hit it in the face with a shovel. No big deal. I completely understand the reasoning behind these suggestions, but they go against human instinct. Condemning and judging people for not being able to follow them is a harsh and somewhat unrealistic. Yes, the ideal response is don't panic...but that's easier said than done. I would argue that 99% of people would not just stand there and let a bear charge at them. If they had a gun, they'd be shooting it. If they didn't have a gun, they'd probably run. I don't dispute the information you give. But the way you present it just seems arrogant. It's like the kind of person who thinks he could disarm a mugger with no problem. It's easy to talk big until you're put in that situation.
EDIT - Just want to say the above was written after your first post on the subject. Your follow up post was a little less aggressive/"
you, don't be dumb", haha. (Maybe you were hungry when you made the first post). Good info.
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I thought the rule was make yourself small / curl up in a ball and don't make noise if a bear is about to you up, and make yourself appear bigger and make shit tons of noise if you're endangered by a wild cat (mountain lions, etc.).
I've also heard you should shut the up and be quiet if moose are around and searching for food and you don't want them to charge you.
you up, and make yourself appear bigger and make shit tons of noise if you're endangered by a wild cat (mountain lions, etc.).I've also heard you should shut the
up and be quiet if moose are around and searching for food and you don't want them to charge you.
Mr Unoriginal
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Heading to Yellowstone on Saturday, I'll make sure to read this thread over once more before I leave.
The bear killed the step father first the girl must have heard the attack taking place why didn't she run away? In the story she says the bear later came back with its cubs and ate her and when help arrived it was eating the guy again. I mean it's entirely possible the bear killed the guy in one hit as they can swing with massive force and then caught the girl off guard I suppose. But usually the bear will kill the prey first which is why I've also been taught to play dead if a bear does get me. Bears are pretty common where I live and I see bears all the time in the summer and they don't like loud noises and will usually go away if you make some banging rocks together or firing a gun in the air; unless you run away as someone's post mentioned earlier I was taught from a child never just turn and run from a bear or your most likely dead as they will then see you as prey even if the bear isn't exactly hungry. Sometimes they don't care though and won't go away last summer one was just chilling in my back yard rolling around in the grass and laying down and it wouldn't leave our cat was even outside near it and it didn't attack or anything. I ended up just pepper spraying the bear from a back window and it left after that which is what the police or conservation officers usually do unless it's an aggressive bear which usually just get shot. They sell special bear version pepper spray too which if you live anywhere that bears may be present and you enjoy the outdoors it's worth picking up some.
[quote name='lokizz']sometimes numbers dont work wasnt there a story a few weeks back about a group of kids learning how to defend themselves in the woods against bears only to be attacked by a bear?
also do the things you listed also work with grizzlies? and if you had to use a gun whats the best one for putting a bear down quickly?
ot a bit but have any of you seen that comic sea bear and land shark? all this bear talk kind of got me to thinking about that.
all this bear talk also has me thinking of that anthony hopkins movie where the bear at the black guy in the wheelchair from oz and kept chasing after him and the shadow who had been nailing his model wife. its a great film.[/QUOTE]
That's The Edge. Doesn't anyone read my posts?
also do the things you listed also work with grizzlies? and if you had to use a gun whats the best one for putting a bear down quickly?
ot a bit but have any of you seen that comic sea bear and land shark? all this bear talk kind of got me to thinking about that.
all this bear talk also has me thinking of that anthony hopkins movie where the bear at the black guy in the wheelchair from oz and kept chasing after him and the shadow who had been nailing his model wife. its a great film.[/QUOTE]
That's The Edge. Doesn't anyone read my posts?
[quote name='n8rockerasu']I don't dispute the information you give. But the way you present it just seems arrogant.[/QUOTE]
I didn't find it "arrogant" at all. It was info coming from someone who knows what they're talking about and is telling you for your own good. That's like saying a drill instructor is arrogant because he is forceful and "mean" when telling you things you need to know for your own good when you first join the corps. If you can't deal with it, that's an insecurity you'll have to get over.
I didn't find it "arrogant" at all. It was info coming from someone who knows what they're talking about and is telling you for your own good. That's like saying a drill instructor is arrogant because he is forceful and "mean" when telling you things you need to know for your own good when you first join the corps. If you can't deal with it, that's an insecurity you'll have to get over.
Lyricsborn
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Suprised Gargus hasnt given us his wise input.
crushtopher
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If a bear wants to eat you, it will eat you, regardless of what you do. Like the story says, this wasn't the first attack that has been reported and the bears are considered starving and more likely to attack people. So, while that ridiculously long post had some valid points, it doesn't always work out that way. The guy is a tree planter, not a bear expert of any kind and everything he said could be found online. Best post ever? Not even close.
The Crotch
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If a brown bear wants to eat you, and you are alone or in a very small group, yeah, you're basically ed.
As I said in the long-ass post earlier. What's the problem?
[quote name='n8rockerasu']It's like the kind of person who thinks he could disarm a mugger with no problem. It's easy to talk big until you're put in that situation.[/QUOTE]
The specific reason I posted in the manner I did was because of this. There had already been a few posts in the thread along the lines of, "Carry a gun, geeze." I wanted, above all else, to discourage that attitude.
Not that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is necessarily a bad thing in the wild, but it doesn't make you superman.
ed.As I said in the long-ass post earlier. What's the problem?
[quote name='n8rockerasu']It's like the kind of person who thinks he could disarm a mugger with no problem. It's easy to talk big until you're put in that situation.[/QUOTE]
The specific reason I posted in the manner I did was because of this. There had already been a few posts in the thread along the lines of, "Carry a gun, geeze." I wanted, above all else, to discourage that attitude.
Not that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is necessarily a bad thing in the wild, but it doesn't make you superman.
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='KaneRobot']I didn't find it "arrogant" at all. It was info coming from someone who knows what they're talking about and is telling you for your own good. That's like saying a drill instructor is arrogant because he is forceful and "mean" when telling you things you need to know for your own good when you first join the corps. If you can't deal with it, that's an insecurity you'll have to get over.[/QUOTE]
That logic only works if you are The Crotch's bitch. If that's the argument you want to make, I guess good for you. Like I said though, his initial post just made it sound like he was an anti-gun nut telling us "all we need to do" is hit the bear in the face with a shovel (which in my opinion is really just as difficult as shooting the bear). The second post clarified his stance a bit better, and actually gave some of his background in the area. I can respect that.
[quote name='The Crotch']The specific reason I posted in the manner I did was because of this. There had already been a few posts in the thread along the lines of, "Carry a gun, geeze." I wanted, above all else, to discourage that attitude.
Not that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is necessarily a bad thing in the wild, but it doesn't make you superman.[/QUOTE]
No, I hear you. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I'd trust my ability to shoot at a bear more than my ability to stand there and hit it in the face with a shovel. Though, ideally, I'd have to say I'd rather have to do neither.
That logic only works if you are The Crotch's bitch. If that's the argument you want to make, I guess good for you. Like I said though, his initial post just made it sound like he was an anti-gun nut telling us "all we need to do" is hit the bear in the face with a shovel (which in my opinion is really just as difficult as shooting the bear). The second post clarified his stance a bit better, and actually gave some of his background in the area. I can respect that.
[quote name='The Crotch']The specific reason I posted in the manner I did was because of this. There had already been a few posts in the thread along the lines of, "Carry a gun, geeze." I wanted, above all else, to discourage that attitude.
Not that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is necessarily a bad thing in the wild, but it doesn't make you superman.[/QUOTE]
No, I hear you. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I'd trust my ability to shoot at a bear more than my ability to stand there and hit it in the face with a shovel. Though, ideally, I'd have to say I'd rather have to do neither.
Soodmeg
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[quote name='lokizz']its necessary though because if they develop a taste for human flesh theyd start actively targetting humans for food. one man eater is bad enough but to have 4 man eaters roaming the woods would be very bad.[/QUOTE]
Is this really true? I have almost wondered what the hell the reasoning for this was.
Is this really true? I have almost wondered what the hell the reasoning for this was.
Friend of Sonic
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What do we do with zombie bears?
[quote name='Soodmeg']Is this really true? I have almost wondered what the hell the reasoning for this was.[/QUOTE]
in every case ive heard of a bear killing a human they kill the bear. if feeding bears causes them to over time lose their fear of people imagine when a bear eats a person. i still dont get how they are afraid of us anyway but once they lose all fear theres nothing there to stop them from picking people off.
in every case ive heard of a bear killing a human they kill the bear. if feeding bears causes them to over time lose their fear of people imagine when a bear eats a person. i still dont get how they are afraid of us anyway but once they lose all fear theres nothing there to stop them from picking people off.
The Crotch
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[quote name='n8rockerasu']If that's the argument you want to make, I guess good for you. Like I said though, his initial post just made it sound like he was an anti-gun nut telling us "all we need to do" is hit the bear in the face with a shovel (which in my opinion is really just as difficult as shooting the bear).[/quote]
'Twould seem I have not represented my position quite accurately, and I would like to clarify:
"All we need to do" is not hit the bear in the face with the shovel or shoot it with a gun or anything of that nature. "All we need to do" is back away calmly. That will cover 99% of your bear encounters while hiking. If you have a bear approach your campsite, making noise (guns, dogs, and especially bearbangers doing the best jobs) will cover you 99% of the time.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']No, I hear you. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I'd trust my ability to shoot at a bear more than my ability to stand there and hit it in the face with a shovel. Though, ideally, I'd have to say I'd rather have to do neither.[/QUOTE]
I suppose there's one other reason I was pretty anti-gun in The Long Post.
A lot of human-bear encounters are fatal. Humans react far too quickly, and a lot of bears die needlessly. 99%, remember, just want to be nowhere near you. So, yeah, some of the anti-gun stuff earlier on stems from that.
You talked a lot about panic in your response, but if I had to condense my first post here into one sentence, it would be this: "Don't panic, treat the bear with respect, and do everything you can to make sure it respects you."
Admittedly, the second sentence would be, "Have at least one other person with you."
Fact is, unless the bear either sneaks up on you (it happens) or you accidentally sneak up on it or put yourself between it and its food/cubs - all rare but possible circumstances - you have a lot of time. Yes, you can look for the hump (though the real difference is the size; browns are severaltons bigger). You can observe its behaviour. Why? Because it's doing the very same thing to you, seeing if you're a threat, seeing if you're a meal. And if you fall into that unfortunate 1% and you and the bear don't just back away from each-other peacefully, well, what can I say? Don't panic. "Sure," say you, "that's easy to say when you're sitting in your home, but panic's pretty hard to beat when it's actively coming towards you."
Well... yes. Absolutely. Especially if it's charging or bluff charging. But any single piece of decent advice I or anyone could give or follow must by necessity start from, "Don't panic."
Or, I guess, "Panic a bit less."
'Twould seem I have not represented my position quite accurately, and I would like to clarify:
"All we need to do" is not hit the bear in the face with the shovel or shoot it with a gun or anything of that nature. "All we need to do" is back away calmly. That will cover 99% of your bear encounters while hiking. If you have a bear approach your campsite, making noise (guns, dogs, and especially bearbangers doing the best jobs) will cover you 99% of the time.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']No, I hear you. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. I'd trust my ability to shoot at a bear more than my ability to stand there and hit it in the face with a shovel. Though, ideally, I'd have to say I'd rather have to do neither.
[/QUOTE]I suppose there's one other reason I was pretty anti-gun in The Long Post.
A lot of human-bear encounters are fatal. Humans react far too quickly, and a lot of bears die needlessly. 99%, remember, just want to be nowhere near you. So, yeah, some of the anti-gun stuff earlier on stems from that.
You talked a lot about panic in your response, but if I had to condense my first post here into one sentence, it would be this: "Don't panic, treat the bear with respect, and do everything you can to make sure it respects you."
Admittedly, the second sentence would be, "Have at least one other person with you."
Fact is, unless the bear either sneaks up on you (it happens) or you accidentally sneak up on it or put yourself between it and its food/cubs - all rare but possible circumstances - you have a lot of time. Yes, you can look for the hump (though the real difference is the size; browns are several
tons bigger). You can observe its behaviour. Why? Because it's doing the very same thing to you, seeing if you're a threat, seeing if you're a meal. And if you fall into that unfortunate 1% and you and the bear don't just back away from each-other peacefully, well, what can I say? Don't panic. "Sure," say you, "that's easy to say when you're sitting in your home, but panic's pretty hard to beat when it's actively coming towards you."Well... yes. Absolutely. Especially if it's charging or bluff charging. But any single piece of decent advice I or anyone could give or follow must by necessity start from, "Don't panic."
Or, I guess, "Panic a bit less."
Though there are plenty of close calls, I know of zero deaths caused by bears in the bizarre little industry in which I work. Wish I could say the same for deaths caused by other humans.
And don't get me started on how much scarier a moose is than a black bear!
n8rockerasu
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[quote name='The Crotch']'Twould seem I have not represented my position quite accurately, and I would like to clarify:
"All we need to do" is not hit the bear in the face with the shovel or shoot it with a gun or anything of that nature. "All we need to do" is back away calmly. That will cover 99% of your bear encounters while hiking. If you have a bear approach your campsite, making noise (guns, dogs, and especially bearbangers doing the best jobs) will cover you 99% of the time.
I suppose there's one other reason I was pretty anti-gun in The Long Post.
A lot of human-bear encounters are fatal. Humans react far too quickly, and a lot of bears die needlessly. 99%, remember, just want to be nowhere near you. So, yeah, some of the anti-gun stuff earlier on stems from that.
You talked a lot about panic in your response, but if I had to condense my first post here into one sentence, it would be this: "Don't panic, treat the bear with respect, and do everything you can to make sure it respects you."
Admittedly, the second sentence would be, "Have at least one other person with you."
Fact is, unless the bear either sneaks up on you (it happens) or you accidentally sneak up on it or put yourself between it and its food/cubs - all rare but possible circumstances - you have a lot of time. Yes, you can look for the hump (though the real difference is the size; browns are severaltons bigger). You can observe its behaviour. Why? Because it's doing the very same thing to you, seeing if you're a threat, seeing if you're a meal. And if you fall into that unfortunate 1% and you and the bear don't just back away from each-other peacefully, well, what can I say? Don't panic. "Sure," say you, "that's easy to say when you're sitting in your home, but panic's pretty hard to beat when it's actively coming towards you."
Well... yes. Absolutely. Especially if it's charging or bluff charging. But any single piece of decent advice I or anyone could give or follow must by necessity start from, "Don't panic."
Or, I guess, "Panic a bit less."
[/QUOTE]
That's fine. Maybe we're just thinking of different circumstances here. To me, "try to avoid the animal" is common sense. I don't know anybody who, when stumbling upon a bear, would go toward it or start firing off rounds like a crazy person (other than maybe a shot into the air to scare it off).
The discussion here was a bear ATTACK. If I back away and the bear backs away, we're good. But if a bear comes toward me, there will be a distance where I'm no longer comfortable with the situation, and I'm shooting it. No questions asked and no apologies. Ultimately, I'm going to err on the side of caution...FOR ME. If the bear wants to be nowhere near me, then don't approach me. I'm not going to stand there and analyze whether it's a "bluff charge". That's freaking ridiculous and would be one hell of a thing to get wrong.
That's the other side of the coin that you're avoiding. What if you're wrong? What if the bear perceived you as a threat? What if she was hungry? What if her cubs were nearby and you just didn't know? What if you swing your shovel at the bear and he brushes it off? No offense, but THAT SHIT. I'm not chancing it. I'm sorry, but your last post AGAIN makes you sound like an anti-gun, "tree hugging hippie" (if you'll pardon the term), willing to spit in the face of reason because you're so concerned about the animal. I'm not advocating inhumane treatment, but if the bear is coming at me, the rules change.
"All we need to do" is not hit the bear in the face with the shovel or shoot it with a gun or anything of that nature. "All we need to do" is back away calmly. That will cover 99% of your bear encounters while hiking. If you have a bear approach your campsite, making noise (guns, dogs, and especially bearbangers doing the best jobs) will cover you 99% of the time.
I suppose there's one other reason I was pretty anti-gun in The Long Post.
A lot of human-bear encounters are fatal. Humans react far too quickly, and a lot of bears die needlessly. 99%, remember, just want to be nowhere near you. So, yeah, some of the anti-gun stuff earlier on stems from that.
You talked a lot about panic in your response, but if I had to condense my first post here into one sentence, it would be this: "Don't panic, treat the bear with respect, and do everything you can to make sure it respects you."
Admittedly, the second sentence would be, "Have at least one other person with you."
Fact is, unless the bear either sneaks up on you (it happens) or you accidentally sneak up on it or put yourself between it and its food/cubs - all rare but possible circumstances - you have a lot of time. Yes, you can look for the hump (though the real difference is the size; browns are several
tons bigger). You can observe its behaviour. Why? Because it's doing the very same thing to you, seeing if you're a threat, seeing if you're a meal. And if you fall into that unfortunate 1% and you and the bear don't just back away from each-other peacefully, well, what can I say? Don't panic. "Sure," say you, "that's easy to say when you're sitting in your home, but panic's pretty hard to beat when it's actively coming towards you."Well... yes. Absolutely. Especially if it's charging or bluff charging. But any single piece of decent advice I or anyone could give or follow must by necessity start from, "Don't panic."
Or, I guess, "Panic a bit less."
Though there are plenty of close calls, I know of zero deaths caused by bears in the bizarre little industry in which I work. Wish I could say the same for deaths caused by other humans.
And don't get me started on how much scarier a moose is than a black bear!
That's fine. Maybe we're just thinking of different circumstances here. To me, "try to avoid the animal" is common sense. I don't know anybody who, when stumbling upon a bear, would go toward it or start firing off rounds like a crazy person (other than maybe a shot into the air to scare it off).
The discussion here was a bear ATTACK. If I back away and the bear backs away, we're good. But if a bear comes toward me, there will be a distance where I'm no longer comfortable with the situation, and I'm shooting it. No questions asked and no apologies. Ultimately, I'm going to err on the side of caution...FOR ME. If the bear wants to be nowhere near me, then don't approach me. I'm not going to stand there and analyze whether it's a "bluff charge". That's freaking ridiculous and would be one hell of a thing to get wrong.
That's the other side of the coin that you're avoiding. What if you're wrong? What if the bear perceived you as a threat? What if she was hungry? What if her cubs were nearby and you just didn't know? What if you swing your shovel at the bear and he brushes it off? No offense, but
THAT SHIT. I'm not chancing it. I'm sorry, but your last post AGAIN makes you sound like an anti-gun, "tree hugging hippie" (if you'll pardon the term), willing to spit in the face of reason because you're so concerned about the animal. I'm not advocating inhumane treatment, but if the bear is coming at me, the rules change.
panzerfaust
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The Crotch has done nothing but make quality posts, chill the out. He even said shoot the damn thing if you feel the need to. At least now, for whoever doesn't go camping with a shotgun, we know what we can do in the case of a bear encounter. And we also know that we're probably dead if we run into a pissed off and hungry brown bear.
And yeah, his advice was practical, whether you're scared to death or not. Some people become freakishly calm in these kind of situations, and it has nothing to do with bravery.
tl;dr -- if it gets in your business, shoot it. if you don't have a gun, thank this "tree-hugger" for saving your life.
out. He even said shoot the damn thing if you feel the need to. At least now, for whoever doesn't go camping with a shotgun, we know what we can do in the case of a bear encounter. And we also know that we're probably dead if we run into a pissed off and hungry brown bear. And yeah, his advice was practical, whether you're scared to death or not. Some people become freakishly calm in these kind of situations, and it has nothing to do with bravery.
tl;dr -- if it gets in your business, shoot it. if you don't have a gun, thank this "tree-hugger" for saving your life.
Trancendental
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[quote name='The Crotch']If a brown bear wants to eat you, and you are alone or in a very small group, yeah, you're basically ed.
As I said in the long-ass post earlier. What's the problem?
The specific reason I posted in the manner I did was because of this. There had already been a few posts in the thread along the lines of, "Carry a gun, geeze." I wanted, above all else, to discourage that attitude.
Not that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is necessarily a bad thing in the wild, but it doesn't make you superman.[/QUOTE]
If you carry the buffalo rifle you can one-shot kill the bear before he even gets close, but you gotta aim for the head.
ed.As I said in the long-ass post earlier. What's the problem?
The specific reason I posted in the manner I did was because of this. There had already been a few posts in the thread along the lines of, "Carry a gun, geeze." I wanted, above all else, to discourage that attitude.
Not that carrying a gun and knowing how to use it is necessarily a bad thing in the wild, but it doesn't make you superman.[/QUOTE]
If you carry the buffalo rifle you can one-shot kill the bear before he even gets close, but you gotta aim for the head.
[quote name='Soodmeg']Is this really true? I have almost wondered what the hell the reasoning for this was.[/QUOTE]
Yes. There are two issues at hand when any animal (especially carnivorous/omnivorous) kills a human. 1) They learn that they don't need to be afraid of humans (pretty much all wild animals are by instinct) and 2) if necessary, humans make for a possible food supply. And #1 leads to more of #2. So once an animal has killed a human, for the future safety of people, the majority of the time they need to be put down. It has nothing to do with vengeance or anything stupid like that.
[quote name='The Crotch']'Twould seem I have not represented my position quite accurately, and I would like to clarify:
"All we need to do" is not hit the bear in the face with the shovel or shoot it with a gun or anything of that nature. "All we need to do" is back away calmly. That will cover 99% of your bear encounters while hiking. If you have a bear approach your campsite, making noise (guns, dogs, and especially bearbangers doing the best jobs) will cover you 99% of the time.
I suppose there's one other reason I was pretty anti-gun in The Long Post.
A lot of human-bear encounters are fatal. Humans react far too quickly, and a lot of bears die needlessly. 99%, remember, just want to be nowhere near you. So, yeah, some of the anti-gun stuff earlier on stems from that.
You talked a lot about panic in your response, but if I had to condense my first post here into one sentence, it would be this: "Don't panic, treat the bear with respect, and do everything you can to make sure it respects you."
Admittedly, the second sentence would be, "Have at least one other person with you."
Fact is, unless the bear either sneaks up on you (it happens) or you accidentally sneak up on it or put yourself between it and its food/cubs - all rare but possible circumstances - you have a lot of time. Yes, you can look for the hump (though the real difference is the size; browns are severaltons bigger). You can observe its behaviour. Why? Because it's doing the very same thing to you, seeing if you're a threat, seeing if you're a meal. And if you fall into that unfortunate 1% and you and the bear don't just back away from each-other peacefully, well, what can I say? Don't panic. "Sure," say you, "that's easy to say when you're sitting in your home, but panic's pretty hard to beat when it's actively coming towards you."
Well... yes. Absolutely. Especially if it's charging or bluff charging. But any single piece of decent advice I or anyone could give or follow must by necessity start from, "Don't panic."
Or, I guess, "Panic a bit less."
[/QUOTE]
I didn't respond earlier because I agree that you sounded a little too angry and a little too anti-gun. But now that you seem to have cooled off, I have something to say. (I can hold my own in an argument, but such an argument seemed futile.)
You gave sound advice. At least, that which I was able to stomach reading through (the tone turned me off completely). I have studied bears. I know a little bit about how they behave. I am a biologist by education, though not by profession. I agree that most bear encounters don't need to be fatal to either party. And I'm a huge animal lover. But we are talking about situations where harm, for one reason or another, DOES befall someone. And in a case that you ever do surprise a bear, despite having more than one in your party (this is not only a "numbers" game, but mere conversation in the quiet woods will 99% of the time scare a bear off), it's unlikely outsmarting the bear at his own behavior is going to help. And if you meet a ravenous bear, especially a grizzly or polar, it's not just unlikely - it's impossible. So in certain situations, your only hope is a high caliber firearm.
That being said, I often forget that so many people have never held a firearm, much less used one. So that is not the solution for everyone, but if you can't bring a person with you who is competent with a firearm, I highly suggest staying far away from bear country altogether (particularly brown bear country). But the reason I agreed with the post I quoted, and not just some random "Let's shoot teh bears, guiz!" post is because RedRingofDeath specifically made mention of a Desert Eagle. You're right about what you fire mattering. But like RRoD said, a DE will put a hole through mama's skull and probably both cubs. It's not just going to make the bear irritated. It's a very heavy "handgun", but because it IS a handgun, it can be holstered and at the ready at all times.
My suggestion to anyone going somewhere like the trails of Yellowstone, is
Pre-trip:
1) read up on brown bear behavior patterns and how you should respond to them. 2) Know the gun laws for the states you are going to visit (i.e. Yellowstone covers Wyoming, Idaho and Montana, all with different laws). 3) Have at least two people together at all times (I never go into the wild alone and without people knowing where I'll be. Even when traveling long distances or to out of the way places in my car I bring survival necessities). If only two of you are going on your adventure, never venture away from each other. At least one person should be competent with and carry a high caliber firearm into bear country (.357, .44, or .50AE - all hollow point should do), and willing to use it at a moment's notice.
During the outing:
1) Like I said, never venture very far from each other. 2) Always store food away from where you sleep, hanging in a tree. This also includes anything like toothpaste that smells unfamiliar and interesting to a bear. 3) Always make conversation while hiking. This will dissuade bears from checking the new smell out and hopefully scare them away altogether. 4) If you do happen upon (a) bear(s), use the info you learned about before embarking on your trip. 99% of the time there will be no danger. 5) In the event that you are about to become bear food, you pull the gun and do not hesitate to fire. Shoot at the skull.
I didn't think a diatribe was necessary. I thought that everything I just said was common sense. But then again, so is "Bring a high powered firearm with you when you venture into bear country". And that should never be taken to mean, "Shoot any big, furry thing on sight." I guess the fact that there are so many bear related deaths is that either it isn't all common sense or people don't have common sense. I vote on the latter.
OT: About your moose comment - I agree. Actually any deer can be more dangerous than people think. Luckily I have never had a near encounter with an elk or moose, but I have with a mule deer. My girlfriend (at the time) and I were hiking a pretty steep trail which consisted of very long switch backs. We had only been hiking about an hour and a half, so we were still moving pretty aggressively, still focused on the climb, not too much on our surroundings (lots of trees, no view). But then we both heard a rumbling noise. She looked at me, and started to ask what that noise was while I instead looked up the mountain. There was a full grown buck coming straight down the slope, full speed. I barely had time to grab her and step aside as the deer brushed past us. One of the scariest 4 seconds of my life! The next 11 hours or so of our adventure were fairly uneventful (aside from the pains in my legs by the end of the day), and I was grateful for that. I never want to see an elk or moose in the woods unless I'm at a downwind, higher elevation vantage point with my sight on the sucker. (I've never been hunting, but would like to go someday...)
Back on topic: I knew of a professor who studies bears. He had a pretty cool wall chart about the different bear encounters you might have and what you should do in each one that was like 6'x10'. Maybe I'll see if I can track him down and shoot him an e-mail to ask for an electronic version of that poster. If I can obtain it, I'll post it here. (And for the record I did just go back and read your entire original post. And my original feelings stand, including the fact that there is some good advice in there.)
Oh yeah:
(If you're still on dial-up, don't click this button.)
Yes. There are two issues at hand when any animal (especially carnivorous/omnivorous) kills a human. 1) They learn that they don't need to be afraid of humans (pretty much all wild animals are by instinct) and 2) if necessary, humans make for a possible food supply. And #1 leads to more of #2. So once an animal has killed a human, for the future safety of people, the majority of the time they need to be put down. It has nothing to do with vengeance or anything stupid like that.
[quote name='The Crotch']'Twould seem I have not represented my position quite accurately, and I would like to clarify:
"All we need to do" is not hit the bear in the face with the shovel or shoot it with a gun or anything of that nature. "All we need to do" is back away calmly. That will cover 99% of your bear encounters while hiking. If you have a bear approach your campsite, making noise (guns, dogs, and especially bearbangers doing the best jobs) will cover you 99% of the time.
I suppose there's one other reason I was pretty anti-gun in The Long Post.
A lot of human-bear encounters are fatal. Humans react far too quickly, and a lot of bears die needlessly. 99%, remember, just want to be nowhere near you. So, yeah, some of the anti-gun stuff earlier on stems from that.
You talked a lot about panic in your response, but if I had to condense my first post here into one sentence, it would be this: "Don't panic, treat the bear with respect, and do everything you can to make sure it respects you."
Admittedly, the second sentence would be, "Have at least one other person with you."
Fact is, unless the bear either sneaks up on you (it happens) or you accidentally sneak up on it or put yourself between it and its food/cubs - all rare but possible circumstances - you have a lot of time. Yes, you can look for the hump (though the real difference is the size; browns are several
tons bigger). You can observe its behaviour. Why? Because it's doing the very same thing to you, seeing if you're a threat, seeing if you're a meal. And if you fall into that unfortunate 1% and you and the bear don't just back away from each-other peacefully, well, what can I say? Don't panic. "Sure," say you, "that's easy to say when you're sitting in your home, but panic's pretty hard to beat when it's actively coming towards you."Well... yes. Absolutely. Especially if it's charging or bluff charging. But any single piece of decent advice I or anyone could give or follow must by necessity start from, "Don't panic."
Or, I guess, "Panic a bit less."
Though there are plenty of close calls, I know of zero deaths caused by bears in the bizarre little industry in which I work. Wish I could say the same for deaths caused by other humans.
And don't get me started on how much scarier a moose is than a black bear!
I didn't respond earlier because I agree that you sounded a little too angry and a little too anti-gun. But now that you seem to have cooled off, I have something to say. (I can hold my own in an argument, but such an argument seemed futile.)
You gave sound advice. At least, that which I was able to stomach reading through (the tone turned me off completely). I have studied bears. I know a little bit about how they behave. I am a biologist by education, though not by profession. I agree that most bear encounters don't need to be fatal to either party. And I'm a huge animal lover. But we are talking about situations where harm, for one reason or another, DOES befall someone. And in a case that you ever do surprise a bear, despite having more than one in your party (this is not only a "numbers" game, but mere conversation in the quiet woods will 99% of the time scare a bear off), it's unlikely outsmarting the bear at his own behavior is going to help. And if you meet a ravenous bear, especially a grizzly or polar, it's not just unlikely - it's impossible. So in certain situations, your only hope is a high caliber firearm.
That being said, I often forget that so many people have never held a firearm, much less used one. So that is not the solution for everyone, but if you can't bring a person with you who is competent with a firearm, I highly suggest staying far away from bear country altogether (particularly brown bear country). But the reason I agreed with the post I quoted, and not just some random "Let's shoot teh bears, guiz!" post is because RedRingofDeath specifically made mention of a Desert Eagle. You're right about what you fire mattering. But like RRoD said, a DE will put a hole through mama's skull and probably both cubs. It's not just going to make the bear irritated. It's a very heavy "handgun", but because it IS a handgun, it can be holstered and at the ready at all times.
My suggestion to anyone going somewhere like the trails of Yellowstone, is
Pre-trip:
1) read up on brown bear behavior patterns and how you should respond to them. 2) Know the gun laws for the states you are going to visit (i.e. Yellowstone covers Wyoming, Idaho and Montana, all with different laws). 3) Have at least two people together at all times (I never go into the wild alone and without people knowing where I'll be. Even when traveling long distances or to out of the way places in my car I bring survival necessities). If only two of you are going on your adventure, never venture away from each other. At least one person should be competent with and carry a high caliber firearm into bear country (.357, .44, or .50AE - all hollow point should do), and willing to use it at a moment's notice.
During the outing:
1) Like I said, never venture very far from each other. 2) Always store food away from where you sleep, hanging in a tree. This also includes anything like toothpaste that smells unfamiliar and interesting to a bear. 3) Always make conversation while hiking. This will dissuade bears from checking the new smell out and hopefully scare them away altogether. 4) If you do happen upon (a) bear(s), use the info you learned about before embarking on your trip. 99% of the time there will be no danger. 5) In the event that you are about to become bear food, you pull the gun and do not hesitate to fire. Shoot at the skull.
I didn't think a diatribe was necessary. I thought that everything I just said was common sense. But then again, so is "Bring a high powered firearm with you when you venture into bear country". And that should never be taken to mean, "Shoot any big, furry thing on sight." I guess the fact that there are so many bear related deaths is that either it isn't all common sense or people don't have common sense. I vote on the latter.
OT: About your moose comment - I agree. Actually any deer can be more dangerous than people think. Luckily I have never had a near encounter with an elk or moose, but I have with a mule deer. My girlfriend (at the time) and I were hiking a pretty steep trail which consisted of very long switch backs. We had only been hiking about an hour and a half, so we were still moving pretty aggressively, still focused on the climb, not too much on our surroundings (lots of trees, no view). But then we both heard a rumbling noise. She looked at me, and started to ask what that noise was while I instead looked up the mountain. There was a full grown buck coming straight down the slope, full speed. I barely had time to grab her and step aside as the deer brushed past us. One of the scariest 4 seconds of my life! The next 11 hours or so of our adventure were fairly uneventful (aside from the pains in my legs by the end of the day), and I was grateful for that. I never want to see an elk or moose in the woods unless I'm at a downwind, higher elevation vantage point with my sight on the sucker. (I've never been hunting, but would like to go someday...)
Back on topic: I knew of a professor who studies bears. He had a pretty cool wall chart about the different bear encounters you might have and what you should do in each one that was like 6'x10'. Maybe I'll see if I can track him down and shoot him an e-mail to ask for an electronic version of that poster. If I can obtain it, I'll post it here. (And for the record I did just go back and read your entire original post. And my original feelings stand, including the fact that there is some good advice in there.)
Oh yeah:
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The Crotch
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Heh. You say that you can hold your own in an argument, Morph, but you forgot to give me something to argue against. I don't see anything in your post I disagree with at all. With a hungry, aggressive brown bear, you either have a means of intimidating it, killing it (and about the only option there is indeed a gun or guns), or you're ed.
[quote name='n8rockerasu']That's fine. Maybe we're just thinking of different circumstances here. To me, "try to avoid the animal" is common sense. I don't know anybody who, when stumbling upon a bear, would go toward it or start firing off rounds like a crazy person (other than maybe a shot into the air to scare it off).[/QUOTE]
Used to be some Eritrean guys that worked with us. One day they told their foremen, "We left a ver small hole in the back of our piece." When the foreman asked why, they said, "There was a bear sleeping there, so we planted up to and around him, but there's still a bit of a hole right where he was."
Of course, that's a very extreme reaction on spotting a bear. The main thing I'm trying to warn not to do is not "go towards it" or "fire off like crazy", but rather, "don't run or display any other prey behaviour"
[quote name='n8rockerasu']The discussion here was a bear ATTACK. If I back away and the bear backs away, we're good. But if a bear comes toward me, there will be a distance where I'm no longer comfortable with the situation, and I'm shooting it. No questions asked and no apologies. Ultimately, I'm going to err on the side of caution...FOR ME. If the bear wants to be nowhere near me, then don't approach me. I'm not going to stand there and analyze whether it's a "bluff charge". That's freaking ridiculous and would be one hell of a thing to get wrong.[/QUOTE]
And you'll note that I mentioned shooting the bear as a valid course of action in case of charge. A couple times, actually.
That I focus more on "encounter" than on "attack" is for two reasons: first and foremost, the former is about a billionty times more common than that latter, and it's always for the best when the one doesn't turn into the other. Second, there's really not much to say for advice when you do get attacked. Use the maximal force available to you if it matches the situation; play dead and try to keep your neck intact if that's your best chance at survival (which is generally in case of defencive brown bear and "not enough gun").
[quote name='n8rockerasu'] That's the other side of the coin that you're avoiding. What if you're wrong? What if the bear perceived you as a threat? What if she was hungry? What if her cubs were nearby and you just didn't know? What if you swing your shovel at the bear and he brushes it off? No offense, but THAT SHIT. I'm not chancing it. I'm sorry, but your last post AGAIN makes you sound like an anti-gun, "tree hugging hippie" (if you'll pardon the term), willing to spit in the face of reason because you're so concerned about the animal. I'm not advocating inhumane treatment, but if the bear is coming at me, the rules change.[/QUOTE]
I'm hesitant to make the accusation, but I think you're reading what you want me to say as a "tree hugging hippie", not what I am saying as someone who's grown up surrounded by hunting and trapping and who works in the bush (and who has a very love/hate relationship with the trees themselves). In an enormous list of options covering a wide range of possibilities, I include the use of a gun as both deterrant and (a powerful but not foolproof means of) lethal self-defence, and yet I am derided as "anti-gun".
Damn, it's like playing shinny with someone who's turned his net right around.
ed.[quote name='n8rockerasu']That's fine. Maybe we're just thinking of different circumstances here. To me, "try to avoid the animal" is common sense. I don't know anybody who, when stumbling upon a bear, would go toward it or start firing off rounds like a crazy person (other than maybe a shot into the air to scare it off).[/QUOTE]
Used to be some Eritrean guys that worked with us. One day they told their foremen, "We left a ver small hole in the back of our piece." When the foreman asked why, they said, "There was a bear sleeping there, so we planted up to and around him, but there's still a bit of a hole right where he was."
Of course, that's a very extreme reaction on spotting a bear. The main thing I'm trying to warn not to do is not "go towards it" or "fire off like crazy", but rather, "don't run or display any other prey behaviour"
[quote name='n8rockerasu']The discussion here was a bear ATTACK. If I back away and the bear backs away, we're good. But if a bear comes toward me, there will be a distance where I'm no longer comfortable with the situation, and I'm shooting it. No questions asked and no apologies. Ultimately, I'm going to err on the side of caution...FOR ME. If the bear wants to be nowhere near me, then don't approach me. I'm not going to stand there and analyze whether it's a "bluff charge". That's freaking ridiculous and would be one hell of a thing to get wrong.[/QUOTE]
And you'll note that I mentioned shooting the bear as a valid course of action in case of charge. A couple times, actually.
That I focus more on "encounter" than on "attack" is for two reasons: first and foremost, the former is about a billionty times more common than that latter, and it's always for the best when the one doesn't turn into the other. Second, there's really not much to say for advice when you do get attacked. Use the maximal force available to you if it matches the situation; play dead and try to keep your neck intact if that's your best chance at survival (which is generally in case of defencive brown bear and "not enough gun").
[quote name='n8rockerasu'] That's the other side of the coin that you're avoiding. What if you're wrong? What if the bear perceived you as a threat? What if she was hungry? What if her cubs were nearby and you just didn't know? What if you swing your shovel at the bear and he brushes it off? No offense, but
THAT SHIT. I'm not chancing it. I'm sorry, but your last post AGAIN makes you sound like an anti-gun, "tree hugging hippie" (if you'll pardon the term), willing to spit in the face of reason because you're so concerned about the animal. I'm not advocating inhumane treatment, but if the bear is coming at me, the rules change.[/QUOTE]I'm hesitant to make the accusation, but I think you're reading what you want me to say as a "tree hugging hippie", not what I am saying as someone who's grown up surrounded by hunting and trapping and who works in the bush (and who has a very love/hate relationship with the trees themselves). In an enormous list of options covering a wide range of possibilities, I include the use of a gun as both deterrant and (a powerful but not foolproof means of) lethal self-defence, and yet I am derided as "anti-gun".
Damn, it's like playing shinny with someone who's turned his net right around.
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I
Indigo_Streetlight
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If it were me I'd toss rocks at the bear. Then I would start setting stuff on fire. And when the bear charged I'd stab it with a homemade spear and try setting it on fire.
Somehow, if the bear doesn't leave and survives all of this and starts chewing on my head I'll pull the pin on my grenade--sacrificing myself to take out the bear and its three cubs.
BEAR MUST NOT WIN!
Somehow, if the bear doesn't leave and survives all of this and starts chewing on my head I'll pull the pin on my grenade--sacrificing myself to take out the bear and its three cubs.
BEAR MUST NOT WIN!
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