How religious are you?

[quote name='MrBadExample']Which atheist:
started the Crusades?
ran the Inquisition?
burned witches at the stake?
are warring in the Middle East?
covered up child molestation by Priests?
promoted slavery?[/quote]

Well no atheist did, although I'm sure that some were involved. Those were "religious" people. But all types of people do all types of horrible things. It is the curse of the human condition, shit happens and then you die. How about we just friken try to understand what the hell is going on in someone elses head. If i can try to make an honest attempt at figuring out your P.O.V., the least you can do is the same for me.
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943']When it comes to abusing people and taking away freedoms nobody can match the atheists.[/quote]

And I thought you wouldn't say anything crazier than your earlier miracle story. Kudos.
 
Inmate, and jmcc for that reason... this can be compared to faniboyism intrerestingly enough. When your looking through this forum, and you see XBOX is TEH SUXORS. You ignore it, because you know that this person is obviously an idiot. The problem taking this mentality to this thread is that this shit is important to people. Religion, spirituality, and the like is important because, in a way, it defines who you are and what you do. Instead of making blanket statements like you would make about your thoughts on a game, or a specific system... think for a second the brevity of the subject you are argueing with a person. Then you'll actually start to learn and become a better person instead of just hitting your heads against eachother.
 
[quote name='pumbaa']Inmate, and jmcc for that reason... this can be compared to faniboyism intrerestingly enough. When your looking through this forum, and you see XBOX is TEH SUXORS. You ignore it, because you know that this person is obviously an idiot. The problem taking this mentality to this thread is that this shit is important to people. Religion, spirituality, and the like is important because, in a way, it defines who you are and what you do. Instead of making blanket statements like you would make about your thoughts on a game, or a specific system... think for a second the brevity of the subject you are argueing with a person. Then you'll actually start to learn and become a better person instead of just hitting your heads against eachother.[/quote]

What are you yammering about? He claimed atheism is resposible for more suffering than organized religions, which is patently false. He also claimed to have personally experienced a miracle, which he completely backed away from when asked what the nature of it was, leading me to believe that's another lie. Why am I supposed to accommodate him again? It seems like trolling behavior.
 
[quote name='jmcc'][quote name='pumbaa']Inmate, and jmcc for that reason... this can be compared to faniboyism intrerestingly enough. When your looking through this forum, and you see XBOX is TEH SUXORS. You ignore it, because you know that this person is obviously an idiot. The problem taking this mentality to this thread is that this shit is important to people. Religion, spirituality, and the like is important because, in a way, it defines who you are and what you do. Instead of making blanket statements like you would make about your thoughts on a game, or a specific system... think for a second the brevity of the subject you are argueing with a person. Then you'll actually start to learn and become a better person instead of just hitting your heads against eachother.[/quote]

What are you yammering about? He claimed atheism is resposible for more suffering than organized religions, which is patently false. He also claimed to have personally experienced a miracle, which he completely backed away from when asked what the nature of it was, leading me to believe that's another lie. Why am I supposed to accommodate him again? It seems like trolling behavior.[/quote]

Look, do whatever the hell you want. All I'm saying is that if you stepped back... BOTH OF YOU, for a sec and looked at each other from an object point of view... you may learn something. I'll stop yammering if its getting in the way of you getting nowhere...

EDIT: Your comic is damn funny BTW... Just read it... but yeah... FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!
 
[quote name='pumbaa'][quote name='jmcc'][quote name='pumbaa']Inmate, and jmcc for that reason... this can be compared to faniboyism intrerestingly enough. When your looking through this forum, and you see XBOX is TEH SUXORS. You ignore it, because you know that this person is obviously an idiot. The problem taking this mentality to this thread is that this shit is important to people. Religion, spirituality, and the like is important because, in a way, it defines who you are and what you do. Instead of making blanket statements like you would make about your thoughts on a game, or a specific system... think for a second the brevity of the subject you are argueing with a person. Then you'll actually start to learn and become a better person instead of just hitting your heads against eachother.[/quote]

What are you yammering about? He claimed atheism is resposible for more suffering than organized religions, which is patently false. He also claimed to have personally experienced a miracle, which he completely backed away from when asked what the nature of it was, leading me to believe that's another lie. Why am I supposed to accommodate him again? It seems like trolling behavior.[/quote]

Look, do whatever the hell you want. All I'm saying is that if you stepped back... BOTH OF YOU, for a sec and looked at each other from an object point of view... you may learn something. I'll stop yammering if its getting in the way of you getting nowhere...[/quote]

I'm not debating the religious aspect here. I don't care what people believe until they negatively affect other people because of it. I'm taking issue with the fact that he's making wild claims with nothing to back them up. Why you're against that, I don't know, but debunking lies isn't something I'm going to "step back" from.
 
Oooo.....I can't resist this so please don't take offense-
These are Bad Examples. :D

[quote name='MrBadExample']Which atheist:
started the Crusades? [/quote]

It was Francois De Hanvre a renowned French atheist. only kidding :D

[quote name='MrBadExample']ran the Inquisition?[/quote]

I admit, it was Catholics.

[quote name='MrBadExample']burned witches at the stake?[/quote]

(gulp) It be Christians again. But the number actually burned at the stake is extremely exaggerated.

[quote name='MrBadExample']are warring in the Middle East?[/quote]

Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

[quote name='MrBadExample']covered up child molestation by Priests?[/quote]

That is purely a bigoted remark. Atheists love to bring this up for some reason I don't quite understand.
You never seem to bring up the priests that do a tremendous amount of good.
Like the priest that runs an orphanage in Nyumbani Kenya for HIV abandoned infants.
He finds infants and young children left on the street to die, takes them in and cares for them.
Or Sister Theresa and all the incredible work she did throughout her life.
You atheists like to gloss over Christians like these 2 and the hundreds of thousands
of other Christians who work round the world to help the poor, the sick and the needy.

Can you name any atheist who provides charitable work on this scale anywhere in the world?
Of course not! Because atheists only take pleasure in lip-service and not action.
Unless that action is to deprive Christians of something that pertains to their faith.

[quote name='MrBadExample']promoted slavery?[/quote]
And who ended slavery? It was Christian Republicans that ended slavery.
A small point the liberal atheist establishment would like us to forget.

Now let me ask you, what Christian government has killed over 18 million of its own citizens?
The answer is none! It was the atheist Soviet government that slaughtered its own, took away freedom,
banned religion and imprisoned millions in gulags.

Throw in the atheist (killing fields) Cambodian, atheist Chinese and atheist North Korean governments and you'll never
throughout history find the wholesale slaughter of people on the scale that was done by atheists.

P.S. Now don't take offense to any of the above and get mad at me. I'm starting to get outnumbered here. :wink:
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943']
[quote name='MrBadExample']covered up child molestation by Priests?[/quote]

That is purely a bigoted remark. Atheists love to bring this up for some reason I don't quite understand.
[/quote]

You do the same thing with atheism.
 
[quote name='Isles Guru']Aw c'mon, how come no one has answered my question?[/quote]

[quote name='Isles Guru']So how many people on this site believe that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior before you die yada yada you will spend an eternity in hell REGARDLESS of how good a person you may be.[/quote]

I don't.
 
[quote name='Isles Guru']So how many people on this site believe that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior before you die yada yada you will spend an eternity in hell REGARDLESS of how good a person you may be.[/quote]

I don't even think Jesus Christ himself believed this.
 
[quote name='camoor'][quote name='Isles Guru']So how many people on this site believe that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord and Savior before you die yada yada you will spend an eternity in hell REGARDLESS of how good a person you may be.[/quote]

I don't even think Jesus Christ himself believed this.[/quote]

Nope, he didn't. Biblical Jesus (which by no means is necessarily "real" Jesus) was all about universalism... trying to bring the gentiles and the jews together. (That's Lukes version anyways). As for the real Jesus... he may have been like this as well, but not as generalized.
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='MrBadExample']covered up child molestation by Priests?[/quote]

That is purely a bigoted remark. Atheists love to bring this up for some reason I don't quite understand.
You never seem to bring up the priests that do a tremendous amount of good. [/quote]

If you'll notice. I didn't say all priests were child molesters. I put the blame on the higher-ups who for decades shifted the bad priests from one parish to another letting them continue to molest innocent children. To molest a child is sick but to help cover it up is heinous.

[quote name='Inmate #10943']
And who ended slavery? It was Christian Republicans that ended slavery.
A small point the liberal atheist establishment would like us to forget. [/quote]

It's good that they cleaned up their own mess there.

[quote name='Inmate #10943']Now let me ask you, what Christian government has killed over 18 million of its own citizens?
The answer is none! It was the atheist Soviet government that slaughtered its own, took away freedom,
banned religion and imprisoned millions in gulags.

Throw in the atheist (killing fields) Cambodian, atheist Chinese and atheist North Korean governments and you'll never
throughout history find the wholesale slaughter of people on the scale that was done by atheists.[/quote]

Let's not confuse atheist as meaning non-christian. Throughout all of human history man has fought wars in the name of their invisible friend - Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Vishnu, Mars, etc.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample']Let's not confuse atheist as meaning non-christian. Throughout all of human history man has fought wars in the name of their invisible friend - Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Vishnu, Mars, etc.[/quote]

No! I'm not confusing "non-Christians" with atheists. I don't consider any of the above to be atheists.
And definitely the combined group above has done its share of killing people.
But absolutely no where does it compare to the slaughter of people by atheists.

The governments of the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea and Cambodia (Pol Pot) were controlled by atheists.
That is a fact!
The level of genocide and suffering of the populace by these atheists governments is unmatched anywhere in history by any religious government.
That is a fact!
Atheists should just face up to the facts and acknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by atheists.
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943']
And definitely the combined group above has done its share of killing people.
But absolutely no where does it compare to the slaughter of people by atheists.

The governments of the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea and Cambodia (Pol Pot) were controlled by atheists.
That is a fact!
The level of genocide and suffering of the populace by these atheists governments is unmatched anywhere in history by any religious government.
That is a fact!
Atheists should just face up to the facts and acknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by atheists.[/quote]

This will sound like a convenient argument on my part, but you can't lump all atheists together just because they don't believe in a higher power. That's like stereotyping all non-Americans as behaving in one way. There are moral and immoral atheists just as there are moral and immoral Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
 
[quote name='MrBadExample'][quote name='Inmate #10943']
And definitely the combined group above has done its share of killing people.
But absolutely no where does it compare to the slaughter of people by atheists.

The governments of the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea and Cambodia (Pol Pot) were controlled by atheists.
That is a fact!
The level of genocide and suffering of the populace by these atheists governments is unmatched anywhere in history by any religious government.
That is a fact!
Atheists should just face up to the facts and acknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by atheists.[/quote]

This will sound like a convenient argument on my part, but you can't lump all atheists together just because they don't believe in a higher power. That's like stereotyping all non-Americans as behaving in one way. There are moral and immoral atheists just as there are moral and immoral Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.[/quote]

Great point. After all, when talking about Christians I would never lump people who are Lutherans in with people who are Branch Davidians, even though both groups are Christian.
 
[quote name='Inmate #10943']No! I'm not confusing "non-Christians" with atheists. I don't consider any of the above to be atheists.
And definitely the combined group above has done its share of killing people.
But absolutely no where does it compare to the slaughter of people by atheists.

The governments of the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea and Cambodia (Pol Pot) were controlled by atheists.
That is a fact!
The level of genocide and suffering of the populace by these atheists governments is unmatched anywhere in history by any religious government.
That is a fact!
Atheists should just face up to the facts and acknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by atheists.[/quote]

One of the most famous Christians was a German fellow named Adolf Hitler, as was his congregation of nazis and the Schutzstaffel, who willingly participated in the cold blooded murder of over 8 million humans.
That is a fact!

During the crusades groups of Christians roamed Europe murdering people who didn't convert to Christianity.
That is a fact!

Christians should just face up to the facts and aknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by Christians.
 
Inmate, you're done. You've run your mouth about things you know nothing about. You've used the term "you atheists" far too many times, and that hasn't helped your professed claims to be a good, religious person.

Particularily, when it comes to atheist nations, you are making so many illogical conclusions it hurts.

Let me try to explain...

You are implying that, by nature of being atheist, those countries performed those atrocities. In other words, you are saying that because they were athiests, they executed millions of people. That is ridiculously wrong.

These nations you listed were not atheist nations. They were Communist nations. Communist leaders cared about preventing revolt, not what God you prayed to/believe in. By banning anything religious, they hoped to stop an easy avenue for revolt...that is to say, religious beliefs tend to be a compelling impetus for rebellion.

They killed those millions of people not because they were atheists, but because they were Communists who wanted to eliminate opposition. Being atheist had nothing to do with the atrocities they executed.

Now, let's move on to the wars and strifes started by religious groups. Those who started, and went on, the Crusades did so BECAUSE of their religious beliefs. The same can be said about many other religious battles.

In the end, all I'm saying is this. Atheistic beliefs WERE NOT the reason for the atrocities in the Communist countries. Religious beliefs WERE the reason for the atrocities in the Crusades, Middle East, etc...
 
I believe Hitler's family was Jewish or of Jewish descent; his real name was Schickelgruber. He did use a lot of Christian ideology [very bastardized, of course] in his 'politics', along with a lot of Pagan-type ideals.
And Quackzilla does make a good point: sure, atheists have killed a lot of people, but I can't recall many politicians/military folks who committed their warfare *in the name of atheism*, unlike things like the Crusades or the current Jihad.
Now, it could be argued that the atheism, lacking an external central source of morals, values, and reward/punishment, *led to* those people's brutality. I'm not making that argument, but I could see it being made.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']I believe Hitler's family was Jewish or of Jewish descent; his real name was Schickelgruber. He did use a lot of Christian ideology [very bastardized, of course] in his 'politics', along with a lot of Pagan-type ideals.
And Quackzilla does make a good point: sure, atheists have killed a lot of people, but I can't recall many politicians/military folks who committed their warfare *in the name of atheism*, unlike things like the Crusades or the current Jihad.
Now, it could be argued that the atheism, lacking an external central source of morals, values, and reward/punishment, *led to* those people's brutality. I'm not making that argument, but I could see it being made.[/quote]

I believe his Jewish blood comes from his grandmother (the people's she worked for were Jewish, and his grandma got it on with the man of the house)

I could be wrong, but this is what I remember from a Euro class I took 2 or so years ago
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Now, it could be argued that the atheism, lacking an external central source of morals, values, and reward/punishment, *led to* those people's brutality. I'm not making that argument, but I could see it being made.[/quote]

Yes, but Athiests can also be humanists and therefore they can have an external source of morals, namely their faith in the basic good of their fellow man.

Humanism - A philosophical system of thought that focuses on human value, thought, and actions. Humans are considered basically good and rationale creatures who can improve themselves and others through natural human abilities of reason and action. Secular Humanism is a late development emphasizing objectivity, human reason, and human standards that govern art, economics, ethics, and belief. As such, no deity is acknowledged.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='camoor'][quote name='dtcarson']Now, it could be argued that the atheism, lacking an external central source of morals, values, and reward/punishment, *led to* those people's brutality. I'm not making that argument, but I could see it being made.[/quote]

Yes, but Athiests can also be humanists and therefore they can have an external source of morals, namely their faith in the basic good of their fellow man.
[/quote]

And just because someone has religious beliefs does not mean they will always follow the lofty morals of their faith. Televangelists are a wonderful example.
 
Religious people follow morals, that is obeying the set laws, but if a law doesn't restrict it than it is okay.

I believe in ethics instead of morals, doing things because they are right, and not doing thigs because they are wrong.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']...that is obeying the set laws, but if a law doesn't restrict it than it is okay...[/quote]

Basis of the concept of liberty and the Constitution. Those powers not delegated to the congress.......

I believe in ethics instead of morals, doing things because they are right, and not doing thigs because they are wrong.
Click to expand...

ethics=morals. It just depends on what principles your ethics, or morals, are based upon.
 
Ethics aren't the exact same thing as morals; we studied this in philosophy. I don't recall what the difference is, however.
Here's one example:
" Moral applies to personal character and behavior, especially sexual conduct: “Our moral sense dictates a clearcut preference for these societies which share with us an abiding respect for individual human rights” (Jimmy Carter). Ethical stresses idealistic standards of right and wrong: “Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants” (Omar N. Bradley)."

Regarding televangelists: No argument here. There are bad 'everythings', from cops who break the law, to teachers who abuse kids, to politicians who claim to speak for the little people yet view them as peons. That comes from being human, and doesn't necessarily invalidate a moral/ethical stand.
Like the Bill Bennett/Book of Virtues things; I have the Book of Virtues, and it's a really good read. I saw nothing inherently hypocritical about his situation. The whole book has as its basis 'We are human, we are flawed, we succumb, these are virtues we should aspire to.' No one is perfect, and he made that point extremely visible--it doesn't invalidate the point he was trying to make with the book.
I think saying "Religious people follow morals, that is obeying the set laws, but if a law doesn't restrict it than it is okay' is a massive generalization--many religious people don't do things not because theyr'e against the law, but because they're wrong. that they happen to be against the law is extra.
Not doing something merely due to fear of punishment is like the 2nd out of 5 stages of moral evolution and virtue.

"Humanism - A philosophical system of thought that focuses on human value, thought, and actions. Humans are considered basically good and rationale creatures who can improve themselves and others through natural human abilities of reason and action. Secular Humanism is a late development emphasizing objectivity, human reason, and human standards that govern art, economics, ethics, and belief. As such, no deity is acknowledged. "

I guess I kinda fit as this, except for one thing--I don't believe people are 'basically good'. I think people are basically lazy/neutral, with the capacity to do and be good [or evil or bad.]
I don't know about 'objectivity...that governs art.' I'm not an artist, but to me art is very subjective.
 
Ethics are based on the differentiation of bad and good, as prescribed by societal beliefs as a whole.

Morals are based on the differentiation of bad and good, as prescribed by personal beliefs.

Though ethics and morals often result in the same "response", they are still a little different.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']
Humanism - A philosophical system of thought that focuses on human value, thought, and actions. Humans are considered basically good and rationale creatures who can improve themselves and others through natural human abilities of reason and action. Secular Humanism is a late development emphasizing objectivity, human reason, and human standards that govern art, economics, ethics, and belief. As such, no deity is acknowledged.
Click to expand...
I guess I kinda fit as this, except for one thing--I don't believe people are 'basically good'. I think people are basically lazy/neutral, with the capacity to do and be good [or evil or bad.]
I don't know about 'objectivity...that governs art.' I'm not an artist, but to me art is very subjective.[/quote]

Yeah, but have you ever seen the skyscrapers in Chicago? Or the San Francisco Bridge? Or the modern marvels of the internet, cellular communication, transportation system, etc.

Hard to believe that any of this could be constructed and maintained if people were naturally lazy.

The same goes for our society. I don't help an old lady across the street because I want a reward or it's the law, I do it because it's the right thing to do. I'm positive that more then 70% of the human population has a fair share of altruism running through their blood, even if some of their ideals may be misdirected.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla'][quote name='Inmate #10943']No! I'm not confusing "non-Christians" with atheists. I don't consider any of the above to be atheists.
And definitely the combined group above has done its share of killing people.
But absolutely no where does it compare to the slaughter of people by atheists.

The governments of the former Soviet Union, China, North Korea and Cambodia (Pol Pot) were controlled by atheists.
That is a fact!
The level of genocide and suffering of the populace by these atheists governments is unmatched anywhere in history by any religious government.
That is a fact!
Atheists should just face up to the facts and acknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by atheists.[/quote]

One of the most famous Christians was a German fellow named Adolf Hitler, as was his congregation of nazis and the Schutzstaffel, who willingly participated in the cold blooded murder of over 8 million humans.
That is a fact!

During the crusades groups of Christians roamed Europe murdering people who didn't convert to Christianity.
That is a fact!

Christians should just face up to the facts and aknowledge the atrocities and genocidal acts committed by Christians.[/quote]

Please don't do this. Sure it happened, that's in the past. (Most) Every religious group has done something bad. The Hindus horribly mistreat their lower castes. The Muslims have their jihads. Heck, Christians have killed Christians. Should all Chrisitans have to suffer for the acts of a couple radicals? No. Neither should anyone really.

Back to the original topic. I'm pretty religious, goto church most every Sunday. Of course, I'm in one of the most liberal churches out there. It'll drive you nuts Scrub :)

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html
 
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