Hey look, a real example of DVD limiting a game. (PGR4)

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dallow

dallow

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Saw this at GAF and was hoping to get some reaction without a crapload of popcorn pics.

http://www.bizarrecreations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=14802&p=

You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy.
Click to expand...
Basically, they're changing up weather effects to give tracks a different feel, but no actual day and night type stuff.
 
The denials of the masses should be fascinating - this has never been a problem for previous racing games, though; perhaps there is so much content in PGR4 that this was left out? I dunno.
 
I was going to look for the Michael Jackson popcorn gif for you, dallow, but I got lazy. :whistle2:(

I'm not sure which is more surprising: that a racing game was the first game to illustrate the size limitations of DVD, or that previous racing games to have different times of day on the same track used a very inefficient model of duplicating textures rather than setting up dynamic lighting.
 
It would have been funny if PGR4 was multiple disc, where:
Please insert disc 1 for day time.
Please insert disc 2 for sunset.
Please insert disc 3 for night time.

:lol:
 
[quote name='The Mana Knight']It would have been funny if PGR4 was multiple disc, where:
Please insert disc 1 for day time.
Please insert disc 2 for sunset.
Please insert disc 3 for night time.

:lol:[/quote]Nah, you could just download the missing tracks off Live Marketplace.
for points
 
And whatever else you'll be missing in future games Zew.

besides, i've always looked at it as buying a game machine for 400, and a BD player for 200 (except i got the 20GB so my BD player was a bargain 100 bucks)
 
[quote name='dallow']And whatever else you'll be missing in future games Zew.[/QUOTE]
If whatever features wouldn't fit on a single DVD are important enough, it'll be on a second disc.
 
That's true, day/night versions of different tracks aren't essential, just nice.
Maybe you will get them via DLC later as they're not important enough to warrant a second disc. ;)

(i say 'you' because i won't be getting this game anyway, never been a fan of pgr
i may finally go and get my 360 back because i do really want to play bioshock)
 
[quote name='dallow']Nah, you could just download the missing tracks off Live Marketplace.
for points
[/QUOTE]Oh course, they'll probably start cutting corners on content, then overprice it on the marketplace, costing around $100 total. ;) PS3 doesn't seem so expensive now. ;)

Just messing with you all.
 
Ok ok, no more "haha" comments guys.

What I'm curious is how this'll affect 360 games 2+ years down the line. (or even 1?)
 
[quote name='zewone']Oh dang, I wish MS would have charged me $200 more dollars so I can have day and night tracks!

:roll:[/quote]

As of now the fullest sku for the 360 is $475 and the fullest sku for PS3 is $499.

Did you mean $20?
 
[quote name='dallow']Ok ok, no more "haha" comments guys.

What I'm curious is how this'll affect 360 games 2+ years down the line. (or even 1?)[/quote]

2 disc games?

I'd rather the publisher spend the extra .50c to produce a second disc, instead of shoehorning in an expensive new digital storage format into my game console. And no I don't mind getting up ONCE in a 40+ hour game to swap the disc.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']As of now the fullest sku for the 360 is $475 and the fullest sku for PS3 is $499.

Did you mean $20?[/QUOTE]

The 360 is dropping $50. Also, Sony is phasing out that $499 60GB for the new, $599 version with an 80GB HD. Not taking in account of a $50 price break on the Elite, that would still make their "fullest sku" a measly $125 different. Good try though.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']As of now the fullest sku for the 360 is $475 and the fullest sku for PS3 is $499.

Did you mean $20?[/quote]Since I'm pretty sure zewone has had a 360 for a while, it was probably $399 and $599 at the time.
 
[quote name='DarkNessBear']As of now the fullest sku for the 360 is $475 and the fullest sku for PS3 is $499.

Did you mean $20?[/QUOTE]
No, I was talking about at launch for both.

I don't give a shit about an overpriced black paint job and 100 extra GBs.

In the coming months, the Premium will be $350 and the 60GB PS3s will be no more and we'll have a nice $600 80GB.

So, then the price difference will be even worse than before.

But, all of this is off topic so if you'd like to continue this discussion, PM me.
 
[quote name='valor19']The 360 is dropping $50. Also, Sony is phasing out that $499 60GB for the new, $599 version with an 80GB HD. Not taking in account of a $50 price break on the Elite, that would still make their "fullest sku" a measly $125 different. Good try though.[/QUOTE]
Hasn't happened yet (for both instannces you mentioned) so it doesn't matter yet. The 60gb PS3 being phased out is still months away. They said when stock runs out, and apparently there is a lot of them left.

360 hasn't dropped yet, but if you really want to make a big deal about it, then the difference is ~$70 after the price drop.
 
DLC on the marketplace, 1200 points for texture packs, problem solved. wait, wasn't that the business model all along? ;)
 
[quote name='whoknows']Hasn't happened yet (for both instannces you mentioned) so it doesn't matter yet. The 60gb PS3 being phased out is still months away. They said when stock runs out, and apparently there is a lot of them left.

360 hasn't dropped yet, but if you really want to make a big deal about it, then the difference is ~$70 after the price drop.[/QUOTE]
The Elite is to drop by $80, so it will be a $100 difference, $200 difference by the time the 80GBs are the only SKU.
 
[quote name='Puffa469']2 disc games?

I'd rather the publisher spend the extra .50c to produce a second disc, instead of shoehorning in an expensive new digital storage format into my game console. And no I don't mind getting up ONCE in a 40+ hour game to swap the disc.[/quote]How do you know they're going to do that for every game?
PGR4 is obviously not getting a second disc, so some content is lost.

Hmm, a 2 disc racing game.... well, Gran Turismo 2 did it. That game was huge.

The Elite is to drop by $80, so it will be a $100 difference, $200 difference by the time the 80GBs are the only SKU.
Click to expand...

Oooh, Elite is dropping $80? Damn, tempted to upgrade.....
 
[quote name='zewone']The Elite is to drop by $80, so it will be a $100 difference, $200 difference by the time the 80GBs are the only SKU.[/QUOTE]
Ah, well he said $50 so that's just what I assumed...I haven't been keeping up on the price drops ;)


And if Sony is smart, after the 60gb's are gone they'll drop the 80gb to $499.
 
[quote name='whoknows']


And if Sony is smart, after the 60gb's are gone they'll drop the 80gb to $499.[/QUOTE]


They had better be smart...if the public gets the perception that the PS3 went "up" $100 for only 20 more gbs, that wouldn't be good.
 
This one of the two things I always questioned on the 360..

1 - why stick with Dvd9..eventually it will create problems..(didn't expect it so soon)

2 - They never changed the format of their discs...so why is everything $10 more??? I can understand the ps3...that is a different format...Microsoft should have went HD-DVD..and justified the 10 dollars extra...
 
How quickly this becomes a "My system is better" conversation. Sweet.

I still like 360 more, not because of the lack of textures you cant even see when moving at a virtual 120 MPH, but for the overall feel and presentation. But I do see some PS3 games I like, Heavenly Sword, but I chose one, and I plan on sticking with that.

I like all the systems, but I personally perfer the 360. That doesnt make me a bad person right? =)
 
[quote name='Mookyjooky']How quickly this becomes a "My system is better" conversation. Sweet.[/QUOTE]
We're all forgetting the big picture.

The fact that my dad could beat up your dad.
 
[quote name='DJSteel']

2 - They never changed the format of their discs...so why is everything $10 more??? I can understand the ps3...that is a different format...Microsoft should have went HD-DVD..and justified the 10 dollars extra...[/QUOTE]
The extra $10 if not for the disc they are using (though in Sony's case, it does help pay for the extra cost of BD).

The extra $10 is for the high cost of "next-gen" videogame making. Which means, it costs developers a lot more money to make games this generation.
 
[quote name='zewone']The extra $10 if not for the disc they are using (though in Sony's case, it does help pay for the extra cost of BD).

The extra $10 is for the high cost of "next-gen" videogame making. Which means, it costs developers a lot more money to make games this generation.[/quote]

no doubt some of the games deserve the extra 10 bucks...some deserve a smack on the head... btw.. isn't Blue Dragon 2 discs???
 
[quote name='Puffa469']2 disc games?

I'd rather the publisher spend the extra .50c to produce a second disc, instead of shoehorning in an expensive new digital storage format into my game console. And no I don't mind getting up ONCE in a 40+ hour game to swap the disc.[/quote]

Seemed to work for "old" games like FF7. That didn't seem to be hurt by having multiple discs.

Lot's of computer games had multiple disks too. While this may make the PS3 seems superior, all it really shows is that the developer was too lazy to make a 2nd disc or that they'll have DLC. /thread
 
[quote name='DJSteel']no doubt some of the games deserve the extra 10 bucks...some deserve a smack on the head... btw.. isn't Blue Dragon 2 discs???[/QUOTE]
It's 3.
 
Deja vu.

back2020cartta8.jpg


...but really, the HDD and XBL make this a non-issue.
 
[quote name='zewone']Every copy of PGR4 comes with that so you can have NIGHTTIMETRAX![/quote]That is amazingly awesome!

Something smells fishy about this. I mean, no doubt there's a ton of stuff in PGR4, but they couldn't fit night time on the disc? Really?

It sounds conspiracy-theory-eque, but it does sound like a setup for them to sell you a new track, 3 new cars, a new bike, and NIGHTMODE for $15.
 
[quote name='zewone']
180px-N64-4MB_expansion1.jpg


Every copy of PGR4 comes with that so you can have NIGHTTIMETRAX![/quote]

Haha!

Something smells fishy about this. I mean, no doubt there's a ton of stuff in PGR4, but they couldn't fit night time on the disc? Really?

It sounds conspiracy-theory-eque, but it does sound like a setup for them to sell you a new track, 3 new cars, a new bike, and NIGHTMODE for $15.
Click to expand...
Hmm, didn't think about the possibility that's it's intentional.
 
[quote name='SithFran']Seemed to work for "old" games like FF7. That didn't seem to be hurt by having multiple discs.

Lot's of computer games had multiple disks too. While this may make the PS3 seems superior, all it really shows is that the developer was too lazy to make a 2nd disc or that they'll have DLC. /thread[/quote]The difference is that those games had so much content that of course the devs made it multiple disc.

But what about if the game just has a little too much data?
Like in this case with Night textures, it's not worth it to make another disc, and instead it's left out.
 
[quote name='Mookyjooky']How quickly this becomes a "My system is better" conversation. Sweet.[/QUOTE]

I noticed that most of the people insulting the 360 own one, so they're more than qualified to complain.
 
can you guys imagine a time where MS will force you to get the HD-DVD addon to play the big games...

I was so pissed that the HD-DVD drive wasn't included in the elite.. that gave them the opportunity to do that...and they passed..
 
[quote name='dallow']Haha!

Hmm, didn't think about the possibility that's it's intentional.[/quote]

what MS holding content back to make it available on DLC??? Nah not MS...
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Deja vu...but really, the HDD and XBL make this a non-issue.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, because, only for the moment, we're talking about an arguably nonsignificant portion of a game. Now, I understand that slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy, but what happens when "nighttime tracks" becomes something omitted that could be a substantial portion of gameplay? Whether additional quests in games, extra characters...whatever. Today's "nighttime tracks" is an indication of something larger.

This also is not the first example of DVD's limited capacity - others have mentioned that multi-disc games are tolerable, and in some cases (genres, such as RPG) the norm. They were in the past. Nobody was pissed because Final Fantasy Whatever was 3-4 CDs.

What *is* significant about this is that it is a racing game - a second disc wouldn't be prudent to gameplay, because it would be unlikely that you would reach a point in the game that would instruct you to switch to disc 2. Some tracks/options would require switching before continuing with gameplay - like Carmen Sandiego games on th' ol' Apple II.

Some genres are not suitable for multi-disc games; IMO, this includes fighters, sports games, and racing games. Gamers have shown themselves to be able to live with single-player platformers (to some degree), and as already mentioned, are fine with RPGs on several discs.

As for XBL making this moot, to some degree you are right, but you're trading in the opportunity to have "full game content" (a meaningless phrase anymore, IMO) all at once and at the $60 pricepoint for the future *possibility* of said content, and having to pay a premium for it. I'd rather have paid the extra for the PS3 upfront, given those options. We'll see how that pans out (if future iterations of Madden/NHL/whatever have more content on the PS3 version relative to the 360).
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I disagree, because, only for the moment, we're talking about an arguably nonsignificant portion of a game. Now, I understand that slippery slope arguments are a logical fallacy, but what happens when "nighttime tracks" becomes something omitted that could be a substantial portion of gameplay? Whether additional quests in games, extra characters...whatever. Today's "nighttime tracks" is an indication of something larger.

This also is not the first example of DVD's limited capacity - others have mentioned that multi-disc games are tolerable, and in some cases (genres, such as RPG) the norm. They were in the past. Nobody was pissed because Final Fantasy Whatever was 3-4 CDs.

What *is* significant about this is that it is a racing game - a second disc wouldn't be prudent to gameplay, because it would be unlikely that you would reach a point in the game that would instruct you to switch to disc 2. Some tracks/options would require switching before continuing with gameplay - like Carmen Sandiego games on th' ol' Apple II.

Some genres are not suitable for multi-disc games; IMO, this includes fighters, sports games, and racing games. Gamers have shown themselves to be able to live with single-player platformers (to some degree), and as already mentioned, are fine with RPGs on several discs.

As for XBL making this moot, to some degree you are right, but you're trading in the opportunity to have "full game content" (a meaningless phrase anymore, IMO) all at once and at the $60 pricepoint for the future *possibility* of said content, and having to pay a premium for it. I'd rather have paid the extra for the PS3 upfront, given those options. We'll see how that pans out (if future iterations of Madden/NHL/whatever have more content on the PS3 version relative to the 360).[/quote]

can you imagine... right before round 3 of a fight...Please insert disc 3
 
[quote name='zewone']

Every copy of PGR4 comes with that so you can have NIGHTTIMETRAX![/QUOTE]
Speaking of which I need one of those :lol:
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Free, huh? You really expect free? ;)[/quote]

Oh hell no. I just felt this thread was gonna have enough cynicism in it without me adding my own.

I also wouldnt be surprised if this was a preplanned feature cut in order to test the waters for a paid Live download.

If every SKU of the 360 would have come with a HHD, we wouldnt even be having this discussion. Game discs would come with compressed files on them and just move some of their larger textures and whatnot to the HDD.

I know that COD4 has the 'HDD Required' icon on it, and I think more games should start doing the same.

And as someone mentioned earlier, other racing games have done 2 discs in the past. GT2 had an arcade disc and a career mode disc.

Multiple disc games are not the end of the world, and between that, and required HDD storage for certain aspects of games, I think we can avoid the 'games on HD DVD' question for another few years at least.
 
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