How Conservatives Like Rick Perry Will Kill Higher Education and Knowledge Generation

dmaul1114

Banned
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ower/2011/07/26/gIQAyfrvsI_story.html?hpid=z3

I hesitated to post this as I really don't have the energy for another long debate over the purpose of research universities, but this article really got my blood boiling.

I'll just post a few choice things about it that would destroy the purpose of research universities. And comment briefly on them.

The initiative stayed pretty much under the radar until last fall, when it became public that Perry’s alma mater, Texas A&M University, had compiled a spreadsheet ranking faculty members according to whether they were earning their keep or costing the school money.

*snip*

Professors are wasting time and money churning out esoteric, unproductive research, Sandefer and the foundation have argued, when they should be putting in more hours in the classroom. Among their suggestions: that individual faculty members be measured as profit or loss centers, that research budgets be separated from teaching budgets, and that student evaluations help determine how much professors are paid.

*snip*

It posted a 265-page spreadsheet on the Internet that calculated faculty salaries against their teaching loads and the research funding they brought in. Individual professors were labeled “black” if they were generating more than they cost and “red” if they were not.

Some faculty began referring to themselves as the “red brigade.”


All this focus on the monetary worth of professor's research totally flies in the face of the purpose of research universities. Their whole purpose is to generate knowledge in areas where there isn't clear profit incentive. The private industry takes care of any research and development where there is big money to be made (i.e. medicine, technology etc.). Sure, some of that is still done in universities. But the main purpose of a research university is that bright people can come and have a secure job to generate new knowledge in their field even if there isn't money in it. Professors earn the freedom to do such work through their teaching and sharing their knowledge with students.

Some research will involve landing grants to fund the research (i.e. work that requires labs, equipment or field work/travel, anything that needs to higher research assistants etc.) and some professors do pay their own salaries (or more than that) through the overhead the university takes out of research grants.

But there is plenty of important research that doesn't require any grant funding (and is difficult to get funding for). i.e. any work that's analyzing already collected data and so on. Or purely theoretical work which is creating new theories to later be tested through field research etc. All this stuff is crucial to moving fields forward, and it's absurd to punish people doing this work because they aren't landing grant money.

The teaching stuff hinted at above, I'll respond to below.

The university already had rankled professors with a program that paid bonuses based on anonymous student evaluations.

*snip*

That feud centered in part on the university’s insistence on hiring tenure-track professors rather than part-time instructors with real-world experience, which Sandefer preferred.

To the first, student evaluations are a terrible way to judge teaching performance. Why? Because all you have to do to get good evaluations is 1) make the class relatively easy; 2) not be boring; 3) be responsive to student e-mails, requests for meetings etc. While 2 and 3 are important, 1 is not and hurts education. I make my classes less intensive than I'd like as when I assign more reading, more writing etc. (which causes students to learn more from the course) they bitch about it on evaluations and say it was too much work. Where as I've never heard of a student complaint that a course was "too easy."

So in short, higher student evaluations often mean they're learning less than they could as profs have to dumb down classes to get decent evaluations from today's lazy ass students who are in school more to party and get a piece of paper they think will help them get a job, than they are to work hard and learn as much as they can.

That said, teaching is important, and there does need to be more focus on teaching performance in terms of pay, tenure and promotion etc. Student evaluations are just not the way to do it. Universities should have an evaluation unit where trained people go and observe class sessions etc. and combine those with student evaluations and use those in assessing teaching performance.


To the second, this is a double edged sword. Having part time instructors with real world experience can be a good thing, but much of the time they have no teaching experience and the classes end up being very dumbed down and anecdotal and don't really impart much of the empirical knowledge from the field in my experience. That's because the part timers often only have their practical experience to draw from ,and aren't experts on the research literature in the field. That said, there are some I've had/worked with who are outstanding in the classroom, and plenty of tenured professors who suck at teaching. Point being it's a person to person thing, not a case that part timers or tenure track profs are clearly better or worse in the class room.

The push to expand the use of them is purely financial, rather than any real perceived benefit to quality of education. A part time instructor tends to get around $3,500-4,000 per course where I've taught. So you can have them teach four courses a year (fall and spring) for around $15k, where as a tenure track research professor who has a 4 course a year teaching load will make $50-60k starting out as their 9-month salary (on a contract that typically defines their work load as 50% teaching-50% research).

That's where the push comes from--it's a $$$ game. And it's also a big part of the push for research profs to land grants. When we land grants one of the things we spend money on is "buying out" some of our courses to free up more time for research. Universities love this as they make a ton of money off it. A buy out is generally 12.5% of the prof's 9-month salary, which is significantly more (especially for older full professors with six figure salaries) than the $3,500 or so they'll pay a part time or grad student to teach the course in our place. They pocket the difference--some of it goes to the professor's department to help fund things like graduate assistantships, the rest goes to the university.

One last point I'll make here, is I do think it would be beneficial to have more specialized tenured positions. Right now the only option most places is a 2-2 teaching load position with a 50/50 research/teaching contract. Thus you get research super stars buying out all but one class a year (as you have to teach at least one a year most places) and not giving a rat's ass about the one course they teach. And, on the other hand, you get teaching stars not getting tenure because they don't publish enough or get enough grant dollars. That's just silly system. No reason you can't have current tenure track positions with the current criteria (with a better teaching evaluation system as noted above), a research-only tenure track position for the superstars who publish a ton and bring in a ton of grant money (and pay their own salaries more or less), and a teaching-only position for the teaching superstars where they teach 3 or 4 courses a semester instead of two and only get evaluated on that.

Having that kind of split would both improve research productivity by allowing the superstar scholars to spend all their time on publishing and going after grant money (and keeping them out of the classroom where they couldn't care less), and improve education by allowing those who just love to teach to focus all their energy on that.

That's the solution to the problems, not forcing all professors to chase money and be profitable to the university (which will worsen teaching as profs would have even more pressure on the research front than currently), or having even more classes taught by part timers and grad students who are cheaper. IIRC I read a while back that only 19% or so of classes at research universities are taught by tenure track faculty already, so if there's a decline in teaching performance I'd say that's the problem rather than it being that tenured faculty suck at teaching as many tend to argue.

More recently, Perry has proposed that the state’s top colleges come up with a four-year degree that costs no more than $10,000 — a goal that skeptics say cannot be achieved without sacrificing academic quality and prestige.

This one is just typical conservative nonsense of wanting things to improve, but not wanting to pay for it. It's impossible to give a decent degree, taught by tenured experts in their field, for $10,000 for the whole four years. Especially when states are slashing budgets for higher educations and thus forcing universities to increase tuition.

If people want a cheap degree consisting of classes taught to them by grad students and practitioners with little or no research experience or teaching experience, they can go to community college or the lower tier public universities etc.
 
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I've been thinking and reading things about higher education to better familiarize myself and it seems as if this is the next step in further commoditizing the industry. Between the rise of for-profits, non-dischargable debt, budget cuts, unenforced internship labor violations, higher tuitions, etc has created a new financial bubble that's been brewing for over a decade. I'm sure this isn't news to you, but for those that aren't familiar with it, higher education is following the trends of the housing bubble.

You have a product that is allegedly a safe investment that will only benefit you, the costs are high and you WILL go into debt, but it'll always pay off when you use it or make money off of it. Barriers to entry, like costs, go up, the markets then become flooded with the product in turn, repeat the cycle for 20 years and then you have schools that no one can afford, everyone has a degree, and you can't get a job that will give you a living wage while being able to pay off those loans.

As for Rick Perry, he allowed an innocent man be executed and replaced the head of the panel that was investigating him with a friend. It seems like he's competing with the governor of Wisconsin to see who can turn their state into a facist labor camp first.

I forget, did you mention that graduate loans are no longer going to be subsidized in the other thread?
 
Yep, that's it in a nutshell. Higher education is rapidly turning into another big business cash grab, when it should be a non-profit enterprise focused on generating new knowledge and educating the future generations.

It will simply further the US's decline in the world in terms of education, research and development etc.

I'm getting more and more fed up with it, and more and more leaning toward moving to my girlfriend's country and working in higher ed their rather than her dealing with her financial and visa issues to come back here.

Over there higher education and research is still viewed as a noble pursuit, unlike here where anti-intellectualism is becoming the dominant view and higher education is turning into a greed-drive business pursuit.
 
I haven't met a conservative yet that doesn't try to impose business models on everything.
 
Here's another dumb conservative idea on higher ed....

http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/deal-announces-plan-to-1074753.html

The gov. of Georgia wants to through financial incentives at universities to raise graduation rates. All that will due is worse then already rampant grade inflation and pushing unqualified students through to degrees.

And it's already a huge problem in Georgia due to the Hope scholarship where students who graduate high school with a certain gpa (was 3.0, think it went up to 3.2 now) get a scholarship to instate colleges for all 4 years as long as they maintain that gpa throughout college.

So you have a lot of kids not at the college level as high schools have inflated grades to get kids this scholarship, who end up going to college for very cheap after the scholarship, and many not graduating as they can't maintain the gpa as they weren't prepared for college and drop out as they can't afford it after losing the scholarship.

And the solution is to throw more money at the problem? Which is what many conservatives accuse liberals of.
 
I think you are all over doing it a bit. This is a problem but economists and researchers time and time again list higher education as one of Americas last strengths. Yes that means we should protect it from people trying to turn it in to a cash grab, but I hardly think things are anywhere near the threat level you make it sound yet.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I think you are all over doing it a bit. This is a problem but economists and researchers time and time again list higher education as one of Americas last strengths. Yes that means we should protect it from people trying to turn it in to a cash grab, but I hardly think things are anywhere near the threat level you make it sound yet.[/QUOTE]
WTF is this shit. If I'm knoell, then you're fucking bob.

There's so much evidence of this shit that it's impossible to ignore. The reason why its one of the US's last strengths is directly linked to its commoditization. Costs have out-paced inflation and with this jobless recovery, finding a job has become increasingly difficult as recent grads simply don't have the experience to compete with an already over-saturated job market. It's a HUGE cash grab that has far reaching effects beyond making money off college students. It also lowers the wage ceiling across all industries, which means even more profit in regards to lessened labor costs.

Or should I just chalk this up to another uninformed opinion...
 
As someone who works in the field, I'll respectfully disagree.

It's getting worse very rapidly with much more focus being on how to make more money from students (increase tuition and fees, cutting scholarships etc.) and faculty (more pressure on getting research grants to get tenure) etc. The more states keep slashing higher ed funding, the worse this gets every year.

If it keeps up at this pace, it will only be a decade or two at most before foreign universities overtake US higher ad as the world's dominate research centers.

One notable trend related to that, a lot more foreign students who get Ph Ds and other terminal degrees are returning to their home country rather than staying and working in US universities than in the past. US universities are becoming less attractive places to work, while foreign universities are rising by starting to pay equal or better salaries (where as most in the past paid a lot less than in the US). Thus there's less incentive to stay here than in the past.

Add in all these increasing pressures on getting tenure with added focus on whether or not your profitable to the university or not, and you'll have more American's jumping ship to foreign universities where they can focus on their work and not worry about that stuff. I've got another 4 years of slaving away hard core to get tenure here. I could go to my girlfriend's country and probably have tenure in a year given their system's focus on teaching and publishing over grant money, and their focus on trying to hire foreign scholars.
 
[quote name='dohdough']WTF is this shit. If I'm knoell, then you're fucking bob.

There's so much evidence of this shit that it's impossible to ignore. The reason why its one of the US's last strengths is directly linked to its commoditization. Costs have out-paced inflation and with this jobless recovery, finding a job has become increasingly difficult as recent grads simply don't have the experience to compete with an already over-saturated job market. It's a HUGE cash grab that has far reaching effects beyond making money off college students. It also lowers the wage ceiling across all industries, which means even more profit in regards to lessened labor costs.

Or should I just chalk this up to another uninformed opinion...[/QUOTE]

Again showing a hard left line and inabilty to talk like an adult. Again I support the same policies as you for the most part...but all of a sudden I am a hard line conservative like Bob just for disagreeing with you on how bad the issue is. I mean really...me you, camoor and most of the liberals of the board(because I am a liberal)agree on so many things...but every time I point out Republicans are wrong but have a point on 1 part of the problem you go bat shit.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']As someone who works in the field, I'll respectfully disagree.

It's getting worse very rapidly with much more focus being on how to make more money from students (increase tuition and fees, cutting scholarships etc.) and faculty (more pressure on getting research grants to get tenure) etc. The more states keep slashing higher ed funding, the worse this gets every year.

If it keeps up at this pace, it will only be a decade or two at most before foreign universities overtake US higher ad as the world's dominate research centers.

One notable trend related to that, a lot more foreign students who get Ph Ds and other terminal degrees are returning to their home country rather than staying and working in US universities than in the past. US universities are becoming less attractive places to work, while foreign universities are rising by starting to pay equal or better salaries (where as most in the past paid a lot less than in the US). Thus there's less incentive to stay here than in the past.

Add in all these increasing pressures on getting tenure with added focus on whether or not your profitable to the university or not, and you'll have more American's jumping ship to foreign universities where they can focus on their work and not worry about that stuff. I've got another 4 years of slaving away hard core to get tenure here. I could go to my girlfriend's country and probably have tenure in a year given their system's focus on teaching and publishing over grant money, and their focus on trying to hire foreign scholars.[/QUOTE]

I was only talking about the value of the American higher education. Pricing wise yes, things here are far too expensive and we are letting far too many foreign students leave the country with their valuable degree. However, that they are coming here in the first place still shows that American colleges are not completely corrupt and only focusing on profit.
 
Sure. I'm not saying we're past the tipping point yet, where American universities fall behind other countries as a whole.

I'm saying that we're rapidly on that path. Universities are being forced to change from their original purpose (centers of scholarship and intellectual development) and that's going to speed their decline and make them less attractive to top intellectuals--both faculty and students.

If this trend keeps up, they'll keep on turning into money making machines that just shit out degrees that are so ubiquitous they are of no help to people afterthey graduate.

Then you're going to have many fewer foreign students wanting to come study here, much less stay here after graduating, as the intellectual centers will have shifted to other countries.

Who's going to want to go to a foreign country to take classes with grad students and part timers who only have practical experience? Not many as they can get those kind of classes in any country. They're drawn here because in many fields US universities have the top experts in the world and they have to come here to study with them. Keep higher education on this trend, and that balance will shift going forward as the shift has already been started.

Universities attract top intellectual talent as it's the only place you can get near total freedom to pursue your research agenda. Put all this focus on bringing in money and being profitable to the university, then that equation changes. Why take the lower salaries and longer hours/higher stress vs. the private sector research jobs if it turns into a business and you lose a lot of your academic freedom from having to chase money all the time? Or why stay in the US when you can go to another country and get that freedom?

You're right that the shift hasn't totally happened. But you're silly to downplay the risk as problems like this can very rapidly hit and blow right past the tipping point. And once that happens it's often too late to fix it.
 
I don't know Dmaul. They still need the kids to land jobs or their reputation will suffer. I think the real blow will come from missing out on billion dollar ideas like coaxial cable and the internet that are born in part out of pure research.

Anyway I do think it sucks, but this upcoming recession/depression isn't going to be pretty for anyone but the tops of Wall Street.
 
dmaul, have you heard of any private institutions that have opened up for-profit divisions in their schools or how widespread it is? I'd argue that we're already past the tipping point and wouldn't be surprised to see more of these schools open up within the next few years. From what I could see, it started with extention schools, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it catered to non-traditional students looking to pad their resume's for career advancement, which is again, not a terrible thing, but it strays a little too far away from the traditional idea of knowledge creation centers, at least for my tastes. In conjunction with the meme that college is considered the new "trade school" or hs diploma, it's hard not to take a step back to examine this problem from a systematic view and conclude that we're starting on the path to illegitimacy, but we're half way through the race already.
 
[quote name='camoor']I don't know Dmaul. They still need the kids to land jobs or their reputation will suffer. I think the real blow will come from missing out on billion dollar ideas like coaxial cable and the internet that are born in part out of pure research.

Anyway I do think it sucks, but this upcoming recession/depression isn't going to be pretty for anyone but the tops of Wall Street.[/QUOTE]
Grads are already having problems finding jobs, hense the promulgatian of internships, especially the unpaid ones.
 
[quote name='camoor']I don't know Dmaul. They still need the kids to land jobs or their reputation will suffer. I think the real blow will come from missing out on billion dollar ideas like coaxial cable and the internet that are born in part out of pure research. [/quote]

Sure, and that was part of my point. With all this focus on just making money and getting as many students in and out as possible, degrees will continue to lose value and be of less help in getting jobs.

And yes, the main loss to society will be losing out on various advances in knowledge as more and more research developments start coming from foreign universities.

[quote name='dohdough']dmaul, have you heard of any private institutions that have opened up for-profit divisions in their schools or how widespread it is? I'd argue that we're already past the tipping point and wouldn't be surprised to see more of these schools open up within the next few years. From what I could see, it started with extention schools, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it catered to non-traditional students looking to pad their resume's for career advancement, which is again, not a terrible thing, but it strays a little too far away from the traditional idea of knowledge creation centers, at least for my tastes. In conjunction with the meme that college is considered the new "trade school" or hs diploma, it's hard not to take a step back to examine this problem from a systematic view and conclude that we're starting on the path to illegitimacy, but we're half way through the race already.[/QUOTE]

I don't know much about private schools having only gone to and worked at public universities. I know there's an explosion of for profit private colleges popping up lately from University of Phoenix and the other online schools to small local ones.

And when I talk about the tipping point, I mean with regard to public research universities. I don't think those are past the tipping point yet on this front--many are just rapidly approaching it.

Hell, for profit private universities could probably help research universities get back to their "knowledge creation center" (as you put it) purpose by being another outlet beside community colleges for the students who don't give a rats ass about learning and just want a degree of some kind.

A lot of energy is wasted (that could go on research or more mentoring of the brightest students) dealing with kids who shouldn't be in a research university in the first place as the either lack the ability (didn't graduate high school with a college ready skill set) or just don't give a crap about learning--or both.

The problem is research universities are jumping on the money bandwagon (especially in the face of continue big budget cuts from the state) rather than using it as a time to refocus on the knowledge creation purpose and return to being places for the best and brightest young minds rather than some place everyone thinks they have to go to get a job. The latter is what trade schools and community colleges (and perhaps private for profits) are for.

[quote name='dohdough']Grads are already having problems finding jobs, hense the promulgatian of internships, especially the unpaid ones.[/QUOTE]

Internships are a good thing if done properly. We have a required internship as part of our undergrad program. But it's done in an educational way as it has a course that goes along with it and they have to do a research/policy paper related to their experience etc. So they learn a lot from it, as well as making connections in the field they want to work in. A lot end up getting jobs where they interned, or at a similar agency, after graduating on the basis of the experience.

But too many are just free labor for credits, with no educational component involved.
 
I guess being in a city surrounded by some top-tier private universities gives me a different perspective...heh. I'd imagine that it isn't really an issue with public uni's and it hasn't really entrenched itself in research schools yet.
 
At the school where I work there have been plenty of full time faculty who have either quit or been fired and were replaced with adjuncts with no intention of hiring anyone full time.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Grads are already having problems finding jobs, hense the promulgatian of internships, especially the unpaid ones.[/QUOTE]

The way it is going America will have a glut of lawyers and wanna-be wallstreet players and no good ideas.

Oh wait that's how it is now.
 
Yeah, it's always been more of an issue in private universities since they have to make all their money through tuition and donations and overhead on research grants where as state universities get tons of funding from the state.

However, as state budgets keep sucking, and higher education funds get slashed, public research schools are starting to lean more in that direction as they too have to find ways to generate revenue to make up the difference.

And proposals like Perry's seek to rapidly accelerate this transformation. And if his idea's happened to become the norm, the quality of research and education in research universities would decline rapidly.

Public universities, for the most part, already can't pay the big salaries of the top private universities or private research entities so if they start eroding the perks of working in a public research university (less focus on teaching than at private universities for the most part, more freedom than private sector and less focus on generating value to the company) universities will start to have even more problems keeping top talent.

It's already tough for public universities as the absolute top talent ends up at the top private universities that have a big research focus (like the Ivy league schools and places like Emory etc.) and the few top public universities in the country (say the top 10-20 departments in whatever field). So most universities are already fighting with private sector and the next tier of private universities for basically the second tier of talent in most cases. Start upping pressure to chase grant money, tweak your classes in ways you don't like to boost student evaluations etc., and all of a sudden that lower salary at a public research university doesn't seem worth it any more as the perks are eroding.

In short such trends risk public universities becoming even more heavily dominated by classes taught by grad students and adjuncts, and having tenured faculty just be the scraps left over from people who couldn't land jobs at private research universities, foreign universities or top research firms.

If the US wants to keep having the top university system in the world, we have to find ways to protect academic/research freedoms and keep salaries as competitive with the private sector and foreign universities as possible.
 
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[quote name='Clak']At the school where I work there have been plenty of full time faculty who have either quit or been fired and were replaced with adjuncts with no intention of hiring anyone full time.[/QUOTE]

Are you at a public research university or a teaching university/liberal arts college etc.?

From what I've seen that's thankfully not happening much in research universities. The current trend is giving incentives for older faculty who are eligible to retire to retire as a lot of them are making six figure salaries but haven't been very productive for years.

Their salary line is then mostly being used to hire Assistant/Associate professors who make less and produce more. Which is reasonable as they leave alone the old professors who are still productive.


[quote name='camoor']The way it is going America will have a glut of lawyers and wanna-be wallstreet players and no good ideas.

Oh wait that's how it is now.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

There's much more incentive to put resources into things like the law school and business school as those are huge cash cows. People pay over a $100k for a law degree often times, where as in the social sciences (and a lot of the hard sciences) most grad students are getting free tuition and a stipend to get their master's and Ph D and are thus costing the school money.

That's one thing I worry about changing if this focus on profit continues. I really worry that we'll see funding for graduate students cut, and that's necessary to keep many fields going as in a lot of fields starting salaries are too low to justify taking out huge loans.
 
I'm totally fed up with the federal government, and that's why I want to run the executive branch. It's like putting the oil companies in charge of the EPA.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Are you at a public research university or a teaching university/liberal arts college etc.?

From what I've seen that's thankfully not happening much in research universities. The current trend is giving incentives for older faculty who are eligible to retire to retire as a lot of them are making six figure salaries but haven't been very productive for years.

Their salary line is then mostly being used to hire Assistant/Associate professors who make less and produce more. Which is reasonable as they leave alone the old professors who are still productive.




Exactly.

There's much more incentive to put resources into things like the law school and business school as those are huge cash cows. People pay over a $100k for a law degree often times, where as in the social sciences (and a lot of the hard sciences) most grad students are getting free tuition and a stipend to get their master's and Ph D and are thus costing the school money.

That's one thing I worry about changing if this focus on profit continues. I really worry that we'll see funding for graduate students cut, and that's necessary to keep many fields going as in a lot of fields starting salaries are too low to justify taking out huge loans.[/QUOTE]Yeah not a research university.
 
[quote name='IRHari']I'm totally fed up with the federal government, and that's why I want to run the executive branch. It's like putting the oil companies in charge of the EPA.[/QUOTE]

Very true, though a lot of the higher ed problems are related to state governments and university administrators.

But the budget cuts from the debt ceiling crap will no doubt cause further problems. States will end up getting less federal funding overall and higher education budgets will continue to get sliced.

And students will continue getting lesser education for more money as tuition and fee increases are coupled with larger class sizes and more classes taught by grad students and part timers.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Very true, though a lot of the higher ed problems are related to state governments and university administrators.

But the budget cuts from the debt ceiling crap will no doubt cause further problems. States will end up getting less federal funding overall and higher education budgets will continue to get sliced.

And students will continue getting lesser education for more money as tuition and fee increases are coupled with larger class sizes and more classes taught by grad students and part timers.[/QUOTE]

Yah, I have mixed feelings on it. In some respects I wholeheartedly agree that the idea of analyzing a university as a business is insane, but for private universities, they've had to do that for years, and they've flourished. They are able to charge ungodly amounts in tuition, but supposedly the value of a degree from those places warrants it. So why can't a research university/public university not aim for the same level of prestige? They are partially subsidized by the state government, so it seems like they should have an advantage since they can operate at a loss forever.

We've all had profs that were clearly in the wrong profession, or for whatever reason were not fit to teach (language skills, organizational skills, field experience, but no teaching experience) and it's frustrating as hell, because even a dumbass like me who got his degree from a 4 year State University, still paid a lot of money to go there. The students should play a roll in a professor's salary and tenure. The part where I think it's very fair to compare to business is that if you're in a different profession and you just don't do a good job for an extended period of time, it's much easier to fire you. If you're a government employee (State University prof) with tenure, your'e damn near untouchable, AND you're making a relatively high salary with excellent bennies.

The flip side-and actually, dmaul, how does this work; I would assume that a prof gets paid the same amount based on the state employee payscale if they are generating millions in grants, and teaching several successful courses, vs the 75 year old that mails it in, but has been in the system for 50 years. If you're that young, hungry prof busting his ass, wouldn't you like to see compensation be tied to performance (assuming that's not how it is now)
 
[quote name='berzirk'] They are partially subsidized by the state government, so it seems like they should have an advantage since they can operate at a loss forever. [/quote]

Being state universities, they get a ton of flack every time they raise tuition, where as private universities have much more latitude on that.

Thus in public universities new revenues come from things I've mentioned like upping enrollment and class sizes, having more classes taught by grad students/part timers, and putting more pressure on faculty to get research grants--which takes even more emphasis of teaching, and limits research options as grants are tied to specific funding solicitations on usually aimed at specific areas.

All things that hurt the quality of education and research.

We've all had profs that were clearly in the wrong profession, or for whatever reason were not fit to teach (language skills, organizational skills, field experience, but no teaching experience) and it's frustrating as hell, because even a dumbass like me who got his degree from a 4 year State University, still paid a lot of money to go there.

That's why I said that we need more types of tenured positions.

Let the research super stars only do research and be judged on that. Let the teaching super stars who aren't very interested in research teach more classes and be judged on that. And let people who enjoy both teaching and research and do good at both stay on the current types of appointments and be judged on both.

The students should play a roll in a professor's salary and tenure.

I wasn't saying student evaluations shouldn't count, just that they shouldn't be the only measure of teaching quality as they're highly biased. You can get good evaluations every time by not being boring and having an easy class. While profs that are demanding get lower evaluations as students are lazy and don't want to work hard. Even though the students who actually care and work hard will learn a ton more from the more demanding class.

The part where I think it's very fair to compare to business is that if you're in a different profession and you just don't do a good job for an extended period of time, it's much easier to fire you. If you're a government employee (State University prof) with tenure, your'e damn near untouchable, AND you're making a relatively high salary with excellent bennies.

There are very few truly lazy profs who deserve firing though. The ones you hated as teachers were mostly still probably doing good research and making the university money from research grants etc. But I agree there needs to be more of a mechanism to weed out the minority who get tenure and slack off.

But the tenure system is important as it protects our academic freedom (can't be fired for doing research the university administrators or politicians don't like etc.) and the job security is a perk that makes it more worthwhile despite the lower salaries of academia relative to the private sector. As I've said before I turned down a private sector job that would have paid me $15k more with similar benefits last summer largely for these type of perks in freedom and job security. Start getting rid of perks, and more talented people will start opting for private sector jobs, foreign universities etc.

The flip side-and actually, dmaul, how does this work; I would assume that a prof gets paid the same amount based on the state employee payscale if they are generating millions in grants, and teaching several successful courses, vs the 75 year old that mails it in, but has been in the system for 50 years. If you're that young, hungry prof busting his ass, wouldn't you like to see compensation be tied to performance (assuming that's not how it is now)

University professors aren't paid on any state employee pay scale. It's merit based.

Sure there's a general starting salary range for new profs and standard raise ranges for promotion to associate and full professor etc. But those don't matter that much as they still vary by your qualifications etc. For instance a person who gets multiple job offers out of grad school will usually get a higher starting salary that one who only gets one as they can bargain back and forth and take which ever job offers the most etc.

You're salary depends on:

1. How productive you are in publishing and getting grant money.

2. How aggressive you are in networking and selling yourself and getting job offers from other places (and your willingness to move if you current place won't match a better salary offer).

So the only times that there's an old prof mailing it in making big bucks and doing little generally is just because they busted their ass for years to get to that point and have dialed it back as they close in on retirement. I don't have much problems with that. We slave away so much, I think that's fine as long as they're still doing an ok job in teaching and helping out with all the bullshit administrative work we have to deal with etc. If they're not at least doing that, they need to retire. But I'm ok if the 65+ profs aren't so research active anymore. They've earned it IMO.

And I find those types of "high paid, do nothings" to be pretty rare in my field. The old profs who are mailing it in tend to make right around $100K which is the lower end for full professors, and even some superstar associate profs make around that in some top programs. The one's making $200-300K are still busting ass and publishing a ton and landing lots of grants as only the true long-term workaholics ever get to that top 1% in the field type salaries.
 
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Thanks-good to know. I remember working for a prof who to this day is one of the 3-4 smartest people I've ever met. Knowing that he's being paid based on merit and not on some lame state employee scale makes me feel a lot better!

I personally come from a family of teachers, and kick myself for not choosing education. Really wish I went that path instead. Oh well.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Thanks-good to know. I remember working for a prof who to this day is one of the 3-4 smartest people I've ever met. Knowing that he's being paid based on merit and not on some lame state employee scale makes me feel a lot better!
[/QUOTE]

Well, he still could be very underpaid. The top paid people get the big salaries are mostly people who land a lot of big grants. Their getting the big bucks as they're more than paying their own salaries through overhead on their grants. Many of these people are brilliant, but not all. There's a lot of people getting big grants and doing mediocre research off them.

So there a lot of very bright people who do great work who get paid a lot less than the grant superstars as they're doing theoretical work or other types of research that doesn't require much (or sometimes even any) grant research, though it may be research that has more of an impact on the field than some of the big grant research.

And a lot of landing grants is having connections and building a name and reputation for yourself among the funding agencies etc.

So it's by no means a pure meritocracy. But of course nothing is as that's a pipe dream! :D
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']And it's already a huge problem in Georgia due to the Hope scholarship where students who graduate high school with a certain gpa (was 3.0, think it went up to 3.2 now) get a scholarship to instate colleges for all 4 years as long as they maintain that gpa throughout college.[/QUOTE]

You were talking about those kids at dinner a few weeks back, yeah? the kids that fuck off and then want to negotiate their grades at the end of the term on account of needing to retain that scholarship. yikes.

I love the idea of pinning teacher pay to professor evaluations. One of the most preposterous ideas fucking imaginable, and totally easy to game the system. fucking fools.

(don't get me wrong, if you want your children to actually learn something and be intellectually challenged and stimulated, this is one of the worst ideas imaginable. but facetiously, if all I need to do to earn a boatload of money is shuffle a bunch of unmotivated, no work ethic having mouthbreathing smartphone jockeys to a degree by giving them an unearned "A," you bet your ass I'll do it.)
 
Student evals should definitely not be tied to pay, because it just gives them incentive to be lazy. I never really understand students going to the professor at the end of the year complaining about grades, more then likely you got the grade you deserved. Furthermore, the grade is only secondary to actually learning something in the class. Too many people are going to college when they should just go to a tech school or go straight to work.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Too many people are going to college when they should just go to a tech school or go straight to work.[/QUOTE]

This is quite true. Many, many students today are very uninterested in frivolous (i.e., non-major) classes. A broad intellectual application is a huge part of higher ed - after all, we are not a vocation school.

But sometimes students even take that perspective to major courses. E.g., "I just want to be a cop, what do I need to know research methods for?" shows a severe misunderstanding of the nature of police work. It's the perspective of people who think they'll get to be John McClane, not someone who has to write more paperwork than they ever imagined, someone who might get promoted to a position where they have influence over policing patterns in their muniicipality (and should do so based on data, not 'gut feeling' or politics).

Students want to learn only the things they *think they need to know* to leave college and jump into a six figure salary, and little else. Problem is, what they think they need to know is based on stereotypes of the jobs they want to do (i.e., fictionalized television portrayals of what they want to do).

The last problem is one thing students do know the meaning of is social capital. They know the pedigree of the diploma matters, which is why they're attending here instead of . They're savvy enough to understand why University of Phoenix is a joke degree, but that doesn't influence or change the actual subject matter they want to learn.
 
[quote name='mykevermin'](don't get me wrong, if you want your children to actually learn something and be intellectually challenged and stimulated, this is one of the worst ideas imaginable. but facetiously, if all I need to do to earn a boatload of money is shuffle a bunch of unmotivated, no work ethic having mouthbreathing smartphone jockeys to a degree by giving them an unearned "A," you bet your ass I'll do it.)[/QUOTE]

And here we complain about the lack of ethics in America...
 
You're absolutely right - a system set up that places any amount of trust, responsibility, or any expectation of ethics on our educators is stupid.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']You're absolutely right - a system set up that places any amount of trust, responsibility, or any expectation of ethics on our educators is stupid.[/QUOTE]

I can see why professors are tenured, but I don't really think teachers need to be tenured for the most part. You actually have any thoughts on this or are you just running off at the mouth here?
 
As I said earlier, tenure is an absolute necessity to protect academic freedom. The main need for it is so professors can't be fired if politicians and/or university administration for doing research they don't like or teaching things in their course that are on topic but that they disagree with. Evolution is usually used as the classic example on that front.

And the job security, as stressful as it is to get (as going up for tenure is stressful as fuck), is one of the biggest perks that makes the job appealing even though it pays significantly less than a lot of private research firms. Outside of research arms of government agencies, there's not much job security in research firms as their existence (and your job) is tied to consistently bringing in enough research grants to keep everyone employed.

So the main appeal of a research university job is you can keep doing your research even if you aren't getting grants all the time. Along with having a lot more freedom in researching what you want, where as at a research firm you're totally beholden to what you can get grants for and what types of research the higher ups want done.

If you take away the job security angle, the academic job becomes a whole lot less attractive as now it's on more equal footing on that front with the research firm jobs that pay a good bit more. So it would put universities at a disadvantage in attracting and keeping top talent.

All that said, as I mentioned earlier, I have no problems with tweaking the tenure system. Again, the biggest need is moving from only having teaching & research combined positions, and adding research only and teaching only tenure track positions. That will improve both the quality of teaching and the quality of research generated by the university.

But I'm also fine with tweaks to the tenure system where post tenure evaluations have more impact in putting pressure on them to start working harder to keep their job or earn raises etc. The job security doesn't have to be as absolute as it is now to keep the advantage over the private sector or to protect academic freedom.

But in general, I don't think the tenure system is that big of a problem, beyond a few to many sticking around at ages 65 and up and phoning it in. But as long as they only do that for a few years I don't have much of a gripe with it as they've earned it by slaving away for 30+ years--though more effort should probably be made to move them out of the classroom if they're phoning it in and just have them doing research and service work in the department/college/university.

Otherwise, most profs in research universities bust their asses because they love their jobs. It's not a job you take for the money as they pay is pretty crappy for the amount of hours we log. We could all mostly make more and work less in the private sector. So the vast majority of profs I had over the years or have worked with bust ass on research even after tenure (and even the later promotion to full professor) and work hard in the classroom to make sure as many students do well as possible--even those who aren't passionate about teaching like me.

Sure, they're not all going to be great teachers who can inspire students etc. We're not trained as teachers, because we're not teachers. We're research scholars working in knowledge creation centers (as dohdough described universities earlier). But we mostly all make an effort to make sure students who come to class and do the work will learn a lot from our courses, even if we're a bit dull/boring at times!

So I think a lot of the ire toward the tenure system is people who view research universities as schools with teaching as their primary mission. They're knowledge generation centers and they should only be attracting well qualified students who already know how to learn and are interested in engaging in learning as much as they can through reading, writing and access to experts in fields on the classroom. It's not a place for people who still need to be handheld and taught directly and kept engaged by the teacher etc. Those types should be in a trade school or community college etc., but as myke notes, they end up at a university due to the pedigree of the degree. I don't view it as professor's responsibility to cater their classes to such students. Not everyone is cut out for college, and you lower the value of the degree if you cater to the lowest common denominator.

As for tenure for teachers in public schools, teaching universities where profs don't do research etc. it's less necessary for academic freedom purposes since curriculum is more set anyway. But it's still a good thing to have to recruit top talent to the profession. Teaching is always a high stress, long hour job that people who've never done it don't understand. It's not something you do for the money, so perks like tenure are a great tool to use to recruit talent. But again that doesn't mean that it has to be absolute and their can't be more pressure on tenured teachers to keep their performance up.
 
I use to respect Perry for wanting to separate Texas from the Union but he has problems with Gay people, is against abortion, etc.
You fucking idiot. Where the fuck are the hardcore Fiscal Conservatives in the Republican party who aren't afraid to not be Social Conservatives? I want a Conservative who's willing to rip apart entitlement programs on both sides, rich and poor. Rich first, poor second. Who leaves Gay's alone in wanting their rights, who respects a woman's right to her body and doesn't believe she forfeits her rights as a human being to her child when she gets pregnant. Who supports gun rights. Who is against Illegal Immigration and will enforce it by heavily fining those businesses who participate in this practice.
I'll support them because at least they make sense and aren't extremist Hypocrites like what the Co-Opted Tea Party has become. Don't get me started on the Left wing side on the Democrats. It means I have to call Illegals "Undocumented Workers", be vehemently against Gun rights.
 
[quote name='Sarang01']I use to respect Perry for wanting to separate Texas from the Union but he has problems with Gay people, is against abortion, etc.
You fucking idiot. Where the fuck are the hardcore Fiscal Conservatives in the Republican party who aren't afraid to not be Social Conservatives? I want a Conservative who's willing to rip apart entitlement programs on both sides, rich and poor. Rich first, poor second. Who leaves Gay's alone in wanting their rights, who respects a woman's right to her body and doesn't believe she forfeits her rights as a human being to her child when she gets pregnant. Who supports gun rights. Who is against Illegal Immigration and will enforce it by heavily fining those businesses who participate in this practice.
I'll support them because at least they make sense and aren't extremist Hypocrites like what the Co-Opted Tea Party has become. Don't get me started on the Left wing side on the Democrats. It means I have to call Illegals "Undocumented Workers", be vehemently against Gun rights.[/QUOTE]

Generalizations, mostly. Also, Republicans are terrible at PR.

And I could discuss the finer details of each of the points you mentioned, but I won't. Some are simple, some aren't.
 
Lynn Samuels is a Liberal yet she has no rights to that title since she's not a Neo-Liberal which includes being an apologist for Illegal Immigration as one of the biggest things. She also doesn't kiss Obama's ass which means she's not a Liberal as well.
King I just get sick and fucking tired of it, where are the people like me and the state where I can live, where I can have representatives? There's no Oregonshire(combination of New Hampshire and Oregon) where I'd likely feel the most comfortable.
 
[quote name='sarang01']i use to respect perry for wanting to separate texas from the union but he has problems with gay people, is against abortion, etc.
You fucking idiot. Where the fuck are the hardcore fiscal conservatives in the republican party who aren't afraid to not be social conservatives? I want a conservative who's willing to rip apart entitlement programs on both sides, rich and poor. Rich first, poor second. Who leaves gay's alone in wanting their rights, who respects a woman's right to her body and doesn't believe she forfeits her rights as a human being to her child when she gets pregnant. Who supports gun rights. Who is against illegal immigration and will enforce it by heavily fining those businesses who participate in this practice.
I'll support them because at least they make sense and aren't extremist hypocrites like what the co-opted tea party has become. Don't get me started on the left wing side on the democrats. It means i have to call illegals "undocumented workers", be vehemently against gun rights.[/quote]

[quote name='kingbroly']generalizations, mostly. Also, republicans are terrible at pr.

And i could discuss the finer details of each of the points you mentioned, but i won't. Some are simple, some aren't.[/quote]

[quote name='sarang01']lynn samuels is a liberal yet she has no rights to that title since she's not a neo-liberal which includes being an apologist for illegal immigration as one of the biggest things. She also doesn't kiss obama's ass which means she's not a liberal as well.
King i just get sick and fucking tired of it, where are the people like me and the state where i can live, where i can have representatives? There's no oregonshire(combination of new hampshire and oregon) where i'd likely feel the most comfortable.[/quote]
lolololol
 
[quote name='Sarang01']I use to respect Perry for wanting to separate Texas from the Union but he has problems with Gay people, is against abortion, etc.
You
shaqfu.gif
ing idiot. Where the
shaqfu.gif
are the hardcore Fiscal Conservatives in the Republican party who aren't afraid to not be Social Conservatives? I want a Conservative who's willing to rip apart entitlement programs on both sides, rich and poor. Rich first, poor second. Who leaves Gay's alone in wanting their rights, who respects a woman's right to her body and doesn't believe she forfeits her rights as a human being to her child when she gets pregnant. Who supports gun rights. Who is against Illegal Immigration and will enforce it by heavily fining those businesses who participate in this practice.
I'll support them because at least they make sense and aren't extremist Hypocrites like what the Co-Opted Tea Party has become. Don't get me started on the Left wing side on the Democrats. It means I have to call Illegals "Undocumented Workers", be vehemently against Gun rights.[/QUOTE]

Well the conservative 'kingmaker' Jim DeMint (still find it funny that he's called that considering he endorsed Mitt Romney for 2008) says that you can't be a fiscal conservative without being a social conservative. So, tough shit ;)
 
Ah, so here's why Perry is so against higher education.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/05/rick-perry-college-transcript_n_919357.html?1312559872

As governor of Texas, Rick Perry has pursued a controversial agenda that would gut Texas' vaunted public university system in favor of something that more closely resembles a business.

As the Washington Post reported on Thursday, professors have been ranked according to how profitable they were to the university. Previous reports suggested Perry wanted to treat students as "customers" and tie teacher bonuses to anonymous student evaluations.

One reason that might explain his hostility toward the system: He didn't do very well in it. A source in Texas passed The Huffington Post Perry's transcripts from his years at Texas A&M University. The future politician did not distinguish himself much in the classroom. While he later became a student leader, he had to get out of academic probation to do so. He rarely earned anything above a C in his courses -- earning a C in U.S. History, a D in Shakespeare, and a D in the principles of economics. Perry got a C in gym.

Perry also did poorly on classes within his animal science major. In fall semester 1970, he received a D in veterinary anatomy, a F in a second course on organic chemistry and a C in animal breeding. He did get an A in world military systems and “Improv. of Learning” -- his only two As while at A&M.

"A&M wasn't exactly Harvard on the Brazos River," recalled a Perry classmate in an interview with The Huffington Post. "This was not the brightest guy around. We always kind of laughed. He was always kind of a joke."

A spokesperson for the governor recently told the Texas Tribune that the university "helped shape who he is today." The governor’s office did not return a request for comment from The Huffington Post.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/61684192/Rick-Perry-s-Texas-A-M-Transcript
 
I had a gym class in college back in fall of 1997. You had to take some kind of phys ed class as an elective at least one semester at the small school I started at before transferring to the major state university. The university still had gym classes, but none were required. I took a semester of Tai Kwon Do as an elective though! :D

I'd image gym classes were much more common back when Perry was in school--though I don't know how you get a C in one beyond not showing up.

What is more troubling is that he's a governer and potential presidential candidate and he got a D in Principles of Economics.
 
It's hard to tell kids to work hard and you can be anything you want, when morons like that basically conned their ways into their positions.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I had a gym class in college back in fall of 1997. You had to take some kind of phys ed class as an elective at least one semester at the small school I started at before transferring to the major state university. The university still had gym classes, but none were required. I took a semester of Tai Kwon Do as an elective though! :D

I'd image gym classes were much more common back when Perry was in school--though I don't know how you get a C in one beyond not showing up.

What is more troubling is that he's a governer and potential presidential candidate and he got a D in Principles of Economics.[/QUOTE]
Troubling, but not particularly surprising.
 
If anyone read that huffpo article about Perry's grades, and feels superior because they earned better grades than he did, please don't feel that way. Look at who you're comparing yourself to. You're the best of the worst.

You're the king of the shitpile.
 
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