Help Someone Uneducated In Regards To Dedicated Video RAM

a_dirty_Shisno

a_dirty_Shisno

CAGiversary!
Alright, if you don't already know, Microsoft announced that they are giving away a free Xbox 360 console with the purchase of a Windows 7 PC at a price of $699 or greater... if you are a college student. And yeah, I know that's not a very CAG price but I thought I'd take a look at some PCs. Well more specifically laptops.

As far as I can tell the only B&M store that is doing this deal is BestBuy. If not, please inform me because I would like some more options. I live in LA so it'd need to be a store out here, of course. I'm not going to order a PC over the internet.

Anyway, that really isn't the point of this post. While I was looking over the available laptops at BestBuy I fell in love with this one:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Toshiba...late/2292408.p?id=1218318237292&skuId=2292408

Well, I fell in love with it for the price-to-feature ratio. Basically it does so much more than it's competition AND it has almost everything I want in a PC. It doesn't have 1080, but I can live without that, and it doesn't have a rewritable Blu-Ray drive, but I can always get an external later.

Unfortunately, while doing a little more research I discovered that that "almost" I mentioned covers one other thing. And for gaming it appears to be a biggie. It doesn't have a dedicated Video RAM.

Now as I said I did a little research but all I got was really confused. So here is my basic question:

Does having a lot of regular old RAM make up for not having a dedicated Video RAM? If not, then why the hell not!?


Seriously, let me give an example in real terms:

Civilization 5 is a game I would like to buy along with a new computer. It says it requires the following:
- Operating System: Windows® XP SP3/ Windows® Vista SP2/ Windows® 7
- Processor: Dual Core CPU
- Memory: 2GB RAM
- Hard Disk Space: 8 GB Free
- DVD-ROM Drive: Required for disc-based installation
- Video: 256 MB ATI HD2600 XT or better, 256 MB nVidia 7900 GS or better, or Core i3 or better integrated graphics
- Sound: DirectX 9.0c-compatible sound card
- DirectX®: DirectX® version 9.0c

It explictly says that it needs a "(dedicated) 256MB ... OR Core i3 or better integrated". Clearly then the above i7 computer should have that covered, right???

But then we take a game like Black Ops:

- OS: Windows Vista / XP / 7
- Processor: Intel Core2 Duo E6600 or AMD Phenom X3 8750 or better
- Memory: 2GB
- HDD: 12GB
- Video: Shader 3.0 or better 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT / ATI Radeon X1950Pro or better
- Sound: DirectX 9.0c-compatible
- DirectX: 9.0c

In this case it still says that it needs 256 MB but doesn't say that an integrated graphics card can replace it. Does this mean that even an i7 would not be able to make up the difference? Even an i7 with 4 to 6 GB more RAM than the game needs? It only needs 2GB of RAM, so there should be all that left over to fill the void, right?

Finally, if all my dreams come true (but I get the feeling I'm about to get a rude awakening), IF the above is all good, then would a future game requiring an i7 have problems or not even play on this PC even if it too only required 2 GB of RAM and 256 MB VRAM? After all, I still would have 4 - 6 GB of RAM left over.

Sorry for the long question, but I though it better to ask all at once rather than post by post. Thanks in advance.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the BIOS of your PC, you can set a certain amount of your normal RAM to be dedicated to your graphics. On my desktop I have 512MB dedicated to graphics and the other 3GB used normally.

But either way, I think you'd be fine. I'm pretty sure this laptop has integrated graphics, and Core i7 integrated graphics are probably pretty damn good.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the BIOS of your PC, you can set a certain amount of your normal RAM to be dedicated to your graphics. On my desktop I have 512MB dedicated to graphics and the other 3GB used normally.

But either way, I think you'd be fine. I'm pretty sure this laptop has integrated graphics, and Core i7 integrated graphics are probably pretty damn good.[/QUOTE]

Seriously! Because that would just about completely solve everything. How would you go about doing that?
 
I'm kinda shopping for a laptop but there's no way I'm spending $700 for a console I don't want. It's not even a good model.

What's wrong with buying online? Seriously, the prices are better and you'll have FAR more selection than you will at a B&M store. Plus it's BB, never liked that place for various reasons... If you're the kind of person who likes to see stuff up close then shop around locally before finding your favorite models online to compare.

As for the RAM it sounds to me like Civ accounted for laptop users and CoD didn't. They rated their specs differently. Can't say whether a better processor will cover the higher card requirement though, it's been years since I built or bought a PC/laptop.
 
[quote name='CAG Trader']I'm kinda shopping for a laptop but there's no way I'm spending $700 for a console I don't want. It's not even a good model.

What's wrong with buying online? Seriously, the prices are better and you'll have FAR more selection than you will at a B&M store. Plus it's BB, never liked that place for various reasons... If you're the kind of person who likes to see stuff up close then shop around locally before finding your favorite models online to compare.

As for the RAM it sounds to me like Civ accounted for laptop users and CoD didn't. They rated their specs differently. Can't say whether a better processor will cover the higher card requirement though, it's been years since I built or bought a PC/laptop.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to trust that it won't fall off the truck and get damaged on the way to my door. It's too expensive an item to put blind faith in that it was handled properly. At least on the way to retailers it should pass more gentle hands than the US postal service or UPS is known for. Not to mention the fact that it could be delivered when I'm not home, then stolen from my doorstep before I get to it. I simply make it a habit to never buy something online that is more expensive than the lowest credit limit I've been offered (a measly $250 --- what'll I do with that card :roll:).

Plus the only online retailers that are likely to have a really great deal on a laptop are places like Amazon and are not a part of this program. There's the Microsoft Store (I have no idea if they have a B&M) and the HP store, and something else was mentioned that I'm pretty sure is online only.

But in the end it has to be at least $699 by the time it reaches checkout. At this point I'm looking for a reasonably priced computer that I actually want to buy and I'm getting a free Xbox that I won't mind having but wouldn't pay money to get. I hope that answers your question.
 
I don't know if I am answering everything here or not, but here is some info.

Any of the integrated gpus (IGP's) aren't going to play most games well, and even if they can run, it will probably be on low settings. You can usually select how much RAM the IGP gets to use, but even with 2GB of RAM set aside, an IGP is going to run games much worse than any dedicated GPU with 512Mb of RAM. The IGP hits a bottleneck on how much RAM it can process, therefore having any more over that amount is just excess.

I don't know why you don't want to buy one online. I have spent thousands on PC parts and televisions purchase online and shipped to my house without a single problem.
 
The VRAM is your video ram. This is different from your actual ram. Certain motherboards have "onboard video" which is what the Civ 5 system requirements is referring to. This is why PC gamers purchase video cards that have 1gb or more to avoid a bottleneck and have their games run efficiently.

The laptop that you are looking at has Intel's HD graphics which will play Civ 5 fine and Blops at some bare minimum settings.

Answer honestly, do you want a laptop to game with or do you want the x360 to game with? A 17inch gaming laptop is not a small laptop, nor will the battery last long enough for a full days worth of lectures.
 
[quote name='j-cart']The VRAM is your video ram. This is different from your actual ram. Certain motherboards have "onboard video" which is what the Civ 5 system requirements is referring to. This is why PC gamers purchase video cards that have 1gb or more to avoid a bottleneck and have their games run efficiently.

The laptop that you are looking at has Intel's HD graphics which will play Civ 5 fine and Blops at some bare minimum settings.

Answer honestly, do you want a laptop to game with or do you want the x360 to game with? A 17inch gaming laptop is not a small laptop, nor will the battery last long enough for a full days worth of lectures.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I want what I have now, only up-to-date. Basically it is a mobile desktop. I use it mostly at home (on my bed :)), but do occasionally take it out to class or elsewhere. Everyone in my classes have laptops with bad batteries, so we all bring in our power cords and plug them in. But since we're in Computer Science classes there are even power outlets imbedded in every desk. There simply is no reason to worry about battery life. I don't fly anywhere so I really have no problem stopping to plug it in before I start to use it.

Now in the end, I have always said two things. I need to upgrade my laptop, and I don't believe in microsoft (referencing ONLY to gaming). But just because I don't believe in them doesn't mean I won't be happy they pushed me to finally going out to the store and buying that new laptop I really do need and giving me an Xbox for free. Maybe they'll change my mind and I'll turn into an Xbox lover for life, or maybe not and I'll get the occasional joy out the exclusive I buy cheap every once in a while.

And if in the the end I really hate it, I can just sell it. :D



On topic: What exactly creates the bottleneck? If Black OPs only requires a 2 Core system (I assume that's what "Duo" means) with only 2 GB of RAM, then why can't the extra 2 cores the i7 above has take care of the 256 MB of VRAM using the other 4 to 6 GB of available RAM?
 
Let me make it simple for you.
Regular system RAM is slow.
VRAM is holyshit fast. It can be as fast as x10 the fastest system RAM.

An integrated card steals your system ram.
A dedicated card gets its own VRAM.

The maximum possible bandwidth of the system ram in your laptop is 10.6 gb/s.

A 580gtx (considered to be one of the fastest single gpu video cards available) has a bandwidth of 192.4 gb/s.


Something else that I'm not exactly sure how it works. The speed of the graphics clock and the processor clock in a dedicated card is certainly much faster than an integrated solution. I'm not sure if integrated steals CPU cycles or has its own shitty processor. Either way that also contributes to why its worse.

God damn I'm nice tonight. Heres the fucking link for your bullshits. Scroll down to the benchmark section and look at Black Ops and other games you might want to play. With everything set on as low as possible, a range of laptops tested got 20-32 fps.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-3000.37948.0.html
 
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[quote name='a_dirty_Shisno'] What exactly creates the bottleneck? If Black OPs only requires a 2 Core system (I assume that's what "Duo" means) with only 2 GB of RAM, then why can't the extra 2 cores the i7 above has take care of the 256 MB of VRAM using the other 4 to 6 GB of available RAM?[/QUOTE]

You are confusing different things here.

RAM is random access memory. This is what your CPU (in your case the i7) uses when processing data. All memory stored on the ram is not saved. The 2gb that Blops lists as the requirement is talking about this kind of RAM.

VRAM is your video random access memory. Graphics Processing Unit (also dubbed GPU, GFX card, Video cards, or VPU) also requires its own set of RAM, VRAM.

Certain CPUs are mixed CPU/GPU which is what you are confusing. Some i3 CPUs come with a built in GPU. i7 is faster, but it does not contain a GPU in it.

As for the Toshiba Laptop. Intel HD graphics is enough to do 1080p video, but that isn't saying much. Also Bestbuy has the details list wrong. 2.0ghz i7's do not come with Intel HD graphics.

/edit: crystalklear64 said it before me. Go to a bestbuy and ask someone to show a 17 inch laptop, there is a reason why they call them a desktop replacement. And if you want to game, don't get a laptop. You will spend more money on something that will last maybe 3 years, compared to a desktop that will be cheaper and better. If you need a laptop, get one. If you need to play PC games, get a PC. Strictly my opinion, but gaming laptops just aren't worth the money, the lack of upgrades and the problems that they will run into.
 
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[quote name='j-cart']As for the Toshiba Laptop. Intel HD graphics is enough to do 1080p video, but that isn't saying much. Also Bestbuy has the details list wrong. 2.0ghz i7's do not come with Intel HD graphics.[/QUOTE]
well this is gonna fuck up the link i gave him and the exact numbers i had, but toshiba themselves list that model as having the hd 3000 in that link he posted (http://us.toshiba.com/computers/laptops/satellite/A660/A665-S6100X/)
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']well this is gonna fuck up the link i gave him and the exact numbers i had, but toshiba themselves list that model as having the hd 3000 in that link he posted (http://us.toshiba.com/computers/laptops/satellite/A660/A665-S6100X/)[/QUOTE]

If it is the case that the toshiba comes with Intel's HD 3000, then that thing will barely run Blops on 800 x 600 low, with everything off @ barely 22 fps. It can still get some good frames are certain games, but expect a good chunk of the processing just dedicated to rendering the environment.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Intel-HD-Graphics-3000-graphics-solution.43710.0.html

[quote name='urmomlikesme']Will an Alienware m14x be able to run most games?[/QUOTE]

The new GT555M is a pretty solid potable GPU. Supposedly can run Capcom's horrid MT FrameWork Engine with some ease. Simple answer: Yes.

/edit: Seems that a lot of people are getting some ridiculous numbers because they are OCing their m14x http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m14x/574778-official-alienware-m14x-benchmark-thread.html
 
[quote name='a_dirty_Shisno']I'm not going to trust that it won't fall off the truck and get damaged on the way to my door. It's too expensive an item to put blind faith in that it was handled properly. At least on the way to retailers it should pass more gentle hands than the US postal service or UPS is known for. Not to mention the fact that it could be delivered when I'm not home, then stolen from my doorstep before I get to it. I simply make it a habit to never buy something online that is more expensive than the lowest credit limit I've been offered (a measly $250 --- what'll I do with that card :roll:).

Plus the only online retailers that are likely to have a really great deal on a laptop are places like Amazon and are not a part of this program. There's the Microsoft Store (I have no idea if they have a B&M) and the HP store, and something else was mentioned that I'm pretty sure is online only.

But in the end it has to be at least $699 by the time it reaches checkout. At this point I'm looking for a reasonably priced computer that I actually want to buy and I'm getting a free Xbox that I won't mind having but wouldn't pay money to get. I hope that answers your question.[/QUOTE]

That can happen but it's usually not too hard to file a claim. I've had to do that with a few items through UPS. Cost me nothing extra. Using a better shipper lessens the chances. The delivery can be altered too, either shipped to work, held at the post office, whatever.

Just saying is all. Online has better choices and prices. You can get more computer for that $700. Although if you can't find sites that offer the deal I guess that would make things difficult. Newegg, Tigerdirect, J&R? Oh well.
 
Online buying > B&M for computers.

Every reputable retailer has to have some awesome warranty and/or RMA processing or else no one would be buying electronics online.

Also, retailers do not have gentle hands ;)
 
This is a great topic.

I've always wondered about this!

How do you guys who know about this stuff learn?

Even simple stuff like "VRAM is about 10 times faster than system RAM" I didn't know.
 
Google, Wikipedia, experience from building my own computer and Tom's Hardware (AWESOME SITE for PC related questions).

Playing around with old computer parts and a curiosity for how things work help too.
 
Alright then. I've done a lot more googling and taken much of what I found out there and what was said here into account and I have learned this:

It seems to be pretty accurate that dedicated Video RAM runs much faster than RAM even though it is much smaller in size. It would not be unreasonable to suggest that 10 times the speed is capable. As such, a game requiring 256 MB (a.k.a. 0.25 GB) would need 2.5 GB of shared VRAM to make up for it at that speed. However this particular laptop's shared VRAM maxes out at 1696MB, which is just over 1.5 GB. For anyone really bad at math 1.5 < 2.5, meaning that there is a serious loss of .... calculations (?) every second. In fact only 3/5 are perfomed. I'm guessing this is (part of) the bottlenecking everybody has been talking about.

In regards to actual field testing, multiple sites suggest that the HD Graphics 3000 (that's what this computer has) is actually a fairly good integrated graphics ..... card (Is it actually considered a card?), but when compared to dedicated graphics cards it is only considered "entry level". It is capable of playing older titles at maximum settings, recent titles on moderate settings, the newest titles on low settings, and is unlikely to be able to play future titles.

In other words, this laptop just won't cut it.

It has excellent features for it's price but if wanted for gaming purposes it's time is already up. At this point drop $700 off the price and it'll be more appealing ;). In other words, solely due to it's graphics card, it would be a bad idea to get this laptop. Obviously I have to pass on it at this time and price.

Well thank you all again for your input and now I have but one more thing to add to my list of the perfect laptop that I'll apparently never be able to buy... because it'll be way to expensive!

Blu-Ray (check)
> 720 (check)
N (check)
Full Freekin Keyboard (check)
Boatload of USB (check)
dedicated graphics card (double check!)

Bonus: GB Ethernet, Blu-Ray RW, and the larger HDD bay for TB+ sizes would be nice.

This is why I can never play PC games. I just can't afford the setup. And yes I still want a laptop. My choice. Live with it.

Thanks a third!
 
[quote name='a_dirty_Shisno']
This is why I can never play PC games. I just can't afford the setup. And yes I still want a laptop. My choice. Live with it.

Thanks a third![/QUOTE]

Do what everyone else does. Build a PC and get yourself a netbook. Some of the newer netbooks have GPU that support light gaming.

Then you have both of two worlds.

Or but the alienware m14x @ $1200
 
[quote name='UrAllVirgins']Even simple stuff like "VRAM is about 10 times faster than system RAM" I didn't know.[/QUOTE]
woah woah, lets not make stuff up here. theres no rule that says its 10 times faster. i just said it can be. hell, in the example i posted its almost x20 faster. x10 faster is just a number that it could be that i picked. you can get faster ram and slower vram that close the gap.
 
[quote name='j-cart']Online buying > B&M for computers. [/QUOTE]
Not always. I've bought two laptops at Best Buy and got them for ~$200 less than the same model at anywhere else I found online.

If you look/wait for deals at a B&M store, you can get better deals than online, as B&M retailers put things on clearance a lot more often due to their limited shelf space.

To the OP: If you want to use a computer for gaming, you have to have a dedicated video card. No integrated video is going to be able to play modern games at decent framerates/resolution.
 
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