Hey look, a real example of DVD limiting a game. (PGR4)
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stnkygrngo
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i cant play GoW or PGR3 or a decent version of NCAA 08 on PS3. fanboys are fags.
Maybe I'm retarded and maybe this is answered later in that thread, but if they can make it bright/sunny/yellow and stormy/dark, why can't they just take the darker storm weather effect thing, make it ever darker, and call it night (besides the need for lights to come on)?
[quote name='dallow']That wasn't a limitation though, just a decision by the devs to get the game out sooner than they should have.
(i would have preferred waiting)
They released it early in Japan, with no online, and delayed for NA with it.[/QUOTE]
my two sentences were unrelated.
what i meant to say was that the ps3 has it's limitations as well. Developers have to work with what they've got.
(i would have preferred waiting)
They released it early in Japan, with no online, and delayed for NA with it.[/QUOTE]
my two sentences were unrelated.
what i meant to say was that the ps3 has it's limitations as well. Developers have to work with what they've got.
Jimbo Slice
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The real question is, who's the most gay in love with PS3?
Dallow, Mana Knight or whoknows?
Dallow, Mana Knight or whoknows?
hiccupleftovers
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Yawn, Zew's already covered this thread good it seems from the bit I've read.
Once again, a thread basically gets built around a straw-man argument.
OP: "DVDs have limits."
Well, yeah. Who, exactly, was suggesting they don't? The elephant in the room is that Blu-Ray disks and HD-DVDs do, too. They're all finite media, right? Are they also inherently flawed because it's only a matter of time before some developer manages to fill a whole disk with uncompressed audio or whatever? No. Somehow -- somehow -- the games on those disks are still playable. And the whole crazy world keeps right on spinnin'!
Sorry, but just because you can cram the full version of Nosferatu in The Darkness, or half a BR worth of uncompressed textures in Lair, or all of Hardboiled on the same disk as Stranglehold, or, yes, night tracks, doesn't exactly convince me of the inherent superiority of the larger media.
OP: "DVDs have limits."
Well, yeah. Who, exactly, was suggesting they don't? The elephant in the room is that Blu-Ray disks and HD-DVDs do, too. They're all finite media, right? Are they also inherently flawed because it's only a matter of time before some developer manages to fill a whole disk with uncompressed audio or whatever? No. Somehow -- somehow -- the games on those disks are still playable. And the whole crazy world keeps right on spinnin'!
Sorry, but just because you can cram the full version of Nosferatu in The Darkness, or half a BR worth of uncompressed textures in Lair, or all of Hardboiled on the same disk as Stranglehold, or, yes, night tracks, doesn't exactly convince me of the inherent superiority of the larger media.
hiccupleftovers
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[quote name='dallow']Yawn, better keep reading.[/quote]
And you are
s I trust Zew.
And you are
s I trust Zew.
RelentlessRolento
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I smell a bit of bestiality going on here.
[quote name='Richlough']I don't think MS wants 2 bootable discs for one game to ever happen .
Example GT2 PS1 , Tiger Woods 2004 GC .
I also think too much room makes the devs lazy .
I wonder how much extra space is on the Motorstorm disc ?[/QUOTE]
Blue Dragon is 3 DVDs.
Example GT2 PS1 , Tiger Woods 2004 GC .
I also think too much room makes the devs lazy .
I wonder how much extra space is on the Motorstorm disc ?[/QUOTE]
Blue Dragon is 3 DVDs.
[quote name='RedvsBlue']According to Thomas96's logic, DS games must be the biggest ripoff in gaming right now...[/QUOTE]
You damn right, and they don't go down in price.... (barely). lol
Maybe I'm different cause I've been around games for so long...
Transformers: Autobots 29.99 (DS)
Transformers: Decepticons 29.99(DS)
vs.
Transformers the Movie 39.99(psp) = Transformers Autobots + Transformers Decepticons
I don't care who you are, if you bought one of those Transformer DS games you got ripped off.
You damn right, and they don't go down in price.... (barely). lol
Maybe I'm different cause I've been around games for so long...
Transformers: Autobots 29.99 (DS)
Transformers: Decepticons 29.99(DS)
vs.
Transformers the Movie 39.99(psp) = Transformers Autobots + Transformers Decepticons
I don't care who you are, if you bought one of those Transformer DS games you got ripped off.
[quote name='trq']Once again, a thread basically gets built around a straw-man argument.
OP: "DVDs have limits."
Well, yeah. Who, exactly, was suggesting they don't? The elephant in the room is that Blu-Ray disks and HD-DVDs do, too. They're all finite media, right? Are they also inherently flawed because it's only a matter of time before some developer manages to fill a whole disk with uncompressed audio or whatever? No. Somehow -- somehow -- the games on those disks are still playable. And the whole crazy world keeps right on spinnin'!
Sorry, but just because you can cram the full version of Nosferatu in The Darkness, or half a BR worth of uncompressed textures in Lair, or all of Hardboiled on the same disk as Stranglehold, or, yes, night tracks, doesn't exactly convince me of the inherent superiority of the larger media.[/quote]
Except 20 GB > 8 GB
There is compression and there is limits to it. Try to fold a piece of paper over and over again and see how it gets harder and harder the smaller it gets. Plus heavy compression can cause quality issues.
It's a simple fact that media with more storage IS superior. I mean its impossible to argue it isn't. Thats like saying 10 isn't bigger then 5.
OP: "DVDs have limits."
Well, yeah. Who, exactly, was suggesting they don't? The elephant in the room is that Blu-Ray disks and HD-DVDs do, too. They're all finite media, right? Are they also inherently flawed because it's only a matter of time before some developer manages to fill a whole disk with uncompressed audio or whatever? No. Somehow -- somehow -- the games on those disks are still playable. And the whole crazy world keeps right on spinnin'!
Sorry, but just because you can cram the full version of Nosferatu in The Darkness, or half a BR worth of uncompressed textures in Lair, or all of Hardboiled on the same disk as Stranglehold, or, yes, night tracks, doesn't exactly convince me of the inherent superiority of the larger media.[/quote]
Except 20 GB > 8 GB
There is compression and there is limits to it. Try to fold a piece of paper over and over again and see how it gets harder and harder the smaller it gets. Plus heavy compression can cause quality issues.
It's a simple fact that media with more storage IS superior. I mean its impossible to argue it isn't. Thats like saying 10 isn't bigger then 5.
[quote name='trq']Once again, a thread basically gets built around a straw-man argument.
OP: "DVDs have limits."
Well, yeah. Who, exactly, was suggesting they don't? The elephant in the room is that Blu-Ray disks and HD-DVDs do, too. They're all finite media, right? Are they also inherently flawed because it's only a matter of time before some developer manages to fill a whole disk with uncompressed audio or whatever? No. Somehow -- somehow -- the games on those disks are still playable. And the whole crazy world keeps right on spinnin'!
Sorry, but just because you can cram the full version of Nosferatu in The Darkness, or half a BR worth of uncompressed textures in Lair, or all of Hardboiled on the same disk as Stranglehold, or, yes, night tracks, doesn't exactly convince me of the inherent superiority of the larger media.[/quote]
Uh, EVERYONE!
EVERYONE was saying how something larger than DVD media would be needed for the next generation as DVDs were just fine now with all these large 360 games.
This is the whole reason I posted this thread, and a few GOOD 360 fans agreed that this is a good example.
And probably first example that we know of that really affects a game.
Not counting the extra video crap in The Darkness.
I'm not trying to get into the "BD or HD DVD is better!" type of argument, I'm simply pointing out that DVD media is affecting games now.
And will probably do so even more in the next year onwards.
OP: "DVDs have limits."
Well, yeah. Who, exactly, was suggesting they don't? The elephant in the room is that Blu-Ray disks and HD-DVDs do, too. They're all finite media, right? Are they also inherently flawed because it's only a matter of time before some developer manages to fill a whole disk with uncompressed audio or whatever? No. Somehow -- somehow -- the games on those disks are still playable. And the whole crazy world keeps right on spinnin'!
Sorry, but just because you can cram the full version of Nosferatu in The Darkness, or half a BR worth of uncompressed textures in Lair, or all of Hardboiled on the same disk as Stranglehold, or, yes, night tracks, doesn't exactly convince me of the inherent superiority of the larger media.[/quote]
Uh, EVERYONE!
EVERYONE was saying how something larger than DVD media would be needed for the next generation as DVDs were just fine now with all these large 360 games.
This is the whole reason I posted this thread, and a few GOOD 360 fans agreed that this is a good example.
And probably first example that we know of that really affects a game.
Not counting the extra video crap in The Darkness.
I'm not trying to get into the "BD or HD DVD is better!" type of argument, I'm simply pointing out that DVD media is affecting games now.
And will probably do so even more in the next year onwards.
[quote name='Thomas96']You damn right, and they don't go down in price.... (barely). lol
Maybe I'm different cause I've been around games for so long...
Transformers: Autobots 29.99 (DS)
Transformers: Decepticons 29.99(DS)
vs.
Transformers the Movie 39.99(psp) = Transformers Autobots + Transformers Decepticons
I don't care who you are, if you bought one of those Transformer DS games you got ripped off.[/QUOTE]
Wait, wait, wait, now you're saying a PSP game is a better value than a DS game? You're so damn helmet-special its almost endearing...
Maybe I'm different cause I've been around games for so long...
Transformers: Autobots 29.99 (DS)
Transformers: Decepticons 29.99(DS)
vs.
Transformers the Movie 39.99(psp) = Transformers Autobots + Transformers Decepticons
I don't care who you are, if you bought one of those Transformer DS games you got ripped off.[/QUOTE]
Wait, wait, wait, now you're saying a PSP game is a better value than a DS game? You're so damn helmet-special its almost endearing...
sparkticus
CAG Veteran
[SIZE=-1]Doesn't the 360 reset the conosle when you eject the tray? I figure if that is hard written into the 360, then multiple discs won't mean crap if you have to reset your console to swap them.
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
lordxixor101
CAGiversary!
[quote name='sparkticus'][SIZE=-1]Doesn't the 360 reset the conosle when you eject the tray? I figure if that is hard written into the 360, then multiple discs won't mean crap if you have to reset your console to swap them.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if it's hardwired in or not. But, this wouldn't eliminate multiple disc games, you would just need to save the data before you switch discs.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if it's hardwired in or not. But, this wouldn't eliminate multiple disc games, you would just need to save the data before you switch discs.
sparkticus
CAG Veteran
[quote name='lordxixor101']I'm not sure if it's hardwired in or not. But, this wouldn't eliminate multiple disc games, you would just need to save the data before you switch discs.[/quote]
I'm not saying it would be pointless, just silly and annoying. Perhaps the game itself could eject the tray so it would bypass the "eject button reset"
I'm not saying it would be pointless, just silly and annoying. Perhaps the game itself could eject the tray so it would bypass the "eject button reset"
[quote name='RedvsBlue']Wait, wait, wait, now you're saying a PSP game is a better value than a DS game? You're so damn helmet-special its almost endearing...[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and he's using the
ing Transformers games as examples. The rip-off there is that people bought a shitty game.
Yeah, and he's using the
ing Transformers games as examples. The rip-off there is that people bought a shitty game.[quote name='Brian9824']It's a simple fact that media with more storage IS superior. I mean its impossible to argue it isn't. Thats like saying 10 isn't bigger then 5.[/quote]No, that's like saying 10 is better than 5.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.
[quote name='evanft']Yeah, and he's using the ing Transformers games as examples. The rip-off there is that people bought a shitty game.[/QUOTE]
you guys are rediculous.. of course its not like that for every game, but in the case of the transformers game.. 60 dollars for 2 DS games that collectively have basically the same game as the 40 PSP game...
[edit] this isnt a DS vs PSP thing its a matter of value, all the transformer games were shitty, but Nintendo is getting over on people with these two game versions, Pokemon Diamond and Peal... same damn game, except for different set of text, and probably pallate swaps of colors on pokemon.
ing Transformers games as examples. The rip-off there is that people bought a shitty game.[/QUOTE]you guys are rediculous.. of course its not like that for every game, but in the case of the transformers game.. 60 dollars for 2 DS games that collectively have basically the same game as the 40 PSP game...
[edit] this isnt a DS vs PSP thing its a matter of value, all the transformer games were shitty, but Nintendo is getting over on people with these two game versions, Pokemon Diamond and Peal... same damn game, except for different set of text, and probably pallate swaps of colors on pokemon.
BattleChicken
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[quote name='daroga']No, that's like saying 10 is better than 5.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/quote]
Another related point is that the DVD drive in, for example, the Xbox 360 is 40% faster than the Blu Ray drive in the PS3.. Aren't developers leaning on installing parts of PS3 games to speed up the slow data load times?
I find it somewhat ironic that the games on the 'vastly superior next gen format touted for its storage' has to eat up space on the hard drive to run the game fast... But I think THAT speaks to the programmer more than the media anyways..
'Limitless space' just leads to shoddy programming. I am already familar with the texture argument.. so no need to go into that.. besides.. the memory on the video card is the real limiting factor for textures, not disc storage space.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/quote]
Another related point is that the DVD drive in, for example, the Xbox 360 is 40% faster than the Blu Ray drive in the PS3.. Aren't developers leaning on installing parts of PS3 games to speed up the slow data load times?
I find it somewhat ironic that the games on the 'vastly superior next gen format touted for its storage' has to eat up space on the hard drive to run the game fast... But I think THAT speaks to the programmer more than the media anyways..
'Limitless space' just leads to shoddy programming. I am already familar with the texture argument.. so no need to go into that.. besides.. the memory on the video card is the real limiting factor for textures, not disc storage space.
[quote name='daroga']No, that's like saying 10 is better than 5.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/QUOTE]
More space is helpful now because we dealing in HD content now, which requires more space. More space on the Wii and DS, PSP - but for the PS3 and 360 more space.
getting back on topic... in this case, more space, more textures, could lead to more cars.. The whole problem with Blu ray is that its too much space for whats needed at this time...
[edit] - Why would bizarre creations even indicate that they've had some limitations due to DVD, I'm sure this isn't the first time that this type of limitation has occured in any dvd game. Maybe they rather be working on a Blu ray or HD-DVD console.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/QUOTE]
More space is helpful now because we dealing in HD content now, which requires more space. More space on the Wii and DS, PSP - but for the PS3 and 360 more space.
getting back on topic... in this case, more space, more textures, could lead to more cars.. The whole problem with Blu ray is that its too much space for whats needed at this time...
[edit] - Why would bizarre creations even indicate that they've had some limitations due to DVD, I'm sure this isn't the first time that this type of limitation has occured in any dvd game. Maybe they rather be working on a Blu ray or HD-DVD console.
[quote name='BattleChicken']Another related point is that the DVD drive in, for example, the Xbox 360 is 40% faster than the Blu Ray drive in the PS3.. Aren't developers leaning on installing parts of PS3 games to speed up the slow data load times?
I find it somewhat ironic that the games on the 'vastly superior next gen format touted for its storage' has to eat up space on the hard drive to run the game fast... But I think THAT speaks to the programmer more than the media anyways..
'Limitless space' just leads to shoddy programming. I am already familar with the texture argument.. so no need to go into that.. besides.. the memory on the video card is the real limiting factor for textures, not disc storage space.[/quote]You're real late to the endless battles that have been on these forums on the usage of DVD and BD for games.
Yes, the BD drive is slower.
CD and DVD drives didn't start at 32x, 48x, etc from the start did they?
How do you know it leads to shoddy programming?
It may allow for that, but how do you know devs aren't trying hard to make games the best they can be given what they have to work with?
As for textures, they've gotten around the limited memory in both systems via texture streaming, something you see in Gears and R&C, (and Lair I believe.)
I find it somewhat ironic that the games on the 'vastly superior next gen format touted for its storage' has to eat up space on the hard drive to run the game fast... But I think THAT speaks to the programmer more than the media anyways..
'Limitless space' just leads to shoddy programming. I am already familar with the texture argument.. so no need to go into that.. besides.. the memory on the video card is the real limiting factor for textures, not disc storage space.[/quote]You're real late to the endless battles that have been on these forums on the usage of DVD and BD for games.
Yes, the BD drive is slower.
CD and DVD drives didn't start at 32x, 48x, etc from the start did they?
How do you know it leads to shoddy programming?
It may allow for that, but how do you know devs aren't trying hard to make games the best they can be given what they have to work with?
As for textures, they've gotten around the limited memory in both systems via texture streaming, something you see in Gears and R&C, (and Lair I believe.)
[quote name='dallow']You're real late to the endless battles that have been on these forums on the usage of DVD and BD for games.
Yes, the BD drive is slower.
CD and DVD drives didn't start at 32x, 48x, etc from the start did they?
How do you know it leads to shoddy programming?
It may allow for that, but how do you know devs aren't trying hard to make games the best they can be given what they have to work with?
As for textures, they've gotten around the limited memory in both systems via texture streaming, something you see in Gears and R&C, (and Lair I believe.)[/QUOTE]
shoddy programming transcends, all hardware, and formats. We've seen shoddy programming from E.T. (2600), to Madden 08(ps3) you have to make the best with what you've got.
what does Forza and GT5 use for their lighting?
Yes, the BD drive is slower.
CD and DVD drives didn't start at 32x, 48x, etc from the start did they?
How do you know it leads to shoddy programming?
It may allow for that, but how do you know devs aren't trying hard to make games the best they can be given what they have to work with?
As for textures, they've gotten around the limited memory in both systems via texture streaming, something you see in Gears and R&C, (and Lair I believe.)[/QUOTE]
shoddy programming transcends, all hardware, and formats. We've seen shoddy programming from E.T. (2600), to Madden 08(ps3) you have to make the best with what you've got.
what does Forza and GT5 use for their lighting?
[quote name='Thomas96']shoddy programming transcends, all hardware, and formats. We've seen shoddy programming from E.T. (2600), to Madden 08(ps3) you have to make the best with what you've got.
what does Forza and GT5 use for their lighting?[/quote]I know GT5 uses HDR lighting, I'm sure Forza does as well.
what does Forza and GT5 use for their lighting?[/quote]I know GT5 uses HDR lighting, I'm sure Forza does as well.
V
Virtua
Guest
I'd have no problem with DVD games if Microsoft wasn't jerking us around with the $10 price increase this gen.
There's really no reason for DVD titles to be priced more than $40, to tell the truth. I hate videogames' pricing structure. We'll never be mass market until we get the MSRP of new release games down to ~$30.
Somtimes you can make the connection to TV-DVD prices.. but when shit like the darkness is taking 7-10 hours to finish, that should be a $30 game. NO EXCUSES.
And Thomas96 is a laugh and a half. Blu Ray puts Sony in 3rd and out of most people's price range/mindshare this generation. End of story. I mostly take issue with his estimation that PS3 gets you "More Game" because of the storage space. I bet he was a big myst/riven fan back in the genesis of CD storage. SOO MUCH CONTENT I MUST BUY!
Personally, I've got more VC games stored on my Wii's 512mb of storage than there exist PS3 games that I'd want to play.
There's really no reason for DVD titles to be priced more than $40, to tell the truth. I hate videogames' pricing structure. We'll never be mass market until we get the MSRP of new release games down to ~$30.
Somtimes you can make the connection to TV-DVD prices.. but when shit like the darkness is taking 7-10 hours to finish, that should be a $30 game. NO EXCUSES.
And Thomas96 is a laugh and a half. Blu Ray puts Sony in 3rd and out of most people's price range/mindshare this generation. End of story. I mostly take issue with his estimation that PS3 gets you "More Game" because of the storage space. I bet he was a big myst/riven fan back in the genesis of CD storage. SOO MUCH CONTENT I MUST BUY!
Personally, I've got more VC games stored on my Wii's 512mb of storage than there exist PS3 games that I'd want to play.
[quote name='jer7583']I'd have no problem with DVD games if Microsoft wasn't jerking us around with the $10 price increase this gen.
There's really no reason for DVD titles to be priced more than $40, to tell the truth. I hate videogames' pricing structure. We'll never be mass market until we get the MSRP of new release games down to ~$30.
Somtimes you can make the connection to TV-DVD prices.. but when shit like the darkness is taking 7-10 hours to finish, that should be a $30 game. NO EXCUSES.
And Thomas96 is a laugh and a half. Blu Ray puts Sony in 3rd and out of most people's price range/mindshare this generation. End of story. I mostly take issue with his estimation that PS3 gets you "More Game" because of the storage space. I bet he was a big myst/riven fan back in the genesis of CD storage. SOO MUCH CONTENT I MUST BUY!
Personally, I've got more VC games stored on my Wii's 512mb of storage than there exist PS3 games that I'd want to play.[/QUOTE]
Sony is 3rd because they're the most expensive, Sony isn't 3rd due to poor quality of software or hardware. If the orignal CD player when it first hit the market was included in the Playstation 1, then it would have been 600 [or more] same w/ the Sega CD. Technology costs when it first comes to the market.
Space has done a lot for games, thats why we have a Wii with DVD and not another cartridge. Space was probably what held the gamecube back.
I could pay 60 dollars for forza 2, that's a true next gen game, 720p/1080i, that's damn good. it uses HDR... w/ at least 350 cars.. PGR4 shouldn't be using space as an issue. That's why I say perhaps Blu ray is a little bit before its time, its obvious that next gen games can be output on DVD. But hell since the space is there, lets see devs use it to make more game, that's something that's going to occur in the future.
At this time, developers aren't really using the blu ray disc space correctly, in the future, there are going to be some games on blu ray discs that will be impossible to fully fit on DVD. Plus it doesn't have to equal to more game, it could be used to improve load time, like how Oblivion was done [duplicate data on the disc] or to include extras all on one disc like Stranglehold. Any resouce, from space on a disc, to the power of a GPU has to be taken advantage of. Blu ray games aren't giving you more game, but because the space is there, one day developers will start to put out more game to take advantage of the space. Gran theft auto perhaps could have more than New York city if was truly optimized for blu ray, or maybe more New York, more environments.
There's really no reason for DVD titles to be priced more than $40, to tell the truth. I hate videogames' pricing structure. We'll never be mass market until we get the MSRP of new release games down to ~$30.
Somtimes you can make the connection to TV-DVD prices.. but when shit like the darkness is taking 7-10 hours to finish, that should be a $30 game. NO EXCUSES.
And Thomas96 is a laugh and a half. Blu Ray puts Sony in 3rd and out of most people's price range/mindshare this generation. End of story. I mostly take issue with his estimation that PS3 gets you "More Game" because of the storage space. I bet he was a big myst/riven fan back in the genesis of CD storage. SOO MUCH CONTENT I MUST BUY!
Personally, I've got more VC games stored on my Wii's 512mb of storage than there exist PS3 games that I'd want to play.[/QUOTE]
Sony is 3rd because they're the most expensive, Sony isn't 3rd due to poor quality of software or hardware. If the orignal CD player when it first hit the market was included in the Playstation 1, then it would have been 600 [or more] same w/ the Sega CD. Technology costs when it first comes to the market.
Space has done a lot for games, thats why we have a Wii with DVD and not another cartridge. Space was probably what held the gamecube back.
I could pay 60 dollars for forza 2, that's a true next gen game, 720p/1080i, that's damn good. it uses HDR... w/ at least 350 cars.. PGR4 shouldn't be using space as an issue. That's why I say perhaps Blu ray is a little bit before its time, its obvious that next gen games can be output on DVD. But hell since the space is there, lets see devs use it to make more game, that's something that's going to occur in the future.
At this time, developers aren't really using the blu ray disc space correctly, in the future, there are going to be some games on blu ray discs that will be impossible to fully fit on DVD. Plus it doesn't have to equal to more game, it could be used to improve load time, like how Oblivion was done [duplicate data on the disc] or to include extras all on one disc like Stranglehold. Any resouce, from space on a disc, to the power of a GPU has to be taken advantage of. Blu ray games aren't giving you more game, but because the space is there, one day developers will start to put out more game to take advantage of the space. Gran theft auto perhaps could have more than New York city if was truly optimized for blu ray, or maybe more New York, more environments.
[quote name='daroga']No, that's like saying 10 is better than 5.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/quote]
Except a PS3 and 360 game cost the exact same to us so your whole argument is moot. Bigger storage space AND the same price as a 360 game. Sure the system itself might be more expensive but thats not a factor for the game.
If we start factoring in system prices we will need to factor in online costs, controller costs, and start getting into a whole argument over whats needed to play games and that will just get messy.
The point is Sony can charge the exact same for a Blu-ray disc with VASTLY more room for developers to work for the same price as a normal DVD game.
Look at it this way. It's like trying to dress in a really cramped room, it might be possible to do it but it will take alot more effort and time.
The fact that they have extra storage space means they don't need to try to squeeze every KB out of the disc and can use some loose compression and not have to worry about it so much.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/quote]
Except a PS3 and 360 game cost the exact same to us so your whole argument is moot. Bigger storage space AND the same price as a 360 game. Sure the system itself might be more expensive but thats not a factor for the game.
If we start factoring in system prices we will need to factor in online costs, controller costs, and start getting into a whole argument over whats needed to play games and that will just get messy.
The point is Sony can charge the exact same for a Blu-ray disc with VASTLY more room for developers to work for the same price as a normal DVD game.
Look at it this way. It's like trying to dress in a really cramped room, it might be possible to do it but it will take alot more effort and time.
The fact that they have extra storage space means they don't need to try to squeeze every KB out of the disc and can use some loose compression and not have to worry about it so much.
[quote name='daroga']No, that's like saying 10 is better than 5.
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/QUOTE]
10 is better than 5. Two digits is better than one...besides, 5 is a stupid prime number. I hate them so much
In some cases, bigger isn't better. Cost is a good factor in that. The old, big SNES and Genesis carts brought up before are a good example. Maybe the game was bigger, but did it add $10, or $20 worth of "goodness" to it? That's in the eye of the consumer.
But to say bigger = better is an opinion, and not necessarily a well thought out one at that.[/QUOTE]
10 is better than 5. Two digits is better than one...besides, 5 is a stupid prime number. I hate them so much
BattleChicken
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[quote name='dallow']You're real late to the endless battles that have been on these forums on the usage of DVD and BD for games.
Yes, the BD drive is slower.
CD and DVD drives didn't start at 32x, 48x, etc from the start did they?
How do you know it leads to shoddy programming?
It may allow for that, but how do you know devs aren't trying hard to make games the best they can be given what they have to work with?
As for textures, they've gotten around the limited memory in both systems via texture streaming, something you see in Gears and R&C, (and Lair I believe.)[/quote]
While I see your point, I don't think it matters much in relation to what I said.
The fact that BD will get faster is irrelevant, as what is in the PS3 is slower NOW. That is fact. I agree that BD will get faster over time -- it doesn't change that the BD currently used IS slower.
Regarding shoddy programming. Perhaps it would be better to say 'worse than it could be' programming. Neccesity is the mother of invention. When you have a limitation that hampers the quality of your project, you have to work past it. If you have no roadblocks, you don't bother to improve what isn't broken.
Good developers will make good code, bad developers OR good developers pressed for time care about gettting it done as quickly as possible. So, the fact that any good dev will do the BEST they can isn't the norm. People have deadlines.. and sometimes settle for less than a less than optimal product.
Look at it this way.. If the texture/memory limit didn't exist, do you think anyone would have bothered to develop a streaming technique?
Yes, the BD drive is slower.
CD and DVD drives didn't start at 32x, 48x, etc from the start did they?
How do you know it leads to shoddy programming?
It may allow for that, but how do you know devs aren't trying hard to make games the best they can be given what they have to work with?
As for textures, they've gotten around the limited memory in both systems via texture streaming, something you see in Gears and R&C, (and Lair I believe.)[/quote]
While I see your point, I don't think it matters much in relation to what I said.
The fact that BD will get faster is irrelevant, as what is in the PS3 is slower NOW. That is fact. I agree that BD will get faster over time -- it doesn't change that the BD currently used IS slower.
Regarding shoddy programming. Perhaps it would be better to say 'worse than it could be' programming. Neccesity is the mother of invention. When you have a limitation that hampers the quality of your project, you have to work past it. If you have no roadblocks, you don't bother to improve what isn't broken.
Good developers will make good code, bad developers OR good developers pressed for time care about gettting it done as quickly as possible. So, the fact that any good dev will do the BEST they can isn't the norm. People have deadlines.. and sometimes settle for less than a less than optimal product.
Look at it this way.. If the texture/memory limit didn't exist, do you think anyone would have bothered to develop a streaming technique?
Remember, Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver .. "oh we had to cut out portions of the game due to space..." BS... I remember there was a guide in PSM showed you how to beat bosses, and then when the game came out those bosses and levels were cut from the game... total debacle.
I guarantee you'll never here that excuse again on any PS3 game.
-but in defense of DVD, there's enough space there, FORZA set the bar 350 cars, HDR lighting 720/1080i HD, solid gameplay replays in 30fps (w/ hard drive). If you don't like space, and can't understand its worth for games, and how it could contribute to you getting more game, well.. hey there's a sucker born every minute. Every minute...
Eidos ripped me off, - that's why I never bought part two, cause it should have been included in part one.
I guarantee you'll never here that excuse again on any PS3 game.
-but in defense of DVD, there's enough space there, FORZA set the bar 350 cars, HDR lighting 720/1080i HD, solid gameplay replays in 30fps (w/ hard drive). If you don't like space, and can't understand its worth for games, and how it could contribute to you getting more game, well.. hey there's a sucker born every minute. Every minute...
Eidos ripped me off, - that's why I never bought part two, cause it should have been included in part one.
[quote name='BattleChicken']Look at it this way.. If the texture/memory limit didn't exist, do you think anyone would have bothered to develop a streaming technique?[/quote]
So yes, it's slower now, but the benefits outweight the load times.
(and with minor HDD cacheing, are about the same as most games)
DVD has been around for years and years. But they couldn't get these textures on there for PGR4.
There comes a point when you really do need more space.
Even when it's not for luxuries such as uncompressed sound and 1080p video.
So yes, it's slower now, but the benefits outweight the load times.
(and with minor HDD cacheing, are about the same as most games)
DVD has been around for years and years. But they couldn't get these textures on there for PGR4.
There comes a point when you really do need more space.
Even when it's not for luxuries such as uncompressed sound and 1080p video.
terribledeli
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http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
"We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will."
"We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will."
LinkinPrime
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Looks like it was all a lie:
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
End banterring of DVD...
As I'm sure you've seen, some of the comments made on our forum have been blown out of all proportion. This has been reported on certain web sites. It seems that a number of fanboys have jumped on the topic... sigh. So it's time we cleared this one up...
When we started designing PGR4 our primary goals were to create a great and unique experience over and above PGR3, to push the hardware as far as we could, and obviously to ensure that we give great value for money. DVD size is absolutely not a factor that we consider when designing our games... and PGR4 is no exception. DVD9 gives us more than we need to create a fabulous experience for you guys.
The previous game, PGR3, had five environments. That's how much we could create given our time and resources for that game. With the longer development cycle we've had for PGR4, as well as the advantage of having final hardware, we wanted to create a far bigger and better game by this time including 10 environments, as well as a whole bunch of new gameplay features.
Rather than having two "fixed" times of day, this time around we decided to use our time to create a dynamic weather system, which effectively creates a much more dramatic palette from which to work with. To show you where we're coming from, have a look at this screenshot crop sheet. This is something we use internally to compare our environments, lighting, and weather effects... but it's certainly useful for demonstrating the breadth of the game here!
We've never had to cut content to fit on the disc, and we probably never will.
Each next-gen format has its own merits. We should know, as we're currently developing games for all of them in one form or another. It's not a case of one system having less of this, and the other having more of that. As developers we are given a fixed platform, and that's what we work with. At the end of the day we're games developers, and we try to create the best we can irrespective of platform. We hope you end up agreeing with our design decisions when you see the game for yourself.
http://www.bizarrecreations.com/article.php?article_id=5257
End banterring of DVD...
Hehe, NOW they say they "rather use"
So still no time differences, just weather changes.
Which is what I said in the OP!
They're trying to soften the blow by saying they didn't cut it, rather, decided not to use it.
When they specifically said it wouldn't fit.
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