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evanft

evanft

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February 02, 2006

Making Gay Teens Safe is 'Intolerant' Towards Christians
A few days ago I wrote about how some teachers in San Leandro High School in California got upset when they were told to put up posters which declared that the classes were safe places for gay and lesbian students. Christian conservatives have expressed outrage that gays should be told that they are safe; now, one leader is explicitly stating that safety for gays is intolerant towards Christians.

Agape Press reports:

“What [such policies] produce is intolerance toward anyone who won’t accept homosexuality,” [Bob Knight of the Culture and Family Institute (CFI)] says, adding that in this case, that means “teachers who know that it’s not a good thing to sell kids on the idea that it’s okay to be gay.” ...

“This is about bullying people and saying you will kneel down and bow to the Baal god of homosexuality -- or we’ll make your life very miserable,” he says. ... The CFI spokesman maintains the school district is demonstrating intolerance toward the five teachers who are choosing not to display the posters -- and those teachers, he adds, are courageous for standing up to the mandate.
So, according to an important Christian Right organization, teachers are courageous when they refuse to make it clear to everyone that gay students should feel safe. Why, though? Are teachers harassed and bullied by bigger teachers for being Christian? Do Christian teachers have their books taken and thrown in the trash? Do Christian teachers fear that they might be beaten up by other teachers after school?

Of course not, that’s ridiculous. The Christian Right complains about persecution, but they don’t experience anything like what conservative Christians do to and encourage be done to minority groups like gays. It’s morally outrageous that they would adopt the mantle of “victim” in situation where they are the primary victimizers and where they are seeking the ability to continue to victimize others without negative consequences or sanctions.

It’s not “intolerant” towards Christians to make gay teens safe. What it is really is, though, is a way to communicate the idea that homosexuality is not something that one should be ashamed about or something that should cause them to become afraid of others. This is what the Christian Right gets upset about because they want everyone to believe that homosexuality is evil, but culture and government are not supporting their efforts. There is too much competition for their views on homosexuality and their views are losing — badly.
Click to expand...

:applause:x100000000
 
Another trite "your intolerance is not tolerant of my intolerance, so you're the one who's being intolerant!" argument, eh?

Homeskool the fucking brats then.
 
Its fucking high school. The damn signs should say "Its ok to leave your sexual preferences at home because no one really gives a fuck if you like to smoke pole."

Why do gays get a pat on the back for being gay? I'm not saying its right or wrong to be gay, but I believe it is wrong to be commended for being gay. I love women. Do I need a poster in a class room to say "Its okay to be not gay!"? That would actually be taken as offensive to gays.

How about a new take on those rediculous shirts? "Lets get one thing strait; I AM!" That'd probably be insensitive to gays as well.

Gays make a big stink whenever someone uses the term 'normal' to define hetrosexuality. Saying they feel victimized by people implying homosexuality isn't normal. If its so normal, why do they need posters, shirts, bumperstickers and other paraphanalia reassuring them about their lifestyle?

I'm not a biggot hating what he doesn't understand. If you want to fuck guys, fuck guys. If you want to fuck balloons, go ahead. Cantelope? Whatever. I'm just sick of people bitching about being 'oppressed' when their choices aren't front and center being declared the best thing ever.

Wanna be gay? Great, just stop shoving it in everyone's face and expecting to be revered. You have the right to be gay. The 250lb redneck QB has the right to not like you for it.
 
Problem: There isn't a massive amount of intolerance directed at straight people. It's not that it isn't normal to be gay, it's just that certain people think it isn't, and also believe that gay people are inferior to straight people.

Also, anyone who doesn't like somebody simply because they're gay would be the walking defintion of a bigot.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Its fucking high school. The damn signs should say "Its ok to leave your sexual preferences at home because no one really gives a fuck if you like to smoke pole."

Why do gays get a pat on the back for being gay? I'm not saying its right or wrong to be gay, but I believe it is wrong to be commended for being gay. I love women. Do I need a poster in a class room to say "Its okay to be not gay!"? That would actually be taken as offensive to gays.

How about a new take on those rediculous shirts? "Lets get one thing strait; I AM!" That'd probably be insensitive to gays as well.

Gays make a big stink whenever someone uses the term 'normal' to define hetrosexuality. Saying they feel victimized by people implying homosexuality isn't normal. If its so normal, why do they need posters, shirts, bumperstickers and other paraphanalia reassuring them about their lifestyle?

I'm not a biggot hating what he doesn't understand. If you want to fuck guys, fuck guys. If you want to fuck balloons, go ahead. Cantelope? Whatever. I'm just sick of people bitching about being 'oppressed' when their choices aren't front and center being declared the best thing ever.

Wanna be gay? Great, just stop shoving it in everyone's face and expecting to be revered. You have the right to be gay. The 250lb redneck QB has the right to not like you for it.[/QUOTE]

How often do you find examples of kids being bullied or beat up for being heterosexual?

And I don't know about your high school, but kids don't exactly leave their sexual preferences and interests at home.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']One word answer to your question, Kayden: heteronormativity.[/QUOTE]

i thought this would help out a few CAG's (including myself :lol: ):

Heteronormativity is a term used in the discussion of sexual behavior, gender, and society, primarily within the field of gender theory. It is used to describe (and frequently to criticize) the manner in which many social institutions and social policies are seen to reinforce certain beliefs. (wikipedia)
 
These two replies are more or less the same. You can tell by the simple fact that homosexual couples can't reproduce makes them abnormal/not natural. Simple fact of nature: male + female = babies.

Do I think gays are normal? No. Are they inferior? No.

I don't have a problem if two guys want to swordfight behind closed doors. Fine and dandy, don't forget the ky as chaffing can be a bitch. However, I highly dislike the attitude that people are biggots for not patting every gay on the back and saying 'congrats!'

If they want equal treatment they should stop demanding special treatment. If you want to be allowed to wear your 'Go homos!' shirts then you can bitch and moan about people wearing 'I'm not gay' shirts and how "oppressive" they are. It's a lot like those Ts girls used to wear saying "Boys are great, every girl should own one." If a girl wears that shirt its cute and liberating, conversely, if a man were to wear a simularly themed shirt about owning women, he'd be an insensitive, sexist ass.

[quote name='evanft']Problem: There isn't a massive amount of intolerance directed at straight people. It's not that it isn't normal to be gay, it's just that certain people think it isn't, and also believe that gay people are inferior to straight people.

Also, anyone who doesn't like somebody simply because they're gay would be the walking defintion of a bigot.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='mykevermin']One word answer to your question, Kayden: heteronormativity.[/QUOTE]
 
So, to you, special treatment is merely the privelege to not feel that you need to hide your sexuality for fear of getting made fun of, or having the shit kicked out of you?

Seeing as how nobody cowers in psychological terror, fearful that someone might discover that they're straight, I'd consider this to be equal rights.

If we can permit religious or otherwise sexually bigoted people speak their mind in school, then let's make sure that we should make certain we allow christian identity children to make remarks about how nonwhites are soulless "mud people" not even destined for hell as a result of their inferiority (you can't really go to hell if you have no soul, right?)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
 
[quote name='evanft']Problem: There isn't a massive amount of intolerance directed at straight people. It's not that it isn't normal to be gay, it's just that certain people think it isn't, and also believe that gay people are inferior to straight people.

Also, anyone who doesn't like somebody simply because they're gay would be the walking defintion of a bigot.[/QUOTE]

I dont normally comment. But I am having a bad day and this crap is just that.

Be gay, be straight, be racist, be white, black, yellow, purple whatever. Shit be the antichrist for that matter... or wait he doesnt exist so maybe I should say be american.

Obviously there is some intolerence towards straight people or they wouldnt be forced by these "groups" to go against their beliefs. If you dont like that they dont want to hang the sign so what. Go do it yoruself.

Kaydens exactly right. If "this classroom is safe for straights" was posted it would be a big ass problem. Or if I called my local "Hip Hop/Urban" station and proclaimed that its not fair they always talk about "black rights" and slam White/Caucasions/etc on a daily basis. It would pose a problem and would never get aired. Or how about I make a hand gesture for "White Power" like you see on MTV by a lot of the artists. Or at the 5 million man march. Oh thats right we killed Hitler already.


Or what about the local authorities that have to give artificailly inflated "bonus points" to potential "minority" police hirees to balance it for everyone. What about the white guy who got screwed in that deal who has 6 children to feed thats also on welfare?

Whats next teachers that dont like and support gays get fired? I mean what the hell is happening to this country. Its so "free" that half of everybodies freedoms are being taken away.

If your a straight christian you are the devil in half the peoples eyes. And you sure as shit better not as much as smile the wrong way or you will prosecuted, labeled and put into print how wrong you are... And who thinks they are better than everyone else again? Both sides are quilty of this. Or better yet everybody is guilty of it in some way. As I am sure there are more than just two sides if not now there will be.

I mean you cant even say Super Bowl on the air or in your advertisements without approval from the NFL. So now its the "Big Game" or Super Game, Party etc...

GM is out there testing their little black boxes in Canada that FORCE your car to not exceed the posted speed limit by GPS tracking. Why dont they just put a petition up to remove roadways and reinstall railways as our standard method of transportation. I mean in 96 when speed limits increased nationally we all know that it reduced accidents but that doesnt matter.


You want to know the ones I think are getting screwed? The Indians. We stole this country from them, labelled it ours, invited everyone around the world into it and desgnated certain small chunks of land to them and thats that. I dont hear them bitching and if anybody has the right its theirs.


Some of this stuff I read makes me sick. Its not the topic its the point that in the last 10 years everyone has a problem with the "other half" and its just getting worse. Meanwhile world views of our country have sunk so low its not even funny.
 
Exactly my point. I'm not saying its right that they get the piss beat out of them, but they should exercise discretion. You don't drive through Harlem saying "Haha niggers, I have a million dollars!" ( :whistle2:# OMG THATS RACIST!)

If you flaunt anything enough you're bound to attract negative attention. Shirts that convey the message 'hah, I'm gay and you have to listen to me talk about how great I am because of it or else you're a bad person' really don't help things. Its like slapping a pitbull with flank steak. You're going to piss someone off. Leave the "Yay I'm gay" mentality at home.

I'm not saying you have to hide who you are, but think before you run down the halls limpwristedly in a pink leotard shouting gay pride.

I'd find a shirt saying "I love to cum in women's vaginas" offensive and I do enjoy the activity myself, however, that doesn't mean I need to bombard everyone with that fact. "Lets get one thing strait; I am", even though 'hetronormative', is still totally innapropriet for school or work.

I'm not debating the moral implications of homosexuality nor am I condoning acts of violence against gays. I'm saying that I don't think people should make a big deal about their sexual orientation or skin color or ethinic heritage. The world on the whole doesn't give a fuck. Those that do probably want to hate you for it. Thats life.



[quote name='alonzomourning23']How often do you find examples of kids being bullied or beat up for being heterosexual?

And I don't know about your high school, but kids don't exactly leave their sexual preferences and interests at home.[/QUOTE]
 
So, to you guys, it's the fault of the gay person in question because they let people know they're gay? That's bullshit, plain and simple.
 
[quote name='Kayden']I'm saying that I don't think people should make a big deal about their sexual orientation or skin color or ethinic heritage. The world on the whole doesn't give a fuck. Those that do probably want to hate you for it. Thats life.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. So you want to deny the existence of history for some sort of foolish "let's all get together as "Americans" instead of this or that" mentality? Where has a society ever existed devoid of racial/ethnic, gender, or sexuality stratification? To think that society can, at any point, ignore differences that are socially (and to a lesser extent biologically) created is absurd and contrary to anything you've ever known.

You can't ignore the problem away - in the case of racism (rather than sexual orientation), Eduardo Bonilla-Silva has an excellent book called "Racism Without Racists." I know you'll not read it, but it's the kind of book that puts that dunderheaded "ignore the problem away" mentality to rest pretty damn well.
 
Obviously there is some intolerence towards straight people or they wouldnt be forced by these "groups" to go against their beliefs.
Click to expand...

So straight people have a belief telling them to beat homosexuals? I don't see what other belief they are being forced to go against. "This class is safe for gay and lesbian students", what's offensive there other than it's telling people they can't beat up, harrass or endanger gay and lesbian students.

You want to know the ones I think are getting screwed? The Indians. We stole this country from them, labelled it ours, invited everyone around the world into it and desgnated certain small chunks of land to them and thats that. I dont hear them bitching and if anybody has the right its theirs.
Click to expand...

They're more organized in canada and are more prominent (relative to the u.s.), and they have more vocal indigenous rights advocates. But you must have never heard of the whole wave of the activism that was particularly promininent in the early 70's, the most notable example being wounded knee in 1973.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']So, to you guys, it's the fault of the gay person in question because they let people know they're gay? That's bullshit, plain and simple.[/QUOTE]

I am honestly the most open minded laid back person I know. What I wrote above I would probably never write in 2 more years but today is the day.

So with that being said. If I am reading you correctly and I read the Op correctly...

Gays or some extension or followers are upset because the teachers didnt want to "support" the activity of displaying gays are "equally accepted at school". Right?

What about "Nerds" that get beat up? What about Blacks or whites or indians or arabics? I am sure arabics get lots of crap since 09/11 I have heard it myself.

What about the girl who likes to screw? The words other womena nd men use to describe her can be fun. What if a sign went up that said "hookers", "tramps and Sluts" are all accepted in class?

What about handicap people? I mean I think its bullshit they have a special school! I mean they should have equal rights! They should be allowed to be in class and not on the "short Bus" and not forced to be home schooled or put in "Special Ed"

If you are going to put up a sign that says its "OK" for one why cant the sign express its "ok" for all groups? Why does it specifically have to point out Homosexuals?

If it specifically points out one group or section it could potentially offend or make someone not from that belief uncomfortable. right?

Thats my point. I cant think of a more perfect example than when that movie was going to come out on Mr. Magoo about 10 years ago. The blind commmunity got in a big uprage because it "made fun of the blind" So they wanted it to not come out.

I honestly dont know if it ever did come out or not but the point is this. Maybe Jim Carey or the nerd from Road trip should get special attention because they can see and a movie had them doing stupid shit in it!

I mean everyone wants Equal rights but in reality its not equal they are asking for. If they did put up a sign saying gays are welcome its not going to make the "bullies" of the school hate them any less is it?

All this is is fuel for the fire.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Exactly my point. I'm not saying its right that they get the piss beat out of them, but they should exercise discretion. You don't drive through Harlem saying "Haha niggers, I have a million dollars!" ( :whistle2:# OMG THATS RACIST!)

If you flaunt anything enough you're bound to attract negative attention. Shirts that convey the message 'hah, I'm gay and you have to listen to me talk about how great I am because of it or else you're a bad person' really don't help things. Its like slapping a pitbull with flank steak. You're going to piss someone off. Leave the "Yay I'm gay" mentality at home.

I'm not saying you have to hide who you are, but think before you run down the halls limpwristedly in a pink leotard shouting gay pride.

I'd find a shirt saying "I love to cum in women's vaginas" offensive and I do enjoy the activity myself, however, that doesn't mean I need to bombard everyone with that fact. "Lets get one thing strait; I am", even though 'hetronormative', is still totally innapropriet for school or work.

I'm not debating the moral implications of homosexuality nor am I condoning acts of violence against gays. I'm saying that I don't think people should make a big deal about their sexual orientation or skin color or ethinic heritage. The world on the whole doesn't give a fuck. Those that do probably want to hate you for it. Thats life.[/QUOTE]

But heterosexuals are expected to, particularly boys. If they don't mention it, or display any real heterosexual interests, one of the possible outcomes is people may accuse them of being gay. Gays often, in fear of the consequences, display heterosexual interests when there are none. It's not like gays are talking about their interests in school on any scale comparative to heterosexuals, most homosexuals do their best to hide it.

What about "Nerds" that get beat up? What about Blacks or whites or indians or arabics? I am sure arabics get lots of crap since 09/11 I have heard it myself.

What about the girl who likes to screw? The words other womena nd men use to describe her can be fun. What if a sign went up that said "hookers", "tramps and Sluts" are all accepted in class?

What about handicap people? I mean I think its bullshit they have a special school! I mean they should have equal rights! They should be allowed to be in class and not on the "short Bus" and not forced to be home schooled or put in "Special Ed"

If you are going to put up a sign that says its "OK" for one why cant the sign express its "ok" for all groups? Why does it specifically have to point out Homosexuals?
Click to expand...

There are signs for all those groups posted occasionally, the only difference is many schools don't have some of those groups, or the policy is considered obvious. This is not saying additional messages don't help though. Though the schools around here don't really have muslims, but hindu's were the ones being harassed after 9/11.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']So, to you guys, it's the fault of the gay person in question because they let people know they're gay? That's bullshit, plain and simple.[/QUOTE]

How can someone so totally analitically anal totally miss the entire fucking point of my post and deduce something totally contrary to something I said 3-4 times?

Can I make the big mean people stop picking on gays? No. Can the government? Not really. Do you honestly think a fucking poster is going to save people from getting the shit beat out of them off school grounds?

You can't control how the world reacts to you, however you can control what you do to encourage reactions.
 
Actually there was a study done showing that schools with clear anti-discrimination policies in place, mentioning the various types specifically, had lower rates of bullying and harassment. I posted the article before, I can dig it up if you want.
 
[quote name='Kayden']How can someone so totally analitically anal totally miss the entire fucking point of my post and deduce something totally contrary to something I said 3-4 times?[/QUOTE]
Why? Because you also contradict yourself and write:

[quote name='Kayden']they should exercise discretion.

If you flaunt anything enough you're bound to attract negative attention. Shirts that convey the message 'hah, I'm gay and you have to listen to me talk about how great I am because of it or else you're a bad person' really don't help things. Its like slapping a pitbull with flank steak. You're going to piss someone off. Leave the "Yay I'm gay" mentality at home.

think before you run down the halls limpwristedly in a pink leotard shouting gay pride.

I'd find a shirt saying "I love to cum in women's vaginas" offensive and I do enjoy the activity myself, however, that doesn't mean I need to bombard everyone with that fact. "Lets get one thing strait; I am", even though 'hetronormative', is still totally innapropriet for school or work.[/QUOTE]
You quite explicitly say that people should just not say anything about their sexual orientation, and implicitly state that if they do, it's due to that fact that consequence happens.

[quote name='Snake2715']I am honestly the most open minded laid back person I know. What I wrote above I would probably never write in 2 more years but today is the day.

So with that being said. If I am reading you correctly and I read the Op correctly...

Gays or some extension or followers are upset because the teachers didnt want to "support" the activity of displaying gays are "equally accepted at school". Right?

What about "Nerds" that get beat up? What about Blacks or whites or indians or arabics? I am sure arabics get lots of crap since 09/11 I have heard it myself.

What about the girl who likes to screw? The words other womena nd men use to describe her can be fun. What if a sign went up that said "hookers", "tramps and Sluts" are all accepted in class?

What about handicap people? I mean I think its bullshit they have a special school! I mean they should have equal rights! They should be allowed to be in class and not on the "short Bus" and not forced to be home schooled or put in "Special Ed"

If you are going to put up a sign that says its "OK" for one why cant the sign express its "ok" for all groups? Why does it specifically have to point out Homosexuals?

If it specifically points out one group or section it could potentially offend or make someone not from that belief uncomfortable. right?

Thats my point. I cant think of a more perfect example than when that movie was going to come out on Mr. Magoo about 10 years ago. The blind commmunity got in a big uprage because it "made fun of the blind" So they wanted it to not come out.

I honestly dont know if it ever did come out or not but the point is this. Maybe Jim Carey or the nerd from Road trip should get special attention because they can see and a movie had them doing stupid shit in it!

I mean everyone wants Equal rights but in reality its not equal they are asking for. If they did put up a sign saying gays are welcome its not going to make the "bullies" of the school hate them any less is it?

All this is is fuel for the fire.[/QUOTE]
I admit I read your post 2 or 3 times, and I'm not quite sure what your point is. ALl minority groups you've mentioned have all been descriminated. All groups have been coddled at the same time. Are you saying they're the same? Then ok. However, if you're saying that they're somewhat different, then, you're dead wrong, since it doesn't matter what the bigotry is about (race, religion, skin color, etc). It happens and is typically misguided and ignorant. However, it seems that homosexuality is the last issue where a vestige of outright bigotry is socially acceptable to demonstrate in public (as opposed to implicit, subtle and cautiously hidden).
 
First of all I hope you or Myke or kayden or anyone doesnt take this personally. I have no quarrels here at all.


[quote name='alonzomourning23']So straight people have a belief telling them to beat homosexuals? I don't see what other belief they are being forced to go against. [/quote]

I am sure gays and women both have beat someone up somewhere. I am sure a straight man has had his ass kicked by a gay somewhere. Should I post that story up and make it the standard? On top of that more than just gays get beat up. Shit straight guys beat up other straights more than gays get their asses kicked what about that?

[quote name='alonzomourning23']"This class is safe for gay and lesbian students", what's offensive there other than it's telling people they can't beat up, harrass or endanger gay and lesbian students.[/quote]

Whats offensive? What if I wanted to go to that class and I cant now because 100% percent are gay? I would then be looked down upon by them and have to sit in class next to their beliefs. On top of that I am essentially going to tell every "straight bully" that I am now gay. Am I not? It becomes NOT safe for anybody other than the gays to go to that class.

Simpler method would be to leave that shit out of school. Or say its safe for everyone. Last I checked getting beat up at school is not acceptible anywhere. Its not like its accepted by the school if a gay guy or girl gets beat up is it? The whole damn school is supposed to be safe for all participants.





[quote name='alonzomourning23']They're more organized in canada and are more prominent (relative to the u.s.), and they have more vocal indigenous rights advocates. But you must have never heard of the whole wave of the activism that was particularly promininent in the early 70's, the most notable example being wounded knee in 1973.[/QUOTE]

I wasnt around in 1973 so to be honest I dont know a lot about it. I dont see any benefit from it do I? From my standpoint I still dont think they get treated fairly. I have a very good friend that is indian and I am 1/16th indian (had to add that as I am sure someone will knock me for 'just having a freind') Hes had a terrible time getting and keeping a job among other problems. I see a ratio and that ratio is not even no matter what your looking at.

People want to categorize everything. I am sure there is the straight guy or bi sexual (we have yet to mention them) that does not want that sign to go up just as there are the straight , gay, and bisexual people that dont care, or want it to go up.


Alonzo

Are you sure on the hetrosexual remarks that they must display other hetrosexual traits? I mean that in itself is a faulted belief is it not? I mean there cant be a gay body builder or construction worker? What about a straight hair stylist or artist/painter?

A straight guy cant were pink or have a rainbow on his car? shit why cant a straight guy be softspoken or a gay guy be a hard ass? Its happened.

If gays are changing their beliefs for the fear of there consequences they are not helping their beliefs any. Be yourself its that simple.
 
I don't doubt that observed incidents decreased, but biggots are mean, not neccisarily stupid. It doesn't neccisarily mean that they were treated any better or didn't get harrassed in more subtle ways or just didn't report it. Increased punishment/observation just leads them to new ways to do it drawing less attention.

Anyone that really wants to do something is going to find a way to do it. Just look at cheating on online games or circumventing copy protection.

Even with protection, there will be people that lash out. This article is proof. They aren't lashing out physically, but verbally.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']Actually there was a study done showing that schools with clear anti-discrimination policies in place, mentioning the various types specifically, had lower rates of bullying and harassment. I posted the article before, I can dig it up if you want.[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='Snake2715']Obviously there is some intolerence towards straight people or they wouldnt be forced by these "groups" to go against their beliefs. [/QUOTE]
???

When are straight people forced to against their beliefs by these "groups"? What are the beliefs of the straight man that are being gone against?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. So you want to deny the existence of history for some sort of foolish "let's all get together as "Americans" instead of this or that" mentality? Where has a society ever existed devoid of racial/ethnic, gender, or sexuality stratification? To think that society can, at any point, ignore differences that are socially (and to a lesser extent biologically) created is absurd and contrary to anything you've ever known.

You can't ignore the problem away - in the case of racism (rather than sexual orientation), Eduardo Bonilla-Silva has an excellent book called "Racism Without Racists." I know you'll not read it, but it's the kind of book that puts that dunderheaded "ignore the problem away" mentality to rest pretty damn well.[/QUOTE]

Myke,

Think about this then. If the first paragraph holds true what exactly are "equal rights"? Do the "minorities" of the world have a different agenda than the one you mentioned in the first paragraph above? Is it to opress the opinions of the "other groups or the "non" minorities?

My point is they want equal rights but if someone put a sign up saying the opposite of what they believe there are getting picked on. If they are allowed to flaunt whatever it is they are then equal?
 
[quote name='Kayden']I don't doubt that observed incidents decreased, but biggots are mean, not neccisarily stupid. It doesn't neccisarily mean that they were treated any better or didn't get harrassed in more subtle ways or just didn't report it. Increased punishment/observation just leads them to new ways to do it drawing less attention.

Anyone that really wants to do something is going to find a way to do it. Just look at cheating on online games or circumventing copy protection.

Even with protection, there will be people that lash out. This article is proof. They aren't lashing out physically, but verbally.[/QUOTE]
Are you suggesting that Biggots are going to be Biggots regardless of other people's actions, and thus any action to try and persuade them are fruitless?
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']???

When are straight people forced to against their beliefs by these "groups"? What are the beliefs of the straight man that are being gone against?[/QUOTE]

To not support what they dont support. If they dont support it they are punished either verbally, written and made an example of etc.

let me ask you this and I am about to head out. I am interested in where this leads though as it is very interesting.

But the question is mao what would you do as a result of the article in the OP? whats your answer to the problem? Post the sign and offend someone? Not post the sign? punish the teachers? Reduce their pay? Make them sign a contract? what?

Seperate the school? What about the kids on the fence or bi? Now they have to make a choice as to what school or class to attend do they not?
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']???

When are straight people forced to against their beliefs by these "groups"? What are the beliefs of the straight man that are being gone against?[/QUOTE]

Also I didnt mean to leave that in my post where I quoted you. I was looking at what you quoted and wrote to better answer or provide my opinion... its been removed now...
FYI
 
[quote name='Snake2715']I dont normally comment. But I am having a bad day and this crap is just that.

Be gay, be straight, be racist, be white, black, yellow, purple whatever. Shit be the antichrist for that matter... or wait he doesnt exist so maybe I should say be american.[/QUOTE]

WTF does Electronic Arts have to do with this?

[quote name='Snake2715']Obviously there is some intolerence towards straight people or they wouldnt be forced by these "groups" to go against their beliefs. If you dont like that they dont want to hang the sign so what. Go do it yoruself.[/QUOTE]

Intolerance towards straight people? Are you fucking retarded? They don't form groups because they feel persecuted for being straight; they form the groups because they don't like gay people.

[quote name='Snake2715']Kaydens exactly right. If "this classroom is safe for straights" was posted it would be a big ass problem. Or if I called my local "Hip Hop/Urban" station and proclaimed that its not fair they always talk about "black rights" and slam White/Caucasions/etc on a daily basis. It would pose a problem and would never get aired. Or how about I make a hand gesture for "White Power" like you see on MTV by a lot of the artists. Or at the 5 million man march. Oh thats right we killed Hitler already.[/QUOTE]

Again, straight kids aren't harassed for being straight, and there is no cultural acceptance to harass kids for being straight. The opposite is true for gay people, so it must be fought.

[quote name='Snake2715'] Or what about the local authorities that have to give artificailly inflated "bonus points" to potential "minority" police hirees to balance it for everyone. What about the white guy who got screwed in that deal who has 6 children to feed thats also on welfare?.[/QUOTE]

Completely off-topic.

[quote name='Snake2715']Whats next teachers that dont like and support gays get fired? I mean what the hell is happening to this country. Its so "free" that half of everybodies freedoms are being taken away.[/QUOTE]

If someone doesn't like gay people simply because their, then no, they don't deserve to be a teacher in a public school. Same would apply if they were a racist or sexist.

[quote name='Snake2715']If your a straight christian you are the devil in half the peoples eyes. And you sure as shit better not as much as smile the wrong way or you will prosecuted, labeled and put into print how wrong you are... And who thinks they are better than everyone else again? Both sides are quilty of this. Or better yet everybody is guilty of it in some way. As I am sure there are more than just two sides if not now there will be.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what being "quilty" has to do with anything, but the overwhelming majoirty of Americans are straight Christians, so you're argument fails.

[quote name='Snake2715']I mean you cant even say Super Bowl on the air or in your advertisements without approval from the NFL. So now its the "Big Game" or Super Game, Party etc...[/QUOTE]

What the fuck?

[quote name='Snake2715']GM is out there testing their little black boxes in Canada that FORCE your car to not exceed the posted speed limit by GPS tracking. Why dont they just put a petition up to remove roadways and reinstall railways as our standard method of transportation. I mean in 96 when speed limits increased nationally we all know that it reduced accidents but that doesnt matter.[/QUOTE]

Again, what the fuck?

[quote name='Snake2715']You want to know the ones I think are getting screwed? The Indians. We stole this country from them, labelled it ours, invited everyone around the world into it and desgnated certain small chunks of land to them and thats that. I dont hear them bitching and if anybody has the right its theirs.[/QUOTE]

Are you drunk or something?

[quote name='Snake2715']Some of this stuff I read makes me sick. Its not the topic its the point that in the last 10 years everyone has a problem with the "other half" and its just getting worse. Meanwhile world views of our country have sunk so low its not even funny.[/QUOTE]

O................k.......

EDIT:

[quote name='Snake2715']
I am sure gays and women both have beat someone up somewhere. I am sure a straight man has had his ass kicked by a gay somewhere. Should I post that story up and make it the standard? On top of that more than just gays get beat up. Shit straight guys beat up other straights more than gays get their asses kicked what about that?[/QUOTE]

Problem: Gays are getting beat up BECAUSE they are gay. That is inherently different that two people, gay or straight, for beating each other for random reasons.

[quote name='Snake2715']Whats offensive? What if I wanted to go to that class and I cant now because 100% percent are gay? I would then be looked down upon by them and have to sit in class next to their beliefs. On top of that I am essentially going to tell every "straight bully" that I am now gay. Am I not? It becomes NOT safe for anybody other than the gays to go to that class. [/QUOTE]

WTF? Now this I just don't understand. Next to their beliefs? So believeing that they are equal to you is wrong?

[quote name='Snake2715']Simpler method would be to leave that shit out of school. Or say its safe for everyone. Last I checked getting beat up at school is not acceptible anywhere. Its not like its accepted by the school if a gay guy or girl gets beat up is it? The whole damn school is supposed to be safe for all participants. [/QUOTE]

But the reality is that gay students are more likely to be harassed than other students. It is also viewed as being somewhat culturaly acceptable.

[quote name='Snake2715']Alonzo

Are you sure on the hetrosexual remarks that they must display other hetrosexual traits? I mean that in itself is a faulted belief is it not? I mean there cant be a gay body builder or construction worker? What about a straight hair stylist or artist/painter?

A straight guy cant were pink or have a rainbow on his car? shit why cant a straight guy be softspoken or a gay guy be a hard ass? Its happened.

If gays are changing their beliefs for the fear of there consequences they are not helping their beliefs any. Be yourself its that simple.[/QUOTE]

WTF? Where did this come from?

[quote name='Snake2715']Myke,

Think about this then. If the first paragraph holds true what exactly are "equal rights"? Do the "minorities" of the world have a different agenda than the one you mentioned in the first paragraph above? Is it to opress the opinions of the "other groups or the "non" minorities?

My point is they want equal rights but if someone put a sign up saying the opposite of what they believe there are getting picked on. If they are allowed to flaunt whatever it is they are then equal?[/QUOTE]

Problem: Many people don't see gays as equal. Therefore steps must be taken to ensure their equality.

[quote name='Snake2715']To not support what they dont support. If they dont support it they are punished either verbally, written and made an example of etc.

let me ask you this and I am about to head out. I am interested in where this leads though as it is very interesting.

But the question is mao what would you do as a result of the article in the OP? whats your answer to the problem? Post the sign and offend someone? Not post the sign? punish the teachers? Reduce their pay? Make them sign a contract? what?

Seperate the school? What about the kids on the fence or bi? Now they have to make a choice as to what school or class to attend do they not?[/QUOTE]

What the fuck does "support" mean? Support the idea that gay people are equal are deserve to be treated with the same level of respect and acceptance as everybody elese?

Here's a simple fact: Disliking someone because they are gay is wrong. Plain and simple.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']Are you suggesting that Biggots are going to be Biggots regardless of other people's actions, and thus any action to try and persuade them are fruitless?[/QUOTE]

Isn't that fairly obvious? Speed limits don't stop speeders. DWIs don't stop alcoholics. You can try to disuade them by making it not worth their while to express their hate, but that doesn't really stop them from hating. Then it also goes on to what is allowed expression? You can't beat gays. You can't say you hate gays. You can't say you don't like gays. You can't not sit next to a gay because hes gay? You have to hold hands with the gays to fully appreciate the gayness? Where does the line get drawn? Even regulations like affirmative action that are designed to 'promote' equality can only serve to increase the hostility. "Damn negro got my job just because he's back."

[quote name='capitalist_mao']Why? Because you also contradict yourself and write:
You quite explicitly say that people should just not say anything about their sexual orientation, and implicitly state that if they do, it's due to that fact that consequence happens.[/QUOTE]

Huh?

[quote name='mykevermin']Hmm. So you want to deny the existence of history for some sort of foolish "let's all get together as "Americans" instead of this or that" mentality? Where has a society ever existed devoid of racial/ethnic, gender, or sexuality stratification? To think that society can, at any point, ignore differences that are socially (and to a lesser extent biologically) created is absurd and contrary to anything you've ever known.

You can't ignore the problem away - in the case of racism (rather than sexual orientation), Eduardo Bonilla-Silva has an excellent book called "Racism Without Racists." I know you'll not read it, but it's the kind of book that puts that dunderheaded "ignore the problem away" mentality to rest pretty damn well.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to hide ignorant hate. I'm actually flat out saying its going to happen no matter what. All stupid signs like this really do is create double standards that will most likely only fuel hostility. How would a sign in an airport saying "Its ok to be Muslim" be received?

Am I foolish to believe that such a hate free utopia could exist? Most certainly not. By pointing out the flaws and the hate I'm not trying to single out what we should get rid of, but trying to remind people the shit their going to have to put up with if they want to make their personal lives public.

You can be gay without wearing gay pride shirts. I'm not saying gays should lie and cower in fear. I'm saying if you they don't want a ton of negative attention they should stop forcing everyone to praise them for being gay. They have the right to be gay and others have the right to not like them for it. Blungeoning people with your gay pride is probably the best way to render someone unacceptant to it. Theres a very "you have to like me because I'm gay vibe" and that kind of arrogance is just going to fuel even more hate.

AGAIN, I'm not saying its right for Christains (or anyone) to harrass gays (or anyone). But the plain truth of the matter is that it is going to happen no matter how many 'lets all hold hands and be politically acceptant of each other' signs we put up in class rooms.
 
[quote name='Snake2715']To not support what they dont support. If they dont support it they are punished either verbally, written and made an example of etc.[/QUOTE]
What value is being punished? Just because they disaprove of homosexuality does not mean that making a classroom a safe place for homosexuals is punishing straight people.

[quote name='Snake2715'] let me ask you this and I am about to head out. I am interested in where this leads though as it is very interesting.

But the question is mao what would you do as a result of the article in the OP? whats your answer to the problem? Post the sign and offend someone? Not post the sign? punish the teachers? Reduce their pay? Make them sign a contract? what?

Seperate the school? What about the kids on the fence or bi? Now they have to make a choice as to what school or class to attend do they not?[/QUOTE]
What would I do? I'd suspend the teachers (without pay) until they accept tolerance of homosexuals. If they don't wish to abide by rules to make a school community more cohesive and less hazardous, they can kiss their sorry asses goodbye. To have bigotted views of homosexuality makes a classroom a hazardous environment. In an age where school shootings is a real and legitimate fear, the last thing a school needs to do is keep teachers around that promote a lack of tolerance among their students towards fellow students. This will easily lead to animosity if not outright malicious behavior.

Especially considering that religious views have no room in a classroom outside of academic study, there should be no reason for a teacher to espouse their religious views with how they teach and tolerate students. A classroom should NOT be a dangerous place for students. Until then, I have little tolerance for bigots.

[quote name='Kayden']Isn't that fairly obvious? Speed limits don't stop speeders. DWIs don't stop alcoholics. You can try to disuade them by making it not worth their while to express their hate, but that doesn't really stop them from hating. Then it also goes on to what is allowed expression? You can't beat gays. You can't say you hate gays. You can't say you don't like gays. You can't not sit next to a gay because hes gay? You have to hold hands with the gays to fully appreciate the gayness? Where does the line get drawn? Even regulations like affirmative action that are designed to 'promote' equality can only serve to increase the hostility. "Damn negro got my job just because he's back."[/QUOTE]
Your reasoning fails to explain how the slaves were freed, the protestant reformation, civil rights of the 1960s, the transformation of Nazi Germany to current day Germany or any other tumultuous change that has occured. Even if quite a few bigots aren't changed, there are plenty of people that think critically about their actions that may take these things to heart and change. Reinforcement that bigotry is bad (can you give an example when bigotry is good? It's like saying ignorance is good) changes future generations, especially younger people who have much more maleable opinions. High school students most certainly have maleable opinions, and positive reinforcement of how bigotry is bad will hit home a lot better.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Isn't that fairly obvious? Speed limits don't stop speeders. DWIs don't stop alcoholics. You can try to disuade them by making it not worth their while to express their hate, but that doesn't really stop them from hating. Then it also goes on to what is allowed expression? You can't beat gays. You can't say you hate gays. You can't say you don't like gays. You can't not sit next to a gay because hes gay? You have to hold hands with the gays to fully appreciate the gayness? Where does the line get drawn? Even regulations like affirmative action that are designed to 'promote' equality can only serve to increase the hostility. "Damn negro got my job just because he's back."[/QUOTE]
Your reasoning fails to explain how the slaves were freed, the protestant reformation, civil rights of the 1960s, the transformation of Nazi Germany to current day Germany or any other tumultuous change that has occured. Even if quite a few bigots aren't changed, there are plenty of people that think critically about their actions that may take these things to heart and change. Reinforcement that bigotry is bad (can you give an example when bigotry is good? It's like saying ignorance is good) changes future generations, especially younger people who have much more maleable opinions. High school students most certainly have maleable opinions, and positive reinforcement of how bigotry is bad will hit home a lot better.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Isn't that fairly obvious? Speed limits don't stop speeders. DWIs don't stop alcoholics. You can try to disuade them by making it not worth their while to express their hate, but that doesn't really stop them from hating. Then it also goes on to what is allowed expression? You can't beat gays. You can't say you hate gays. You can't say you don't like gays. You can't not sit next to a gay because hes gay? You have to hold hands with the gays to fully appreciate the gayness? Where does the line get drawn? Even regulations like affirmative action that are designed to 'promote' equality can only serve to increase the hostility. "Damn negro got my job just because he's back."
[/QUOTE]

People who are caught driving drunk go to jail. People who speed are given tickets. That discourages those actions and makes them unacceptable.

Discouraging people from hating gays and showing them the wrongness of their beliefs, especially at a young age, helps makes gays more equal and makes the world safer for them.

[quote name='Kayden']I'm not trying to hide ignorant hate. I'm actually flat out saying its going to happen no matter what. All stupid signs like this really do is create double standards that will most likely only fuel hostility. How would a sign in an airport saying "Its ok to be Muslim" be received?[/QUOTE]

Well, unless the airport was full of racist retards, it wouldn't be a problem.

[quote name='Kayden']Am I foolish to believe that such a hate free utopia could exist? Most certainly not. By pointing out the flaws and the hate I'm not trying to single out what we should get rid of, but trying to remind people the shit their going to have to put up with if they want to make their personal lives public.[/QUOTE]

What you're effectively saying is that gay people should never admit to being gay, show affection to their partners, or talk about their sexuality, even though straight people do that all the time, simply because some people feel hate towards them.

[quote name='Kayden']You can be gay without wearing gay pride shirts. I'm not saying gays should lie and cower in fear. I'm saying if you they don't want a ton of negative attention they should stop forcing everyone to praise them for being gay. They have the right to be gay and others have the right to not like them for it. Blungeoning people with your gay pride is probably the best way to render someone unacceptant to it. Theres a very "you have to like me because I'm gay vibe" and that kind of arrogance is just going to fuel even more hate.[/QUOTE]

No one is asking anyone to praise gay people for being gay. They are merely trying to get rid of the idea that being gay is somehow wrong or that gay people are less human than straight people.

[quote name='Kayden']AGAIN, I'm not saying its right for Christains (or anyone) to harrass gays (or anyone). But the plain truth of the matter is that it is going to happen no matter how many 'lets all hold hands and be politically acceptant of each other' signs we put up in class rooms.[/QUOTE]

So we shouldn't try to eliminate as much of it as possible?
 
[quote name='Snake2715']

I am sure gays and women both have beat someone up somewhere. I am sure a straight man has had his ass kicked by a gay somewhere. Should I post that story up and make it the standard? On top of that more than just gays get beat up. Shit straight guys beat up other straights more than gays get their asses kicked what about that?[/quote]

It's not a question of harrassment of attacks, but why there are those things. Of course many attacks are not related to bigotry, but some are. Then you have to look at the frequency of such things. Homosexuals are much more often the target of abuse than heterosexuals, due to their sexual preference.



Whats offensive? What if I wanted to go to that class and I cant now because 100% percent are gay? I would then be looked down upon by them and have to sit in class next to their beliefs. On top of that I am essentially going to tell every "straight bully" that I am now gay. Am I not? It becomes NOT safe for anybody other than the gays to go to that class.
Click to expand...

That doesn't even make sense. I don't know how that would happen unless you think they're recruiting gays or something. But all they are doing is posting a poster. No one is telling anyone who's gay, no one is doing anything about beliefs. They are placing emphasis on already forbidden behavior. You can't go up to a kid in school and start yelling fag at him, and you can't punch him in the face for being gay. Now, if you think that should be acceptable at schools then that's a difference issue, but it would be a change in current policy to accomodate bigots. This is no change, just stating what's already inappropriate behavior. [/quote]

Simpler method would be to leave that shit out of school. Or say its safe for everyone. Last I checked getting beat up at school is not acceptible anywhere. Its not like its accepted by the school if a gay guy or girl gets beat up is it? The whole damn school is supposed to be safe for all participants.
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But it is currently more dangerous for certain students than others. For example, there are violence/ domestic abuse against women posters all over but I don't see many people going around condemning those. Some do include men, but it's due to the realization that they are also sometimes victims, not due to any outrage that they dare say women should be safe.



People want to categorize everything. I am sure there is the straight guy or bi sexual (we have yet to mention them) that does not want that sign to go up just as there are the straight , gay, and bisexual people that dont care, or want it to go up.
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Well, there are gays who hate themselves for being gay. People may think it's pointless, but unless you are offended by being told you can't harrass people or beat up people for being gay I don't see the point. And if being told you can't harrass or attack gay people does offend you, then I think you have a problem already.


Alonzo

Are you sure on the hetrosexual remarks that they must display other hetrosexual traits? I mean that in itself is a faulted belief is it not? I mean there cant be a gay body builder or construction worker? What about a straight hair stylist or artist/painter?

A straight guy cant were pink or have a rainbow on his car? shit why cant a straight guy be softspoken or a gay guy be a hard ass? Its happened.
Click to expand...

By "interests" I meant sexual interests, not stereotypical ones. The gays often do go out of their way to hide their sexuality, including taking extremely traditional male roles.

If gays are changing their beliefs for the fear of there consequences they are not helping their beliefs any. Be yourself its that simple.
Click to expand...

No it's not. People want to be socially acceptable, hell even when psychologists do anonymous testing they still have people giving the most socially acceptable answer.

But when be yourself carries serious social consequences, even to the point of complete social rejection and bodily harm, it can be extremely difficult to be yourself, if not dangerous.
 
I don't doubt that observed incidents decreased, but biggots are mean, not neccisarily stupid. It doesn't neccisarily mean that they were treated any better or didn't get harrassed in more subtle ways or just didn't report it. Increased punishment/observation just leads them to new ways to do it drawing less attention.

Anyone that really wants to do something is going to find a way to do it. Just look at cheating on online games or circumventing copy protection.

Even with protection, there will be people that lash out. This article is proof. They aren't lashing out physically, but verbally.
Click to expand...

Well, everyone is a bigot in some way. It's more a question of which prejudice do you hold, not if you do. Another question is how far you take it, and how you act it out. Then there's the whole issue of wanting to fit in with a certain crowd, which may result in people who wouldn't normally care participating int he bigotry to fit in.

But the whole point is to minimize it, if they participate in less severe forms then that's a benefit. If they lash out verbally at the institution, but not the children, that's a benefit. If they lash out verbally, not physically, that's also a benefit. If less people lash out that's another benefit.

It's just a poster, it's not going to have much effect. But there is a significant problem of bigotry in todays world, schools as well. Therefore someone needs to come up with a better reason than they're offended that gays are being told they're safe. They don't have the right in schools to verbally or physically attack gay students to begin with, so reinforcing that rule is hardly out of bounds.
 
Dispite those events, the Catholic church is still knee deep in money, women are still objects in some parts of the world, racism is still brought up almost daily and groups like the KKK and Nazis still exist.

I think your zest for smiting biggots is just making you one yourself. Maybe theres a reason they choose not to display the posters beyond hating gays. Maybe they don't feel its an appropriet subject to have in school. Maybe they think tollerence should be given to everyone. Maybe they think that by saying its ok to be gay they're leaving others feel left out. Gays are good enough for a sign? Why dont they have signs for the nerds, goths, skaters, metalheads, gearheads, junkies, sluts, preps, jocks or socialites? The sign should read "It is not acceptable to discriminate against ANYONE based on color, language, race, religion, sexual preference, shoe size, number of teeth and/or the ability to pee standing up."

If singleling people out for being gay is inherently wrong, then this sign is wrong! Its drawing particular attention to them being gay. Making an issue of them being gay. Making everyone be concious of how they act towards them because they're gay. Its making them the center of attention because they are gay. Hardly equal.


[quote name='capitalist_mao']What value is being punished? Just because they disaprove of homosexuality does not mean that making a classroom a safe place for homosexuals is punishing straight people.


What would I do? I'd suspend the teachers (without pay) until they accept tolerance of homosexuals. If they don't wish to abide by rules to make a school community more cohesive and less hazardous, they can kiss their sorry asses goodbye. To have bigotted views of homosexuality makes a classroom a hazardous environment. In an age where school shootings is a real and legitimate fear, the last thing a school needs to do is keep teachers around that promote a lack of tolerance among their students towards fellow students. This will easily lead to animosity if not outright malicious behavior.

Especially considering that religious views have no room in a classroom outside of academic study, there should be no reason for a teacher to espouse their religious views with how they teach and tolerate students. A classroom should NOT be a dangerous place for students. Until then, I have little tolerance for bigots.


Your reasoning fails to explain how the slaves were freed, the protestant reformation, civil rights of the 1960s, the transformation of Nazi Germany to current day Germany or any other tumultuous change that has occured. Even if quite a few bigots aren't changed, there are plenty of people that think critically about their actions that may take these things to heart and change. Reinforcement that bigotry is bad (can you give an example when bigotry is good? It's like saying ignorance is good) changes future generations, especially younger people who have much more maleable opinions. High school students most certainly have maleable opinions, and positive reinforcement of how bigotry is bad will hit home a lot better.[/QUOTE]
 
:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

Why do we keep agreeing in disagreeing tones?

I'm not saying gays should feel ashamed or hide the truth. I'm saying if they're going to be so.... flamboiant about being gay they should expect retaliation.

I'm not saying they should have to suffer. I'm just saying you're going to find trouble when you frolic down a dark alley wearing a pink shirt with a rainbow on it that says 'Made in the US... Gay!" singing girls just wanna have fun. (You should know I'm embelishing)

At this point in time-- AS THINGS STAND NOT, NOT HOW THEY SHOULD BE IDEALLY -- wearing pro gay paraphenalia will put your ass in a sling if you flash it infront of the wrong person. To minimize the ass beatings they should minimize the inflamatory shirts/bracelets/etc. Right or wrong is irrelavent. I'm suggesting what they should do to reduce incidents in a practical fashion.
 
[quote name='Kayden']Dispite those events, the Catholic church is still knee deep in money, women are still objects in some parts of the world, racism is still brought up almost daily and groups like the KKK and Nazis still exist.[/QUOTE]

And it's not NEARLY as bad as it once was, proving our point.

[quote name='Kayden']I think your zest for smiting biggots is just making you one yourself. [/QUOTE]

I've read stupid things, but that may be the stupidest. It is inherently wrong to dislike/hate somebody because of something beyond their control. Trying to marginalize someone for holding such a view is fine.

[quote name='Kayden']Maybe theres a reason they choose not to display the posters beyond hating gays. Maybe they don't feel its an appropriet subject to have in school. Maybe they think tollerence should be given to everyone. Maybe they think that by saying its ok to be gay they're leaving others feel left out. Gays are good enough for a sign? Why dont they have signs for the nerds, goths, skaters, metalheads, gearheads, junkies, sluts, preps, jocks or socialites? The sign should read "It is not acceptable to discriminate against ANYONE based on color, language, race, religion, sexual preference, shoe size, number of teeth and/or the ability to pee standing up."[/QUOTE]

Because being gay is a feature that people are born with. You're not born a skater, goth, etc. Being a goth, skater, etc. is a choice. There's a HUGE difference.

[quote name='Kayden']If singleling people out for being gay is inherently wrong, then this sign is wrong! Its drawing particular attention to them being gay. Making an issue of them being gay. Making everyone be concious of how they act towards them because they're gay. Its making them the center of attention because they are gay. Hardly equal.[/QUOTE]

The ill effect of not having the sign (harassment of gay students) far outweighs the ill effect of having the sign (less harassment of gay students, and a few straight students irked).

Also, by putting up the sign, they are trying to make both gay students feel more comfortable and to make students who harass/hate gays singled-out and unwelcome. Singling gays out with the intent to bully is obviously much different, making your comparison fallacious.

[quote name='Kayden']
I'm not saying gays should feel ashamed or hide the truth. I'm saying if they're going to be so.... flamboiant about being gay they should expect retaliation.[/QUOTE]

Because every gay person is flamboyant about it, right? Wrong. The overwhelming majoirty of gay people are completely normal and appear/act no different than you or I.

[quote name='Kayden']I'm not saying they should have to suffer. I'm just saying you're going to find trouble when you frolic down a dark alley wearing a pink shirt with a rainbow on it that says 'Made in the US... Gay!" singing girls just wanna have fun. (You should know I'm embelishing)[/QUOTE]

But by admitting you're embelishing, you're essential making your point moot.

[quote name='Kayden']At this point in time-- AS THINGS STAND NOT, NOT HOW THEY SHOULD BE IDEALLY -- wearing pro gay paraphenalia will put your ass in a sling if you flash it infront of the wrong person. To minimize the ass beatings they should minimize the inflamatory shirts/bracelets/etc. Right or wrong is irrelavent. I'm suggesting what they should do to reduce incidents in a practical fashion.[/QUOTE]

So we should be punishing those who wear pro-gay paraphenalia (whatever the fuck that is) and appease those who would take issue with it? Oh, that makes sense.
 
[quote name='Kayden']These two replies are more or less the same. You can tell by the simple fact that homosexual couples can't reproduce makes them abnormal/not natural. .[/QUOTE]

Actually homosexuals can reproduce, they just don't like it.
 
[quote name='Kayden']:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

Why do we keep agreeing in disagreeing tones?

I'm not saying gays should feel ashamed or hide the truth. I'm saying if they're going to be so.... flamboiant about being gay they should expect retaliation.

I'm not saying they should have to suffer. I'm just saying you're going to find trouble when you frolic down a dark alley wearing a pink shirt with a rainbow on it that says 'Made in the US... Gay!" singing girls just wanna have fun. (You should know I'm embelishing)

At this point in time-- AS THINGS STAND NOT, NOT HOW THEY SHOULD BE IDEALLY -- wearing pro gay paraphenalia will put your ass in a sling if you flash it infront of the wrong person. To minimize the ass beatings they should minimize the inflamatory shirts/bracelets/etc. Right or wrong is irrelavent. I'm suggesting what they should do to reduce incidents in a practical fashion.[/QUOTE]

Well, a lot of people do it as an attempt to make homosexuality more normal. But what about walking down the street and 2 guys holding hands? Or kissing? Those are perfectly normal things for couples to do. They're not drawing attention on their sexuality any more than any heterosexual couple does. Most would argue that such public displays make people more accepting of such things over time.

It's one thing to excpect people not to act recklessly such as attending an particularly far right evangelical christian church wearing a "gay by god" shirt, or if a woman wore an "I had an abortion shirt" (both would be very funny to see the reaction, but still reckless), but it is another to be excpected to intentionally hide something.

But, again, many feel that by being so open they will make it more acceptable and reduce future problems. Kind of like in canada where gay marriage is starting to be viewed as part of canadian life, but it was a much more contested issue before it was fully legalized.
 
[quote name='Kayden']
I'm not saying gays should feel ashamed or hide the truth. I'm saying if they're going to be so.... flamboiant about being gay they should expect retaliation.

I'm not saying they should have to suffer. I'm just saying you're going to find trouble when you frolic down a dark alley wearing a pink shirt with a rainbow on it that says 'Made in the US... Gay!" singing girls just wanna have fun. (You should know I'm embelishing)

At this point in time-- AS THINGS STAND NOT, NOT HOW THEY SHOULD BE IDEALLY -- wearing pro gay paraphenalia will put your ass in a sling if you flash it infront of the wrong person. To minimize the ass beatings they should minimize the inflamatory shirts/bracelets/etc. Right or wrong is irrelavent. I'm suggesting what they should do to reduce incidents in a practical fashion.[/QUOTE]

by that logic, a women who dresses risque should expect to be raped or a african-american who displays some pride on his house should be expect to have a burning cross on his lawn. That is a damned slipperly sloped that leads to "they were asking for it" land. After all, the responsiblity is on them...

Truth is, when you have been marginalize for so long about one thing, you are bound to have some pride simply as self defense. And as part of the fucking process is displaying who you are. Societal change ain't pretty and it doesn't happen by hiding every little thing that might upset "regular" folk. Hell, you might is sound a damned rainbow sticker is an affront to the world. Granted outright vulgarity is a seperate matter, but part of being free is freedom of expression. You can't expect a minority is sit quietly in the corner while you get around to letting them be themselves.

Maybe it is easy for you but one shouldn't remove right or wrong from the equation. If we do that, damn near everything could be justified or "explained".
 
Kayden: You're absolutely right. Don't let anyone tell you that wanting people to not be defined in the ways that some people want to define them (race, gender, ethnicity, class, gay/straight, etc.) is wrong. Nobody deserves any special or different treatment based on these kinds of things.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Kayden: You're absolutely right. Don't let anyone tell you that wanting people to not be defined in the ways that some people want to define them (race, gender, ethnicity, class, gay/straight, etc.) is wrong. Nobody deserves any special or different treatment based on these kinds of things.[/QUOTE]

That's not what any of us are saying. We are merely pointing out the reality that gay students are far more likely to be harassed than others, and such harassment is especially unacceptable because they cannot change the fact that they are gay. In order to combat this, steps need to be taken to make gay students feel safer and to educate straight students about tolerance.

Let me break it down into something really simple:

1. Everyone should be equal.

2. Some people feel that others are not equal to them because of factors beyond their control.

3. A group especially viewed in this way is homosexuals.

4. This is especially true in schools, where gay students are persecuted by their peers at a much higher degree.

5. Thus, in order to combat this, schools sometime take measures above and beyond what they do for other groups in order to prevent any harassment of gay students.

6. Eventually, society will reach a point where this isn't even an issue, so extra steps will no longer have to be taken.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Kayden: You're absolutely right. Don't let anyone tell you that wanting people to not be defined in the ways that some people want to define them (race, gender, ethnicity, class, gay/straight, etc.) is wrong. Nobody deserves any special or different treatment based on these kinds of things.[/QUOTE]

Kayden is arguing that people should not display certain things about themselves because the reaction they get. It really leads to people placing boundaries on themselves, not engaging in otherwise normal actions, including ones that members of the other group would engage in, because other people are bigots. For example, a recently married couple may go around showing people their wedding photos. That's normal. If a recently married gay couple did the same many would call that flaunting their sexuality, when it's really not. The same as a guy wearing one of the porn shirts (or anything that displays an interest in women). No one thinks they're flaunting their heterosexuality, and in most cases they aren't (just that they like sex). A gay guy though would automatically be assumed to be flaunting his homosexuality (not just his interest in sex) if he wore a similar shirt.

I personally have a rather odd view of these things, I don't think people should define themselves as gay/straight, black/white etc. other than to improve the status of those groups. So in a sense it is important to identify yourself with a group to normalize it, to make it so those people can be viewed as equal members of society. But I am uncomfortable with things such as black history month, as I feel it only increases the tendency to ignore non-white history since people just think "well, they have their month". People shouldn't be remembered just one month out of the year, and it comes off as just treating it like a charity case. As a result, I do not actively participate in such months even when groups I'm involved with do. I do strongly believe such history should be incorporated into the rest of the curriculum.

In a setting where people are equal (ie. among friends), I have a strong distaste for such labels. Growing up the people I hung around with tended to be east asian or indian (from india) and I often stood out as the white kid (especially when I went to culture specific things). Most of the times it was fine, but other times I got labelled as the white kid. On rare occasions it ruined things.

Since I think you are taking a shot at AA I'll explain my position on that briefly. In society, I think laws that level the playing field, even if by sometimes treating members unequally, are sometimes (not always) justified if the end result is equality. I believe government should play an active role in improving society, and I often believe that the ends do justify the means, assuming the means aren't worse than the ends (which they quite often are when people argue that way).

But in this case no one is arguing for treating anyone differently. All we are saying is that it is acceptable for them to put up a poster saying that those of a different sexual orientation should not be harrassed or attacked. Somehow people think that intrudes on the rights of those who do not approve of homosexuality, as if they could do those things before.
 
[quote name='evanft']That's not what any of us are saying. We are merely pointing out the reality that gay students are far more likely to be harassed than others, and such harassment is especially unacceptable because they cannot change the fact that they are gay. In order to combat this, steps need to be taken to make gay students feel safer and to educate straight students about tolerance.

Let me break it down into something really simple:

1. Everyone should be equal.

2. Some people feel that others are not equal to them because of factors beyond their control.

3. A group especially viewed in this way is homosexuals.

4. This is especially true in schools, where gay students are persecuted by their peers at a much higher degree.

5. Thus, in order to combat this, schools sometime take measures above and beyond what they do for other groups in order to prevent any harassment of gay students.

6. Eventually, society will reach a point where this isn't even an issue, so extra steps will no longer have to be taken.[/QUOTE]

Here's what you're really saying, even if you don't know it:

1. Everyone should be equal.

2. Some of us are more equal than others.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Here's what you're really saying, even if you don't know it:

1. Everyone should be equal.

2. Some of us are more equal than others.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm saying that some people AREN'T necessarily equal because of the way society views them. Steps must be taken to correct that and therefore make them equal.

Basically, what AM said. To a certain extent (although I probably wouldn't go as far as AA or any kind of reverse-discrimination, if you wanna call it that), government does play a role in helping groups who have been disadvantaged, shunned, etc. for no other reason than a natural trait that harms no one. I mean, look at how far women and blacks have come in just the last 50 years. I would argue that men and women, blacks and whites are on an almost equal playing field when it comes to employment, education, etc. Of course, the numbers may not necessarily say that, but if you set everything else equal (income, development, etc.), my argument would probably pan out. Now obviously, gays today do not have it as bad as women, or especially blacks once did, but the fight for their equality is still important.

Also, like AM said, there is no special treatment in question hear. This is just a poster reminding people that harassing someone because of their sexuality is not ok. This does not cause harm to anybody, nor should it offend any reasonable person. The motivation behind it is to end the cultural acceptance toward the hating of homosexuals, which makes standard measure against bullying (punishment, general "no bullying" ploicies) somewhat ineffective.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Here's what you're really saying, even if you don't know it:

1. Everyone should be equal.

2. Some of us are more equal than others.[/QUOTE]

If you ignore hegemony, then yes, he is saying that.

On the contrary, if this argument were being brought up prior to the civil rights act, or perhaps even the ol' emancipation proclamation, then would we be defending whites' right to talk down to, mock, or otherwise demean blacks in a psychological or physical fashion? Would you support the right of whites to do that in this day and age?

That's a rhetorical, of course - but the point is, if you disallow gays from the same protections against those who are brought up to believe in the natural order of things (a natural order that carries a stark hierarchy along with it, that, naturally, places them on top), then you are denying that gays have no choice in their orientation. You are either turning a blind eye to discrimination of people based on sexual orientation, or you are promoting it. It's classic "blaming the victim."

Kayden, remember when I couldn't fucking stand you early on in your CAG tenure? I'm being reminded of that. I can deal with your points, but they don't have to be blanketed in such, ahem, heteronormative language that you have to portray every gay male as wearing a pink shirt and a boa, talking like Mario Cantone and using phrases akin to "slammin' the salami" or "pork pie-ing" or whatever juvenile phrase you have in mind at the moment. It implicitly shows the lack of regard for what gay people engage in. Here's a hint: it's called sex. Please keep the epithets to a minimum.

For those of you who think that gay students are asking to much, let me present an axiom:

1) Heterosexual students are not harrassed, mocked, beaten, gossiped about, or otherwise abused because of their sexuality.

2) Homosexual students do run the risk of harrassment, mockery, physical violence, and abuse directly as a result of their sexuality.

3) The rules suggested by the school seek strictly to remedy the differential treatment presented in #1 and #2. The goal is for sexual orientation to not be a causal factor in intra-student conflict.

4) There is a qualitative difference between disapproving of homosexuality and actively abusing those who are homosexual. The school rules seek to affect the latter, not the former.

5) Those who disapprove of the school's tactics do not recognize the point in #4, or they otherwise promote the abuse of homosexual students.

6) A teacher may have a belief system contrary to the official stance of the school. It is not part of their job description to impose their viewpoints; in truth, the protection of any student for any reason is a higher priority than their belief system. If they don't care for this arrangment of priorities, they can look elsewhere for employment.

That's how I break this down. To suggest that gay students should be comfortable in school is not to suggest that anyone else has to be happy with their sexuality; rather, it is to suggest that gay students shouldn't be subject to physical or verbal violence directed at them as a consequence of their sexuality. You don't have to like them, but you can't pound their face in and/or call them "queer." I don't know if that sounds like special rights to you, but if it requires "special rights" to get a group of people treated like you or I tend to be treated on a daily basis, then special rights it is.

Get off your fucking high horse to defend childrens' rights to be hateful, because next I'll come at you asking if we should give christian students the right to avoid biology class, given that it will inevitably infringe upon their rights to believe a ghost story over repeated hypothesis testing.
 
“This is about bullying people and saying you will kneel down and bow to the Baal god of homosexuality -- or we’ll make your life very miserable,”
Click to expand...

Behold Baal - protector of homosexuals! Fear his godly powers of "hate crime law" and "liberal hollywood"! See him terrorize christians everywhere with the devastating spectacle of two women kissing! Baal has reawoken and the Babylonians will now have their revenge!!!

Baal.jpg
 
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