How We All Got Stuck Paying the Medical Bills of the Woman Who Sued to Kill Obamacare

[quote name='mykevermin']So explain this post. You've yet to do so.[/quote]

I've already said, in so many words, you were right. I didn't mean everyone, as in the literal definition of every single person. So, again, congrats. You got me.

Also of interest, banks, oil companies, the 1%, etc... they all pay some taxes. So, I suppose, anything they get back from the Federal Government is okay - they're not free riding or anything (even if what they get back is worth far more than the amount they paid in).

Yes, because he is the decider.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, perhaps not.

But he does happen to be the first person listed on the "Our Leaders" page for a particular political party.

Hint: It's not the ones that start with "R".

http://www.democrats.org/about/our_leaders

:dunce:
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I've already said, in so many words, you were right. I didn't mean everyone, as in the literal definition of every single person.[/QUOTE]

So who did you mean, then?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']then would not everyone have the potential to be free riders?[/QUOTE]

The claim being made is that "free riders" are a major contribution to the problems in our health care system.

I just don't see it.

We're given all these anecdotal stories like this one, about people who leave doctors and hospitals with thousands or millions of dollars in debt and no plans or intentions of paying it off.

Yet this doesn't even begin to scrape the surface at the idea that these services shouldn't be costing millions of dollars.

Then, you get those who's big solution to health care issues is private insurance. Which has shown little ability to actually keep health care costs down.

Insurance does not provide health care. It doesn't cure you, fix you or make you feel better. It's simply another layer that does virtually nothing but add to the final cost. We need solutions that get the cost of health care down.

Instead, our leader gives us this gift to the insurance companies, with a big, red bow around it.

Free riders aren't the problem... but if you're going to pretend like they are, then making decisions that increase the pool of free riders doesn't seem like a good idea, does it?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']making decisions that increase the pool of free riders doesn't seem like a good idea, does it?[/QUOTE]

how in the sweet jesus bumblefuck is this happening due to PPACA?
 
PPACA sets us a government-ran insurance exchange (requires it on the state level or sets it up via the Federal level).
PPACA provides subsidies - for those who make as much as 400% of the Federal Poverty level - to pay for part or all of the government provided insurance.

Then, there was the "oversight" that makes it so that Social Security income doesn't count towards one's income when determining eligibility for these subsidies. It's estimated that an additional 3 million Americans will now qualify for these discounts that provide free/super-cheap coverage.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']It's estimated that an additional 3 million Americans will now qualify for these discounts that provide free/super-cheap coverage.[/QUOTE]

So, compare that to the current estimates of 47+ million who do not have insurance now. That sounds to me like a net reduction of 44 million free riders, sweetheart.
 
[quote name='Clak'] I should know, my doctor has had to write letters to my insurance company stating why I need medication A even though medication B is cheaper. [/QUOTE]

Yeah, I have that now. My ENT switched my acid reflux meds as the first one hadn't helped much. Tried to fill it yesterday, but have to wait because the insurance is requiring pre-authorization from the doctor now to justify it.
 
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Exactly, which is why complaining about government interference makes no sense. At the least we can look at how insurance companies already do so and say no, we don't want that kind of meddling in health care, period.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Then, you get those who's big solution to health care issues is private insurance. Which has shown little ability to actually keep health care costs down.

Insurance does not provide health care. It doesn't cure you, fix you or make you feel better. It's simply another layer that does virtually nothing but add to the final cost. We need solutions that get the cost of health care down.[/QUOTE]

Well, at least you get this part correct. It's a chicken/egg thing though. Did insurance cause actual health care costs to increase, or did the increase in costs create a situation where insurance became a viable means of reducing individual costs through pooled risk?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']
Get rid of the health "insurance" industry and socialize health care. Why screw around with middle men and red tape?[/QUOTE]

I support socializing healthcare, but it's not going to happen in the forseeable future.

Should we just leave the current system alone until the politicians support socialized medicine, which probably won't happen for decades, if ever? Or should we try to find realistic solutions that can be implemented in the short term to make sure that all Americans have access to health insurance?
 
Well, one problem is the Federal Government can't negotiate prices for prescription drugs because of the Bush Bill (I forget when but I want to say 05). Tossing that out the window with some completely meaningless law would help it pass under the radar like most things; you know, something health care lobbyists probably wouldn't see. That would help some kind of health care plan going forward, whether it be Obamacare or something else as a way to help control costs.

Insurance Companies should get some foresight soon though, because I doubt they realize employer's are about to drop insurance en mass, leaving them with fewer customers and money.
 
I think a major reason why the cost of healthcare is so expensive is because it's all for profit. It's easy to hand wave that away with spouting "free market", but the reality is everyone needs healthcare... otherwise you'll most likely end up dying much sooner than you would if you had it. How anyone can think we get the best most cost effective care when there are industries all trying to get a buck off your illness.

I never hear anyone explaining why we have a system in which an MRI can cost over a $1,000 instead of $100 or why it makes sense to enable Pharma to set their own prices. I think the first step would be to institute caps on the cost of treatment. But that wont happen because too many people are making ahnd over fist with the system we have now.
 
I think caps would be probably the best start for now. It'll help soften the blow to people w/o insurance, and be favorable to those with insurance.

To the 47 million without insurance...I wonder how many really can afford a decent (or basic plan) but they just "can't afford it".
I know of 9 people in my life (in my life meaning friends/relatives/co-workers) that do not have insurance. They all have a few things in common:

1. They DO all have jobs
2. They all have iPhones.
3. They all have the full cable package with one of the premium channels.
4.They frequent bars. Not every weekend, but def more than once a month.

Yes this is only 9 people, but I am positive theres a significant chunk of this 47 million people that are putting other priorities over there health. There's also a large chunk who just don't plain want it. Then there are people who truly can't afford it.

How about
-We leave the people alone who do not want health insurance
-We give no pity to people who put Showtime over their health
-Help the TRULY needy.

HC is not a one solution fixes all kind of issue. This is why it's been in the headlines for what seems forever.
 
[quote name='lilboo']I think caps would be probably the best start for now. It'll help soften the blow to people w/o insurance, and be favorable to those with insurance.

To the 47 million without insurance...I wonder how many really can afford a decent (or basic plan) but they just "can't afford it".
I know of 9 people in my life (in my life meaning friends/relatives/co-workers) that do not have insurance. They all have a few things in common:

1. They DO all have jobs
2. They all have iPhones.
3. They all have the full cable package with one of the premium channels.
4.They frequent bars. Not every weekend, but def more than once a month.

Yes this is only 9 people, but I am positive theres a significant chunk of this 47 million people that are putting other priorities over there health. There's also a large chunk who just don't plain want it. Then there are people who truly can't afford it.

How about
-We leave the people alone who do not want health insurance
-We give no pity to people who put Showtime over their health
-Help the TRULY needy.

HC is not a one solution fixes all kind of issue. This is why it's been in the headlines for what seems forever.[/QUOTE]

I think thats an incredibly weak argument though. Who cares whether someone has cable, goes to bars and has an iphone... i dont think eliminating those things would help afford healthcare. Not to mention that if you're working you should be able to have some luxuries and have some enjoyment. What kind of life is it to scrimp on every luxury so you can hand it all over to a gigantic industry making mountains of cash?

My own personal antidote is i have a wicked herniated disc in my neck and have pretty significant degenerative disc disease through my neck and spine and i'm only 30 years old. I pay out of pocket $200 a month for my insurance through my employer, along with that cost is a $5,000 deductible before coverage kicks in. Every Dr.'s visit and PT session costs me $50 out of pocket which doesnt go towards the deductible. I also need the occasional steroid injection into my disc which costs me $600 a piece which my insurance wont cover until i meet my deductible.

Would cutting cable tv, and iphone, and going out really make a dent in what i'm having to pay with insurance?
 
[quote name='lilboo']I think caps would be probably the best start for now. It'll help soften the blow to people w/o insurance, and be favorable to those with insurance.

To the 47 million without insurance...I wonder how many really can afford a decent (or basic plan) but they just "can't afford it".
I know of 9 people in my life (in my life meaning friends/relatives/co-workers) that do not have insurance. They all have a few things in common:

1. They DO all have jobs
2. They all have iPhones.
3. They all have the full cable package with one of the premium channels.
4.They frequent bars. Not every weekend, but def more than once a month.

Yes this is only 9 people, but I am positive theres a significant chunk of this 47 million people that are putting other priorities over there health. There's also a large chunk who just don't plain want it. Then there are people who truly can't afford it.

How about
-We leave the people alone who do not want health insurance
-We give no pity to people who put Showtime over their health
-Help the TRULY needy.

HC is not a one solution fixes all kind of issue. This is why it's been in the headlines for what seems forever.[/QUOTE]You don't get the point, whether through willful ignorance or just honest misunderstanding, it doesn't matter. The point though, is that having everyone in the risk pool is the only way to make this possible. Maybe some people could afford insurance if they cut back on other things, but it's irrelevant. They need to be in the risk pool with everyone else for a public system to work. As long as everyone is focused on "i know a guy who blah blah" this will never work.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Yes this is only 9 people, but I am positive theres a significant chunk of this 47 million people that are putting other priorities over there health. There's also a large chunk who just don't plain want it. Then there are people who truly can't afford it.[/QUOTE]
I'm unemployed and have a chronic medical condition that would likely be denied coverage as a pre-existing condition. So to me spending hundreds a month for health care coverage would be like throwing money away. Instead, I go to the local free clinic on a Thursday and receive the same advice I've heard for years now.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind']I think thats an incredibly weak argument though. Who cares whether someone has cable, goes to bars and has an iphone... i dont think eliminating those things would help afford healthcare. Not to mention that if you're working you should be able to have some luxuries and have some enjoyment. What kind of life is it to scrimp on every luxury so you can hand it all over to a gigantic industry making mountains of cash?

My own personal antidote is i have a wicked herniated disc in my neck and have pretty significant degenerative disc disease through my neck and spine and i'm only 30 years old. I pay out of pocket $200 a month for my insurance through my employer, along with that cost is a $5,000 deductible before coverage kicks in. Every Dr.'s visit and PT session costs me $50 out of pocket which doesnt go towards the deductible. I also need the occasional steroid injection into my disc which costs me $600 a piece which my insurance wont cover until i meet my deductible.

Would cutting cable tv, and iphone, and going out really make a dent in what i'm having to pay with insurance?[/QUOTE]

Yeah IMO these types of arguements are a distraction. I think some people have no fucking clue about how much health insurance costs, especially when they get it through their job

Here's a clue: if you're self-employed, cancelling your Iphone is not going to begin to cover your health insurance bill.

Also - sorry to hear that OTM.
 
[quote name='camoor']Here's a clue: if you're self-employed, cancelling your Iphone is not going to begin to cover your health insurance bill.[/QUOTE]

That's more like it.
 
[quote name='lilboo']I think caps would be probably the best start for now. It'll help soften the blow to people w/o insurance, and be favorable to those with insurance.[/QUOTE]
There are already soft caps when it comes to insurance reimbursments and many doctors, especially in private practices, are willing to negotiate prices if there is financial hardship.

To the 47 million without insurance...I wonder how many really can afford a decent (or basic plan) but they just "can't afford it".
I know of 9 people in my life (in my life meaning friends/relatives/co-workers) that do not have insurance. They all have a few things in common:
Click to expand...
How do you define a "decent" or "basic" plan? Be specific.

1. They DO all have jobs
2. They all have iPhones.
3. They all have the full cable package with one of the premium channels.
4.They frequent bars. Not every weekend, but def more than once a month.
Click to expand...
1. If they have jobs that offer insurance, are their wages appropriately adjusted? I highly doubt it and it doesn't make it any more affordable.
2. A fully loaded iphone plan with the phone costs roughly $2600 for the length of the 2 year contract. My health insurance plan with $10 meds, $25 office visits, and $50 ER with no deductible, with no lifetime limit costs about $130 PER WEEK.
3. Cable with premium channels still costs less than the iphone plan.
4. Going to the bar, paying for an iphone, and having cable still wouldn't add up to the actual cost of insurance.

Yes this is only 9 people, but I am positive theres a significant chunk of this 47 million people that are putting other priorities over there health. There's also a large chunk who just don't plain want it. Then there are people who truly can't afford it.

How about
-We leave the people alone who do not want health insurance
-We give no pity to people who put Showtime over their health
-Help the TRULY needy.
Click to expand...
What's the difference between the first two and what would be the qualifications for the last one? Sure, those things "sound" reasonable, but it's really just vague nonsense. If either one of those three trip on a rock and get a compound fracture, should we tell the first two to just eat shit and fend for themselves? Do I need to explain why this is stupid? Did you agree with the people that cheered Ron Paul for saying that someone should be allowed to die because someone chose not to have insurance?

HC is not a one solution fixes all kind of issue. This is why it's been in the headlines for what seems forever.
Click to expand...
AHAHAH...no. Not even close. Everyone needs health care. There's not even a question about affordability because we have the resources in place. It's about fuck you; got mine.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']So, compare that to the current estimates of 47+ million who do not have insurance now. That sounds to me like a net reduction of 44 million free riders, sweetheart.[/QUOTE]

Wowza.

Really?

You weren't very good at word problems in math class, eh? When I was young, they taught us to look for key words that would help identify what kind of actions to take. For example, when the word problem says something like "additional 3 million people", that means in addition to the already established pool of people.

The established pool of people consisting of households with an income of up to four times the federal poverty level.

Additionally, your numbers aren't right. 47 million uninsured doesn't equal 47 million "free riders". An uninsured person only become a "free rider" once they get medical bills beyond what they can afford. Those who do not seek health care or do so on a limited basis do not stick us all with their bills.

Aside from subsidies, PPACA is bringing major changes to medicaid, which *is* a virtual "free rider" service. It's estimated that an additional (key word there) 16 million Americans will now be eligible for medicaid under the new rules - where as these folks may have been paying *something* or may not have used the system at all, the PPACA is expanding them to 100% coverage.
 
::shrugs::
When we got our new HI plan over a year ago, it was really killing us. We got rid of some luxuries and overall cost of living and now we can have the HC plan (through my partner's job) and live well. We do not make a lot of money....especially for living in NJ. Yet, we learned to prioritize and live within our means..and to be honest our lives are pretty decent. Still get to put money in the savings account and enjoy things in life. Yet, our needs where the first thing we focused on. Insurance is a major need due to having severe asthma my entire life.

I go to the doctor twice a year, pay my copays.
I buy my monthly advair.

Because I decided to live within my means, I have money saved so IF I end up in the ER with a bad asthma attack (hasn't happened in quite some time ::knocks hard on wood:: ), I can pay my co-pay.

Maybe I was just raised well, and was raised to learn to take care of myself. Maybe I look at HI as a huge importance in my life and understand if I need the care (which I do) I have to make sacrifices elsewhere. I didn't ask for asthma, but I sure don't think it's right to expect other people to pay for my misfortune. These are the cards I've been dealt, but, hey other people have it bad too.

Though not exactly about insurance, I overhear nimrods at my job always complaining about money. These are people of course with iphones/cable (premium) packages. These are people who come in everyday with a breakfast sandwich and coffee from dunkin donuts..then they are the same people who go out and buy lunch everyday. Sorry, but if you're not making much money why on earth do you think you should spend every penny and then play the victim? There's a department of 8 of us. I know exactly what everyone makes -- and I make the least. Yet, I live better (financially) and I get a lot of grief and I'm accused of having parents come from money.. lol (which they don't.. good grief they do not)

^ wasn't much to add to the thread, but I just think it's interesting at how careless people are with money...and it seems like as a society we need to feel bad/coddle them kinds of people. Or the crazy way of just.. wanting to give them stuff. :shrugs:
 
[quote name='lilboo']::shrugs::
When we got our new HI plan over a year ago, it was really killing us. We got rid of some luxuries and overall cost of living and now we can have the HC plan (through my partner's job) and live well. We do not make a lot of money....especially for living in NJ. Yet, we learned to prioritize and live within our means..and to be honest our lives are pretty decent. Still get to put money in the savings account and enjoy things in life. Yet, our needs where the first thing we focused on. Insurance is a major need due to having severe asthma my entire life.

I go to the doctor twice a year, pay my copays.
I buy my monthly advair.

Because I decided to live within my means, I have money saved so IF I end up in the ER with a bad asthma attack (hasn't happened in quite some time ::knocks hard on wood:: ), I can pay my co-pay.

Maybe I was just raised well, and was raised to learn to take care of myself. Maybe I look at HI as a huge importance in my life and understand if I need the care (which I do) I have to make sacrifices elsewhere. I didn't ask for asthma, but I sure don't think it's right to expect other people to pay for my misfortune. These are the cards I've been dealt, but, hey other people have it bad too.

Though not exactly about insurance, I overhear nimrods at my job always complaining about money. These are people of course with iphones/cable (premium) packages. These are people who come in everyday with a breakfast sandwich and coffee from dunkin donuts..then they are the same people who go out and buy lunch everyday. Sorry, but if you're not making much money why on earth do you think you should spend every penny and then play the victim? There's a department of 8 of us. I know exactly what everyone makes -- and I make the least. Yet, I live better (financially) and I get a lot of grief and I'm accused of having parents come from money.. lol (which they don't.. good grief they do not)

^ wasn't much to add to the thread, but I just think it's interesting at how careless people are with money...and it seems like as a society we need to feel bad/coddle them kinds of people. Or the crazy way of just.. wanting to give them stuff. :shrugs:[/QUOTE]
Your ability to take care of yourself is dependant on others and not just your ability to bootstrap yourself into a health insurance pool that is mostlikely employer subsidized through a group policy that allows domestic partnerships. Not every state recognizes those relationships, so what do you say to those that live in those states? And why don't you get your own insurance? Bootstrapping indeed...:roll: It's more complicated that just "being responsible."

Tell me, have you ever heard of a concept called the social contract?
 
Um... when I was in between jobs...and his employer at the time didn't allow it.. yeah.. we paid for it then too. Because we had to.

Edit: That's false> his company DID allow it. However he couldn't add me in until it was time to re-sign up again..which was 10 months away at the time.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Well, one problem is the Federal Government can't negotiate prices for prescription drugs because of the Bush Bill (I forget when but I want to say 05). [/QUOTE]
If you are talking about Medicare Part D, that was one of the most irresponsible pieces of legislation ever passed. When you look at Neoconservatives and their fiscal conservatism claims, you can always throw the prescription drug bill back into their faces.
 
Health insurance rates vary widely based on the state you live in, age, gender, health history, and whether you're a smoker. In many states, health insurance is very affordable for healthy (no chronic illnesses or major illnesses in the past), non-smoking young adults, especially if the insured wants a high deductible plan. For these people, health insurance premiums could cost less than their iPhone.

On the other hand, for those who aren't healthy and young, rates can be very high (if they can get insurance at all). Dropping expensive cell plans and cable packages probably won't help these people all that much.

Lilboo - do you think the government should force the insurers to offer plans to anyone, regardless of their health status?
 
[quote name='lilboo']::shrugs::
When we got our new HI plan over a year ago, it was really killing us. We got rid of some luxuries and overall cost of living and now we can have the HC plan (through my partner's job) and live well.[/QUOTE]

Everyone can stop reading here.

If someone doesn't bother to read the responses, they aren't worth your time.

Liboo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmUi0qXdFCA
 
[quote name='chiwii']Health insurance rates vary widely based on the state you live in, age, gender, health history, and whether you're a smoker. In many states, health insurance is very affordable for healthy (no chronic illnesses or major illnesses in the past), non-smoking young adults, especially if the insured wants a high deductible plan. For these people, health insurance premiums could cost less than their iPhone.

On the other hand, for those who aren't healthy and young, rates can be very high (if they can get insurance at all). Dropping expensive cell plans and cable packages probably won't help these people all that much.

Lilboo - do you think the government should force the insurers to offer plans to anyone, regardless of their health status?[/QUOTE]

Force? Well, no. Perhaps work with at first. Problem is both sides are only out to make their side be "the right one" -- and a lot of fools fall for the "party" crap.

[quote name='camoor']Everyone can stop reading here.

If someone doesn't bother to read the responses, they aren't worth your time.

Liboo,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmUi0qXdFCA[/QUOTE]


So wait.. because we are insured from his job? Did you miss when I said I've had insurance before (purchased for myself in between jobs)? We work for a living.. I know that in this day and age working to take care of yourself is frowned upon, but call us old fashion people...? I guess..?
 
[quote name='lilboo']Force? Well, no. Perhaps work with at first. Problem is both sides are only out to make their side be "the right one" -- and a lot of fools fall for the "party" crap.[/QUOTE]
So stripping what little social safetynet we have left is the same as trying to expand it to help more people?

So wait.. because we are insured from his job? Did you miss when I said I've had insurance before (purchased for myself in between jobs)? We work for a living.. I know that in this day and age working to take care of yourself is frowned upon, but call us old fashion people...? I guess..?
Click to expand...
Before is not now and you're directly benefitting from someone else's labor which gives you access to a group policy discount that you would otherwise not have access to on your own. If your period of unemployment came closer to his open-enrollment period, then it would've been less than 10 months, which doesn't even matter that much when you tried to get on it to begin with, but were denied probably because you're gay when straight spouses and children aren't subject to enrollment periods. This is the exactly opposite of doing it on your own and so what if you bought insurance on your own. Do you think that everyone has the resources to do that? Do you think that you should be one medical emergency away from being financially ruined? Do you think that makes for an equitable or even stable society?

Again, in states that don't recognize domestic partnerships, what should those couples do? Pound sand and just deal with an inequitable system?

edit: Hell, even YOU were treated unfairly and now that you got yours, everyone else should get fucked?
 
[quote name='lilboo']Force? Well, no. Perhaps work with at first. Problem is both sides are only out to make their side be "the right one" -- and a lot of fools fall for the "party" crap.
[/QUOTE]


The government worked with the health insurance industry in writing PPACA. The end result of this collaboration was that, starting in 2014, the health insurance companies can't deny applicants based on pre-existing conditions. And, starting in 2014, all Americans will need to purchase health insurance.
 
[quote name='dohdough']So stripping what little social safetynet we have left is the same as trying to expand it to help more people?


Before is not now and you're directly benefitting from someone else's labor which gives you access to a group policy discount that you would otherwise not have access to on your own. If your period of unemployment came closer to his open-enrollment period, then it would've been less than 10 months, which doesn't even matter that much when you tried to get on it to begin with, but were denied probably because you're gay when straight spouses and children aren't subject to enrollment periods. This is the exactly opposite of doing it on your own and so what if you bought insurance on your own. Do you think that everyone has the resources to do that? Do you think that you should be one medical emergency away from being financially ruined? Do you think that makes for an equitable or even stable society?

Again, in states that don't recognize domestic partnerships, what should those couples do? Pound sand and just deal with an inequitable system?

edit: Hell, even YOU were treated unfairly and now that you got yours, everyone else should get fucked?[/QUOTE]

Well, because we live in NJ if we had a civil union (NJ allows them) then perhaps we could have gotten on it sooner. We didn't have one then (or now) so I really can't say if I was able to get on it at the time.

So, what else should I have done? Moaned and cried social injustice.. or.. get myself insurance until I can get on his? I chose option 2. Also, it seems (sorry if I am incorrect) that you may be more of a democrat/liberal, and you guys really need to stop telling all minority groups (like myself) that we have been screwed and everyone else is being unfair to us. I never thought any of that was unfair. I just decided "I better get myself insurance so I don't have to pay $300 a month for Advair"

Believe me, I am not for the system. I just think the mentality that our health is something other people should cover is a bit absurd. No, we shouldn't be financially ruined because we had a heart attack. No, we shouldn't say "I can't afford to go get this sore throat checked out". Etc. Etc. Etc.

On one hand I kinda like that eventually insurance companies can't deny people...but yet, because everyone will have insurance, why are our premiums going up? Once again, why are the people who choose to do the right thing and learn the value of a dollar conned into paying more for the people who view HBO, Apps, jeans, bars, etc over their own personal needs.

Oh, and no. Not because "I have mine, screw you".. but what am I supposed to do? Pay more for my insurance just so others can get it? Again, sorry that my partner and I work for a living, and sorry that we save money, and sorry that we take care of ourselves. For a couple living in NJ who combined make less than $50k a year pre-tax we do fairly well because we live within our means.

We have a new car we will be making payments on for the next 3 years. Obviously that car is insured. Our rent is somewhat high ($975). We have cell phones. We have internet. We both have WoW accounts. It costs me $120 a month to travel to and from work on the train. He drives to work and gas prices have been absurd.. so it's always different on how much he spends per month. Roughly $100.

Despite this, we still can afford payroll deductions for our health insurance. We still can afford to drop money in the savings account. We also both have payroll deductions going into our 401k. We can still afford to eat out and "live a little". We are even planning a vacation for a week in July.

And again, we do NOT make a lot of money considering we live in tax happy NJ.

But, that doesn't matter. Because we took the time to evaluate our lives and make them affordable, other people shouldn't have to. Other people should bring home $400 a week and spend $600 a week -- on mostly stuff they WANT -- and let's feel bad for those people and call them victims.

So.. how about we start enforcing people to man up and take responsibility for themselves before we just feed into the tears of the world. Yes yes there are some true sad stories and I'll never deny it. It's just funny how it seems like "everyone" is a special case.
 
[quote name='lilboo']So, what else should I have done? Moaned and cried social injustice.. or.. get myself insurance until I can get on his? I chose option 2. Also, it seems (sorry if I am incorrect) that you may be more of a democrat/liberal, and you guys really need to stop telling all minority groups (like myself) that we have been screwed and everyone else is being unfair to us. I never thought any of that was unfair. I just decided "I better get myself insurance so I don't have to pay $300 a month for Advair"[/QUOTE]

There is no honor in agreeing to bear the brunt of social injustice when you have the means to change it.


[quote name='lilboo']Believe me, I am not for the system. I just think the mentality that our health is something other people should cover is a bit absurd. No, we shouldn't be financially ruined because we had a heart attack. No, we shouldn't say "I can't afford to go get this sore throat checked out". Etc. Etc. Etc. [/QUOTE]

This paragraph makes no sense. None of the sentences go together.

Honest hardworking people lose their jobs every day, and most people have had a period where they were searching for a job. If we don't help to cover their insurance while they are jobless, then of course they will be financially ruined if they get a catastrophic health problem.

DD I agree with you - this guy has a little taste of the good life and now he thinks everyone else should go get fucked.
 
My mom lost her job Jan 2nd (how nice to come back from Christmas break like tgat after 16 years..). Yes she's collecting unemployment, but that's not forever obviously. Also, they have built a savings over the years. Oh, and my dad + brother were on HER insurance at work. She lost it and they are doing the overpriced cobra plan until they can switch over to my Dad's. I don't know the full story as I don't live with my parents and am not around to hear everyday details.

My parent's also do not make a lot of money.

I also love how I have a taste of the good life. LOL, what does that even mean? We have 2 pre-paid cell plans that we pay $25 a month. We got rid of cable entirely. We order pizza like every other week and go out to eat like once a month. Then we save. Believe me I'm not saving a lot, but I'd be a fool to not save what I can.

How is this, "the good life"? LOL? ???
Other people are living "the good life" because they don't know how to manage their money.

I make $11.50 an hour and my partner makes $10 an hour. LOLOL yeah we are living "the good life" alright. It's called MAKING DUE WITH WHAT WE HAVE.

I guess I just wasn't raised spoiled. :shrug:
 
It's just indicative of the US and why lots of things about this country suck donkey balls.

The rampant capitalist domination of the country has just lead to an "everyone for themselves," and "fuck y'all, got mine" attitude where people just don't give a shit about others or the common good. They work hard for what they got and don't give a shit what happens to others as they think they just need to work as hard as they do and they can get at least the same results.

And I'll concede that's partly true. Everyone who's able has an obligation to work hard and do everything they can to try to be self sufficient. But that doesn't mean that those of us who are fortunate enough to get by on our own, and especially those of us who do well for ourselves and can afford luxuries etc., should be all "fuck y'all, got mine" and not willing to pay insurance premiums, taxes, etc. to help those less fortunate than ourselves. The playing field is not level. Plenty of people work hard (or want to be can't find work with benefits etc.) and don't succeed for reasons that were/are out of their control.

As F. Scott Fitzgerald put it in the opening of The Great Gatsby: "Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

And that doesn't just apply to people born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Any of us born in stable, middle class families have had huge advantages through out our lives compared to anyone born into poverty, broken homes, abusive/neglectful families etc. Not to mention issues of race, location, illness, intelligence etc. that are out of one's control.
 
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[quote name='lilboo']My mom lost her job Jan 2nd (how nice to come back from Christmas break like tgat after 16 years..). Yes she's collecting unemployment, but that's not forever obviously. Also, they have built a savings over the years. Oh, and my dad + brother were on HER insurance at work. She lost it and they are doing the overpriced cobra plan until they can switch over to my Dad's. I don't know the full story as I don't live with my parents and am not around to hear everyday details.

My parent's also do not make a lot of money.

I also love how I have a taste of the good life. LOL, what does that even mean? We have 2 pre-paid cell plans that we pay $25 a month. We got rid of cable entirely. We order pizza like every other week and go out to eat like once a month. Then we save. Believe me I'm not saving a lot, but I'd be a fool to not save what I can.

How is this, "the good life"? LOL? ???
Other people are living "the good life" because they don't know how to manage their money.

I make $11.50 an hour and my partner makes $10 an hour. LOLOL yeah we are living "the good life" alright. It's called MAKING DUE WITH WHAT WE HAVE.

I guess I just wasn't raised spoiled. :shrug:[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to get dragged into this anecdotal bullshit from the spoiled prat playing working class hero. (Giving up eating out every night is not a hardship. Giving up cable TV is not a hardship. None of us care, so just can it)

Sounds like you and your family have enough money to pay for health insurance. Great. I'm talking about folks that don't.
 
Great. We're going to solve a national problem by focusing the problems of a blundering south jersey club kid and those within one degree of him.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It's just indicative of the US and why lots of things about this country suck donkey balls.

The rampant capitalist domination of the country has just lead to an "everyone for themselves," and "fuck y'all, got mine" attitude where people just don't give a shit about others or the common good. They work hard for what they got and don't give a shit what happens to others as they think they just need to work as hard as they do and they can get at least the same results.

And I'll concede that's partly true. Everyone who's able has an obligation to work hard and do everything they can to try to be self sufficient. But that doesn't mean that those of us who are fortunate enough to get buy on our owns, and especially those of us who do well for ourselves and can afford luxuries etc., should be all "fuck y'all, got mine" and not willing to pay insurance premiums, taxes, etc. to help those less fortunate than ourselves. The playing field is not level. Plenty of people work hard (or want to be can't find work with benefits etc.) and don't succeed for reasons that were/are out of their control.

As F. Scott Fitzgerald put it in the opening of The Great Gatsby: "Whenever you feel like criticizing anyone," he told me, "just remember that all the people in this world haven't had the advantages that you've had."

And that doesn't just apply to people born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Any of us born in stable, middle class families have had huge advantages through out our lives compared to anyone born into poverty, broken homes, abusive/neglectful families etc. Not to mention issues of race, location, illness, intelligence etc.[/QUOTE]
It's funny, I know so many people, all at least college educated, who cannot find work (or better work) that would include benefits like insurance. They aren't the lazy slobs that boo here probably thinks they are, they want to work hard and do well. Unfortunately the world doesn't work like some fairy tale world where the will to work hard and do well for yourself is all you need. Sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you work, life still screws you over. If we can take the worry of health care out of that equation and make sure that at the very least, that's one thing no one has to worry about in this country, why shouldn't we? Because some ignorant dumbass perceives that some people aren't working as hard as they should? Nesflash, lazy people exist, but that doesn't mean we should let that minority stop everyone else from benefiting from better access to health care.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Great. We're going to solve a national problem by focusing the problems of a blundering south jersey club kid and those within one degree of him.[/QUOTE]

This was not going to be an informative thread after the usual suspects got going. Free Rider is a comparatively commpn concept with an agreed upon definition. It went from defining that to defining the very concept of insurance.
 
[quote name='Clak']If we can take the worry of health care out of that equation and make sure that at the very least, that's one thing no one has to worry about in this country, why shouldn't we? Because some ignorant dumbass perceives that some people aren't working as hard as they should?[/QUOTE]

Well said, I completely agree.
 
[quote name='lilboo']

Believe me, I am not for the system. I just think the mentality that our health is something other people should cover is a bit absurd. No, we shouldn't be financially ruined because we had a heart attack. No, we shouldn't say "I can't afford to go get this sore throat checked out". Etc. Etc. Etc.

On one hand I kinda like that eventually insurance companies can't deny people...but yet, because everyone will have insurance, why are our premiums going up? Once again, why are the people who choose to do the right thing and learn the value of a dollar conned into paying more for the people who view HBO, Apps, jeans, bars, etc over their own personal needs.

Oh, and no. Not because "I have mine, screw you".. but what am I supposed to do? Pay more for my insurance just so others can get it? Again, sorry that my partner and I work for a living, and sorry that we save money, and sorry that we take care of ourselves. For a couple living in NJ who combined make less than $50k a year pre-tax we do fairly well because we live within our means.

We have a new car we will be making payments on for the next 3 years. Obviously that car is insured. Our rent is somewhat high ($975). We have cell phones. We have internet. We both have WoW accounts. It costs me $120 a month to travel to and from work on the train. He drives to work and gas prices have been absurd.. so it's always different on how much he spends per month. Roughly $100.

Despite this, we still can afford payroll deductions for our health insurance. We still can afford to drop money in the savings account. We also both have payroll deductions going into our 401k. We can still afford to eat out and "live a little". We are even planning a vacation for a week in July.

And again, we do NOT make a lot of money considering we live in tax happy NJ.

But, that doesn't matter. Because we took the time to evaluate our lives and make them affordable, other people shouldn't have to. Other people should bring home $400 a week and spend $600 a week -- on mostly stuff they WANT -- and let's feel bad for those people and call them victims.

So.. how about we start enforcing people to man up and take responsibility for themselves before we just feed into the tears of the world. Yes yes there are some true sad stories and I'll never deny it. It's just funny how it seems like "everyone" is a special case.[/QUOTE]

So, do you support the individual mandate?
 
[quote name='chiwii']So, do you support the individual mandate?[/QUOTE]

For what it means -- yes I do. But then the realist in me comes and says "at what cost". How much more do our premiums have to go up so everyone can have something? Why am I villianized (not from you, actually) because I think it's absurd I have to pay more and more just so others can have what I have -- that I earn and work for?

If there's a way to say "hey, yo, everyone needs insurance" AND we can keep all of our costs down, then I am all for that.

Thank YOU for actually not being like the others who just need to feed on each other's agreements with each other .. and have to insult others who disagree with them.
 
[quote name='lilboo']For what it means -- yes I do. But then the realist in me comes and says "at what cost". How much more do our premiums have to go up so everyone can have something? Why am I villianized (not from you, actually) because I think it's absurd I have to pay more and more just so others can have what I have -- that I earn and work for?[/QUOTE]
You're absolutely right. Why the hell should my rates go up as a healthy 30 year old male with absolutely no pre-existing conditions because some asthmatic that chooses to engage in a lifestyle with higher incidences of STD's wants cheaper insurance?

/sarcasm

Do we really need to define what insurance is for you?

If there's a way to say "hey, yo, everyone needs insurance" AND we can keep all of our costs down, then I am all for that.
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The way you're defining "costs," there's no such thing as your solution. Or maybe you should define what you mean by "costs" instead of being so vague.

Thank YOU for actually not being like the others who just need to feed on each other's agreements with each other .. and have to insult others who disagree with them.
Click to expand...
I think the term you're looking for is circle-jerk. Oh, and less insults tend to fly when people stop being obtuse.
 
[quote name='lilboo']For what it means -- yes I do. But then the realist in me comes and says "at what cost". How much more do our premiums have to go up so everyone can have something? Why am I villianized (not from you, actually) because I think it's absurd I have to pay more and more just so others can have what I have -- that I earn and work for?

If there's a way to say "hey, yo, everyone needs insurance" AND we can keep all of our costs down, then I am all for that.

Thank YOU for actually not being like the others who just need to feed on each other's agreements with each other .. and have to insult others who disagree with them.[/QUOTE]

How about because it's the right thing to do?

Also I don't see how you're earning or working for anything. You're sponging off your partner.

Funny how the people who do the least complain the most.
 
He just seems blissfully ignorant, of many things. And that isn't an insult, it's an observation. "What's the big deal?" is the question I sense boo asking about this.
 
Lawyers Opposing Health Care Law Cite Kids-With-Pre-Existing-Conditions-Can-Go-fuck-Themselves Clause

WASHINGTON—As the Supreme Court hears oral arguments today on President Obama's health care reform law, plaintiffs aiming to strike down the legislation are citing the U.S. Constitution's Kids-With-Pre-Existing-Conditions-Can-Go-fuck-Themselves clause, which decrees that children who suffer from debilitating illnesses prior to acquiring health insurance "should just go straight to hell." "It explicitly states in Article 4, Section 9 that 'children with extant disorders unable to pay exorbitant premium fees can just fucking die for all we care, especially the ones with leukemia.'" attorney Paul D. Clement told the nine jurists during his opening statement. "Thus the current law is on its face unconstitutional. The Founding Fathers clearly wanted to force doctors to turn away youth with acute asthma so the nation's children would turn blue in the face, go into cardiac arrest, and die in their own homes." Legal experts noted that if this argument fails, plaintiffs would undoubtedly cite the 24th Amendment's If-You-Don't-Have-Health-Insurance-Already-You-Must-Be-A-Poor-fuck-Who-Doesn't-Deserve-It-Anyway provision.
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/lawyers-opposing-health-care-law-cite-kidswithpree,27761/
 
[quote name='camoor']http://www.theonion.com/articles/lawyers-opposing-health-care-law-cite-kidswithpree,27761/[/QUOTE]
I liked this one as well

http://www.theonion.com/articles/women-voters-cant-help-fawning-over-sexist-gop,27748/

"They openly insult me, undermine my intelligence, and act as if I lack the basic responsibility to take care of myself, but every time I hear them talking about why I shouldn't be able to choose what I do with my own body, I get a little turned on," registered voter Jennifer Wilson said. "My friends keep telling me I'll get burned like I always do when I elect guys who think their authority extends to my uterus, but there's just something unbelievably sexy about politicians who see something they want and then go out and take it."
Click to expand...
 
I have no problem with having some of my taxes go help others, but it becomes farking BULLSHIT when these same people who are helped by my tax monies turn around and act like ungrateful MFer's..

You going ask for my money but not willing to pass it on? We should just have let this woman die a long painful death and laugh at her when she begs for help.. These people are useless to our species
 
If someone thinks the system isn't broken, I don't want to know how they formulate opinions.

Currently we have doctors milking a faceless machine because otherwise they don't get paid. You have a middle-man institution in health insurance that operates more like a lottery than an emergency backup. You have people that either go beyond bankrupt or end up with serious illnesses because they apparently aren't entitled to the benefits of a first world. Then, you have the people on the other end of the spectrum that milk healthcare for all its worth by getting on various government funded programs, even though they are capable of obtaining work that includes health insurance or even worse, decline health insurance from their job.

Capitalism works reasonably well in the realm of goods and consumption. It is awful when it comes to healthcare.
 
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