How Conservatives Like Rick Perry Will Kill Higher Education and Knowledge Generation

Yeah, definitely not something anyone should be proud of.

The only takeaways are:

1. It makes sense why he wants to essentially destroy the Texas university system and doesn't understand the value/purpose of higher education.

2. It's sad how unqualified and down right stupid many of our elected officials are.

Unrelated, how about that "day of prayer" bullshit he organized and led yesterday? That's a nice slap in the face to separation of church and state. :bomb:
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Unrelated, how about that "day of prayer" bullshit he organized and led yesterday? That's a nice slap in the face to separation of church and state. :bomb:[/QUOTE]
Did you miss the debate where all of the candidates straight up said that they wanted to turn the US into a theocracy? LOLZ.
 
I definitely had a gym / health class my first semester at a state school here in CT, it was mandatory.

Ultimately for me, I would say college was a waste. I honestly can't say I learned a whole lot that I didn't know otherwise, but by the time I realized what a waste it was, I was three years in and finished for the sake of finishing. My BA is business management just hangs on my wal. I probably would have been just as successful, if not more so, had I devoted more time towards work or learning a trade.

As for tenure vs adjunct, my experience was always the same. The professors with tenure wouldn't give a shit, most of them had been there for 100 years, and had the same crappy handouts and lesson plans they had been using for years. They would come to class, load their powerpoints, read verbatim from them, then dismiss class. They didn't care and would simply go through the motions. Your grade would be based entirely on tests written by someone else in the department which contained material not covered in class. Short of cheating, the only way to pass would be to be knowledgable about the subject before you even took the class.

Adjuncts on the other hand were the opposite. They weren't burned out academics who felt it was beneath them to teach a class that wasn't graduate or senior level. They were just regular people, either bored retirees, or people with real careers looking to supplement their income. They were there because they wanted to be, they enjoyed the subject they were teaching and were knowledgable and qualified to get the job. They actually took the time to teach the material, and give you a chance to understand and digest it. They would also teach it in such a way to make it comprehensible, and not riddled with jargon. They actually wanted you to learn and do well and would go out of their way to make sure that happened.

Most people I knew liked the tenured professors since half the time they would cancel class, and when they did have class, it would be reduced to a 20 minute powerpoint lecture, after which the teacher would get bored and let everyone leave early without assigning homework. Sure, the class is easy, but you have to study your ass off without assistance just to get a C. The adjunct might make you stay for the whole class period, and might assign homework, but at least you went into that test knowing the material and would have a much easier time getting that A.
 
Guess that must vary wildly from school to school I suppose.

I had a few older tenured faculty who sucked for sure, but most where middle aged or younger and were great in the class room. Adjuncts were more of a mixed bag. Some were just awful. Some were great. Some were entertaining but just either taught straight from the book or, on the other hand, a bunch of anecdotal bs from their practical experience in their prior/current job (which is fine for a trade school, but not a research univ. class) etc. Same with where I went to grad school and where I work now.

One difference though, is most of the places I've been at (or have good knowledge of) the older, full professors don't really teach many (if any) undergraduate classes anyway. They're doing research and buying out teaching and maybe teaching 1 or 2 graduate courses, or advanced undergrad courses, honors sections etc., a year. That's probably a better solution (along with having separate teaching and research tenure positions as I outlined above) as you keep people not interested in teaching undergraduate classes from having to do so.

I'll admit I hate teaching undergraduate classes--though I still put a lot of effort into it and don't cancel classes etc. as it's part of my job and I feel obligated to do a good job at it. They're just so low level/dumbed down compared to the level of our research work that it's just boring. When you're an expert in a field is boring as shit to have to talk about the basics. So graduate classes are much more rewarding since they're higher level and the students already know the basics and you can talk about the major issues, discuss research in detail etc. I've tried upping the level of some of my undergrad courses a couple times, but the kids just get lost and grades fall and you end up getting hammered in student evaluations for "expecting too much."
 
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The worst adjunct instructor I ever had said his own teaching was lacking, so he'd be easy on us, then got it in his head that no one deserved 100 on anything because that's a perfect grade and no one is perfect. Then, since this was a business comm class, had us doing resumes, which I already had. I submitted that and was told it was horrible because it differed from the book. I had gone a year before and had the director of career placement help me write that resume. It was probably the worst, biggest waste of time class I'd ever had. He was also out constantly for some sort of health problems, I don't know why they even hired him.
 
Well, sometimes adjuncts get hired at the last minute as another adjunct quits, or a tenured professor decided to leave on short notice etc., and they're left scrambling to find someone to cover those classes on short notice.

Now if he's someone they've hired multiple semesters in a row, then it's a different story. We have some that I don't understand why we keep rehiring--but I get no say in that (up to the dept. chair) so I don't waste my time worrying about it. To be fair, they're not incompetent in the way you note, but just teach the classes at a very low level and give a ton of As. So they get ok evaluations but I don't think students are really learning much of anything. At least not anything relevant to our departments overall mission/curriculum anyway.
 
Well I know he was back the next semester at least. He was one of those retired types who just teach either for extra money or to have something to do, they have no real interest in it.
 
[quote name='spmahn']I would say college was a waste. I honestly can't say I learned a whole lot that I didn't know otherwise[/quote]

What you're telling us, then, is that you were fully prepared for the business management world at the age of 18. Just do we're clear, you fully agree with this?

Sure, the class is easy, but you have to study your ass off without assistance just to get a C.
Click to expand...

Clarify this sentence, as it's positively nonsense otherwise. Easy, but you must study your ass off to get a C? You do realize how absurd that sounds, right?
 
In regards to the finding a job after graduating issue. Not sure how it is where you guys live, here in Florida though most if not all my graduate buddies have actually moved forward with internships which then turned into jobs. It's easy to say that finding a job is hard when most of the information is coming from friends who have recently graduated. But are we looking to see whether or not they put forth the effort to get these said jobs if they're graduating with mediocre degrees that a scholarship/mommy-daddy paid for? I'm about a semester off from graduating and I've gotten a number of job offers. I may not have as much experience as a seasoned veteran who's been in the industry for a number of years, but I do have a resume to reflect all the hard work I put through. I'm not saying it's easy to find a job in this market, but being honest I know quite a bit of people who complain through life when things don't go their way.
(ex: They didn't get hired, they didn't get an A, they didn't pass an exam, they didn't get a BMW but got a Mercedes instead)

I guess my point in saying all this, are those individuals qualified for those jobs to begin with. There are a lot of individuals who graduate who aren't qualified to hold that degree. (controversial I know)

To add to this, professors who want to do research and don't really want to teach, will give out easy grades so they can worry less about students learning and more about doing their own research. (Sounds hard to believe, but in my 5 years in college, I've seen this happen a number of times to myself and colleagues.)

As I said before, I'm not doubting the job market is tough right now, but using your brain once in a while will make it VERY easy to land a job. Simple things that people overlook that could've helped them land that job.
Such as: Taking class more seriously (again, being honest it's hard to do a lot of the time), having a respectable resume (meaning taking pride in that resume), going to interviews prepared. (not only dressed for the job/interview, but respectful to the interviewer, as well as having legitimate responses and asking about the company philosophy, mission statement, etc.)

This might be a rant, but I hope what I've tried to communicate is to point with this topic.
 
Now wait a second, wasn't the prayer day for rain? If so, isn't that essentially the same thing as those filthy pagan indians with their rain dance?

I just love these people, I honestly do. Without them the world would be dull.
 
[quote name='camoor']It sadly does make sense, in an all too human way.

I truly believe in that saying that it is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles.[/QUOTE]

To clarify, I didn't mean it to say that he's on some crusade of revenge to get back at a university system he did poorly in.

But rather just that he's one of those people who never gave a crap about school and still ended up on top so he doesn't at all see the value or purpose of higher education. It's just a place to get a piece of paper that many places require to even get your foot in the door--thus he wants to just turn it into big business and give out cheap degrees.

And yes those two points from the original article are counter-intuitive--hence his D in "Principles of Economics"! :D
 
[quote name='boredcollegekid']In regards to the finding a job after graduating issue. Not sure how it is where you guys live, here in Florida though most if not all my graduate buddies have actually moved forward with internships which then turned into jobs. It's easy to say that finding a job is hard when most of the information is coming from friends who have recently graduated. But are we looking to see whether or not they put forth the effort to get these said jobs if they're graduating with mediocre degrees that a scholarship/mommy-daddy paid for? I'm about a semester off from graduating and I've gotten a number of job offers. I may not have as much experience as a seasoned veteran who's been in the industry for a number of years, but I do have a resume to reflect all the hard work I put through. I'm not saying it's easy to find a job in this market, but being honest I know quite a bit of people who complain through life when things don't go their way.
(ex: They didn't get hired, they didn't get an A, they didn't pass an exam, they didn't get a BMW but got a Mercedes instead)

I guess my point in saying all this, are those individuals qualified for those jobs to begin with. There are a lot of individuals who graduate who aren't qualified to hold that degree. (controversial I know)

To add to this, professors who want to do research and don't really want to teach, will give out easy grades so they can worry less about students learning and more about doing their own research. (Sounds hard to believe, but in my 5 years in college, I've seen this happen a number of times to myself and colleagues.)

As I said before, I'm not doubting the job market is tough right now, but using your brain once in a while will make it VERY easy to land a job. Simple things that people overlook that could've helped them land that job.
Such as: Taking class more seriously (again, being honest it's hard to do a lot of the time), having a respectable resume (meaning taking pride in that resume), going to interviews prepared. (not only dressed for the job/interview, but respectful to the interviewer, as well as having legitimate responses and asking about the company philosophy, mission statement, etc.)

This might be a rant, but I hope what I've tried to communicate is to point with this topic.[/QUOTE]
So with 9-10% reported unemployment rate with tens of millions of job seekers, a recent, or otherwise, college grad is some how going to jump to the top of the stack when there are over 5 workers for every opening?

There's some very good AND SOLID info based on FACTS in this thread. It'd be nice if you used some of that college book learnin' and applied that instead of using yer guts.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What you're telling us, then, is that you were fully prepared for the business management world at the age of 18. Just do we're clear, you fully agree with this?
[/QUOTE]

To be fair he didn't say that, but rather that he thinks he'd be in the same place today if he'd spent the time he was in college learning a trade etc.

And that is true for a lot of people. If they just want to work and make money, trade school or community college maybe be a better option as it's more practical experience and will get them in the work force a couple years earlier.

Either way (that or college) the key is making connections so you can get a job and have a chance to work your way up.

So I mostly agree with him, and relates to the early points we both made about too many people going to college who really don't want to be their. If someone doesn't want to learn and be well rounded, and just wants to learn things directly related to their future profession and get a piece of paper that will get their foot in the door, then a trade school or 2 year degree is probably better for them. And better for us as we don't have to deal with as many uninterested students in our classrooms. :D
 
[quote name='dohdough']So with 9-10% reported unemployment rate with tens of millions of job seekers, a recent, or otherwise, college grad is some how going to jump to the top of the stack when there are over 5 workers for every opening?
[/QUOTE]

His point about internships is valid though.

As I think I mentioned earlier, the undergrad degree in my department has a built in internship, and a lot of our grads the past few semesters are ending up getting full time jobs with their agencies.

No doubt there are people with more experience applying for these positions. But the hiring people know the person who just interned there can do a good job, gets along with everyone etc., so that familiarity is a big leg up.

That said, not every major has a built in internship requirement that places students in internships. And they can be hard to get on your own otherwise in many fields.
 
A 2 year degree is worthless frankly. It isn't going to get you into work any faster. I looked for a bit, but I never took any time off, I knew I'd need at least a 2 year degree for any decent job. Wish I had more opportunities to network, but career fairs at my school were a joke. No chance to make any meaningful contacts. You'd think some of the faculty might keep connections with local businesses, but none seemed to have.

And unfortunately just cold applying for jobs often times is no more successful than trying to get a date that way. If you don't have a friend or colleague to introduce you it's much harder. I'd say it's better to sacrifice grades a bit and network more, than to focus solely on academics and never meet anyone. Because in the end the company you're trying to get a job with probably isn't going to care about your GPA.
 
Well, I'm no expert on 2-year degrees for sure!

My thoughts were that some community colleges and trade schools would be more tied into industries than a research university. So maybe there would be more chances for internships and job placements etc.

But yes, networking is key. And yeah, faculty aren't always going to have contacts with local businesses. It really varies by field. In criminal justice, a lot of profs are working with local PDs and courts etc. so the connections are there. Other fields are less focused on field research so profs don't need those kind of connections to do their research work.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']His point about internships is valid though.

As I think I mentioned earlier, the undergrad degree in my department has a built in internship, and a lot of our grads the past few semesters are ending up getting full time jobs with their agencies.

No doubt there are people with more experience applying for these positions. But the hiring people know the person who just interned there can do a good job, gets along with everyone etc., so that familiarity is a big leg up.

That said, not every major has a built in internship requirement that places students in internships. And they can be hard to get on your own otherwise in many fields.[/QUOTE]
This would be fine if he didn't back it up with *bootstraps!* If it was all a matter of "hard work," then day laborers would be the richest fucks on earth. In matter of fact, he said it was "VERY easy" to find a job if you use your brain once in a while. Literally.

A broken clock might be right twice a day, but I'm not going to give the guy credit for not showing his work.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']To clarify, I didn't mean it to say that he's on some crusade of revenge to get back at a university system he did poorly in.

But rather just that he's one of those people who never gave a crap about school and still ended up on top so he doesn't at all see the value or purpose of higher education. It's just a place to get a piece of paper that many places require to even get your foot in the door--thus he wants to just turn it into big business and give out cheap degrees.

And yes those two points from the original article are counter-intuitive--hence his D in "Principles of Economics"! :D[/QUOTE]

Good point, he failed spectacularly. He could have probably at least gotten some sympathy grades if he had put in some effort.

Still, I never discount 'revenge on the world' as a motive for conservative politicians.
 
Yeah I don't know how you get a C in a college gym class. Those are usually designed just to get students off their asses.
 
Just skipping class would be my guess as the ones (strength training and Tae Kwan Do) I had were pretty much just graded on attendance and participation.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What you're telling us, then, is that you were fully prepared for the business management world at the age of 18. Just do we're clear, you fully agree with this?



Clarify this sentence, as it's positively nonsense otherwise. Easy, but you must study your ass off to get a C? You do realize how absurd that sounds, right?[/QUOTE]

Was I ready at 18? No, but there wasn't much I was taught that I didn't learn from 6 years of retail management as well as independent study on business and finance issues didn't. For example, a lot of the material covered in the economics courses I took were based on material from the book "Freakanomics", which I had read, on my own, a few years prior when it was released. I guess I learned some stuff in regards to finance, math, and statistics but since I didn't really relate to the material outside of a classroom setting, I didn't retain much if any of it, so it was largely a waste. The only useful skill I could say I was taught in accounting was Accounting, and even then I never had to progress much further than basic level stuff I could have figured out using a checkbook register.

I thought I was pretty clear in the second statement. It's easy in the sense that the professor expects nothing out of you, doesn't take attendance, doesn't assign homework, and doesn't care. If you already know the material, it would be a cakewalk. The class is easy, it's the grade that's tough to get. This as opposed to a teacher that actually might require attendance, participation, and work outside the classroom. The class itself may be seen as a pain in the ass to some, but since your grade is determined by more than just your ability to memorize and vomit knowledge onto a standardized test, it's actually easier to do well.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Just skipping class would be my guess as the ones (strength training and Tae Kwan Do) I had were pretty much just graded on attendance and participation.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but goto a gym class and chance messing up that awesome hair? No way, that's not Perry's style.
 
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