HD Loader (or Piratin' in General): Heaven Sent or Hell Spawn...

E

evenovember

CAG Veteran
As fast as Sony's lawyers got a hold of the ppl responsible, did anyone even have a chance to get an HD Loader?
well i did, and its everything as advertised.
But my question is this:

W/ all the money we pay for games dont we as consumers deserve a break? I am 19 yrs old and well aware of what it is that i am doing (i dont buy for a sec that whole "i will only use modchips for imports" bullsh*t) but even still, having to pay $50 per game (even for the crap ones) dont we deserve a break?

i dont know about you'll out there in CAG Land, but i feel that once in a while, we should all get to take back...

...or mabey i just gots me a guilty conscience...
 
Well, the great thing about the crap games priced at $50 is that you don't have to buy them, and if you did, this is cheapassgamer so you should be able to find it for less.

Piracy is a crappy practice, not to mention illegal, but the means that technology has brought us makes it so easy that the ethics of it has seemed to disappear.

I would say the only area that us US consumers (insert your homeland here) deserve a break is in the silly region protection, and in using the product to play imports. Otherwise, you're just hurting the industry.

I'm not pretending to be a snoot, I've pirated/stolen a good amount of crap in the name of curiousity, but the increasingly dirty feeling I get has convinced me to stop (gradually). The gray area that it appears to be is simply because it's so easy to steal stuff nowadays, it's a very real morality problem in today's society.
 
[quote name='evenovember']As fast as Sony's lawyers got a hold of the ppl responsible, did anyone even have a chance to get an HD Loader?
well i did, and its everything as advertised.
But my question is this:

W/ all the money we pay for games dont we as consumers deserve a break? I am 19 yrs old and well aware of what it is that i am doing (i dont buy for a sec that whole "i will only use modchips for imports" bullsh*t) but even still, having to pay $50 per game (even for the crap ones) dont we deserve a break?

i dont know about you'll out there in CAG Land, but i feel that once in a while, we should all get to take back...

...or mabey i just gots me a guilty conscience...[/quote]About paying $50 for a game, that's what CAG is for. It makes it to where you only have to pay $35-$40 or so for a newly released game. I have not modded any system I've owned and I'm very happy paying cash for games that deserve my money.
 
I picked up an HD Loader. Believe it or not, I have only loaded up games that I actually purchased or were given to me. I cannot be bothered with getting mircocharged to death by the likes of Gamefly or BBV just to collect a hoarde of games that I'll never have time to play. Its probably the same reason why my XBOX mod chip remains off so I can concentrate on my Live enabled games.

Its a fun little device and can enhance your gaming. Load times are decimated. However, there are a high degree of incompatibility problems for which there is not solution other than playing the actual game disc.
 
[quote name='Staind204']I actually like collecting games. When you copy a game you dont even have the original box/case and manual, how fun is that?[/quote]

Exactly. I will occasionally check out a GBA rom because nobody ever rents them out anymore. Since I work at a game store now, though, I don't really need to do that unless we dont have the game.
 
[quote name='sj41']About paying $50 for a game, that's what CAG is for. It makes it to where you only have to pay $35-$40 or so for a newly released game. I have not modded any system I've owned and I'm very happy paying cash for games that deserve my money.[/quote]

Same here. I don't mind spending $50 if I get my money's worth.
 
Piracy is wrong. End of story.
Part of the reason games are fifty bucks is because of piracy/pirates. If a game's not worth 50 to you, wait till it's 40, 30, 20, or whatever it is worth to you.
Your post does allude to other issues [quality of games, worthless return policies, etc.] but there are other, legitimate solutions to those problems. Shop smarter. Rent. Trade. Read reviews, watch gameplay movies. Quit buying crappy games.
If everyone pirated games, then there'd be no money going into the industry, and no more new games coming out.
That said, I don't think tools like DVD copiers or HD loaders are inherently wrong. A tool is a tool, it depends on how it's used. A car could be used to rush someone to the hospital, or to run over children. A gun could be used to fight off a rapist, or snipe from a tall building. If you use the HDloader to 'hack' games you own, or copy to a hard drive to save swapping disks, more power to you.
And yes, there definitely is somethign to 'collecting' a real, legitimate, complete game. I wouldn't pay 400 bucks for FFT non-GH sealed, like on Ebay, but I like the fact that I have the same thing [unsealed, of course, I play my games] at home.
 
I recommend someone LOCK this thread. It is going to be another pointless argument between the Pirates and the game collectors. Let's face it you cannot change each other's minds. I do have to wonder why you would be on this site if you pirate all your games.
 
I do have some PC pirated games...but I feel I spend thousands of dollars on the gaming industry. I own all three consoles, over 60 x-box,PS2,X-Box games and many PC games to boot. I like owning the games but it doesn't bother me to not pay for a few games. I'm not hardcore like modding my x-box and burning hundreds of games...maybe a few PC games or out of print titles as well like NES games that are impossible to find.
 
i have backups of some of my games,which is legal from what i have heard. i own 1 backup for them and if i ever decided to sell them,i would either trash the backup or sell it with the game (to the same person that bought the original).
 
Everything on my PS2 hard drive accessed by HDLoader is derived from an original purchase unit of the game. In an era of $5 blowout sales there is no excuse for pirating games.
 
Part of the reason games are fifty bucks is because of piracy/pirates.
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No its not. Its because development costs are high, and because they can. Its what the market will bear for new releases.

Shop smarter. Rent. Trade. Read reviews, watch gameplay movies. Quit buying crappy games.
If everyone pirated games, then there'd be no money going into the industry, and no more new games coming out.
That said, I don't think tools like DVD copiers or HD loaders are inherently wrong. A tool is a tool, it depends on how it's used. A car could be used to rush someone to the hospital, or to run over children. A gun could be used to fight off a rapist, or snipe from a tall building. If you use the HDloader to 'hack' games you own, or copy to a hard drive to save swapping disks, more power to you.
And yes, there definitely is somethign to 'collecting' a real, legitimate, complete game. I wouldn't pay 400 bucks for FFT non-GH sealed, like on Ebay, but I like the fact that I have the same thing [unsealed, of course, I play my games] at home.
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Have to agree with most of that. I like collecting games, and I like owning the actual game, complete with box and manual. That being said, the industry needs to do more to make it more appealing to own the actual game, like including some artwork, a nice manual, little trinkets, whatever. It won't stop the really hardcore people, but really, what will? It'll make the casual buyer want the real thing.

I recommend someone LOCK this thread. It is going to be another pointless argument between the Pirates and the game collectors. Let's face it you cannot change each other's minds. I do have to wonder why you would be on this site if you pirate all your games.
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If you don't like this thread, why are you reading it? Only thing worse than a bad thread is someone that whines about it, in the thread.

Anyway, I do download games sometimes to see if I want them or not. Why? Because I can, and because I'd rather see it with my own eyes over taking someone elses word for it. I don't care if anyone thinks its wrong or not but I do collect games and I don't keep pirated copies.

Roms are another story. Again, I don't care if you think its right or wrong, but if a game has been out of print for years, and I want it, then I'll download it. I do collect NES/Genesis/etc games, especially the rarer/better ones, but thats only because I like collecting them.

On the issue of backups, I not only think its legal, but that it should be common practice. Discs are fragile, and the game companies don't offer media replacement. Especially if you have small kids that like putting things in their mouths.
 
I am 100% against piracy for any game that is easily obtained.

I have mixed feelings about games that are not being sold as new anymore. The only people you are hurting is the collectors market, and do I really care about it?

So, if you want to pirate a copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga for your Saturn, I am not totally against it, but for new games, either buy them new or used, or wait for a price drop.

I also disagree with the price of games being caused by pirates. First, games have been $50 for a very long time, and I never heard of a big pirating racket on the NES (sure, there was some, but not what it is today). So, big games would not go down in price if piracy was eliminated today. Less hyped games would fall in price, but some are already coming out for less money (like Mega Man Anniversary and R Type Final debuting at $30)
 
I own one and only one copied game and that is Half-life for Dreamcast. The only reason which I downloaded this game is it was never released for sale, thus it is not possible to obtain a legitimate copy. Not to mention I own the PC version as well, so I'm not a free rider.
 
Well... I don't blame people for owning pirated games in some respects. Will Radiant Silvergun ever be released here? You want to play Panzer Dragoon Saga.. but why pay almost 200 bucks for something that had a MSRP of 50 bucks?

If a manufacturer abandons support for a game or the hardware it was played on, and it isn't available new in a retail store... it should NOT be considered pirated. If they have the money to sue, then the manufacturer has the money to make a game available on their website at the MSRP.

I'm really hoping that someday, a court case comes from this. Until that day, we are forced to copy Valkyrie Profile.
 
The only modification I have ever done to any of my consoles is a territory switch on my Saturn. How else am I going to play my copy of X-men Vs. Street Fighter?

EDIT: I also added an afterburner to my GBA but that doesn't count :D

As for console piracy, if the console is dead (meaning no longer supported by the company that manufactured it) then who cares? As long as people are not benefiting financially from something that does not belong to them I don't have a problem with it.

Oh and I agree. Piracy has NOTHING to do with the $50 price point on new releases. It has always been that way.
 
What upsets me is that the HDloader is a great freaking product for what it does LEGALLY.

I really dislike playing my PS2 normally because the load times drive me batty. The HDloader makes such a huge difference in that regard.

I think if they could just fix the freaking DMCA to allow fair use like most other copyright law in the WORLD (including most in the U.S.) then you wouldn't have people like me feeling ZERO sympathy for content providers.

I've bought over 150 CDs, 20 DVDs and 100 games (just counting the current 3 systems...) and still they just assume I'm a freaking criminal because I use HDloader.

So you know what? They can all suck on it.
 
Here's my two cents on the issue.

If there's a game out there that I've been dieing to play, like Halo 2, Fable, Wind Waker, ESPN 2k5, I'm going to buy the damn game no matter what.

But there are those games out there that I'd like to play a couple times or try out that I would never ever buy unless the cost was at $5.

Take Rygar for example. I'd probably have never bought it if it weren't $5, but it was a gem. A really damn good game.

My point is if someone has no intention of ever buying a game, copying, burning or downloading the game isn't going to hurt the industry since the industry was never going to get their money in the first place.

However, if that same person sees a game they've been waiting forever for and finds a way to pirate it and not spend the original money they were going to, then the industry is losing money.

To me, that's how I justify playing pirated games.

I think it's funny people are so eager to blast people who like to copy games, but then they go off and listen to their illegally-downloaded music. There's no difference.

There's no difference in not playing pirated games but listening to pirated music. The principle is the same and the law says you're wrong.

It just depends on what your morals tell you, and my morals tell me to buy the games I want and if I copy a few rentals here and there, not to lose any sleep over it.

There, I think I've spent my two cents now.
 
[quote name='Skylander7']Well... I don't blame people for owning pirated games in some respects. Will Radiant Silvergun ever be released here? You want to play Panzer Dragoon Saga.. but why pay almost 200 bucks for something that had a MSRP of 50 bucks?

If a manufacturer abandons support for a game or the hardware it was played on, and it isn't available new in a retail store... it should NOT be considered pirated. If they have the money to sue, then the manufacturer has the money to make a game available on their website at the MSRP.

I'm really hoping that someday, a court case comes from this. Until that day, we are forced to copy Valkyrie Profile.[/quote]

There have been numerous such cases. Those attempting to weasel their way into access to other's property have consistently lost. The holder of a copyright is under no obligation to make the item in question available for purchase, nor, if it is available, must it be at a price chosen by anyone other than the copyright holder. There are very clear laws defining when a property falls into the public domain. Until those conditions are met the copyright holder owns the item in every sense of the word.

This has been upheld for media properties over and over. Which means in those periods when Nintendo had no version of Super Mario Bros. available at retail this did not allow consumers to copy it for their own use just because nintendo didn't see fit to offer it. Similarly, Disney puposely creates long periods when their properties disappear from the retail home video market to create greater demand when the property is newly published. For those periods in between it remains as fully illegal to copy those works as it does during periods of availabilty.

No, you are not forced to copy Valkyrie Profile. It is a game, a luxury item. Your life will not be significantly diminished for lack of it. You are doing what you choose to do rather than pay the going rate for an item in short supply. Do not attempt to place the blame for your behavior on others.
 
I'm not liking this poll.
9 people haven't copied any games and 17 people have. Why would you pirate a game?
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']Here's my two cents on the issue.

If there's a game out there that I've been dieing to play, like Halo 2, Fable, Wind Waker, ESPN 2k5, I'm going to buy the damn game no matter what.

But there are those games out there that I'd like to play a couple times or try out that I would never ever buy unless the cost was at $5.

Take Rygar for example. I'd probably have never bought it if it weren't $5, but it was a gem. A really damn good game.

My point is if someone has no intention of ever buying a game, copying, burning or downloading the game isn't going to hurt the industry since the industry was never going to get their money in the first place.

However, if that same person sees a game they've been waiting forever for and finds a way to pirate it and not spend the original money they were going to, then the industry is losing money.

To me, that's how I justify playing pirated games.

I think it's funny people are so eager to blast people who like to copy games, but then they go off and listen to their illegally-downloaded music. There's no difference.

There's no difference in not playing pirated games but listening to pirated music. The principle is the same and the law says you're wrong.

It just depends on what your morals tell you, and my morals tell me to buy the games I want and if I copy a few rentals here and there, not to lose any sleep over it.

There, I think I've spent my two cents now.[/quote]

Aren't you being more than little presumptious to accuse your unnamed opponent of pirating music? You're making an accusation of hypocrisy sans evidence.

Your argument doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Numerous reviews for Rygar are available as well as substantial word of mouth in forums beyond numbering online. You had every opportunity to be informed of the game's worth when it was selling as decreasingly higher prices before reaching the ground floor of $5. You also could have rented the game for little cost and made an easy determination for yourself with little lost if the game was found wanting. Large video chains like Blockbuster have arrangements with the video game industry that makes this a satisfactory arrangement for both parties.

If someone has no intention of ever buying a game what business do they have copying it? Isn't this really saying "I would buy if it was really cheap?" Why would someone go to the trouble of copying and playing a game they claim has no value? Isn't this a waste of the time that could be spent playing a good game or earning the money to purchase one? The problem when people rationalize their willingness to pirate lesser quality products is that their basis for judging quality becomes skewed until eventually only a tiny handful of releases are deemed paying even a token amount to obtain. I've seen it happen all too often.

"I'm only downloading this to see if it's any good. I'll buy it if I like it." A year later they're still playing it but a store bought legit unit is nowhere in sight.

If $50 is too much for a game then wait for it to come down. The number of games that pass into eBay's gold mine category is a very small number and in my experience they were discounted by retailers well before becoming solely available in the secondhand market. I got my copy of Valkyrie Profile from a GameStop for $35. This was the most I've paid for a single game almost ten years. It was a disappointment. If it had been given a larger production run there would be much less mystique built up around it. I sold it for a small profit but not greatly more than it would have brought when newly published. Most of these rare games simply aren't worth the money except as collector's items. Radiant Silvergun was good but not an orgasm on a CD. It was just a set of conditions that created inadvertant hype.
 
[quote name='epobirs']Aren't you being more than little presumptious to accuse your unnamed opponent of pirating music? You're making an accusation of hypocrisy sans evidence.[/quote]

Agreed.

Your argument doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Numerous reviews for Rygar are available as well as substantial word of mouth in forums beyond numbering online. You had every opportunity to be informed of the game's worth when it was selling as decreasingly higher prices before reaching the ground floor of $5. You also could have rented the game for little cost and made an easy determination for yourself with little lost if the game was found wanting. Large video chains like Blockbuster have arrangements with the video game industry that makes this a satisfactory arrangement for both parties.
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Disagree. Reviews and opinions do not change the fact that MY opinion is what is really going to count. Renting a game does protect me from spending $50 on a crappy game, but it doesn't save me the $7 rental fee. You can get your money back (or at least free tickets) at a theater if you didn't like the movie or the experience was poor. You can't get that with game rentals. Bad games do not deserve retail or rental fees. Period.

If someone has no intention of ever buying a game what business do they have copying it? Isn't this really saying "I would buy if it was really cheap?"
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No it's not. It's saying "I wouldn't buy this at all."

Why would someone go to the trouble of copying and playing a game they claim has no value? Isn't this a waste of the time that could be spent playing a good game or earning the money to purchase one?
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Because they can. No other reason. Is that logical? Certainly not. But it is the answer.

The problem when people rationalize their willingness to pirate lesser quality products is that their basis for judging quality becomes skewed until eventually only a tiny handful of releases are deemed paying even a token amount to obtain. I've seen it happen all too often.
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Now you are citing personal experience. That's no different than "making an accusation of hypocrisy sans evidence."

"I'm only downloading this to see if it's any good. I'll buy it if I like it." A year later they're still playing it but a store bought legit unit is nowhere in sight.

If $50 is too much for a game then wait for it to come down. The number of games that pass into eBay's gold mine category is a very small number and in my experience they were discounted by retailers well before becoming solely available in the secondhand market. I got my copy of Valkyrie Profile from a GameStop for $35. This was the most I've paid for a single game almost ten years. It was a disappointment. If it had been given a larger production run there would be much less mystique built up around it. I sold it for a small profit but not greatly more than it would have brought when newly published. Most of these rare games simply aren't worth the money except as collector's items. Radiant Silvergun was good but not an orgasm on a CD. It was just a set of conditions that created inadvertant hype.
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Agreed. And in a perfect world, everyone would feel the same way. But it boils down to a individual definition (or interpretation) of morality. Just because the "law of the land" says something is wrong or right, doesn't make it so in the minds of every individual.
 
I see no difference in whether my game comes with a picture on it or a CD-R logo, but I still have yet to make/own any bootlegged games. This is why I like the whole demo thing, play it, and if you really like the game, buy it to support the company who put a great piece of work together. Every game really should have a free demo or something along those lines, that way you couldn't really complain as much about getting screwed over.
 
[quote name='epobirs']Aren't you being more than little presumptious to accuse your unnamed opponent of pirating music? You're making an accusation of hypocrisy sans evidence.

Your argument doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Numerous reviews for Rygar are available as well as substantial word of mouth in forums beyond numbering online. You had every opportunity to be informed of the game's worth when it was selling as decreasingly higher prices before reaching the ground floor of $5. You also could have rented the game for little cost and made an easy determination for yourself with little lost if the game was found wanting. Large video chains like Blockbuster have arrangements with the video game industry that makes this a satisfactory arrangement for both parties.

If someone has no intention of ever buying a game what business do they have copying it? Isn't this really saying "I would buy if it was really cheap?" Why would someone go to the trouble of copying and playing a game they claim has no value? Isn't this a waste of the time that could be spent playing a good game or earning the money to purchase one? The problem when people rationalize their willingness to pirate lesser quality products is that their basis for judging quality becomes skewed until eventually only a tiny handful of releases are deemed paying even a token amount to obtain. I've seen it happen all too often.

"I'm only downloading this to see if it's any good. I'll buy it if I like it." A year later they're still playing it but a store bought legit unit is nowhere in sight.

If $50 is too much for a game then wait for it to come down. The number of games that pass into eBay's gold mine category is a very small number and in my experience they were discounted by retailers well before becoming solely available in the secondhand market. I got my copy of Valkyrie Profile from a GameStop for $35. This was the most I've paid for a single game almost ten years. It was a disappointment. If it had been given a larger production run there would be much less mystique built up around it. I sold it for a small profit but not greatly more than it would have brought when newly published. Most of these rare games simply aren't worth the money except as collector's items. Radiant Silvergun was good but not an orgasm on a CD. It was just a set of conditions that created inadvertant hype.[/quote]

All I'm saying is I know people who've said piracy in the video game industry is wrong but go ahead and download music anyway.

Listen, there are plenty of video games out there that are good, but not good enough for me, in my opinion, to spend the $40-$50 on. Now when and if that game ever reaches the price where I want to spend the money on it, I will.

I happen to be one of those people who like to own the original game, case and manual. But I also have limited money that I spend on games. Those games I buy are either AAA titles or games that I've been wanting and are pretty damn cheap.

There are countless games out there that I know I'd like to play, but would never spend the money on the game.

If I really have no intention of spending the money on the game unless it's in the bargain bin, but I copy it to play it a few times, then how is anyone losing money?

And I've actually played a few GBA roms that were so good that I went out and bought them when I finally got my hands on a GBA.

I don't play copies because I don't want to spend the money on the game. I play copies because I won't spend the money on the game but want to try it out.

If you say there's anything wrong with that, well I really don't care.
 
Am I really old around here or is no one saying the simple solution to trying games while avoiding the rental cost?

Freaking borrow it from a friend. If you don't have friends, that's another issue.
 
DaPhatty,

If you're paying $7 for rentals you need to look for a better outlet. Places like Blockbuster and hollywood video are constantly sending me coupons for $1 rentals and similar offers.

While reviewer don't necessarily share your tastes it doen't take very long to develop a consensus of reviewers whose tastes are at least similar to yours. Thus the value of a site like gamerankings.com where you can see theaverage from many reviewers and see if the ones you favors are out of step with the crowd.

The fact is, if you have doubts about the value of a rental and can't be bother to consult a cross section of reviews, don't rent the game. It's really that simple. It is not your perogative to decide that another person's property is without value and steal it. Sunjective morality has nothing to do with it. It is, in fact, the law of the land. No personal morality overrules that law. You can believe you're entitled to free games but that claim will not make a positive impression on any judge or jury you may find yourself before as a result of your sense of self-entitlement.

If you wouldn't buy it or rent it, why would you bother with it for free? If it's worth investing the slightest bit of time then you cannot possibly claim it is worthless.
 
I don't have a problem with 'backing up' games you own, as long as that's actually what you're doing.
I love the 'shareware' model of software distribution.
I have a bunch of Sega Genesis roms on my PC. They're all for games that I have up in the closet, but just don't want to bother hooking up my Gen for.
Piracy isn't the *main* reason games cost 50 bucks, or even a major reason, [development, franchise fees, voice acting, production,'because they can', etc certainly are additional reasons] but it is *a* reason.
Regarding pirating games that aren't out over here. There are two schools of thought about this:
* pirate it, whoever could bring it over sees a demand and they bring it over, then buy it [I wonder how often this happens, or are the pirates bored of it by then] so pirating isn't a bad thing
* pirate it, then whoever could bring it over, decided that it was already pirated so why bother bringing over something that's already been stolen, so pirating is a bad thing.

This was a big issue with the anime fansub scene.
I think many game publishers are aware of both of these schools of thought, but I don't know which one is primary. And of course it might vary based on the publisher and the property. But piracy definitely has an effect on their decision, for better or worse.

I agree, pirating music and games are virtually the same thing. I don't buy 'music wants to be free'. Music, and games, are a creative endeavor that is 'work' of one or many people. They deserve to be rewarded for their work, based on market demand of their product.

I also think piracy is bad for the pirate [even apart from possibly being arrested/paying huge fines], and for a very selfish reason: It lowers the "importance" or "value" of an item *for that person*. I'll admit, once I found the swap trick, I did experiment with downloading and copying PS1 games. Built up quite a collection of games I would not have paid 50 bucks for. Obviously those games have no resale value [or they shouldn't, even worse than a pirate is a pirate who makes money off other people's games], but they ceased to have value for me [except Thrill Kill, that was the only way to get that game]. It was so easy to get a game, that it wasn't exciting any more. Gone was the thrill of deciding what to buy, saying 'I would like to buy **** please', unwrapping it, reading the instructions, popping it in, and enjoying it. I didn't trade my money/work for these games, so they meant nothing to me, other than time and CDRs wasted. I didn't have to decide where best to spend my money. It got to the point where it wasn't fun anymore, it was more 'work' of collecting as many crappy games as I could burn. And of course with a bunch of games, how do you know what to play?

"Bad games do not deserve sales or rental fees". While I agree with the sentiment, who's to say what's a 'bad game'? I Robot pulled in multimillions in its first weekend, so did Catwoman; both of those were 'bad movies.' Isn't one game company going to start 'charging' its developers if they get bad reviews?
Bad is an opinion. I love the Dead Milkmen, but I'll admit, they're not great musicians. Does that mean they don't deserve my money?
And your analogy falls flat in the long run. Ever go to a restaurant and have a 'bad meal?' Sometimes not even bad, just not good. You probably paid for it [unless you complained.] I pay 60 bucks a month for cable TV, and there's a whole lotta crap on there that I would call 'bad.' That's why you read the reviews, watch the gameplay movies, get a feel for it before buying or renting. If you rent and don't like it, you learn from that. Last time I went to Vegas I lost a bunch of money, should I ask for it back because I was at a 'bad' slot machine? You don't get your money back from Blockbuster if the DVD you rented was bad [in your opinion], either.
 
For the love of Shaq!

Even if you had a system where all the games were given away for free by going to a website and making a request, there'd be piracy of the games. Even if you had a console that was so iron-clad as to be unpiratable (Impossible, BTW) the industry would still cry that piracy is causing them to lose money (because everyone is buying the console that is piratable and pirating those games rather than buy their console). There are also a few other constants in the game world:

A new console will be $300 when it is released to market, a new handheld will be $100. New games for the new console will be $50, new games for the handheld will be $30. Regardless of piracy, existence of DMCA-type laws, or the internet.
 
[quote name='epobirs']
If you wouldn't buy it or rent it, why would you bother with it for free? If it's worth investing the slightest bit of time then you cannot possibly claim it is worthless.[/quote]

Agreed. All that remains is to determine what quantity of your money [which, after all, is time] is the game worth, and try to get it for that price. If it's a truly 'bad' game, it shouldn't take too long. If it's a good game, just find someone to whom it's a bad game, and determine their monetary demand.

To me, 7 bucks a rental *is* high. That's why I don't do it. I wait for a BOGO, 'Guaranteed In Stock', or similar deal. But even then, 7 bucks is cheaper than the 50.

I don't know if I'd enjoy a Ferrari, so I'm just going to "borrow" it and drive it till I get sick of it or until the price comes down. It was sitting on the new car lot for a year anyway, so it's not like anyone's losing money, since it wasn't selling in the first place.
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']
If I really have no intention of spending the money on the game unless it's in the bargain bin, but I copy it to play it a few times, then how is anyone losing money?

And I've actually played a few GBA roms that were so good that I went out and bought them when I finally got my hands on a GBA.

I don't play copies because I don't want to spend the money on the game. I play copies because I won't spend the money on the game but want to try it out.

If you say there's anything wrong with that, well I really don't care.[/quote]

Do you realize what you're saying here? Your argument is that theft is alright so long as it's limited to petty theft. I think the retailer with those games in his bargain bin would strongly differ with that claim.

How can you possible say there are games you'd like to play but wouldn't spend money to do so? What other measure of a game's value is there? Do you buy games you knowingly don't wish to play because they're attractive for some other reason than being a good game?

How is anyone losing momey? There exist businesses whose purpose is to rent out game for exactly the purpose of playing briefly for those who either wish to see it for themselves and possibly buy it or for those who know their interest will be brief and only wish to pay for a short period of access. Those businesses are losing the money. They offer a legal means to get access to those games without the full purchase investment but even that is too much money. This again raises the question of why you'd want to bother at all.

Would you go up to an arcade operator and demand he give you a free token so you can play a game you openly believe is mediocre yet you still wish to try it out? Would you expect that person to do anything but laugh in your face?
 
[quote name='abrannan']For the love of Shaq!

Even if you had a system where all the games were given away for free by going to a website and making a request, there'd be piracy of the games. Even if you had a console that was so iron-clad as to be unpiratable (Impossible, BTW) the industry would still cry that piracy is causing them to lose money (because everyone is buying the console that is piratable and pirating those games rather than buy their console). There are also a few other constants in the game world:

A new console will be $300 when it is released to market, a new handheld will be $100. New games for the new console will be $50, new games for the handheld will be $30. Regardless of piracy, existence of DMCA-type laws, or the internet.[/quote]

Your point?
Yes, crime has always existed, always will. Is your point that we shouldn't worry about it? That because we can't stop it 100%, we shouldn't bother? Because piracy is going to occur, we should embrace it, or at least, condone it?

Child molestation has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Rape has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Plagiarism has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Embezzlement and insider trading have always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.

Honestly, I don't get your point, unless it's as I stated above, so if I'm missing it, please let me know.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='abrannan']For the love of Shaq!

Even if you had a system where all the games were given away for free by going to a website and making a request, there'd be piracy of the games. Even if you had a console that was so iron-clad as to be unpiratable (Impossible, BTW) the industry would still cry that piracy is causing them to lose money (because everyone is buying the console that is piratable and pirating those games rather than buy their console). There are also a few other constants in the game world:

A new console will be $300 when it is released to market, a new handheld will be $100. New games for the new console will be $50, new games for the handheld will be $30. Regardless of piracy, existence of DMCA-type laws, or the internet.[/quote]

Your point?
Yes, crime has always existed, always will. Is your point that we shouldn't worry about it? That because we can't stop it 100%, we shouldn't bother? Because piracy is going to occur, we should embrace it, or at least, condone it?

Child molestation has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Rape has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Plagiarism has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Embezzlement and insider trading have always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.

Honestly, I don't get your point, unless it's as I stated above, so if I'm missing it, please let me know.[/quote]

I'm pretty sure he's saying that piracy doesn't effect the price of games and consoles.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='abrannan']For the love of Shaq!

Even if you had a system where all the games were given away for free by going to a website and making a request, there'd be piracy of the games. Even if you had a console that was so iron-clad as to be unpiratable (Impossible, BTW) the industry would still cry that piracy is causing them to lose money (because everyone is buying the console that is piratable and pirating those games rather than buy their console). There are also a few other constants in the game world:

A new console will be $300 when it is released to market, a new handheld will be $100. New games for the new console will be $50, new games for the handheld will be $30. Regardless of piracy, existence of DMCA-type laws, or the internet.[/quote]

Your point?
Yes, crime has always existed, always will. Is your point that we shouldn't worry about it? That because we can't stop it 100%, we shouldn't bother? Because piracy is going to occur, we should embrace it, or at least, condone it?

Child molestation has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Rape has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Plagiarism has always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.
Embezzlement and insider trading have always existed, always will. I guess we shouldn't bother trying to stop it.

Honestly, I don't get your point, unless it's as I stated above, so if I'm missing it, please let me know.[/quote]


Did I say I had a point? No. There is no point to that post. I'm not condoning any illegal act, and I'm not protecting any industry that uses unverifiable data to make excuses for producing a crap product. I'm not saying that we shouldn't pursue and prosecute piracy, or any other crime. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to draw absurd conclusions from words I haven't posted. Or should I infer from your post that you view piracy as injurious a crime as rape and child pornography?
 
[quote name='abrannan']For the love of Shaq!

Even if you had a system where all the games were given away for free by going to a website and making a request, there'd be piracy of the games. Even if you had a console that was so iron-clad as to be unpiratable (Impossible, BTW) the industry would still cry that piracy is causing them to lose money (because everyone is buying the console that is piratable and pirating those games rather than buy their console). There are also a few other constants in the game world:
[/quote]

You have a fallacious argument there. If an item is given away for free how could anybody volunteering their own resources to distributing it be called a pirate? For example, Microsoft has a few conditions involving liability they want people to be aware of but beyond that anyone can give away Internet Explorer and is encouraged to do so.

If someone has the unattainable console whose software cannot be pirated but fails to produce sales I'm greatly inclined to think some other failing of the market would be blamed. If you claim a great asset for your product you don;t then turn around blame that asset's failure for poor sales.

Also, are you trying to suggest that a console that was completely free of piracy would cry piracy if it was strongly profitable? Sony does very well in this business but does anyone doubt they would implement any anti-piracy measure that didn't impose a serious increase in cost?
 
[quote name='epobirs']DaPhatty,

If you're paying $7 for rentals you need to look for a better outlet. Places like Blockbuster and hollywood video are constantly sending me coupons for $1 rentals and similar offers.[/quote]

Actually, that's what Blockbuster charged me for renting a game. It also happens to be the last time I ever rented a game.

While reviewer don't necessarily share your tastes it doen't take very long to develop a consensus of reviewers whose tastes are at least similar to yours. Thus the value of a site like gamerankings.com where you can see theaverage from many reviewers and see if the ones you favors are out of step with the crowd.
Click to expand...

Good advice. But there is still an inherent financial risk. That's all I was trying to say.

The fact is, if you have doubts about the value of a rental and can't be bother to consult a cross section of reviews, don't rent the game. It's really that simple. It is not your perogative to decide that another person's property is without value and steal it. Sunjective morality has nothing to do with it. It is, in fact, the law of the land. No personal morality overrules that law. You can believe you're entitled to free games but that claim will not make a positive impression on any judge or jury you may find yourself before as a result of your sense of self-entitlement.
Click to expand...

Disagree. Subjective morality has everything to do with it. In fact, it is the root cause of the issue. There is no judge or jury present when such moral dilemna's are encountered. Nor is the DMCA present for review (like anyone would actually read it anyway.) Subjective morality is what helps people asses the value they place on something (in this case games) and then decide what to do next (purchase, pirate, etc.)

If you wouldn't buy it or rent it, why would you bother with it for free?
Click to expand...

Again, because you can.

If it's worth investing the slightest bit of time then you cannot possibly claim it is worthless.
Click to expand...

Agreed. But not everyone places a monetary importance on every second of their life. Losing $50 has more of an impact than wasting 30 minutes of your time. Strange how messed up people's priorities are isn't it?
 
HDLoader is the shit. It's like a party on my hard drive... and everyone's invited!





[PS: I don't use it for illicit purposes]
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']

I'm pretty sure he's saying that piracy doesn't effect the price of games and consoles.[/quote]

Having been in the software business I can state without any reservation that piracy has a major effect on raising prices. For every pirate who would have gone without if they had no choice but to pay there is another person who would have made the purchase if the illicit alternative weren't available. Sales volume plays a major role in determing prices. If you can count on selling a minimum of 25,000 units your pricing is going to be based on what marging will get you to profitability within those numbers, making everything that follows where the serious profit begins. If you can count on selling 50,000 units as a minimum instead you can cut your margin for the sake of reducing price resistance.

It's very frustrating to have a product that did mildly well have a level of direct user experience that indicates nearly 80% of all the copies in existence are pirated.
 
Shit. All this talk about piracy affecting sales has got me twisted. I forgot to pay for SimCity 4 and I played the shit out of it. Time to step up.

EDIT: And yes, HD Loader IS the shit. And no I do not use it for illicit purposes.
 
[quote name='daphatty']

The fact is, if you have doubts about the value of a rental and can't be bother to consult a cross section of reviews, don't rent the game. It's really that simple. It is not your perogative to decide that another person's property is without value and steal it. Sunjective morality has nothing to do with it. It is, in fact, the law of the land. No personal morality overrules that law. You can believe you're entitled to free games but that claim will not make a positive impression on any judge or jury you may find yourself before as a result of your sense of self-entitlement.
Click to expand...

{quote] Disagree. Subjective morality has everything to do with it. In fact, it is the root cause of the issue. There is no judge or jury present when such moral dilemna's are encountered. Nor is the DMCA present for review (like anyone would actually read it anyway.) Subjective morality is what helps people asses the value they place on something (in this case games) and then decide what to do next (purchase, pirate, etc.) [/quote]

Ah, so if the cop didn't see it, I didn't do it. Works great until the day the cop does see it and doesn't view the past number of times you got away with it as excusing the time you got nicked.

If you wouldn't buy it or rent it, why would you bother with it for free?
Click to expand...

Again, because you can.
Click to expand...

And away we go down the rabbit hole. This is one of the variations of the Peter Principle. People are emboldened by each transgression until they finally cross a line and discover the law and the penalties are real.

If it's worth investing the slightest bit of time then you cannot possibly claim it is worthless.
Click to expand...

Agreed. But not everyone places a monetary importance on every second of their life. Losing $50 has more of an impact than wasting 30 minutes of your time. Strange how messed up people's priorities are isn't it?[/quote]

But are we talking about $50 here? If the game is such a turkey it's likely long since discounted well below it's original SRP. (Which may have been a lot lower than $50 to begin with, as are so many bargain titles.) anybody who has paid attention to video game outlets for any period of time knows that things come down in price, including the AAA titles.

I'd been waiting a while for Whiplash (Xbox) to come down to a decent price. It had been holding steady at $30 for a long time. Yesterday I got word on this site that BB now had it at $10. I've good reason to expect it's worth $10 but if it isn't I can easily get most of that back in sale or trade. The cost in my time remains the same without having to justify a minor crime. I've done this many hundreds of times in the last few years. The only reason I'd ever have for resorting to pirated copies is if my priorities told me that my lack of patience for the stores to discount a luxury item put my desires above the law.
 
[quote name='abrannan']


Did I say I had a point? No. There is no point to that post. [/quote]

That's why I asked. I'd appreciate you'd not use that condescending tone when I stated 'I don't get your point, please tell me what it is if I'm missing it.' Or of course be clearer in the first place, or don't make posts without a point.

[quote name='abrannan']I'm not condoning any illegal act, and I'm not protecting any industry that uses unverifiable data to make excuses for producing a crap product. I'm not saying that we shouldn't pursue and prosecute piracy, or any other crime. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to draw absurd conclusions from words I haven't posted. Or should I infer from your post that you view piracy as injurious a crime as rape and child pornography?[/quote]

On your post, I inferred the 'it's going to happen anyway, so don't worry too hard about it.' My examples were simply to say that certain things, while always present, are still wrong. But that was based on my apparently erroneous inference of your post's point. And we haven't argued comparative injuriousness in this thread yet, so your bringing it up is a red herring [and yes, I could argue it is more injurious than rape; I definitely think rape or child abuse is worse, but I could argue the injury level.]

The issue isn't 'making a crap product'. In a free market, crap products and crap companies will die or improve based on its sales or lack thereof. The issue is, does piracy affect game prices? I believe it does have a minor effect on them. The bigger issue is, 'Is piracy okay, or is it wrong?' I believe it is wrong. Just like many other things [such as the things I mentioned] are wrong. In different ways, and to different extents, but still wrong. Not everything is black/white, good/evil[bad], but some things are.

Back to piracy: regarding the financial impact of it, don't forget, not only is there Joe Broadband who may download or copy a few video games for his own use, but Mr HongKong/Russian Mafia who pirates millions of copies of games and sells them. Those definitely have an impact on the bottom line.

There's an inherent financial risk in almost everything. There are virtually no guarantees.
Subjective morality is part of the problem. There is room for subjectivity in many things, but not in others. Piracy is stealing. Stealing is wrong. It may be less wrong, than, say, letting your kids starve because you can only get bread if you steal it, but that doesn't make stealing ok, it makes it the lesser of multiple evils. To say 'To steal or not to steal, this game that I probably won't like anyway' isn't a moral dilemma. I don't know what it is, but it's not that. It's more like anarchy, solipsism, egoism, nihilism--"I don't care what the law is, or that I have no *need* to do this, I'm going to pirate it anyway."

If someone says "I pirate because I'm not sure if a game is worth 50 bucks, and I value 50 bucks more than I value 30 minutes of my time', that really says something about that persons values, self-esteem, and self-worth.
 
It should also be kept in mind that the various publishers' organizations try to keep track of how traffic there is in supposedly crappy products. If something is seemingly popular in the pirate world it helps create the illusion that the product's failure was due to poor marketing or some other external flaw rather than simply being a bad game. Thus piracy contributes to further production of bad products because the developers are fooled into believing they didn't fail on the product itself.
 
being a cag is ALMOST as bad as piracy.

paying 5-10$ for a game does not support the industry at all in any way shape or form.
 
No offense, I wholeheartedly disagree with that comment.
There will always be, and have always been, those people who want to spend less for a product. Clark Howard is the extreme example of this. If *everyone* did it, it would have an effect on the industry, but only the effect of regular market forces; that is, make better products, cheaper, or lose business. There are also those who want to have the newest and are willing to pay full price, and those who aren't willing to drive to 17 Circuit City's to get a game for 5 bucks instead of 10 or 15. I bought a used car last November, it had 16000 miles and was just over a year old. I saved 18000$+ over the equivalent new model. Am I as bad as a car thief?
Buying a game for 5-10 bucks does support the industry. They still get money. That's like saying people who buy paperbacks for 5 bucks aren't supporting the book industry, because they could be buying hardbacks for 25. Either the game manufacturer sees their average price per unit drop, and takes action [perhaps not hiring Pierce Brosnan to do a voice for 10 million dollars, or whatever], or the retailer takes the hit, either due to coupons [which is their option of using] or clearances [and clearances are hardly limited to video games.] The market sees the level of demand, and what prices people are willing to pay, and adjusts. As much as we complain about a 50 dollar game, we're actually getting much much much more for our gaming dollar than we used to in the Atari or NES days. Like many other industries. I can et 10 times the computer now for 1/4 the price of my current one. Or, if I happened to find a raggedy one on sale somewhere, I would probably pay much less than it was originally 'worth'.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'] Am I as bad as a car thief?[/quote]

well arnt you just comming back with 3rd grade responses?

i never said being a cag was stealing, so dont tell me i did.

i said being a cag is bad for the video game industry.

the most i pay for a game (unless its something great) is $15. most often i buy those games used to save $. how does buying a used game support the industry?

as for the cc sale. the vg companies already got the $ for those games from the stores, but next time cc is gunna stock a video game, they miht think twice as opposed to taking a 25-35$ loss per game.

now other than buying games used, or on extreme markdown, sometimes ill buy a value priced game (20 or less) brand new.

so here's a question. every game i buy used, or every cc game i bought, would it matter, theoretically if i pirated every one of those? i understand it helps the economy in general and local business' (where i buy used games) but from the viewpoint of the vg industry, does it matter at all? they get nothing more then they already have gotten out of those games.
 
Two different issues:
Is piracy "bad"?
Does piracy, and being a CAG, affect the game industry?

Is piracy bad? Yes. Firstly, it is stealing. Secondly, there is some evidence it negatively affects the game industry. In my opinion, even if it had no affect whatsoever on the industry, it would still be wrong.

Does piracy/being a CAG affect the game industry?
Various sources are of various opinions about piracy. I'll leave that one alone right now, it's irrelevant at the moment. My response about the car thief/used car sales was in relation to the "piracy=stealing" argument, and my thinking you were calling CAGing similar to piracy in that regard. They are still analogous situations, and if you can't see that, perhaps you should go back to third grade.
Stealing/piracy = bad
Buying used/CAG games/buying used car = ok.
Like I said earlier, being a CAG is not necessarily bad for the industry. There will always be people who look for things on sale or cheaper or used, be it games, books [university textbooks!], cars, houses, whatever. That's a recognized and accepted component of any active economy. Likewise, there will always be people who have to buy the console/games on release day, or for full price. If a game costs too much to buy, the price will be lowered until enough units are sold. Then the maker will take that into account the next time. Yes, that affects the industry. It's called economics. Why did Betamax die out? One reason is more consumers and rental places bought VHS, for whatever reasons. That's called the marketplace. Betamax had to adjust or die, and they didn't adjust very well.
If I can buy 3 good games for 50 bucks, rather than 1 game for 50 bucks, I will most likely do so. Unless that one game for 50 bucks is more important to me than the 3 games.
I think CAGs are exposed to more games than the average gamer. Their average price paid may be less, but many of these games they then resell to people who may not be CAGs, and those people can then be exposed to a type of game or a publisher they weren't before, and if they like it, they are more willing to buy new from that genre or publisher in the future.
I don't know, I don't even know what you're trying to say. Product prices vary. A manufacturer or retailer will sell a product for the price he can get for it. Over time, almost all prices drop until they hit an equilibrium where they maximize units sold and price paid. Then the industry adjusts and takes that into account for the next time. So I shouldn't buy a TV on sale because I'm hurting GE? I shouldn't buy last year's car because I'm hurting the auto industry?
Being a CAG does *affect* the industry. It doesn't necessarily *harm* it. In fact, I would argue that it helps it, by helping to winnow out the chaff, and show publishers there is a very large market for more reasonably priced games. If no one bought 50000$ SUV's, the SUV makers would change their product/pricing so they were more attractive. Consumers get more product for less money, or are willing to pay more money for more product, everybody wins.
And yes it would matter if you pirated all those games. Apart from the fact of piracy being stealing, you could put CC people out of work. Your buying those games, used or cheap, puts money in other peoples hands who are going to spend it. They might spend it on games, or other stuff. Odds are they aren't pirates, so if they buy a game, it will be a legitimate game. The industry does recieve some money down the line. And if that massive CC sale helps CC learn to not buy 150 copies of Pryzm the Unicorn, but to buy more Disgaea, then that's a good thing.
 
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