How the U.S. Became the World's Dispensable Nation

ZarathosNY

CAGiversary!
Financial Times, 25 January 2005
How the U.S. Became the World's Dispensable Nation
by Michael Lind

In a second inaugural address tinged with evangelical zeal, George W. Bush declared: "Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world." The peoples of the world, however, do not seem to be listening. A new world order is indeed emerging - but its architecture is being drafted in Asia and Europe, at meetings to which Americans have not been invited.

Consider Asean Plus Three (APT), which unites the member countries of the Association of Southeast Asia Nations with China, Japan and South Korea. This group has the potential to be the world's largest trade bloc, dwarfing the European Union and North American Free Trade Association. The deepening ties of the APT member states represent a major diplomatic defeat for the US, which hoped to use the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum to limit the growth of Asian economic regionalism at American expense. In the same way, recent moves by South American countries to bolster an economic community represent a clear rejection of US aims to dominate a western-hemisphere free trade zone.

Consider, as well, the EU's rapid progress toward military independence. American protests failed to prevent the EU establishing its own military planning agency, independent of the Nato alliance (and thus of Washington). Europe is building up its own rapid reaction force. And despite US resistance, the EU is developing Galileo, its own satellite network, which will break the monopoly of the US global positioning satellite system.

The participation of China in Europe's Galileo project has alarmed the US military. But China shares an interest with other aspiring space powers in preventing American control of space for military and commercial uses. Even while collaborating with Europe on Galileo, China is partnering Brazil to launch satellites. And in an unprecedented move, China recently agreed to host Russian forces for joint Russo-Chinese military exercises.

The US is being sidelined even in the area that Mr Bush identified in last week's address as America's mission: the promotion of democracy and human rights. The EU has devoted far more resources to consolidating democracy in post-communist Europe than has the US. By contrast, under Mr Bush, the US hypocritically uses the promotion of democracy as the rationale for campaigns against states it opposes for strategic reasons. Washington denounces tyranny in Iran but tolerates it in Pakistan. In Iraq, the goal of democratisation was invoked only after the invasion, which was justified earlier by claims that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was collaborating with al-Qaeda.

Nor is American democracy a shining example to mankind. The present one-party rule in the US has been produced in part by the artificial redrawing of political districts to favour Republicans, reinforcing the domination of money in American politics. America's judges -- many of whom will be appointed by Mr Bush -- increasingly behave as partisan political activists in black robes. America's antiquated winner-take-all electoral system has been abandoned by most other democracies for more inclusive versions of proportional representation.

In other areas of global moral and institutional reform, the US today is a follower rather than a leader. Human rights? Europe has banned the death penalty and torture, while the US is a leading practitioner of execution. Under Mr Bush, the US has constructed an international military gulag in which the torture of suspects has frequently occurred. The international rule of law? For generations, promoting international law in collaboration with other nations was a US goal. But the neoconservatives who dominate Washington today mock the very idea of international law. The next US attorney general will be the White House counsel who scorned the Geneva Conventions as obsolete.

A decade ago, American triumphalists mocked those who argued that the world was becoming multipolar, rather than unipolar. Where was the evidence of balancing against the US, they asked. Today the evidence of foreign co-operation to reduce American primacy is everywhere -- from the increasing importance of regional trade blocs that exclude the US to international space projects and military exercises in which the US is conspicuous by its absence.

It is true that the US remains the only country capable of projecting military power throughout the world. But unipolarity in the military sphere, narrowly defined, is not preventing the rapid development of multipolarity in the geopolitical and economic arenas -- far from it. And the other great powers are content to let the US waste blood and treasure on its doomed attempt to recreate the post-first world war British imperium in the Middle East.

That the rest of the world is building institutions and alliances that shut out the US should come as no surprise. The view that American leaders can be trusted to use a monopoly of military and economic power for the good of humanity has never been widely shared outside of the US. The trend toward multipolarity has probably been accelerated by the truculent unilateralism of the Bush administration, whose motto seems to be that of the Hollywood mogul: "Include me out."

In recent memory, nothing could be done without the US. Today, however, practically all new international institution-building of any long-term importance in global diplomacy and trade occurs without American participation.

In 1998 Madeleine Albright, then US secretary of state, said of the U.S.: "We are the indispensable nation." By backfiring, the unilateralism of Mr Bush has proven her wrong. The US, it turns out, is a dispensable nation.

Europe, China, Russia, Latin America and other regions and nations are quietly taking measures whose effect if not sole purpose will be to cut America down to size.

Ironically, the US, having won the cold war, is adopting the strategy that led the Soviet Union to lose it: hoping that raw military power will be sufficient to intimidate other great powers alienated by its belligerence. To compound the irony, these other great powers are drafting the blueprints for new international institutions and alliances. That is what the US did during and after the second world war.

But that was a different America, led by wise and constructive statesmen like Dean Acheson, the secretary of state who wrote of being "present at the creation." The bullying approach of the Bush administration has ensured that the US will not be invited to take part in designing the international architecture of Europe and Asia in the 21st century. This time, the US is absent at the creation.

The writer is senior fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington, DC
 
If Bush is in fact operating on Christian end-times theory, this actually would be his goal. The problem is that the United States (and in fact the entire 'New World' of America) isn't mentioned in Revelations. For people who believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, there's only 2 explainations - the United States in destroyed (most likely by nuclear war) or the United States becomes extremely isolationist and simply sits the end times out.

Bush could actually be trying to 'protect' the United States by getting us so sick of interfering with other countries, and other countries getting sick of us interferring, that the US is able to safely sit on the sidelines while the world ends.

Just an interesting thought.
 
The problem is these things happens slowly. The average american can't comprehend a world where the u.s. is not the dominant force, and seems to think our empire is eternal, the only exception to world history. The way we are positioning ourselves, even moreso since bush has been president, they work with us out of necessity. Once our support is no longer needed, there is little about us and our actions that will make us a good partner. Throughout history, nations that have looked inward have failed, stalled and stepped backward, China being the best example of this. They were superior to the west, scientifically and militarily (later in their history even as a naval power) up to the 14th and early 15th century but had turned inward and regressed. By the time the portugese arrived, in ships that probably wouldn't have survived a naval confrontation with China a century before, china had regressed. The chinese marveled at portugese inventions that China had already invented, but had forgotten. In contrast. the great advancements in chinese history came from outside, the mongols and arabs.

Now obviously I'm not advocating an outside force should invade us, or even that a fall in modern times, with all the international connections, would be as dramatic. But a fall to the point where we are no longer the dominant and most powerful nation is extremely likely, and isolationist policies will only make it worse when that does occur.
 
Related article on Slate:

2020 Vision

A CIA report predicts that American global dominance could end in 15 years.

By Fred Kaplan
Posted Wednesday, Jan. 26, 2005, at 2:48 PM PT


Who will be the first politician brave enough to declare publicly that the United States is a declining power and that America's leaders must urgently discuss what to do about it? This prognosis of decline comes not (or not only) from leftist scribes rooting for imperialism's downfall, but from the National Intelligence Council—the "center of strategic thinking" inside the U.S. intelligence community.
The NIC's conclusions are starkly presented in a new 119-page document, "Mapping the Global Future: Report of the National Intelligence Council's 2020 Project." It is unclassified and available on the CIA's Web site. The report has received modest press attention the past couple weeks, mainly for its prediction that, in the year 2020, "political Islam" will still be "a potent force." Only a few stories or columns have taken note of its central conclusion:

The likely emergence of China and India ... as new major global players—similar to the advent of a united Germany in the 19th century and a powerful United States in the early 20th century—will transform the geopolitical landscape with impacts potentially as dramatic as those in the previous two centuries.

Here is the rest of the article.
 
[quote name='Neko Hime']Related article on Slate:

2020 Vision

A CIA report predicts that American global dominance could end in 15 years.

By Fred Kaplan
Posted Wednesday, Jan. 26, 2005, at 2:48 PM PT


Who will be the first politician brave enough to declare publicly that the United States is a declining power and that America's leaders must urgently discuss what to do about it? This prognosis of decline comes not (or not only) from leftist scribes rooting for imperialism's downfall, but from the National Intelligence Council—the "center of strategic thinking" inside the U.S. intelligence community.
The NIC's conclusions are starkly presented in a new 119-page document, "Mapping the Global Future: Report of the National Intelligence Council's 2020 Project." It is unclassified and available on the CIA's Web site. The report has received modest press attention the past couple weeks, mainly for its prediction that, in the year 2020, "political Islam" will still be "a potent force." Only a few stories or columns have taken note of its central conclusion:

The likely emergence of China and India ... as new major global players—similar to the advent of a united Germany in the 19th century and a powerful United States in the early 20th century—will transform the geopolitical landscape with impacts potentially as dramatic as those in the previous two centuries.

Here is the rest of the article.[/quote]

We were discussing this in a comparative government class today. The EU continues to grow stronger, and there are many nations rapidly growing.

Though the only thing I disagree with is China becoming a major player. Once the Levono (sp? ) is unpegged from the dollar, much of the appeal of making products there will disappear as it will raise the cost of making products there.

Also if the US does not do something about the deficit and China pulls out its bonds, we will be completely ruined economically
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']Though the only thing I disagree with is China becoming a major player. Once the Levono (sp? ) is unpegged from the dollar, much of the appeal of making products there will disappear as it will raise the cost of making products there. [/quote]
By the time that happens, though (and actually, its probably happened), they'll have sucked enough money out of the US that their economic power will be self-sustained. They won't need to be the world's cheap-labor supplier for making shoddy, low-priced goods. They've made major strides in this direction and the speed is moving faster every day.

Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that the US was little more than a good place to buy cheap cotton.
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='CaseyRyback']Though the only thing I disagree with is China becoming a major player. Once the Levono (sp? ) is unpegged from the dollar, much of the appeal of making products there will disappear as it will raise the cost of making products there. [/quote]
By the time that happens, though (and actually, its probably happened), they'll have sucked enough money out of the US that their economic power will be self-sustained. They won't need to be the world's cheap-labor supplier for making shoddy, low-priced goods. They've made major strides in this direction and the speed is moving faster every day.

Don't forget that it wasn't that long ago that the US was little more than a good place to buy cheap cotton.[/quote]

ah, but they do not want the US to be weak, that is the reason that they heavily invest into the US. They have so much tied up in bonds, that they are hating this weakening dollar.

they could re-invest in their own country, but they do not want to over-invest and plan to grow slowly. They have been actively trying to slow growth as they do not have the capacity to deal with the demands of the companies out there trying to get a piece of the cheap labor.

The best idea I heard recently to help keep America in power, was from a republican senator from Georgia. He was talking about a federal tax that would take the place of the income tax. He said that if they could do this, it would help a lot as it would eliminate a lot of the black market revunue that does not get taxed. He even said it would effectively eliminate the deficit.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']ah, but they do not want the US to be weak, that is the reason that they heavily invest into the US. They have so much tied up in bonds, that they are hating this weakening dollar. [/quote]
I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that they enjoy having power over us by causing us to become more and more dependent on them. And fact is that we ARE dependent on them, and becoming more dependent on them with every passing year. If they call in their bonds, the US will have little choice but to default on them, completely destroying our country's financial position in the world economy. The value of the dollar would plummet to virtually nill, our financial markets would be ruined, banks would go under (and forget the FDIC at that point.) Combine that with closing off our market for cheap imports at the same time, and we'd be royally fucked.

And let me assure you, they know that. That IS the plan. The further the US goes into debt, the more power they have over us. Their climb to a world superpower is going to be over our corpse (figuratively speaking. I hope.)

The best idea I heard recently to help keep America in power, was from a republican senator from Georgia. He was talking about a federal tax that would take the place of the income tax. He said that if they could do this, it would help a lot as it would eliminate a lot of the black market revunue that does not get taxed. He even said it would effectively eliminate the deficit.
Well, with such a detailed plan, I'm sure it would work. :roll:
 
[quote name='Drocket'][quote name='CaseyRyback']ah, but they do not want the US to be weak, that is the reason that they heavily invest into the US. They have so much tied up in bonds, that they are hating this weakening dollar. [/quote]
I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that they enjoy having power over us by causing us to become more and more dependent on them. And fact is that we ARE dependent on them, and becoming more dependent on them with every passing year. If they call in their bonds, the US will have little choice but to default on them, completely destroying our country's financial position in the world economy. The value of the dollar would plummet to virtually nill, our financial markets would be ruined, banks would go under (and forget the FDIC at that point.) Combine that with closing off our market for cheap imports at the same time, and we'd be royally shaq-fued.

And let me assure you, they know that. That IS the plan. The further the US goes into debt, the more power they have over us. Their climb to a world superpower is going to be over our corpse (figuratively speaking. I hope.)

The best idea I heard recently to help keep America in power, was from a republican senator from Georgia. He was talking about a federal tax that would take the place of the income tax. He said that if they could do this, it would help a lot as it would eliminate a lot of the black market revunue that does not get taxed. He even said it would effectively eliminate the deficit.
Well, with such a detailed plan, I'm sure it would work. :roll:[/quote]

I am not saying the plan was fully detailed, I just saw a clip on the news about it. It just sounded like a good idea, as it would eliminate a major headache for most people, in the tax season, and bring in more revunue for the government, by catching people who are not paying the government what they owe.

and I know we are becoming dependant on China, but they need a place to sell their goods, as they are not producing goods for domestic consumption. If they lose this, by destroying themselves economically, they end up slitting our throat, but they end up doing the same to themselves.
 
I don't know what this article writer has a beef with, but the 'stability' of the EU is really going to depend on whether or not they can get along with each other, which, considering their history past and present, doesn't look too prosperous, especially with a few choice nations poised to pull out of the chaos.

And why worry so much about China? Their investment in our treasury is dwarfed by Japan's which is more than triple. The UK is third in line. I don't see any of them pulling out soon, and If China does, many others would be perfectly willing to pony up an investment that's sure to pay off. An investment that's more secure than in the bonds of any other country. Granted, China dumping a boatload of US bonds on the world market won't have beneficial consequences along with a rising debt limit and runaway spending, but I trust that George and his patsies in Congress will see fit to realize the economy just isn't going to grow fast enough to outpace spending and have to tighten the belt sooner rather than later.

Fixing Social Security now rather than later would be a good idea too. A crisis in 30-50 years, as the democrats claim, is no excuse not to work on the problem now. 30 years from now we could be even more vunerable.
 
I am not saying the plan was fully detailed, I just saw a clip on the news about it. It just sounded like a good idea, as it would eliminate a major headache for most people, in the tax season, and bring in more revunue for the government, by catching people who are not paying the government what they owe.

Are you refering to the Bob Barr federal sales tax plan ? I think it's Barr.

The tax accountants and lawyers probably have a strong enough lobby to eliminate any chance of that succeeding. And a sales tax might just force a larger underground economy to avoid the tax altogether. just my 2 cents.
 
In the end, America knows how to make money effeciently and that is what's going to save our ass for the foreseeable future.

Europe has 35 hour work weeks, and most of them take a loooong lunch. The non-fluid nature of their job market won't help them either (it is much harder to fire someone there)
I was just hearing about how rebuilding in Indonesia after the Tsunami is going slowly because respect must be paid to the village elders and local despots before the people will help the US marines put their towns back together. Many of the Indians I know must travel back to India for a month or two for a ritual period if a relative dies. There's no way the average American takes a month off for a family tragedy/social customs.
Japan is extremely conformist and it's hard to push new ideas/innovation there (yet they are the masters at taking a good idea and refining it to perfection)
China is not even wholly out of third world status yet.

Yet I fully understand the anti-American sentiment. It will always be there because America is #1, yet the unmitigated arrogance of this administration combined with the ignorance of the slim majority of Americans that voted for the current Republican party is really a slap in the face to the rest of the world, and I have no doubt that the world will respond in kind. We may currently be the biggest kid in the classroom, but 51% of the US population needs a timeout so they can learn to play nice with others.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']And why worry so much about China? Their investment in our treasury is dwarfed by Japan's which is more than triple. The UK is third in line. I don't see any of them pulling out soon, and If China does, many others would be perfectly willing to pony up an investment that's sure to pay off.[/quote]
Japan has on several occasions expressed extreme concern about how much debt the US is in, and has greatly reduced the rate in which they invest in the US, as have quite a few other nations. That's the reason the dollar is so weak right now - most nations are losing faith that we'll ever be able to pay off our debt. Its not a good position to be in when most of the world is wondering if we're going to be defaulting on our loans.

Even if Japan/UK/EU/others step in and buy up our bonds if (or more realistically _when_) the crisis comes, it still works out to the same problem: the US is going to be dependent on other nations. Relying on other countries to prop up our economy doesn't exactly scream 'international superpower'.

but I trust that George and his patsies in Congress will see fit to realize the economy just isn't going to grow fast enough to outpace spending and have to tighten the belt sooner rather than later.
:rofl:

I think the more realistic hope would be that the next four years go by quickly, before the damage Dubya is doing becomes fatal.

Fixing Social Security now rather than later would be a good idea too. A crisis in 30-50 years, as the democrats claim, is no excuse not to work on the problem now. 30 years from now we could be even more vunerable.
30 years from, the problem is either going to be fixed or its going to be irrelevant. The clock is ticking, and Georgie-boy isn't paying attention.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']I don't know what this article writer has a beef with, but the 'stability' of the EU is really going to depend on whether or not they can get along with each other, which, considering their history past and present, doesn't look too prosperous, especially with a few choice nations poised to pull out of the chaos.

And why worry so much about China? Their investment in our treasury is dwarfed by Japan's which is more than triple. The UK is third in line. I don't see any of them pulling out soon, and If China does, many others would be perfectly willing to pony up an investment that's sure to pay off. An investment that's more secure than in the bonds of any other country. Granted, China dumping a boatload of US bonds on the world market won't have beneficial consequences along with a rising debt limit and runaway spending, but I trust that George and his patsies in Congress will see fit to realize the economy just isn't going to grow fast enough to outpace spending and have to tighten the belt sooner rather than later.

Fixing Social Security now rather than later would be a good idea too. A crisis in 30-50 years, as the democrats claim, is no excuse not to work on the problem now. 30 years from now we could be even more vunerable.[/quote]

Actually, fixing our budget deficit now is more important than SS. SS is a minor problem far off in the future. Medicade and medicare face more of a crisis and much sooner than SS.
 
It's a complete fallacy to ever assume or even insinuate that the EU will ever match or overcome the U.S.'s worldwide influential cache. The EU is made up of member states with bloated social programs, welfare and unsustainable state guaranteed pension plans.

The Netherlands awards 80% of a former workers salary for up to two years on unemployment. The limit on the upper end exceeds $100,000. Marginal tax rates in many EU countries eclipse 70%. Unemployment for the traditional NATO allies combined is floating around double digits. Their economic growth is no more than 3% annually. Immigration is unchecked in many of these countries and Islamic immigrants are making up an increasing percentage of the population. Do you think that constituancy is going to keep the EU on its current track?

Every EU proposal is largesse that depends on further taxing the aging, less prosperous and slowest growing populations on Earth. Russia is in a de-population trend, that continues throughout the West. Airbus? Government subsidized program. EU counter to GPS? Why? Where is the consumer demand? Where is the military necessity? Where are the demands from transportation driven sectors? Money pit.

Non-NATO rapid deployment force? Notice what a stellar job the EU did with Bosnia and Kosovo? That was an EU project that depended on us to bail their collective indecisive and unrealistic peace proposal out of a sling. What is this rapid deployment force going to do? By EU standards and their lack of willingness to ever act militarily on anything it's a heavily armed meals on wheels.

The EU is an idea that will end up on the scrap heap of history like the League of Nations. The Germans, French and English will never agree on a unified strategy to represent the continent on the world stage. Spheres of influence are too financially competitive between Paris, London and Berlin. Every one of these capitals want to be the true power sphere, not as a sum of a whole in Brussels.

Give the EU 10 years before it fades into obscurity. The welfare nature of its member states will make it impossible to ever truly unify.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']It's a complete fallacy to ever assume or even insinuate that the EU will ever match or overcome the U.S.'s worldwide influential cache. The EU is made up of member states with bloated social programs, welfare and unsustainable state guaranteed pension plans.

The Netherlands awards 80% of a former workers salary for up to two years on unemployment. The limit on the upper end exceeds $100,000. Marginal tax rates in many EU countries eclipse 70%. Unemployment for the traditional NATO allies combined is floating around double digits. Their economic growth is no more than 3% annually. Immigration is unchecked in many of these countries and Islamic immigrants are making up an increasing percentage of the population. Do you think that constituancy is going to keep the EU on its current track?

Every EU proposal is largesse that depends on further taxing the aging, less prosperous and slowest growing populations on Earth. Russia is in a de-population trend, that continues throughout the West. Airbus? Government subsidized program. EU counter to GPS? Why? Where is the consumer demand? Where is the military necessity? Where are the demands from transportation driven sectors? Money pit.

Non-NATO rapid deployment force? Notice what a stellar job the EU did with Bosnia and Kosovo? That was an EU project that depended on us to bail their collective indecisive and unrealistic peace proposal out of a sling. What is this rapid deployment force going to do? By EU standards and their lack of willingness to ever act militarily on anything it's a heavily armed meals on wheels.

The EU is an idea that will end up on the scrap heap of history like the League of Nations. The Germans, French and English will never agree on a unified strategy to represent the continent on the world stage. Spheres of influence are too financially competitive between Paris, London and Berlin. Every one of these capitals want to be the true power sphere, not as a sum of a whole in Brussels.

Give the EU 10 years before it fades into obscurity. The welfare nature of its member states will make it impossible to ever truly unify.[/quote]

The Spheres of influence thing is probably the biggest reason, along with what you mentioned (European countries not caring about Bosnia and Kosovo). A lot of these countries have hated each other for centuries, and to expect that hate to subside anytime soon, is being unrealistic.

35 years ago, France would not even let the UK join the EU, and now we expect them to join forces and form a bond stronger than pooling economic resourcecs together?

We were discussing this in Comp. Gov't the other day and my teacher thought it could happen, but I just kept shaking my head. The Euro has to become the adopted currency by all of the countries of the EU, to begin with, and that will not happen for many years

That said, the EU is not going anywhere. Been around for over 50 years, and there is too much collective good coming from it currently, for it to go away
 
Immigration is unchecked in many of these countries and Islamic immigrants are making up an increasing percentage of the population. Do you think that constituancy is going to keep the EU on its current track?

Every EU proposal is largesse that depends on further taxing the aging, less prosperous and slowest growing populations on Earth. Russia is in a de-population trend, that continues throughout the West.

I was going to explain why the first part was a benefit, and not a problem as you suggested. That was until I saw that your next few sentences refuted your earlier premise. First, immigration is controlled, though refugees are admitted on need, not quota. Immigration may cause some problems, but in the end immigration helps nations. Like europe and the u.s., japan, which has (if I remember correctly) the lowest birth rate in the world, is just starting to realize this. If a population has a low birth rate, the best, and only, way to remedy this is through immigration. Though, if I'm reading correctly (and the poster makes me think I am), the suggestion that having islamic immigrants can only harm a nation is at best xenophobic, and at worst racist.

Non-NATO rapid deployment force? Notice what a stellar job the EU did with Bosnia and Kosovo? That was an EU project that depended on us to bail their collective indecisive and unrealistic peace proposal out of a sling. What is this rapid deployment force going to do? By EU standards and their lack of willingness to ever act militarily on anything it's a heavily armed meals on wheels.

I'd like to know where the u.s. was in Rwanda and where it is in Sudan. Bush knows what is occuring in Sudan. His statements that one of the reasons for Iraq was the atrocities being committed, and his recognition that it is genocide (unlike most of europe), make his lack of action even more questionable than europes. Clinton knew what was occuring in rwanda, but refused to call it genocide, since he realized that if he did he would be forced to militarily intervene (a position bush, while governor at the time, was asked about and agreed with). Never again indeed. When you denounce nations for failing to act, you must also denounce your own when it fails to act. Also, in a slap in the face, no western nations sent any high ranking government official, let alone leaders, to the 10 year anniversary of the rwanda genocide.

Though on a side note, I wonder if you know that, while as guilty in allowing the genocide as much as any western nation, france was one of two nations (along with senegal), and the only western nation to send troops into rwanda when the un security council authorized intervention.

Though, as far as the eu is concerned, there are long standing rivalries between many nations. I'm not sure how the u.k. will fit into it in the end, but the eu, particularly mainland europe, is moving closer and closer together. Of course there are going to be arguments over where the central power will be, but the eu is working together more and more. Further unification is in progress, as shown by the creation of an eu constitution. The eu is on the path towards creating one large government, militarilly, and economically dependent but, for the most part. otherwise independent. Though I would be suprised, but not shocked, if europe eventually became one giant country, with each nation being much more powerful than our states, but subservient to the eu itself.
 
PAD focused completely on the EU and decided to ignore China and the up and coming Asian Tigers.

Just the idea of America circling the drain has a lot of us angry and up in arms. But people like PAD and many W supporters have decided to bury their heads in the sand and hope it doesnt happen.
 
[quote name='CaseyRyback']the Europeans do hate the Islamic immigrants, why else would a country like France ban headscarfs?[/quote]

It seems to depend on the country. While I support a system that has many political parties (unlike the 2 major ones in th u.s.), there are some problems. One is that more far right wing parties have power, giving racists more of a voice. Though this isn't the case with the headscarfs. Though countries like france and denmark (denmark in particular) seem to have growing anti-immigrant sentiments, while countries like sweden seem to be much more tolerant. You can say the same thing in the u.s. too, except it would be differences between states.
 
It's interesting that you, alonzomourning, equate the muslim religion with race. One would think that your hypersensitive altruistic nature would not allow you make this mistake when playing the race card on PAD.

There are many ethnicities that comprise the islamic faith throughout the middle east, asia and africa. Just look at Iran, there are turkamen, kurds, azairs, and others. They aren't all arabs. Next you'll be telling me you never heard of the ethiopian jews.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']It's interesting that you, alonzomourning, equate the muslim religion with race. One would think that your hypersensitive altruistic nature would not allow you make this mistake when playing the race card on PAD.

There are many ethnicities that comprise the islamic faith throughout the middle east, asia and africa. Just look at Iran, there are turkamen, kurds, azairs, and others. They aren't all arabs. Next you'll be telling me you never heard of the ethiopian jews.[/quote]
I do not think he means that, he is only trying to describe the second most powerful party in France
 
[quote name='bmulligan']It's interesting that you, alonzomourning, equate the muslim religion with race. One would think that your hypersensitive altruistic nature would not allow you make this mistake when playing the race card on PAD.

There are many ethnicities that comprise the islamic faith throughout the middle east, asia and africa. Just look at Iran, there are turkamen, kurds, azairs, and others. They aren't all arabs. Next you'll be telling me you never heard of the ethiopian jews.[/quote]

Talk about nitpicking. I don't pick up every word that is slightly missused in your posts while ignoring everything else you said. I use racist instead of bigot which, while technically different, are used interchangeably in everyday speech. Maybe you could have argued that he was not a bigot, since I have seen little evidence to suggest he isn't and plenty to suggest he is, maybe you could point some out to me.

edit: if you were talking about the post I made using casey's quote, I meant racist in that one. They have a problem with more than just muslims. And when I mentioned france I was thinking about Le Pen's national front party. Though I'm suprised, since you wanted to analyze my every word, why you didn't complain that I used headscarf instead of hijab.
 
I use racist instead of bigot which, while technically different, are used interchangeably in everyday speech.

I don't have a problem with every word, alonzo. But I do have a problem with interchanging "bigot" with "racist". They may be interchangable in your daily lexicon, but not in the rest of the world. You do a disservice to racial minorities and their struggles by so flippantly brandishing that word as a euphamism for anyone that disagrees with you. Words have meaning. Some words have specific meaning.

equating the muslim faith with a racial group is racist in and of itself. So, all nit picking aside, you're the kettle. This is a far cry from interchanging headscarf and hijab.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']
I use racist instead of bigot which, while technically different, are used interchangeably in everyday speech.

I don't have a problem with every word, alonzo. But I do have a problem with interchanging "bigot" with "racist". They may be interchangable in your daily lexicon, but not in the rest of the world. You do a disservice to racial minorities and their struggles by so flippantly brandishing that word as a euphamism for anyone that disagrees with you. Words have meaning. Some words have specific meaning.

equating the muslim faith with a racial group is racist in and of itself. So, all nit picking aside, you're the kettle. This is a far cry from interchanging headscarf and hijab.[/quote]

On accidental misuse of the word racist, referring to the idea that immigrant muslims cannot be productive in european society and will lead to its downfall, instead of bigot, and somehow I become a racist? I'm wondering if you were able to keep a straight face when your wrote that, or if you truly are delusional. PAD is a bigot, he may be a racist, I don't know, but I know he's a bigot.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'][quote name='bmulligan']
I use racist instead of bigot which, while technically different, are used interchangeably in everyday speech.

I don't have a problem with every word, alonzo. But I do have a problem with interchanging "bigot" with "racist". They may be interchangable in your daily lexicon, but not in the rest of the world. You do a disservice to racial minorities and their struggles by so flippantly brandishing that word as a euphamism for anyone that disagrees with you. Words have meaning. Some words have specific meaning.

equating the muslim faith with a racial group is racist in and of itself. So, all nit picking aside, you're the kettle. This is a far cry from interchanging headscarf and hijab.[/quote]

On accidental misuse of the word racist, referring to the idea that immigrant muslims cannot be productive in european society and will lead to its downfall, instead of bigot, and somehow I become a racist? I'm wondering if you were able to keep a straight face when your wrote that, or if you truly are delusional. PAD is a bigot, he may be a racist, I don't know, but I know he's a bigot.[/quote]

Fine, he's a bigot, and you're the racist. And yes, it's being typed with a completely straight face. Nice backtrack on the "accidental" use excuse. You said yourself you interchange the two words regularly and now all of the sudden it's an accident? Try again.

Certainly your humble nature would allow you to admit when you have made a mistake. Show us all how a good liberal can admit his mistakes and insensitivities, whereas right wing reactionaries can't. Take the high road and be the better man.
 
On accidental misuse of the word racist, referring to the idea that immigrant muslims cannot be productive in european society and will lead to its downfall, instead of bigot, and somehow I become a racist? I'm wondering if you were able to keep a straight face when your wrote that, or if you truly are delusional. PAD is a bigot, he may be a racist, I don't know, but I know he's a bigot.

Fine, he's a bigot, and you're the racist. And yes, it's being typed with a completely straight face. Nice backtrack on the "accidental" use excuse. You said yourself you interchange the two words regularly and now all of the sudden it's an accident? Try again.

Certainly your humble nature would allow you to admit when you have made a mistake. Show us all how a good liberal can admit his mistakes and insensitivities, whereas right wing reactionaries can't. Take the high road and be the better man.

Read my posts, I never said I regularly interchange the words, I said they are often used interchangeably in everyday speech.
I use racist instead of bigot which, while technically different, are used interchangeably in everyday speech.
To test this, go to google and type in racist muslims. Look at all the articles using the term racist in reference to those who hate muslims, quite often they use it the same way I did, and do not specify arab, black etc. I'm sure they're all racist too, correct? Also, using googles dictionary link, I found this definition among the 3 definitions of racist
discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion
. Notice, it said race or religion. This, along with the many articles, reinforces my statement that they are often used interchangeably. This is not to say that I regularly interchange them, or that the use of racist wasn't accidental in my case.

Again, I referred to the use of racist as a slight misuse and an accidental misuse. Read my posts more carefully, I did not backtrack and my first post is consistent with my second post. It was a slight, accidental misuse, offensive to no one but you. Though if you want to call me a racist fine, I'll tack this on to all the terms people have incorrectly called me, communist, anti-semite, conservative (suprisingly no ones ever called me a moderate), anti-religion, anti-religious people, anti-american, hippy and pro terrorist. Conservative is my proudest, but racist has to be up there as well.
 
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