Have the Japanese game makers lost their touch?

[quote name='SuperPhillip']It depends on which developers you look at. Nintendo, for instance, is at the top of their game as is Sony's Japan Studio.[/QUOTE]

This Sony Japan Studio?

Phillip, u so crazy~
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']This Sony Japan Studio?

Phillip, u so crazy~[/QUOTE]
LocoRoco
LocoRoco 2
Patapon
Patapon 2
echochrome
Siren: Blood Curse
The Last Guy
Trash Panic

Those are some great games that stand out on the PSP and PS3.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']LocoRoco
LocoRoco 2
Patapon
Patapon 2
echochrome
Siren: Blood Curse
The Last Guy
Trash Panic

Those are some great games that stand out on the PSP and PS3.[/QUOTE]

Frisky, I know you love Sony-sama, but those are not by any definition "great."
 
[quote name='62t']I think in the end that Western games are more standardize with difficulty. For Japanese games there aren't. Fire Emblem and Tales of Vesperia allow you to choice difficulty and very playable at easy. Heck you can change the difficulty at anytime in Tales of Vesperia so you can lower it for a difficult boss. And in new Mario Galaxy the Cosmic Guide will actually get the star for you if you get stuck. I dont think any Western games have the reach the point where it will complete the game for you.[/QUOTE]


For sure. Like anything it's not totally black and white. It's just that most every western game has changeable difficulty. While many (but by no means all) Japanese games do not, or are still very tough on lower levels etc.

But there are hard western games and easy Japanese games as well for sure.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']Frisky, I know you love Sony-sama, but those are not by any definition "great."[/QUOTE]
I know you're a troll, but they've reviewed well and plenty of people have enjoyed them. Whether you personally liked them or not, you'd have to at least be able to agree that they're unique and interesting games that try something different from the norm that are usually available on the PSP or PSN.
 
[quote name='TH']Wow.. Thanks for all the replies.

My girl is a bit happier to see it's just not her seeing this. See, all of this came about cuz FF13 nearly brought her to tears. She nearly broke the controller as she was very upset not able to pass the 2nd or 3rd gestalt encounters for more than 10+ times. She's a huge fan of all the previous FFs. She couldn't figure out why SE designed the game where the REQUIRED gestalt fights are so damn HARD. She just wanted to continue the story and see the ending. There should be more multiple ways for her to finish the game. The convergence against really hard encounters turned her off. Like she says.. pretty but not fun. I really agree with her.

So to us, it would seem that fun games don't torture you. Games that torture you like Ninja Gaiden are not fun.. they are painful.

And yeah, we do see MSG4 and SMG 1/2 are excellent.. so that's encouraging. We really hope the upcoming Last Guardian and GT5 really live up to the hype. We hope it's fun and not torturous.

1 last thing.. we are curious, do Japanese gamers prefer games like RE5 and FF13? Famitsu gave them really high scores. Or did they feel like us over here in the states?[/QUOTE]

First and foremost FF is not a series. If you can learn anything from playing all the main installments of the FF name you would learn that they are all significantly different from each other. So the fact that your girlfriend finally hit one she didn't like doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. The FF fanbase is the most divided out there and it's precisely because each game is nothing like its previous.

I honestly think some people here are simply confused on what game design is bad and what game design is simply different from what they enjoy.

It's sad that so many people have to bash developers who are simply trying to reach new audiences and try new things.

Yet you call MGS4 "excellent" and hope to see more game design like that. Even as a huge MGS fan myself, I can at least admit to myself that MGS4 was a pretty outdated title by gameplay standards. If it wasn't for that unique Kojima personality that all his games have (the crazy bosses, humour, nostalgic gameplay), it would have bombed terribly. So if all you want Japanese game developers to do is to keep your nostalgia high by reusing outdated methods from past games, perhaps yes -- Japan is getting worse.

Also, what does game difficulty have to do with quality?

[quote name='elessar123']One of my biggest gripes is the Japanese action RPGs. The action isn't fun, and the RPG aspect isn't as fun. I played through about 80% of Crisis Core and stopped completely because I closed my eyes and mashed the attack button and moved around randomly and got through 3 fights in a row, including a mini-boss fight. How is that supposed to make me feel like it's not a waste of time to continue? I haven't really touched any Japanese "action RPG" since, because they all feel like that.[/quote]

To be fair, Crisis Core was designed as a portable RPG and I think you if you view it in that light it's an awfully crisp formula for on the go play. And I know for a fact that you cannot mash the attack button past the tutorial area -- you will die.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
I honestly think some people here are simply confused on what game design is bad and what game design is simply different from what they enjoy.

*snip*

Also, what does game difficulty have to do with quality?

[/QUOTE]

I hope my posts didn't come across that way. I don't think that Japanese game developers suck or hard games aren't good.

Just that most Japanese games aren't my cup of tea and that I hate hard games.

But I'm just an old curmudgeon when it comes to gaming, and strongly doubt I'll buy another console after the 360 anyway, so don't mind me! :D Too little time and too many hobbies I get more enjoyment from.
 
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Actually dmaul I completely agreed with what you said earlier about it not being a change in quality but a change of your tastes. Glad to see people be reasonable.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']To be fair, Crisis Core was designed as a portable RPG and I think you if you view it in that light it's an awfully crisp formula for on the go play. And I know for a fact that you cannot mash the attack button past the tutorial area -- you will die.[/QUOTE]

lol I literally closed my eyes and mashed the attack button and L3 (whatever it's called on the PSP). I still have the save file from where I was in the game if you don't believe that I was that far in and was still able to do it. And it's not on easy difficulty either (if there was one), since I never play anything below normal.

But sure, I guess it was designed as a portable RPG, but it doesn't make the other Square action RPGs any better on consoles.
 
Super Mario Galaxy 2 tells me no, they haven't.

See also: Yakuza 3, Super Street Fighter IV, 3D Dot Game Heroes, Blazblue, Deathsmiles, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, Demon's Souls, Monster Hunter Tri

The problem with Japanese game developers is when they try to ape western developers which results in stuff like RE 5. I'd rather they just keep doing their own thing and we get games like the ones listed above, even if they aren't for everybody.

One thing I noticed about everything I listed (except for maybe SMG 2) is that most of these games are pretty difficult and have a learning curve, which is the opposite of what you see in the western games, where games are easier and more pick up and play.

And really, the gestalts weren't hard at all... they even tell you what to do to beat them quickly when you scan them.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I'm certainly impressed than, I died several times throughout that game.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say I didn't die at all... All I found out was that it was mashable even in late game, but it was disappointing to find out that actual skill didn't have as much of an impact as you'd think in that game, which became a turn off for me.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']
It's sad that so many people have to bash developers who are simply trying to reach new audiences and try new things.

Yet you call MGS4 "excellent" and hope to see more game design like that. Even as a huge MGS fan myself, I can at least admit to myself that MGS4 was a pretty outdated title by gameplay standards. If it wasn't for that unique Kojima personality that all his games have (the crazy bosses, humour, nostalgic gameplay), it would have bombed terribly. So if all you want Japanese game developers to do is to keep your nostalgia high by reusing outdated methods from past games, perhaps yes -- Japan is getting worse.

Also, what does game difficulty have to do with quality?
[/QUOTE]

One, I am definitely not bashing SE. I have the highest respect for them and expected more of them as a result. FF is their flagship that they want global awareness for. I just think their design decision was wrong cuz it makes it difficult for new fans to experience the game in its entirety. Comb through the gamefly and amazon user reviews and see how many new and old FF fans have been alienated by this game. I feel I am not the minority in saying this latest installment is less accessible because of it. I want SE to be successful, reach more audiences, and make more awesome games.

Most of you think the game and the gestalts was easy, great. More power to ya. But not all gamers are the same or possess the same style of thinking on how to finish a game. (P.S. I did beat the game so my girl can see the entire story.) Like dmaul say, it was not her cup of tea either after 8 hrs. I felt bad cuz I bought the game for her and she could not finish. U know?

I played MSG4 on my friend's PS3 in 2008 and thought that was an awesome game at that time for its highly stylized visuals and implementation of the action/stealth genre. I liked the fact that I can stealthily sneak from point to point w/o killing if I choose to. Or to run and gun. That's what I liked about it. Its design allows me to do so and still finish the game.

Difficulty has everything to do with quality. A quality game will address the most audience as possible, engage them to the end, and reward them for completion. Do you like to buy games you can't finish, I certainly don't. A quality game for me will balance accessibility to all gamers and have the appropriate level of challenges (difficulty).

Anyways, thanks to you and everyone's inputs (62t, dmaul, j-cart, etc.). I hope I didn't offend anyone with this thread. It's merely an observation and discussion piece. Lastly, I am not trying to incite an East vs. West war. Peace out.
 
[quote name='TH']
Difficulty has everything to do with quality. A quality game will address the most audience as possible, engage them to the end, and reward them for completion. Do you like to buy games you can't finish, I certainly don't. A quality game for me will balance accessibility to all gamers and have the appropriate level of challenges (difficulty).
[/QUOTE]

I can't agree with that. Reaching the broadest audience possible isn't a good measure of qualities.

A lot movies that make a huge box office are pretty crummy for instance.

I don't like hard games. But I can acknowledge that hard games can be of high quality. They're simply aimed at the hardcore gamer niche that plays for a challenge and not the casual gamers like me that just play to relax and don't want to have to practice etc.

Just like a great indie movie isn't aimed at the casual movie goer that just sees a few blockbusters a year etc.
 
I don't think it's so much that Japanese developers have lost their touch as that video games have come into their own in America and Europe. Time was, Japan was the only place video games were a big deal, and in the west they were mostly for kids and nerds. Now, everybody loves video games in the west, so western developers have stepped up to the plate. In the interim, Japanese developers, for whatever reason, have slipped up and not responded in a big way, so they've lost their dominance. It's just the way the pendulum is swinging, someday it might swing back.
 
I will not comment on whether the east has lost there touch. Mainly because I nevertheless really played what I considered games from the east.

What I will point out to you that the game design and style of games coming out may nolonger be your flavor of game. Maybe your tastes have changed.

Mine have, I use to love games like counter strike and quake and unreal tournament. But now I'm all about the single player don't really care about multi player.

Just my opinion.
 
do we actually see the best japan has to offer when it comes to gaming? because of the difference in tastes between asian and american gamers they dont want to waste the money and resources on bringing alot of their stuff over here. cant say as i blame the americans are fickle bitches im glad yakuza came over and i hope they do the same again sans cuts but how much of their stuff does anybody really want to play?
 
They are losing touch. It seems they don't have the resources to do what they're trying to do correctly, that they're sticking to the old formula of what a game should be way too closely (not innovating at all in most games), and that they're trying to westernize their games and don't know how to do that correctly. Those are the major things and then there's other minor issues.

[quote name='panzerfaust']RE5's shooting mechanics and FFXIII's linearity aren't flaws, they are design choices.
[/QUOTE]

I agree about RE 5, and I'm glad someone else recognizes this for once :applause: . As far as linear rpg goes in terms of actual gameplay in the way they did it in FF XIII, I'll have to reserve judgement until I play it.
 
I personally have to input that I think Japanese Makers haven't lost their touch; rather their focus has shifted to the handheld arena and that's ok. Their strong suits mainly were 2d (and now 2d/3d hybrid) anyway.
 
[quote name='J7.']They are losing touch. It seems they don't have the resources to do what they're trying to do correctly, that they're sticking to the old formula of what a game should be way too closely (not innovating at all in most games), and that they're trying to westernize their games and don't know how to do that correctly. Those are the major things and then there's other minor issues.



I agree about RE 5, and I'm glad someone else recognizes this for once :applause: . As far as linear rpg goes in terms of actual gameplay in the way they did it in FF XIII, I'll have to reserve judgement until I play it.[/QUOTE]

It's the same deal, it's designed in a certain way to garner a desired effect -- keep the player engaged within the narrative and action. There's definitely some flaws within the gameplay itself involving some repetitive, dull battles, however.

The linear design and simple nature of the game is bound to piss certain people off, just like how people complain how they can't move when shooting in RE5. Just a matter of taste there.

Some people mistake these things as flaws and instead of clamoring for improvements on enemy designs, battle pacing, boss encounter etc... They cry for developers to take out completely legitimate designs and replace them with what's more suited to their personal taste.

If you could move in RE5 like you could in Dead Space, it'd break the game. If you could open a world map in FFXIII and go raise chocobos whenever you felt like it or go explore local towns and walk into people's bedrooms -- the game wouldn't make any damn sense, they'd even have to write an entirely new narrative.
 
Most people are just using the term "flaw" subjectively. And frankly, there aren't many objective flaws in games besides things like repetition, glitches etc. as something that bugs one person doesn't bug another etc.

Personally I never talk objectively about games, movies etc. I just talk about what I personally liked and didn't like--people that do otherwise take these entertainment hobbies and/or their own opinions to seriously IMO.

RE4 and 5 were fun games, but I'd enjoy them a lot more if they just went full on to an action game/shooter and played like Gears of War. No need for the clunky (IMO) controls when the game is no longer scary or in any way resembles survival horror. So the controls are a flaw to me as they lessened my enjoyment of the game. Doesn't mean they are some objective flaw that will bug everyone that plays, just that I think they still stunk--and worse than in past games since it was pretty much 100% a 3rd person shooter.
 
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