HD Loader (or Piratin' in General): Heaven Sent or Hell Spawn...

I make a copy of all my games. I don't like scratching my games so they often stay in their case, and I just use the copy! It is legal to make a personal backup of the software you have bought.

I also don't see a problem of pirating old, non supported system, but I don't personally do it.
 
I don't really want to get too far into this.. but.. if you pirate a game you are not giving the game developer the money that they deserve for that product. The more this happens, the less and less money the developers have to spend on games. The less money a developer spends (for the most part), the crappier a game we end up with.

And that's totally ignoring the fact that A. you're stealing, B. it's illegal, C. you have no right to their product without paying for it, etc.
 
[quote name='Storamin']I make a copy of all my games. I don't like scratching my games so they often stay in their case, and I just use the copy! It is legal to make a personal backup of the software you have bought.

I also don't see a problem of pirating old, non supported system, but I don't personally do it.[/quote]

Although making a backup (as long as you never play both at the same time, destroy the backup if you sell the game, etc) probably isn't a very big deal. It is definitely not legal. Without getting into the DMCA et al.. your EULA (end-user license agreement) printed in your game manual states you may not make backups for any reason of the product.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Two different issues:
Is piracy "bad"?
Does piracy, and being a CAG, affect the game industry?

Is piracy bad? Yes. Firstly, it is stealing. Secondly, there is some evidence it negatively affects the game industry. In my opinion, even if it had no affect whatsoever on the industry, it would still be wrong.

Does piracy/being a CAG affect the game industry?
Various sources are of various opinions about piracy. I'll leave that one alone right now, it's irrelevant at the moment. My response about the car thief/used car sales was in relation to the "piracy=stealing" argument, and my thinking you were calling CAGing similar to piracy in that regard. They are still analogous situations, and if you can't see that, perhaps you should go back to third grade.
Stealing/piracy = bad
Buying used/CAG games/buying used car = ok.
Like I said earlier, being a CAG is not necessarily bad for the industry. There will always be people who look for things on sale or cheaper or used, be it games, books [university textbooks!], cars, houses, whatever. That's a recognized and accepted component of any active economy. Likewise, there will always be people who have to buy the console/games on release day, or for full price. If a game costs too much to buy, the price will be lowered until enough units are sold. Then the maker will take that into account the next time. Yes, that affects the industry. It's called economics. Why did Betamax die out? One reason is more consumers and rental places bought VHS, for whatever reasons. That's called the marketplace. Betamax had to adjust or die, and they didn't adjust very well.
If I can buy 3 good games for 50 bucks, rather than 1 game for 50 bucks, I will most likely do so. Unless that one game for 50 bucks is more important to me than the 3 games.
I think CAGs are exposed to more games than the average gamer. Their average price paid may be less, but many of these games they then resell to people who may not be CAGs, and those people can then be exposed to a type of game or a publisher they weren't before, and if they like it, they are more willing to buy new from that genre or publisher in the future.
I don't know, I don't even know what you're trying to say. Product prices vary. A manufacturer or retailer will sell a product for the price he can get for it. Over time, almost all prices drop until they hit an equilibrium where they maximize units sold and price paid. Then the industry adjusts and takes that into account for the next time. So I shouldn't buy a TV on sale because I'm hurting GE? I shouldn't buy last year's car because I'm hurting the auto industry?
Being a CAG does *affect* the industry. It doesn't necessarily *harm* it. In fact, I would argue that it helps it, by helping to winnow out the chaff, and show publishers there is a very large market for more reasonably priced games. If no one bought 50000$ SUV's, the SUV makers would change their product/pricing so they were more attractive. Consumers get more product for less money, or are willing to pay more money for more product, everybody wins.
And yes it would matter if you pirated all those games. Apart from the fact of piracy being stealing, you could put CC people out of work. Your buying those games, used or cheap, puts money in other peoples hands who are going to spend it. They might spend it on games, or other stuff. Odds are they aren't pirates, so if they buy a game, it will be a legitimate game. The industry does recieve some money down the line. And if that massive CC sale helps CC learn to not buy 150 copies of Pryzm the Unicorn, but to buy more Disgaea, then that's a good thing.[/quote]

"pirating" a car in the context youre using it, would be equal to cloning a car. not stealing it off the street.

i never said piracy was good.
i never said cag was bad.

yes it would matter if you pirated all those games. Apart from the fact of piracy being stealing, you could put CC people out of work.

yeah dude i know. i kinda said that it would effect the general economy :roll:
 
[quote name='dtcarson'] I love the Dead Milkmen, but I'll admit, they're not great musicians. [/quote]

Punk Rock Girl!

Not to mention My Many Smells \:D/
 
[quote name='Backlash'][quote name='dtcarson'] I love the Dead Milkmen, but I'll admit, they're not great musicians. [/quote]

Punk Rock Girl!

Not to mention My Many Smells \:D/[/quote]

That is one of the most disgusting songs I've ever heard. Well, apart from The Puking Song. And yet I can sing along word by word ; )
Have you seen their DVD? They've got a dvd release with all [like 6] of their videos, some live clips, and some cool extras. It's only like 8 bucks, and is all the more poignant give Dave Blood's absence now : (
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Piracy is wrong. End of story.
Part of the reason games are fifty bucks is because of piracy/pirates. If a game's not worth 50 to you, wait till it's 40, 30, 20, or whatever it is worth to you. [/quote]

There is definitely something to be said about being behind the technology curve for gaming. Until I got my PS2 2 years ago, I hadn't gotten any system since my N64 in 1996. I can now play all the fun PS1 games for $5-10, and older PS2 games. The fact that they came out several years ago does not make them any less fun. Good games don't depend on having the latest graphics to be good (though it helps sometimes).
 
I have not seen their DVD (or any of their videos).

Ha ha I just noticed that both of the posts I quoted are by you. I like the way you think I guess. Or parts of what you have to say :)
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb'][quote name='Storamin']I make a copy of all my games. I don't like scratching my games so they often stay in their case, and I just use the copy! It is legal to make a personal backup of the software you have bought.

I also don't see a problem of pirating old, non supported system, but I don't personally do it.[/quote]

Although making a backup (as long as you never play both at the same time, destroy the backup if you sell the game, etc) probably isn't a very big deal. It is definitely not legal. Without getting into the DMCA et al.. your EULA (end-user license agreement) printed in your game manual states you may not make backups for any reason of the product.[/quote]

Would said agreement even be a legal one? I mean if it's in the manual they give no indication of this agreement upon purchase. You could easily argue that you agreed to no such thing upon purchasing their product. And what's more all I could find was a short line saying copying was prohibited (in some I couldn't evne find that), usually in extremely fint print. Nothing stating it was an EULA, or even an agreement. I'm not advocating piracy by any means (I even pay for music downloads), I'm just curious.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell'][quote name='Cornfedwb'][quote name='Storamin']I make a copy of all my games. I don't like scratching my games so they often stay in their case, and I just use the copy! It is legal to make a personal backup of the software you have bought.

I also don't see a problem of pirating old, non supported system, but I don't personally do it.[/quote]

Although making a backup (as long as you never play both at the same time, destroy the backup if you sell the game, etc) probably isn't a very big deal. It is definitely not legal. Without getting into the DMCA et al.. your EULA (end-user license agreement) printed in your game manual states you may not make backups for any reason of the product.[/quote]

Would said agreement even be a legal one? I mean if it's in the manual they give no indication of this agreement upon purchase. You could easily argue that you agreed to no such thing upon purchasing their product. And what's more all I could find was a short line saying copying was prohibited (in some I couldn't evne find that), usually in extremely fint print. Nothing stating it was an EULA, or even an agreement. I'm not advocating piracy by any means (I even pay for music downloads), I'm just curious.[/quote]

I don't have one in front of me, but everyone I've seen basically says you do not have the right to ever make a copy for any reason. And yes, by using the product you are automatically agreeing to the EULA. I believe legally if you never use said product, the EULA is null and void, but once you sell and/or provide a copy to another party, thats illegal copyright violation.. so basically, its illegal to backup a game.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb'][quote name='Duo_Maxwell'][quote name='Cornfedwb'][quote name='Storamin']I make a copy of all my games. I don't like scratching my games so they often stay in their case, and I just use the copy! It is legal to make a personal backup of the software you have bought.

I also don't see a problem of pirating old, non supported system, but I don't personally do it.[/quote]

Although making a backup (as long as you never play both at the same time, destroy the backup if you sell the game, etc) probably isn't a very big deal. It is definitely not legal. Without getting into the DMCA et al.. your EULA (end-user license agreement) printed in your game manual states you may not make backups for any reason of the product.[/quote]

Would said agreement even be a legal one? I mean if it's in the manual they give no indication of this agreement upon purchase. You could easily argue that you agreed to no such thing upon purchasing their product. And what's more all I could find was a short line saying copying was prohibited (in some I couldn't evne find that), usually in extremely fint print. Nothing stating it was an EULA, or even an agreement. I'm not advocating piracy by any means (I even pay for music downloads), I'm just curious.[/quote]

I don't have one in front of me, but everyone I've seen basically says you do not have the right to ever make a copy for any reason. And yes, by using the product you are automatically agreeing to the EULA. I believe legally if you never use said product, the EULA is null and void, but once you sell and/or provide a copy to another party, thats illegal copyright violation.. so basically, its illegal to backup a game.[/quote]

That's interesting...Do you know, has anyone ever argued the case for or against it in court?
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']That's interesting...Do you know, has anyone ever argued the case for or against it in court?[/quote]

It wouldn't matter, its a cut and dry legal interpretation of the law. There'd be no case to argue. This isn't some iffy grey area.. its black and white.
 
[quote name='Cornfedwb']I don't really want to get too far into this.. but.. if you pirate a game you are not giving the game developer the money that they deserve for that product. The more this happens, the less and less money the developers have to spend on games. The less money a developer spends (for the most part), the crappier a game we end up with.

And that's totally ignoring the fact that A. you're stealing, B. it's illegal, C. you have no right to their product without paying for it, etc.[/quote]

That's assuming that all of the copies that pirates aren't buying are also not being moved off of store shelves. Unless the store RTV's the copies of the games, the developer and publisher already have their money... from the store. Actual losses to the developer and publisher are buffered greatly by losses to the stores that sell the games.

Of course, losses to the stores can eventually lead to less ordering which would in turn affect the developers since their initial shipments would be lower, but we could daisy-chain this into an economic impact of a higher order if we really put our heads to it.

The point is, we shouldn't bother with such peripheral problems. The fact of the matter is that piracy is theft, and theft is wrong. Screw the stores. Screw the publishers. It's illegal, period. "Worth the money" isn't a valid argument when you talk about shoplifting, so just because piracy is done digitally through the faceless wonder of the internet doesn't mean that argument is valid.

The industry has a right to be pissed off. The losses aren't what they claim that they are, since a good number of those pirates wouldn't have bought it otherwise. Average game prices are low these days, so the whole "price gauging" and collusion argument that works much better with the RIAA also does not apply here.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='abrannan']


Did I say I had a point? No. There is no point to that post. [/quote]

That's why I asked. I'd appreciate you'd not use that condescending tone when I stated 'I don't get your point, please tell me what it is if I'm missing it.' Or of course be clearer in the first place, or don't make posts without a point.

[/quote]

First off, I'd like to apologize for my last post. I was in a lousy mood when I wrote it, and decided to jump down your throat to make myself feel better.

Second, I actually did have a point, but not the "piracy is always going to exist so we shouldn't do anything about it" point. My point is that software companies (and to a degree Music and Movie) look to the relatively small (compared to the previously mentioned Taiwanese/organized crime) piracy that's being done by people on the internet and declare that that is the reason their product failed. I was saying that they would do this even if they had prefect control over their product. I was also saying that there is a subset of people in the world for whom copying software is not a matter of money, but their way of making some sort of statement. Both sides are wrong, IMO.

First off, not every illegal copy of a piece of IP is a lost sale. For example, I don't pirate PS2 games, even though I own HDloader. However, if I did, I would pirate games that I would otherwise not buy, in addition to those that I probably would buy. Some of those games I stole are not lost sales to the companies that produced them. That in no way makes what I did right, it just makes the "losses due to piracy" figure a little inaccurate.

Second, sometimes piracy can result in good word-of-mouth advertising. If I pirate a game that was poorly advertised or reviewed and is selling bad, and I enjoy that game so I go online and tell everybody who will listen that I think it's a fantastic game, I'd be willing to bet that one or two of those people who read that post would go out and buy that game. Yes, other people will pirate it too, but there are a few sales in there that may not have happened otherwise. Or it may generate more interest/sales in a follow-up to that game. Again, I'm not condoning piracy here, just pointing out some unintended benefits.

Third, if the objection to piracy is that the company that makes the game sees no revenue from that pirated copy, then I ask how much money the company makes from sales of used copies of games? That's two or sometimes three people who have played the game, yet the company only sees the money from one sale.
 
Backlash: Interesting [that you keep quoting me ; )] I do agree, sometimes old games are just as fun, or more fun, than the new ones. And in general much much cheaper, and much easier to find.

[quote name='abrannan']
First off, I'd like to apologize for my last post. I was in a lousy mood when I wrote it, and decided to jump down your throat to make myself feel better.
[/quote]

Gracious apology, graciously accepted. I know how it is.

[quote name='abrannan']Second, I actually did have a point, but not the "piracy is always going to exist so we shouldn't do anything about it" point. My point is that software companies (and to a degree Music and Movie) look to the relatively small (compared to the previously mentioned Taiwanese/organized crime) piracy that's being done by people on the internet and declare that that is the reason their product failed. I was saying that they would do this even if they had prefect control over their product. I was also saying that there is a subset of people in the world for whom copying software is not a matter of money, but their way of making some sort of statement. Both sides are wrong, IMO. [/quote]

Absolutely. There's a psychological term for this, though I forget what it is. Basically, if I do something good, it's because I'm smart or studied or talented or whatever, but if I do something bad, the baby kept me up all night or Mr Jones distracted me or the requirements weren't clearly stated. We [people and companies] tend to internalize and claim successes, while externalizing or blaming others for failures. I do think piracy has *some* effect on the industries you mention, but I also think the industries are vastly overstating that effect [at least in the US, I know some Oriental and European countries have a lot worse problem with professional piracy.]
And there have indeed always been the 'Robin Hood' type hackers, who pirate stuff or break code like you say as a statement, or because it's 'fun.' It's still wrong/illegal, but I can 'see' the thinking behind it.

[quote name='abrannan']
First off, not every illegal copy of a piece of IP is a lost sale. For example, I don't pirate PS2 games, even though I own HDloader. However, if I did, I would pirate games that I would otherwise not buy, in addition to those that I probably would buy. Some of those games I stole are not lost sales to the companies that produced them. That in no way makes what I did right, it just makes the "losses due to piracy" figure a little inaccurate.

Second, sometimes piracy can result in good word-of-mouth advertising. If I pirate a game that was poorly advertised or reviewed and is selling bad, and I enjoy that game so I go online and tell everybody who will listen that I think it's a fantastic game, I'd be willing to bet that one or two of those people who read that post would go out and buy that game. Yes, other people will pirate it too, but there are a few sales in there that may not have happened otherwise. Or it may generate more interest/sales in a follow-up to that game. Again, I'm not condoning piracy here, just pointing out some unintended benefits. [/quote]

This is true, but a little misleading. Almost anything can have unintended benefits [or, unintended consequences--maybe those people who read your praise think Hey, he likes it, but not enough to bother paying for it, so why should I? Hypothetically speaking.] To make an absurd example, we should see the benefit from mass murderers because now those people are using up fewer resources on the earth, there's two fewer people looking for a job, etc. Obviously I don't equate mass murder to piracy, but the 'unintended benefits' argument can be a red herring.

[quote name='abrannan']Third, if the objection to piracy is that the company that makes the game sees no revenue from that pirated copy, then I ask how much money the company makes from sales of used copies of games? That's two or sometimes three people who have played the game, yet the company only sees the money from one sale.[/quote]

True enough. My main objection to piracy is that it's taking something that's not yours, that you have no right to take. Even if it doesn't affect the revenue stream, it's still theft. If you come into my house and steal a dvd from me, that I have listed on Half.com but never sells, is that theft then ok because I didn't lose any revenue? Or a more IP type comparison; I subscribe to Playboy magazine. Is it okay for me to scan in every picture in the magazine to post on my [free] website? Most people who hit my website probably weren't going to buy that issue anyway. Some of them, may, yes. [the unintended benefit]. Playboy and Hef aren't losing any money, besides, he's rich enough as it is. Is it okay to do that?
And regarding used games: the unintended/secondary benefits of that are manifold:
* there is now a secondary industry in the buying/sellinge of used games.
* it's legal.
* it exposes people who might not drop 50 bucks on a game, to a game/genre/publisher; if they like it for 20, they might be more willing to buy the next similar offering for 50 bucks.
Besides, once someone purchases the game, he can do what he wants with it [as long as he still remains compliant with the EULA]; keep it, trade it, sell it, smash it, whatever. It is no longer relevant to the manufacturer.
 
While reading the argument about the EULA I thought about a good legal point against it. Tell me if you agree with this scenario or think I am way off base.

Joe Consumer walks into a game/software store and sees a product he is interested in. He buys it, takes it home, opens the package, and reads the EULA. After reading the EULA Joe decides that he doesn't agree with those rules and does not want to be bound by them. He therefore chooses not to install/play this software and takes it back to the store. Unfortunately for Joe, he cannot have his money back because the product has now been opened.

Do you see where I am going with this? Opening the product automatically binds you to the EULA because it is assumed that you have used it. Joe never got to the chance to decide if the EULA was to his liking. In fact, he had to PAY just to find out the specifics! Now how does Joe get his money back? Sure you could argue that he could have contacted the developer/publisher or gone to the website prior to the purchase but that's not practical nor is it real world. And re-selling it on ebay doesn't count because there is no guarantee that he'll get all of his money back. Either way, Joe gets screwed.
 
[quote name='daphatty']While reading the argument about the EULA I thought about a good legal point against it. Tell me if you agree with this scenario or think I am way off base.

Joe Consumer walks into a game/software store and sees a product he is interested in. He buys it, takes it home, opens the package, and reads the EULA. After reading the EULA Joe decides that he doesn't agree with those rules and does not want to be bound by them. He therefore chooses not to install/play this software and takes it back to the store. Unfortunately for Joe, he cannot have his money back because the product has now been opened.

Do you see where I am going with this? Opening the product automatically binds you to the EULA because it is assumed that you have used it. Joe never got to the chance to decide if the EULA was to his liking. In fact, he had to PAY just to find out the specifics! Now how does Joe get his money back? Sure you could argue that he could have contacted the developer/publisher or gone to the website prior to the purchase but that's not practical nor is it real world. And re-selling it on ebay doesn't count because there is no guarantee that he'll get all of his money back. Either way, Joe gets screwed.[/quote]

Call the developer and explain you don't agree with the EULA.. I'd almost guarantee they'll either send you a replacement game or refund your money.
 
My critical thinking professor told me once that you can always present an argument and nothing is even black and white. However, it's whether or not you can make the argument convincing. Though now that I think about he was a little crazy...

On that note, I thought of a very likely scenario with the EULA thing. That involves used games, many of which never come with manuals or even packaging. How does one agree to the EULA then? There's no indication that it even exists in the view of that particular consumer.
 
So far, EULAs presented as part of an installer along with the option to abort the installation if the EULa is unacceptable, have been sustained as reasonable in court. This has been applied to EULAs from products on a bare CD and real-time installations online.
 
[quote name='epobirs']So far, EULAs presented as part of an installer along with the option to abort the installation if the EULa is unacceptable, have been sustained as reasonable in court. This has been applied to EULAs from products on a bare CD and real-time installations online.[/quote]

That makes sense, as you have the option to agree or disagree with said terms when installing the program on a PC or so. Only you don't install PS2 games. I just popped in my copy of Gungrave, and at no point did a license agreement pop up on my screen, and certainly nothing asked me to abort if I disagreed with anything. I def. see where the EULA comes into play in many cases, but I don't see how I can legally agree to something that I could potentially never even see.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell'][quote name='epobirs']So far, EULAs presented as part of an installer along with the option to abort the installation if the EULa is unacceptable, have been sustained as reasonable in court. This has been applied to EULAs from products on a bare CD and real-time installations online.[/quote]

That makes sense, as you have the option to agree or disagree with said terms when installing the program on a PC or so. Only you don't install PS2 games. I just popped in my copy of Gungrave, and at no point did a license agreement pop up on my screen, and certainly nothing asked me to abort if I disagreed with anything. I def. see where the EULA comes into play in many cases, but I don't see how I can legally agree to something that I could potentially never even see.[/quote]

Since a video game typically has a zero footprint on the system after the power is cut, you don't install it so much as run it, the copyright warning and other data in small print on the disc is considered sufficient. For Pc software there is a variety of liability issues that consoles publishers aren't concerned about.
 
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