Hey, it's another Ebay thread by a disgruntled seller

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So, guys. I sold an Aiptek camera (Think of a slightly cheaper version of a Flip Camera) to a buyer a week ago. Today he tells me "I have opened it and it doesn't work like I thought it would. I would like a refund." I tell him that according to my listing, my return policy is that I do not offer refunds. I tell him that I have sold him a product that was accurately described and in factory sealed condition and suggested to contact the manufacturer if he is having issues with the camera.

Then he opens up a dispute. I respond to Ebay, basically reiterating everything and stating that my listing said my return policy was no refunds. Just now I got Ebay's final decision.
This case was decided in the buyer's favor.

The buyer has been asked to return the item to you. Once tracking shows the item has been delivered to you, the buyer will be issued a full refund.
Click to expand...

I am shocked. I knew Ebay sides with the buyers all the time, but does a seller's return policy not mean anything if a buyer bitches about it? I know all this schmuck did was make an uninformed purchase, expected the 55 dollar camera to perform like a 400 dollar model, and want to weasel his way out of the purchase. Douches like these need to purchase from buyers who offer refunds. I mean, shit, on Ebay you're allowed to state a policy such as, "Returns accepted, but must be returned in exact condition as sold" but I didn't even say that. Flat out no returns. But that doesn't mean shit to Ebay. And what pisses me off is that you're allowed to add a 20% restocking fee, but Ebay is just going to give him a full refund.

Now I'm going to get an opened camera, a negative feedback, and be out 20-25 bucks having to sell it as a used camera. Right now I'm praying the buyer doesn't use tracking on his package so that maybe I can get out of giving the refund to the dude.

So, not sure if I have any recourse (if anyone has any ideas, please post them) but this is mainly a rant thread.

EDIT: Shit, apparently Ebay gave this guy a UPS with tracking label. That's pretty ironclad. Goddamn it.
 
Yeah, you definitely got the raw end of that deal.
But that's just the risk you take when you do business with Ebay... or just people in general.
You're just going to have to eat the loss and move on.


Well.... you could also sign that mutherfucker up with a crap load of spam mail/magazines. I say he deserves that much.
 
[quote name='supraazn']Yeah, you definitely got the raw end of that deal.
But that's just the risk you take when you do business with Ebay... or just people in general.
You're just going to have to eat the loss and move on.


Well.... you could also sign that mutherfucker up with a crap load of spam mail/magazines. I say he deserves that much.[/QUOTE]

I also have his phone number he included with the claim. So I have a lot of tools at my disposal.

It's just bizarre to me that a return policy doesn't mean anything. Also, the claim was opened as "Item not as described" but he never said exactly why it wasn't as described.

EDIT: I'm going to open a BBB case. I've heard buyers have gotten reimbursed before when money was unfairly taken from them.
 
[quote name='SlammedNiss']What's the point of asking what your return policy is when you're setting up the auction if it doesn't mean shit?[/QUOTE]
You've got me. Ebay is so retarded. I just read the buyer's comments and it never explictly stated the camera was damaged, yet Ebay put the reason of the complaint being found in the favor of the buyer was "The item is damaged." Yet no one has said anything about the item being damaged.

Wow, I've been on hold for 30 minutes now with Ebay support. What a bunch of assholes.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']What did the buyer say in the complaint to eBay?[/QUOTE]
"When I asked for a refund because the camera doesn't work he replied saying that I need to contact the manufacturer of it. The camera is useless, I would like a full refund, I have the package and everything that came with it. Thank you, Efren Ormaza"
 
What a douche, and eBay blows for giving him a refund. No where does he say it was damaged or not as described, i.e. new. It's so sad that they continue to bend further and further backwards to cater to the buyer. It's like, they forget that both the buyer and seller are they customers. We both deserve to be treated right.
 
I don't get whats the problem. Just grab another one out of your inventory and sell it as....ohhh wait you are not a store front. What the hell Ebay. I cant believe they would not look into it. One complaint and the guy wins and you loose. Why would they do that. Please let us know what they say on the phone.
 
[quote name='Lice']I don't get whats the problem. Just grab another one out of your inventory and sell it as....ohhh wait you are not a store front. What the hell Ebay. I cant believe they would not look into it. One complaint and the guy wins and you loose. Why would they do that. Please let us know what they say on the phone.[/QUOTE]
LOL. That's exactly how they look at it too. I'm just a guy just like the buyer, just on the other end of the spectrum.

If Ebay ever picks up, I'll let you know what they say. 45 minutes on hold.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']LOL. That's exactly how they look at it too. I'm just a guy just like the buyer, just on the other end of the spectrum.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, exactly, exactly. Ebay completely fails at realizing this reality. Not everyone that sells stuff on eBay is in business for themselves. Many of us are just trying to get rid of stuff we don't want or need.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Exactly, exactly, exactly. Ebay completely fails at realizing this reality. Not everyone that sells stuff on eBay is in business for themselves. Many of us are just trying to get rid of stuff we don't want or need.[/QUOTE]
I guess now I want/need the camera. If this doesn't get sorted through, I'm going to keep the camera, sign the guy up for a ton of spam mail, and call him to let him know he should be proud of himself.

EDIT: Not that it matters much, but I love the drive by 1 star ratings that CAG do. Don't bother explaining why this thread sucks.
 
[quote name='supraazn']
Well.... you could also sign that mutherfucker up with a crap load of spam mail/magazines. I say he deserves that much.[/QUOTE]

actually, i'd put a post on craigslist saying that he's looking for homosexual encounters with multiple participants late at night at his address.
 
Answer me this FOS, what would be worse having Meg Witman or having the Maverick in your state? I feel your pain though, too many dishonest people out there.

[quote name='LaraCroftsLeftBoob']actually, i'd put a post on craigslist saying that he's looking for homosexual encounters with multiple participants late at night.[/QUOTE]

LMAO... You do have his address and could do it in his city. Hell, I don't know if we could do it here, but run a contest to see who could think of the biggest burn!

A buddy of mine played a prank like this on craigslist, I forget what the listing was something about mud wrestling with men. He actually got calls!
 
[quote name='skiizim']Answer me this FOS, what would be worse having Meg Witman or having the Maverick in your state? I feel your pain though, too many dishonest people out there.[/QUOTE]
McCain used to be a decent fellow. Least I can remember that.

But hey enjoy having Whitman, it sounds like she threw enough money at the candidacy to buy herself a governor position this November.

EDIT: I like the Craigslist idea. Not sure if I could get fingered for charges if he complained to the police though. Seems like a longshot I would get caught.
 
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']What a douche, and eBay blows for giving him a refund. No where does he say it was damaged or not as described, i.e. new. It's so sad that they continue to bend further and further backwards to cater to the buyer. It's like, they forget that both the buyer and seller are they customers. We both deserve to be treated right.[/QUOTE]
This. Seriously, what the fuck is the point of asking if you accept returns if it doesnt matter whether you do or dont? fuck ebay. I really hope someone else comes along and makes them the next myspace. They deserve nothing less.

I wonder if a site like the Consumerist would run something on Ebay.
 
There are a few options. I believe you can charge up to a 20% restocking fee, you can also try to contact ebay and report that the seller sent back an item materially different then what he was sold since you sold him a new item and he sent back a used one.
 
I learned quickly how badly eBay got when the following occurred:

I sold 250 empty DVD cases (I used to store my created DVDRs this way). The auction ended very cheap and even though I quoted "actual shipping costs" in the auction, figured the price would get covered a bit over all.

Item gets mailed to the buyer.

Buyer indicates that ALL the cases (yes, all 250) are wet (not sure why this matters, they're PLASTIC)... I respond noting "they're plastic" and asking why his post office left a giant package out to get rained on.

He then responds to tell me they're wet AND Broken (yes, all 250)... I let him know that this is different than the story before, the condition was as described in the auction (used condition, some may be in better condition than others).... he went to Ebay/Paypal.

Long story short, I got the same e-mail. He won. He got his money back. He then mailed me back *50* cases. Not 250, *50*... In the end Paypal and Ebay do nothing. This guy not only robbed me, he then committed mail fraud and the wonderful company DID NOT CARE.

I'm just trying to sell my extra stuff in my house. I can't even begin to imagine how people who do this for a living can survive. Between the cut by Paypal AND Ebay, then the sheer volume of NPB I get on simple stuff... and the fact that there is NO harm/foul for just not paying to a buyer anymore. They don't even ban buyers anymore, they *could* ban them. Oh, man... could.
 
[quote name='Brian9824']There are a few options. I believe you can charge up to a 20% restocking fee, you can also try to contact ebay and report that the seller sent back an item materially different then what he was sold since you sold him a new item and he sent back a used one.[/QUOTE]

I got NO where when the guy robbed me. I needed a notarized statement and/or police report. The freaking weights logged on the Delivery Confirmation were clearly incorrect/didn't match by up to 10 pounds and ... nothing. Ebay doesn't care. They see the sellers as a captive audience and will continue to rape them.
 
I was looking through your listing FOS on ebay, you sold that camera pretty damn cheap compared to what others were selling for. Just a suggestion as a buyer though, I like seeing pictures of the actual item and not stock items. Your feedback is great, but most of the time I'm very cautions of what seller I buy from and really like seeing pictures of the item being sold.

Are you still on hold?
 
[quote name='Brian9824']There are a few options. I believe you can charge up to a 20% restocking fee, you can also try to contact ebay and report that the seller sent back an item materially different then what he was sold since you sold him a new item and he sent back a used one.[/QUOTE]
I have no way of doing this in the claim. What's hillarious is if I my policy set to be a 20% restocking fee, they probably would have disregarded that anyway.

[quote name='MrNEWZ']I learned quickly how badly eBay got when the following occurred:

I sold 250 empty DVD cases (I used to store my created DVDRs this way). The auction ended very cheap and even though I quoted "actual shipping costs" in the auction, figured the price would get covered a bit over all.

Item gets mailed to the buyer.

Buyer indicates that ALL the cases (yes, all 250) are wet (not sure why this matters, they're PLASTIC)... I respond noting "they're plastic" and asking why his post office left a giant package out to get rained on.

He then responds to tell me they're wet AND Broken (yes, all 250)... I let him know that this is different than the story before, the condition was as described in the auction (used condition, some may be in better condition than others).... he went to Ebay/Paypal.

Long story short, I got the same e-mail. He won. He got his money back. He then mailed me back *50* cases. Not 250, *50*... In the end Paypal and Ebay do nothing. This guy not only robbed me, he then committed mail fraud and the wonderful company DID NOT CARE.

I'm just trying to sell my extra stuff in my house. I can't even begin to imagine how people who do this for a living can survive. Between the cut by Paypal AND Ebay, then the sheer volume of NPB I get on simple stuff... and the fact that there is NO harm/foul for just not paying to a buyer anymore. They don't even ban buyers anymore, they *could* ban them. Oh, man... could.[/QUOTE]
That's freakin' terrible. I'm sorry man. I think I'm through with Ebay at this point. I'm just going to focus on trade in flips and craigslisting the non-game stuff. It's not worth getting fucked over openly by Ebay.

[quote name='skiizim']I was looking through your listing FOS on ebay, you sold that camera pretty damn cheap compared to what others were selling for. Just a suggestion as a buyer though, I like seeing pictures of the actual item and not stock items. Your feedback is great, but most of the time I'm very cautions of what seller I buy from and really like seeing pictures of the item being sold.

Are you still on hold?[/QUOTE]
I try to do pictures when I can. But my girlfriend was away with her camera when I initially created the listing. So I just posted it as is. That camera took forever to sell, even though it was competitively priced (probably because of like how you said, I had no picture of the item) Even if I put a picture there, the dude still would have won his dispute. In fact he could have wrote "blah blah blah ebay sucks cocks" in his dispute and the Ebay bot still would have granted his refund.

Also, I was on hold for an hour and 20 minutes. Line went silent (but I was still connected) so after a few minutes I called back. Been on hold for another 40 minutes.

Hey maybe I should call in as a buyer. I'm sure I'd get some support on the phone then.

Shock, I wrote the Consumerist. I hope they run a story.

EDIT: My second phone call ran a little past one hour of hold time. Someone finally picked up, who told me I'd be able to appeal once I received the item. He told me that since he will be sending me an opened camera, I can say that I received an item different than what I received. But after reading Mr. Newz's post, I don't feel so confident. The guy could send me the camera smashed to bits, or an empty box, and he'd get away with it.
 
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Wow, what a crock.
As a small bit of lemonade, any way you can claim defective to the manufacturer and eventually get a new unit?
 
FOS -- just wait until Ebay gives your personal information out to an unstable individual and they begin to make harassing phone calls. It's awesome.

I love eBay so much... [rolls eyes]
 
Ebay has gotten to the point its not worth selling stuff as an individual. Between the high fees and people scamming and filing disputes for no reason other than their own stupidity its not really worth it anymore for an occasional sale.
 
[quote name='blissskr']Ebay has gotten to the point its not worth selling stuff as an individual. Between the high fees and people scamming and filing disputes for no reason other than their own stupidity its not really worth it anymore for an occasional sale.[/QUOTE]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Businesses can survive on eBay, because loss is part of the business model. You're gonna take some hits sometimes. But me, I'm just looking to recoup some money from this game I beat or sell this present that I don't want and don't have the receipt for. I don't have the time or money to be screwing around with some douche who bought the item and now doesn't want it. If you want to test something out, go to a store or borrow it from a friend. Don't buy it on eBay and then be an asshole.
 
[quote name='MrNEWZ']FOS -- just wait until Ebay gives your personal information out to an unstable individual and they begin to make harassing phone calls. It's awesome.

I love eBay so much... [rolls eyes][/QUOTE]

Holy fuck. Imagine getting calls at 2 in the morning from some douche bag from Maldives because of a lost package. fucking everyday for a week. I refunded him the money just so he would stop calling me and he continued it for another week.
 
Just a word of advice - before doing anything rash about Craigslisting this guy...you might want to get that guy's name out of the post you had on the first page...a little google search of his name will swat all hopes of getting away :(. After that post it all on _chan, they can take it from there ;)

I feel you though bro. I have used ebay a ton for buying, but only twice for selling...I lost about 3 dollars on the first one, but I actually made a huge profit on the second. I still am not going to be a person who will memorize the entirety of the ebay sellers policy/faq and would rather sell on Craigslist...at least you don't have to pay for their ineptitude through sellers fees....I have gone against using ebay since then even for buying because I pity sellers...
 
As terrible as the guy is I would advise against posting his home address on craigslist. You can go to jail if you post an address and someone does physical harm to him. I heard of a case of it on TV before where a guy set something up at the victim's house via craigslist and he ended up in jail as well as the guy who did the actual crime. It's really just as bad as doing the crime personally and nothing to play with.
 
Welcome to Ebay! If you aren't a powerseller or a buyer they don't give a damn about you! Enjoy your stay and don't forget to bring plenty of Vasoline for when they stick it to you!

Seriously though I really wish they had some competition Ebay has turned into a shit hole for average people just trying to sell some old stuff they have.
 
[quote name='dragoon99']As terrible as the guy is I would advise against posting his home address on craigslist. You can go to jail if you post an address and someone does physical harm to him. I heard of a case of it on TV before where a guy set something up at the victim's house via craigslist and he ended up in jail as well as the guy who did the actual crime. It's really just as bad as doing the crime personally and nothing to play with.[/QUOTE]


Pro-Tip: Use proxies or Tor.
 
[quote name='jimbodan']Welcome to Ebay! If you aren't a powerseller or a buyer they don't give a damn about you! Enjoy your stay and don't forget to bring plenty of Vasoline for when they stick it to you!

Seriously though I really wish they had some competition Ebay has turned into a shit hole for average people just trying to sell some old stuff they have.[/QUOTE]

Not true. I'm a powerseller and I've lost many claims to people scamming me. On top of that, my one case that I've ever had to open just to get a refund is going on 5 weeks without a resolution. I sent the items back 4 weeks ago by the way. It's really starting to fucking piss me off.
 
[quote name='soonersfan60']And all of the new rules require sellers to bend over backwards for unrealistic, clueless buyers or eBay penalizes your seller account.[/QUOTE]

That too! You have no idea how many people want to return a brand new game that they opened for a full refund. All I can say about that is what the fuck? I'm supposed to take a huge loss because you're an idiot and didn't like the game? The best part about that is if I say "no" to the person, they just file a claim and get a refund without even sending my item back. Woooh Ebay!

I finally got a hold of eBay on the phone... And they hung up on me.

This is the last time I ever pay for anything with my Paypal balance. I'll be using my CC from now on.
 
eBay's new "buyer protection" seems to be that they'll blackmail sellers into taking stuff back, even if the seller stated no returns. And don't get me started on their idiotic shipping cost limits when you list stuff ($6, even for a lot of x# of games?!)... and buyers can still rate you a 1 or 2, and getting 2 of those--even with hundreds of satisfied customers--has eBay sending you threatening email that if it happens again your account will be restricted. I had a seller complain about "overcharging" them $2.16 because of the cost on the postage meter strip. Never mind the fact that packaging, gas, etc. actually cost money, but on top of that I clearly stated in the auction that shipping would be $8 and then they complained because they said I didn't actually spend $8 on the postage meter (only $5.84 or whatever). Nothing irritates me more than that. You AGREED to $8 when you bid. I don't care if I charged you $1,000,000 and it only cost me a penny to send--you AGREED, end of story.
 
I used to sell on Ebay quite a bit a few years ago, and from personal experience Ebay doesn't give a shit if you say "No Returns" because they will force you to accept a return and refund anyways if the buyer complains.

Ebay generally will ignore all instances of "No Returns" found in a listing so I don't know why they even bother to make it an option. Adding this to your listings won't help you in any way since most buyers will bully Ebay / Paypal into making a seller accept the return anyways.
 
It's always been like that. It being "paypal" or "ebay" buyer protection really doesn't matter. They both bullied the seller into always accepting returns.

Anyhow, I finally got my $125 refund from almost 2 MONTHS ago... I had to call their customer support to get my refund and trust me when I say that finding their number was no easy task. It took me about 40 minutes to find a number where people could actually help me.
 
I'm glad to hear you finally got your refund.

The dude's item is currently in transit according to the tracking. We'll see if he's gonna send me a hot mess or if he actually cared enough to package my item well.
 
Well you have to look at it at a different level. The refund policy is not a tool to assist you in selling defective merchandise. I can't sell something as working knowing it is broken, then just say to the buyer "oh well I do not accept refunds so you have to take it." Now I do not know all the specifics of the story. You say it was in factory sealed condition, so I take it to mean it was unopened? In that case yes I would agree with you he needs to send it to the manufacturer, although I am not sure what he can do without the receipt. Since he did not buy the camcorder from a licensed reseller does the manufacturer have to do anything? I dunno. Either way I am not going to argue the law behind it, I just wanted to let you know that the refund policy can be unenforceable. Saying no refunds allowed protects you from people that decide they do not want it, not from selling defective merchandise. I am not saying you are in the wrong, I do not have enough info to make a judgement. I'm just stating some facts.
 
I read the Ebay page too. If I sell something defective and it's not disclosed as such, no returns does not cover that. But, in all honesty, no returns means nothing. They need to stop pretending I can sell an item as is and refuse returns. You just can't, period.
 
I may have to join in on this bandwagon, I sold a controller to a person in Canada and it hasn't arrived yet and they opened a case...without paypal even questioning me, they took the money out of my account. That really ticks me off, and it'll be the LAST time I ever ship to a Canadian. Most of them are so impatient, they always ask me like 3 days later when it'll get there, when they know good and well that it takes awhile to get there from the US. Especially from the Southern region.
 
Ebay / paypal / amazon are shit. Let's face it kids we live in a digital world and do transactions with no real money. It doesn't exist it is all virtual, so you have to play by their rules.

I had a women return my projector I sold her on ebay 2 months yeh 2 fucken months later.
Anythere auction, even after I had gotten positive feedback. The person was allowed to return a game I sold 1 1/2 months later.
 
BTW you guys should sign up for one of their alternative payment methods.
Paymate or
Moneybookers.

They will hold your funds based on your feedback score though.
 
[quote name='mr_bungle']I may have to join in on this bandwagon, I sold a controller to a person in Canada and it hasn't arrived yet and they opened a case...without paypal even questioning me, they took the money out of my account. That really ticks me off, and it'll be the LAST time I ever ship to a Canadian. Most of them are so impatient, they always ask me like 3 days later when it'll get there, when they know good and well that it takes awhile to get there from the US. Especially from the Southern region.[/QUOTE]

Those people really suck... If you guys ever ship to Brazil, then holy fuck are you in for a treat. Shipments that go there usually take upwards of 4 weeks. You have no idea how many people constantly bitch and moan about their package taking so long to arrive and open up disputes. It sucks getting $40-$50 held on you because someone is impatient. 2 weeks later, their package arrives and they close the dispute, but just having my money on hold for that long is really inconvenient.
 
[quote name='TiKi2']BTW you guys should sign up for one of their alternative payment methods.
Paymate or
Moneybookers.

They will hold your funds based on your feedback score though.[/QUOTE]

How does that work with Ebay's buyer protection? Is that really the way to avoid Ebay raping you?
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']How does that work with Ebay's buyer protection? Is that really the way to avoid Ebay raping you?[/QUOTE]

Well ebay is paypal so if the funds goto to the other payment methods it loosens their hold on them. Moneybookers will hold your funds for 45 days if you have low feedback score. The problem is the credit card companies and their chargebacks , thats why I hate digital money you have absolutely no control over your funds. There is a saying in the gold/silver community " If you don't hold it, you don't own it" . But yeh check them out. Ever wonder why ebay doesn't allow google checkout.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']How does that work with Ebay's buyer protection? Is that really the way to avoid Ebay raping you?[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure eBay can't take the funds out of your moneybookers or paymate accounts. eBay owns PayPal, so that's the only reason eBay can do cases directly on their side and just take your funds. I'm pretty sure that they can open a claim directly up with moneybookers/paymate just like we used to be able to do with Paypal. Fortunately, these two companies actually read both sides of the argument unlike Paypal where if you get a claim, you pretty much lose.

Monkeybookers and paymate do hold money though. It really depends on your feedback and if you're a power seller or not. One uses a rolling reserve and the other uses a standard hold on the money for X amount of days.
 
[quote name='Friend of Sonic']McCain used to be a decent fellow. Least I can remember that.

But hey enjoy having Whitman, it sounds like she threw enough money at the candidacy to buy herself a governor position this November.

EDIT: I like the Craigslist idea. Not sure if I could get fingered for charges if he complained to the police though. Seems like a longshot I would get caught.[/QUOTE]

Yeah Whitman is throwing hundreds of millions at it and still getting crushed in the polls...and that's to Jerry fucking Brown, the worst governor in the history of the state (which is saying a LOT).

Obviously don't call/email the guy to tell him "congratulations" if you do end up fucking with him. And don't brag or discuss it on an internet forum. If you post the bogus ads on craigslist, do it from a public library on a newly created craigslist and throwaway email account. I think craigslist makes you provide a phone number now though which they call for account verification, so you'll have to figure out something to get around that. Proxies and/or Tor would be great, but...I'd still do it from as an anonymous place as possible - i.e. a public library. And you still have to phone verify the craigslist account.

Oh and does anyone know of any of those old sites where you could provide an email address and they would automatically sign that email up at all sorts of spam sites (I remember these from 10 years or so ago)? I'm too lazy to dig around for multiple sites/forums posting emails and addresses etc. and last time I tried googling I couldn't find any...I guess 4chan might work.

But it used to be so damn convenient. You just throw some asshole's email addy onto some site and viola! They get spammed to hell and back.
 
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