Trancendental
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42649318/ns/local_news-new_york_ny/
In this instance, both are grossly overpaid. But the custodian - holy shit.
I should have been a custodian
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42649318/ns/local_news-new_york_ny/
In this instance, both are grossly overpaid. But the custodian - holy shit.
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Does anyone think a janitor is entitled to a six-figure salary?
depascal22
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$100,000 a year with decades of tenure and a Master's is not overpaid in Manhattan.
[quote name='camoor']Does anyone think a janitor is entitled to a six-figure salary?[/QUOTE]
No. Not unless they're more of a building engineer that cleans (i.e. they also work on the HVAC systems, plumbing, etc.) AND are only getting that much from working a shit-ton of overtime. Then maybe I could see it.
But that's just the nature of unions. On the one hand they're a good thing and a needed thing to help prevent exploitation of workers and make sure people are getting a good wage and benefits etc. But on the other hand you get things like this where over time salaries in certain jobs in certain areas get super over-inflated by the union.
[quote name='depascal22']$100,000 a year with decades of tenure and a Master's is not overpaid in Manhattan.[/QUOTE]
Agreed on that. But he was asking bout the custodian.
No. Not unless they're more of a building engineer that cleans (i.e. they also work on the HVAC systems, plumbing, etc.) AND are only getting that much from working a shit-ton of overtime. Then maybe I could see it.
But that's just the nature of unions. On the one hand they're a good thing and a needed thing to help prevent exploitation of workers and make sure people are getting a good wage and benefits etc. But on the other hand you get things like this where over time salaries in certain jobs in certain areas get super over-inflated by the union.
[quote name='depascal22']$100,000 a year with decades of tenure and a Master's is not overpaid in Manhattan.[/QUOTE]
Agreed on that. But he was asking bout the custodian.
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Soodmeg
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Yeah unions are shitty like that and it pisses me off. Being from and living in the Detroit area I get a first hand view of this every day. I want to force every car with a "Out of a job yet? Keep buying Foreign," bumper sticker off the road.
I personally know 4 fork lift drivers for Ford and each of them make 60k a year. No education beyond high school and a fork lift class. Every time I meet someone in a union they always just ooze that American stereotype of getting paid the most amount of money for the least amount of work. This is not to say that they are lazy its just outrageous that we have so many college grads out there who cant even land a job in their field that pays even with the amount of loans it took to even go through school.
The idea of union is great but just like most organized groups they have been consumed by their own power with the irony being that they prevent workers from being exploited by simply exploiting business, officials and the media around them.
I personally know 4 fork lift drivers for Ford and each of them make 60k a year. No education beyond high school and a fork lift class. Every time I meet someone in a union they always just ooze that American stereotype of getting paid the most amount of money for the least amount of work. This is not to say that they are lazy its just outrageous that we have so many college grads out there who cant even land a job in their field that pays even with the amount of loans it took to even go through school.
The idea of union is great but just like most organized groups they have been consumed by their own power with the irony being that they prevent workers from being exploited by simply exploiting business, officials and the media around them.
I see no issue with a custodian making 6-figures. They work longer hours than many teachers, put up with constant crap from teachers, students, and admin, have to do some nasty chores along the way, be proficient in many different fields (it's not just mopping, janitors at my schools did electrical work, all factions of cleaning, plumbing, heating and AC, etc etc).
What I have a problem with are lazy bum teachers who complain about wages when their salaries and benefits packages are typically amazing. Sure, it's nothing that's going to leave you a multimillionaire at the end of the day, but it's a guaranteed paycheck and pretty much impossible to lose your job (short of touching children or mass exodus from an area).
Masters doesn't have to be complete in order to start the job, and teaching is one of the few professions that accomodates your education with a guaranteed increase in pay once you have it. In my area, I would assume the average start salary of a college grad is in the low to mid 30's. Teachers at the lowest paid districts start at $45k. It's no accident the number of tenured teachers who drive European cars and live in very nice homes.
What I have a problem with are lazy bum teachers who complain about wages when their salaries and benefits packages are typically amazing. Sure, it's nothing that's going to leave you a multimillionaire at the end of the day, but it's a guaranteed paycheck and pretty much impossible to lose your job (short of touching children or mass exodus from an area).
Masters doesn't have to be complete in order to start the job, and teaching is one of the few professions that accomodates your education with a guaranteed increase in pay once you have it. In my area, I would assume the average start salary of a college grad is in the low to mid 30's. Teachers at the lowest paid districts start at $45k. It's no accident the number of tenured teachers who drive European cars and live in very nice homes.
Unions are great when they are protective of their workers... today most unions seemed focused on greed and praise. All take and no give, regardless of what economic times dictate. Too much entitlement coming from unions these days. (not just teachers unions). Honestly, if pay is the issue, cut out union dues and work to keep your job by being a good and effective employee. I would say that 10-15% of all the teachers I have ever had have been absolutly ineffective and worthless. Including a french class where we would spend 20 minutes every 50 minute class throwing pennies at the chalkboard trying to make them stay up on the top ledge. Great when you're a middleschooler who doesn't want to be in school, but terrible when you have a NYS French Regents exam in high school and missed out on a year of language class.
[quote name='Retom7']I see no issue with a custodian making 6-figures. They work longer hours than many teachers, put up with constant crap from teachers, students, and admin, have to do some nasty chores along the way, be proficient in many different fields (it's not just mopping, janitors at my schools did electrical work, all factions of cleaning, plumbing, heating and AC, etc etc).
[/QUOTE]
Like I said. I have no problem with $100k for those type of custodians who are really maintenance technicians who also do cleaning and work a lot of overtime etc.
If it's pure janitors who are only cleaning, it's a different matter. Most universities and some public schools have cleaning crews who do nothing but clean and a maintenance department that deals with things that need repaired.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said. I have no problem with $100k for those type of custodians who are really maintenance technicians who also do cleaning and work a lot of overtime etc.
If it's pure janitors who are only cleaning, it's a different matter. Most universities and some public schools have cleaning crews who do nothing but clean and a maintenance department that deals with things that need repaired.
depascal22
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They're called Custodian Engineers. It says right in the article that they're paid to keep the schools clean AND operating. I would assume that operating means simple mechanical repairs but it could very well mean changing light bulbs and making sure there isn't anything blocking the fire exits.
[quote name='Clak']I can only imagine how small a representation of custodian pay this is. In other words, it's the exception not the rule.[/QUOTE]
For sure. It's just a unionized job in one of the a highest cost of living areas. Definitely an exception to the rule. And likely even the exception to the rule in the NYC area.
For sure. It's just a unionized job in one of the a highest cost of living areas. Definitely an exception to the rule. And likely even the exception to the rule in the NYC area.
depascal22
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When I lived in NY, the Daily News ran a story every year about some public sector worker that made over 100k. Whether it was a train conductor or firefighter, they'd put a list or five or six people in the paper and people would bitch that these uneducated fools were taking the city for a ride. Never mind that some of these guys were basically pulling double shifts six days a week because the city made personnel cuts.
The article makes a great point. Custodians work year round while teachers get the summer off.
The article makes a great point. Custodians work year round while teachers get the summer off.
[quote name='depascal22']When I lived in NY, the Daily News ran a story every year about some public sector worker that made over 100k. Whether it was a train conductor or firefighter, they'd put a list or five or six people in the paper and people would bitch that these uneducated fools were taking the city for a ride. Never mind that some of these guys were basically pulling double shifts six days a week because the city made personnel cuts.[/QUOTE]
Yep. Just looking at salaries is useless without also knowing how many hours were worked etc.
Yep. Just looking at salaries is useless without also knowing how many hours were worked etc.
Trancendental
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[quote name='depascal22']When I lived in NY, the Daily News ran a story every year about some public sector worker that made over 100k. Whether it was a train conductor or firefighter, they'd put a list or five or six people in the paper and people would bitch that these uneducated fools were taking the city for a ride. Never mind that some of these guys were basically pulling double shifts six days a week because the city made personnel cuts.
The article makes a great point. Custodians work year round while teachers get the summer off.[/QUOTE]
More facts never hurt. But check this out:
On the custodian vs teacher issue - as a parent would you be more interested in getting the best teacher or the best custodian. Do you want the most inspiring font of knowledge, or the best cleaner of puke?
The article makes a great point. Custodians work year round while teachers get the summer off.[/QUOTE]
More facts never hurt. But check this out:
Minimum. As in, guy walks off the street, gets hired, and works a straight nine-to-five. And topping out at 114K is just base pay - that's before you factor in overtime and whatever bonuses these guys get.
On the custodian vs teacher issue - as a parent would you be more interested in getting the best teacher or the best custodian. Do you want the most inspiring font of knowledge, or the best cleaner of puke?
cochesecochese
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The article is way, way, way too broadly written. It doesn't state what these custodians have to do, exactly, nor does it state how many are actually making that much money.
Our local paper ran a story on a mechanic for public transportation making over 100k a year. What happened was that they laid off a ton of people and found was that paying these guys for overtime was more cost efficient than hiring someone to share the load. This is a union job btw. I say kudos to those employees and more power to them for getting it while I can. My dumb ass went to college to work in an exempt field and won't see an extra penny if I worked 144 hours of a week.
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[quote name='QiG']I say kudos to those employees and more power to them for getting it while I can. My dumb ass went to college to work in an exempt field and won't see an extra penny if I worked 144 hours of a week.[/QUOTE]
I'm not going to blame a bluecollar American for scrambling to earn every dollar he can, but I take issue with giving some puke-mopper kudos for taking home a six-figure salary.
I'm not putting the blame squarely on the shoulders of overpaid custodians (believe me) - but being a world-class drain on local govt budgets should not count as a kudos-worthy accomplishment.
It's dumbass self-defeating shit like this that gives unions and liberals a bad name.
I'm not going to blame a bluecollar American for scrambling to earn every dollar he can, but I take issue with giving some puke-mopper kudos for taking home a six-figure salary.
I'm not putting the blame squarely on the shoulders of overpaid custodians (believe me) - but being a world-class drain on local govt budgets should not count as a kudos-worthy accomplishment.
It's dumbass self-defeating shit like this that gives unions and liberals a bad name.
I don't get all the custodian hate. Kids are 
ing messy. Call me biased, but a custodian once sifted through at least ten 20 gal bags of garbage to find my retainer that worked year round in a school with at least 500 kids under 10, a full gym, and 3 lunches with 1 other coworker. Did the guy make 100k? Probably not, but I will be goddamned if I think he shouldn't be able to have a wage that allowed him to support his family in a thankless shit job by the likes of people like you. And if he was making over $100k, good for him.
It's not the dumbass self-defeating shit like this that gives unions and liberals a bad name, it's your lack of solidarity.
ing messy. Call me biased, but a custodian once sifted through at least ten 20 gal bags of garbage to find my retainer that worked year round in a school with at least 500 kids under 10, a full gym, and 3 lunches with 1 other coworker. Did the guy make 100k? Probably not, but I will be goddamned if I think he shouldn't be able to have a wage that allowed him to support his family in a thankless shit job by the likes of people like you. And if he was making over $100k, good for him.It's not the dumbass self-defeating shit like this that gives unions and liberals a bad name, it's your lack of solidarity.
[quote name='dohdough']I don't get all the custodian hate. Kids are ing messy. Call me biased, but a custodian once sifted through at least ten 20 gal bags of garbage to find my retainer that worked year round in a school with at least 500 kids under 10, a full gym, and 3 lunches with 1 other coworker. Did the guy make 100k? Probably not, but I will be goddamned if I think he shouldn't be able to have a wage that allowed him to support his family in a thankless shit job by the likes of people like you. And if he was making over $100k, good for him.
It's not the dumbass self-defeating shit like this that gives unions and liberals a bad name, it's your lack of solidarity.[/QUOTE]
That 100K doesn't just fall from the sky you know.
ing messy. Call me biased, but a custodian once sifted through at least ten 20 gal bags of garbage to find my retainer that worked year round in a school with at least 500 kids under 10, a full gym, and 3 lunches with 1 other coworker. Did the guy make 100k? Probably not, but I will be goddamned if I think he shouldn't be able to have a wage that allowed him to support his family in a thankless shit job by the likes of people like you. And if he was making over $100k, good for him.It's not the dumbass self-defeating shit like this that gives unions and liberals a bad name, it's your lack of solidarity.[/QUOTE]
That 100K doesn't just fall from the sky you know.
Trancendental
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[quote name='dohdough']Neither do the record Wall St bonuses for the last...well...forever. And the last few years are from our tax dollars too. So what's your point.[/QUOTE]
True - out-of-control Wall St bonuses are one of the top ten problems with America and my intent is not to divert focus from that.
I just thought this was interesting is all. I thought 100K was alot of money (I think the minimum of 80K is alot of money). I'm surprised I'm not getting more agreement on that. If I can walk out on the street and find a comparable custodian willing to take the job for half as much money (and I can) then something is seriously wrong.
True - out-of-control Wall St bonuses are one of the top ten problems with America and my intent is not to divert focus from that.
I just thought this was interesting is all. I thought 100K was alot of money (I think the minimum of 80K is alot of money). I'm surprised I'm not getting more agreement on that. If I can walk out on the street and find a comparable custodian willing to take the job for half as much money (and I can) then something is seriously wrong.
depascal22
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I'll say it again. 100K is not a lot in Manhattan. Not only do they have high state and federal taxes, but the city of New York has an income tax as well. Owning a car is damn near impossible because of the cost to park and insure it.
If a custodian was making 50K in Indiana, would you have a problem with it? With cost of living factored in, it's equivalent to making around 100K in Manhattan.
If a custodian was making 50K in Indiana, would you have a problem with it? With cost of living factored in, it's equivalent to making around 100K in Manhattan.
[quote name='depascal22']I'll say it again. 100K is not a lot in Manhattan. Not only do they have high state and federal taxes, but the city of New York has an income tax as well. Owning a car is damn near impossible because of the cost to park and insure it.
If a custodian was making 50K in Indiana, would you have a problem with it? With cost of living factored in, it's equivalent to making around 100K in Manhattan.[/QUOTE]
I think the main thing I need in order to have an informed opinion on it is what custodians with similar responsibilities make in the private sector in Manhattan.
If they're making around the same, then I have little problem with. But if a custodian cleaning and maintaining private office building is making way less than the $100k a public school custodian is, then there's clearly a problem.
But in general, as I said before, I don't have a lot of problems with $50K in rural areas, $100k in metro areas if we're talking building engineers who don't just clean but are trained in HVAC repairs, plumbing, electrical work etc. as then we're talking skilled laborers who warrant a higher wage than an unskilled laborer who's simply a janitor and doing nothing more than cleaning.
If a custodian was making 50K in Indiana, would you have a problem with it? With cost of living factored in, it's equivalent to making around 100K in Manhattan.[/QUOTE]
I think the main thing I need in order to have an informed opinion on it is what custodians with similar responsibilities make in the private sector in Manhattan.
If they're making around the same, then I have little problem with. But if a custodian cleaning and maintaining private office building is making way less than the $100k a public school custodian is, then there's clearly a problem.
But in general, as I said before, I don't have a lot of problems with $50K in rural areas, $100k in metro areas if we're talking building engineers who don't just clean but are trained in HVAC repairs, plumbing, electrical work etc. as then we're talking skilled laborers who warrant a higher wage than an unskilled laborer who's simply a janitor and doing nothing more than cleaning.
[quote name='dohdough']I don't think we need to discuss why the market shouldn't be be used to dictate the floor for wages. I swear, it's like a race-to-the-bottom in this thread.[/QUOTE]
It's not a race to the bottom. It's just that pay should reflect the skills and/or education needed for the job.
If it's a totally unskilled, manual labor job, then it should pay a bare minimum living wage and nothing more. You shouldn't live comfortably and enjoy luxuries etc. from doing a job a trained monkey can do.
If that's the case, people have no real incentive to better themselves and acquire skills that make them truly useful to society and moving humanity forward, rather than just doing shit jobs that "somebody has to do."
The pay scale should encourage people to better themselves by learning skilled trades or getting great educations and working in education, science, medicine etc.
If you can make a very comfortable living doing low stress, shit jobs that take little education or skills I think more in society would become complacent to just doing nothing with their lives and just working for a paycheck.
Unskilled jobs should pay enough to live modestly on in the particular area, as everyone working full time deserves a living wage, but no more, so people view those as jobs for the unsuccessful and thus set their sights higher.
It's not a race to the bottom. It's just that pay should reflect the skills and/or education needed for the job.
If it's a totally unskilled, manual labor job, then it should pay a bare minimum living wage and nothing more. You shouldn't live comfortably and enjoy luxuries etc. from doing a job a trained monkey can do.
If that's the case, people have no real incentive to better themselves and acquire skills that make them truly useful to society and moving humanity forward, rather than just doing shit jobs that "somebody has to do."
The pay scale should encourage people to better themselves by learning skilled trades or getting great educations and working in education, science, medicine etc.
If you can make a very comfortable living doing low stress, shit jobs that take little education or skills I think more in society would become complacent to just doing nothing with their lives and just working for a paycheck.
Unskilled jobs should pay enough to live modestly on in the particular area, as everyone working full time deserves a living wage, but no more, so people view those as jobs for the unsuccessful and thus set their sights higher.
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Access_Denied
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[quote name='dmaul1114']No. Not unless they're more of a building engineer that cleans (i.e. they also work on the HVAC systems, plumbing, etc.) AND are only getting that much from working a shit-ton of overtime. Then maybe I could see it.
But that's just the nature of unions. On the one hand they're a good thing and a needed thing to help prevent exploitation of workers and make sure people are getting a good wage and benefits etc. But on the other hand you get things like this where over time salaries in certain jobs in certain areas get super over-inflated by the union.
Agreed on that. But he was asking bout the custodian.[/QUOTE]
That's generally what a custodian is. They generally fix anything that goes wrong as well. Clogged sinks, broken windows, non-functioning radiators, etc. At least that's what my uncle had to do under the title of custodian.
But that's just the nature of unions. On the one hand they're a good thing and a needed thing to help prevent exploitation of workers and make sure people are getting a good wage and benefits etc. But on the other hand you get things like this where over time salaries in certain jobs in certain areas get super over-inflated by the union.
Agreed on that. But he was asking bout the custodian.[/QUOTE]
That's generally what a custodian is. They generally fix anything that goes wrong as well. Clogged sinks, broken windows, non-functioning radiators, etc. At least that's what my uncle had to do under the title of custodian.
[quote name='Access_Denied']That's generally what a custodian is. They generally fix anything that goes wrong as well. Clogged sinks, broken windows, non-functioning radiators, etc. At least that's what my uncle had to do under the title of custodian.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it just varies. Like I said some school districts have those type of custodians. Other's just have janitors who do cleaning and very minor repair things and just contract out for major repairs like HVAC or replacing windows etc.
Especially smaller schools. It's cheaper to just pay a cleaning person and just hire out when something more serious needs repaired than it is to pay a better trained custodian all the time since a smaller school won't need the serious repairs all that often.
Larger schools have more things breaking and its thus cheaper to have custodians who are also maintenance technicians who get paid a lot more than pure janitors than it is to call repair guys every time something breaks.
Yeah, it just varies. Like I said some school districts have those type of custodians. Other's just have janitors who do cleaning and very minor repair things and just contract out for major repairs like HVAC or replacing windows etc.
Especially smaller schools. It's cheaper to just pay a cleaning person and just hire out when something more serious needs repaired than it is to pay a better trained custodian all the time since a smaller school won't need the serious repairs all that often.
Larger schools have more things breaking and its thus cheaper to have custodians who are also maintenance technicians who get paid a lot more than pure janitors than it is to call repair guys every time something breaks.
Trancendental
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[quote name='dmaul1114']It's not a race to the bottom. It's just that pay should reflect the skills and/or education needed for the job.
If it's a totally unskilled, manual labor job, then it should pay a bare minimum living wage and nothing more. You shouldn't live comfortably and enjoy luxuries etc. from doing a job a trained monkey can do.
If that's the case, people have no real incentive to better themselves and acquire skills that make them truly useful to society and moving humanity forward, rather than just doing shit jobs that "somebody has to do."
The pay scale should encourage people to better themselves by learning skilled trades or getting great educations and working in education, science, medicine etc.
If you can make a very comfortable living doing low stress, shit jobs that take little education or skills I think more in society would become complacent to just doing nothing with their lives and just working for a paycheck.
Unskilled jobs should pay enough to live modestly on in the particular area, as everyone working full time deserves a living wage, but no more, so people view those as jobs for the unsuccessful and thus set their sites higher.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Dmaul, I completely agree.
As a general comment I think it's funny (and a tad ironic) that educated liberals can articulate the true philosophy of capitalism better then any other segment of the general public.
If it's a totally unskilled, manual labor job, then it should pay a bare minimum living wage and nothing more. You shouldn't live comfortably and enjoy luxuries etc. from doing a job a trained monkey can do.
If that's the case, people have no real incentive to better themselves and acquire skills that make them truly useful to society and moving humanity forward, rather than just doing shit jobs that "somebody has to do."
The pay scale should encourage people to better themselves by learning skilled trades or getting great educations and working in education, science, medicine etc.
If you can make a very comfortable living doing low stress, shit jobs that take little education or skills I think more in society would become complacent to just doing nothing with their lives and just working for a paycheck.
Unskilled jobs should pay enough to live modestly on in the particular area, as everyone working full time deserves a living wage, but no more, so people view those as jobs for the unsuccessful and thus set their sites higher.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Dmaul, I completely agree.
As a general comment I think it's funny (and a tad ironic) that educated liberals can articulate the true philosophy of capitalism better then any other segment of the general public.
WeaponX2099
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[quote name='QiG']Our local paper ran a story on a mechanic for public transportation making over 100k a year. What happened was that they laid off a ton of people and found was that paying these guys for overtime was more cost efficient than hiring someone to share the load. This is a union job btw. I say kudos to those employees and more power to them for getting it while I can. My dumb ass went to college to work in an exempt field and won't see an extra penny if I worked 144 hours of a week.[/QUOTE]
That is bullshit. In this case do the local mechanic earn the money, hell yeah. But grinding them down while doing that can not help.
That is bullshit. In this case do the local mechanic earn the money, hell yeah. But grinding them down while doing that can not help.
[quote name='camoor']Thanks Dmaul, I completely agree.
As a general comment I think it's funny (and a tad ironic) that educated liberals can articulate the true philosophy of capitalism better then any other segment of the general public.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but to be fair I lean a bit to the right on labor market issues.
Also, to clarify a couple points on my last post before anyone gets their panties in a bunch.
1. Most working class jobs aren't "low stress" but are high stress because they pay shit and have shit job security. Thus I'm only talking about the "exception to the rule" cases like this where it's a union job with a good wage, benefits and job security. Too many of those kind of jobs will kill incentive to learn skilled trades, get educations and work in jobs that move society forward rather than just providing services.
2. My posts in no way devalues unskilled blue collar workers as people. It's purely talking about what the monetary value of unskilled labor should be. It says nothing about their value as people as that's largely separate from one's career. There are plenty of well educated skilled laborers moving society forward in their careers that are completely useless as human beings in their personal live, and plenty of menial laborers who are great people and do lots of volunteer work etc.
As a general comment I think it's funny (and a tad ironic) that educated liberals can articulate the true philosophy of capitalism better then any other segment of the general public.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but to be fair I lean a bit to the right on labor market issues.
Also, to clarify a couple points on my last post before anyone gets their panties in a bunch.
1. Most working class jobs aren't "low stress" but are high stress because they pay shit and have shit job security. Thus I'm only talking about the "exception to the rule" cases like this where it's a union job with a good wage, benefits and job security. Too many of those kind of jobs will kill incentive to learn skilled trades, get educations and work in jobs that move society forward rather than just providing services.
2. My posts in no way devalues unskilled blue collar workers as people. It's purely talking about what the monetary value of unskilled labor should be. It says nothing about their value as people as that's largely separate from one's career. There are plenty of well educated skilled laborers moving society forward in their careers that are completely useless as human beings in their personal live, and plenty of menial laborers who are great people and do lots of volunteer work etc.
Soodmeg
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This is the time that I think we should ask, dohdough if they went to college. He (assuming he) kind has that aura of a person who shrugs off the value of the whole going to college thing.
In the lines of what Dmaul is trying to get at, "Building Engineer," is VASTLY DIFFERENT from custodian or janitor. One cleans desks, takes out trash, mow lawns, cleans bathrooms and do handy man type stuff.....the other is trained to fix dynamic problems in relation to managing a buildings functionality.
Example, when a cargo lift breaks...they dont call a guy with a mop and bucket they call a guy with knowledge of mechanically engineering.
Clog sinks, broken windows etc dont mean shit. Not to say those things are not important but are considered handyman work. When you start talking about fixing lifts, escalator, maintaining high voltage generators...IE things that take vast amounts of training to do then we can talk about over a 100k salary.
In the lines of what Dmaul is trying to get at, "Building Engineer," is VASTLY DIFFERENT from custodian or janitor. One cleans desks, takes out trash, mow lawns, cleans bathrooms and do handy man type stuff.....the other is trained to fix dynamic problems in relation to managing a buildings functionality.
Example, when a cargo lift breaks...they dont call a guy with a mop and bucket they call a guy with knowledge of mechanically engineering.
Clog sinks, broken windows etc dont mean shit. Not to say those things are not important but are considered handyman work. When you start talking about fixing lifts, escalator, maintaining high voltage generators...IE things that take vast amounts of training to do then we can talk about over a 100k salary.
[quote name='dmaul1114']It's not a race to the bottom. It's just that pay should reflect the skills and/or education needed for the job.
If it's a totally unskilled, manual labor job, then it should pay a bare minimum living wage and nothing more. You shouldn't live comfortably and enjoy luxuries etc. from doing a job a trained monkey can do.
If that's the case, people have no real incentive to better themselves and acquire skills that make them truly useful to society and moving humanity forward, rather than just doing shit jobs that "somebody has to do."
The pay scale should encourage people to better themselves by learning skilled trades or getting great educations and working in education, science, medicine etc.
If you can make a very comfortable living doing low stress, shit jobs that take little education or skills I think more in society would become complacent to just doing nothing with their lives and just working for a paycheck.
Unskilled jobs should pay enough to live modestly on in the particular area, as everyone working full time deserves a living wage, but no more, so people view those as jobs for the unsuccessful and thus set their sights higher.[/QUOTE]
If that were true, then everyone would want to grow up to be a UPS driver or a garbage man. What makes you think they're low-stress? What makes you think they require no skill? Maybe some people are happy just getting by. Not everyone wants to be a scientist/doctor/criminal justice professor.
In a day when jobs with living wages are disappearing like the dodo and income/wealth disparity are at the highest levels in 90 years, are we that sociopathic to say that a person that works a full-time job providing a necessary services to NOT be allowed any luxuries and relegated to subsistance living?
Weren't you a server at one point in your life? I'd expect a little more empathy.
[quote name='camoor']Thanks Dmaul, I completely agree.
As a general comment I think it's funny (and a tad ironic) that educated liberals can articulate the true philosophy of capitalism better then any other segment of the general public.[/QUOTE]
Sounds more like you guys are promoting neo-liberalism to me.
[quote name='Soodmeg']This is the time that I think we should ask, dohdough if they went to college. He (assuming he) kind has that aura of a person who shrugs off the value of the whole going to college thing.
In the lines of what Dmaul is trying to get at, "Building Engineer," is VASTLY DIFFERENT from custodian or janitor. One cleans desks, takes out trash, mow lawns, cleans bathrooms and do handy man type stuff.....the other is trained to fix dynamic problems in relation to managing a buildings functionality.
Example, when a cargo lift breaks...they dont call a guy with a mop and bucket they call a guy with knowledge of mechanically engineering.
Clog sinks, broken windows etc dont mean shit. Not to say those things are not important but are considered handyman work. When you start talking about fixing lifts, escalator, maintaining high voltage generators...IE things that take vast amounts of training to do then we can talk about over a 100k salary.[/QUOTE]
First off, college is not the only way or place to learn critical thinking skills and I'm sure you all can atest to some of the dumbasses that graduated with you. If a college degree was an indication of intelligence, we wouldn't have all the republi conservatives that we do. You seem to have the aura of an elitist prick. How about that?
Not everyone can get a college degree and all this does is further divide the have-somes and the have-nots. There can be signifigant socio-economic barriers to entry. School systems that have drop-out factories are doing exactly what they are designed to do. Ghettos are doing exactly what they're designed to do. The system of higher-education is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. If it was all really that easy, then everyone would do it. It just isn't.
That said, I'm not against higher education. We need more people in the struggle and being educated is important, but lets not forget that the proletariat deserve more than the table scraps of the bourgeosie. Simply saying "go to college" or "they don't deserve to make more than me when I have a BA" is no different than bootstraps and crabs(crabs grab other crabs that try to escape from buckets).
And whether I went to college is irrelevant. I did., I got laid-off a couple months ago and I'm even going back, so what of it. I was also never in law enforcement either. Does that mean I can't have an opinion or that my stance is less valid than those that are? neo-liberalism.
If it's a totally unskilled, manual labor job, then it should pay a bare minimum living wage and nothing more. You shouldn't live comfortably and enjoy luxuries etc. from doing a job a trained monkey can do.
If that's the case, people have no real incentive to better themselves and acquire skills that make them truly useful to society and moving humanity forward, rather than just doing shit jobs that "somebody has to do."
The pay scale should encourage people to better themselves by learning skilled trades or getting great educations and working in education, science, medicine etc.
If you can make a very comfortable living doing low stress, shit jobs that take little education or skills I think more in society would become complacent to just doing nothing with their lives and just working for a paycheck.
Unskilled jobs should pay enough to live modestly on in the particular area, as everyone working full time deserves a living wage, but no more, so people view those as jobs for the unsuccessful and thus set their sights higher.[/QUOTE]
If that were true, then everyone would want to grow up to be a UPS driver or a garbage man. What makes you think they're low-stress? What makes you think they require no skill? Maybe some people are happy just getting by. Not everyone wants to be a scientist/doctor/criminal justice professor.
In a day when jobs with living wages are disappearing like the dodo and income/wealth disparity are at the highest levels in 90 years, are we that sociopathic to say that a person that works a full-time job providing a necessary services to NOT be allowed any luxuries and relegated to subsistance living?
Weren't you a server at one point in your life? I'd expect a little more empathy.
[quote name='camoor']Thanks Dmaul, I completely agree.
As a general comment I think it's funny (and a tad ironic) that educated liberals can articulate the true philosophy of capitalism better then any other segment of the general public.[/QUOTE]
Sounds more like you guys are promoting neo-liberalism to me.
[quote name='Soodmeg']This is the time that I think we should ask, dohdough if they went to college. He (assuming he) kind has that aura of a person who shrugs off the value of the whole going to college thing.
In the lines of what Dmaul is trying to get at, "Building Engineer," is VASTLY DIFFERENT from custodian or janitor. One cleans desks, takes out trash, mow lawns, cleans bathrooms and do handy man type stuff.....the other is trained to fix dynamic problems in relation to managing a buildings functionality.
Example, when a cargo lift breaks...they dont call a guy with a mop and bucket they call a guy with knowledge of mechanically engineering.
Clog sinks, broken windows etc dont mean shit. Not to say those things are not important but are considered handyman work. When you start talking about fixing lifts, escalator, maintaining high voltage generators...IE things that take vast amounts of training to do then we can talk about over a 100k salary.[/QUOTE]
First off, college is not the only way or place to learn critical thinking skills and I'm sure you all can atest to some of the dumbasses that graduated with you. If a college degree was an indication of intelligence, we wouldn't have all the republi
conservatives that we do. You seem to have the aura of an elitist prick. How about that?Not everyone can get a college degree and all this does is further divide the have-somes and the have-nots. There can be signifigant socio-economic barriers to entry. School systems that have drop-out factories are doing exactly what they are designed to do. Ghettos are doing exactly what they're designed to do. The system of higher-education is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. If it was all really that easy, then everyone would do it. It just isn't.
That said, I'm not against higher education. We need more people in the struggle and being educated is important, but lets not forget that the proletariat deserve more than the table scraps of the bourgeosie. Simply saying "go to college" or "they don't deserve to make more than me when I have a BA" is no different than bootstraps and crabs(crabs grab other crabs that try to escape from buckets).
And whether I went to college is irrelevant. I did.
, I got laid-off a couple months ago and I'm even going back, so what of it. I was also never in law enforcement either. Does that mean I can't have an opinion or that my stance is less valid than those that are? neo-liberalism.[quote name='dohdough']
In a day when jobs with living wages are disappearing like the dodo and income/wealth disparity are at the highest levels in 90 years, are we that sociopathic to say that a person that works a full-time job providing a necessary services to NOT be allowed any luxuries and relegated to subsistance living?
Weren't you a server at one point in your life? I'd expect a little more empathy.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, my opinion is limited to career choices, not a person's worth as a person.
I just have a lot more respect for people who choose to go after careers that make some kind of impact on society. Be it generating knowledge, improving health, doing social work etc., than people who work just to make a paycheck and get by. A career consumes at a minimum, around 1/3rd of our adult lives--better to choose one that has some worth beyond a paycheck IMO. Find something you enjoy and is worthwhile for society's progress rather than just a paycheck and providing a basic service etc.
And again, that doesn't mean people that do that aren't good people. I have plenty of friends and family that just work simple menial jobs to get by. I just don't admire them the way I do people that bust ass and spend their time trying to make a difference in their career rather than just making a paycheck. But I can admire them in other aspects for being decent people, good friends etc.
And jobs like UPS etc. do suck people into those types of careers. I worked in a UPS warehouse for awhile with a lot of other college kids as they had a good tuition program etc. Several did end up dropping out as the UPS job was a viable career option.
In terms of low stress, menial jobs that offer a good wage, good benefits and job security are definitely lower stress than some white collar career. You're working more steady hours, getting over time if you have to work more and you have a job you don't take home with you. Your nights and weekends are yours. Where as things like academic jobs, doctors, lawyers etc. are working lots of nights and weekends, stressing about work when not there, being on call during "time off" etc. That's what I was getting at.
But, as I said, those types of jobs are few and far between. For every good job like UPS or the big salaried custodian or the union utility worker etc, there are a shit ton of terrible menial jobs that pay shit wages, offer no benefits and no job security. And those are the most stressful types of career options out there for sure.
As for empathy. I have some--all jobs should pay a living wage. But over all I'm not all that empathetic a person. I'm not a raging liberal like some of the other lefties on the forum by any means. I lean to the right on labor issues for the most part, and I'm fairly judgmental about what I think ideal life/career goals should be etc. And I've freely admitted before to being pretty much an elitist intellectual and that being a big part of why I choose to work in academia--so I mainly only have to associate with other like-minded folks. So I don't take it as an insult at all when that label gets thrown at me.
Like I said, I now plenty of non-intellectuals I respect as good people. I just don't admire them or enjoy conversations with them the way I do with other intellectual types who's lives aren't purely oriented toward making money, raising a family and having fun.
In a day when jobs with living wages are disappearing like the dodo and income/wealth disparity are at the highest levels in 90 years, are we that sociopathic to say that a person that works a full-time job providing a necessary services to NOT be allowed any luxuries and relegated to subsistance living?
Weren't you a server at one point in your life? I'd expect a little more empathy.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, my opinion is limited to career choices, not a person's worth as a person.
I just have a lot more respect for people who choose to go after careers that make some kind of impact on society. Be it generating knowledge, improving health, doing social work etc., than people who work just to make a paycheck and get by. A career consumes at a minimum, around 1/3rd of our adult lives--better to choose one that has some worth beyond a paycheck IMO. Find something you enjoy and is worthwhile for society's progress rather than just a paycheck and providing a basic service etc.
And again, that doesn't mean people that do that aren't good people. I have plenty of friends and family that just work simple menial jobs to get by. I just don't admire them the way I do people that bust ass and spend their time trying to make a difference in their career rather than just making a paycheck. But I can admire them in other aspects for being decent people, good friends etc.
And jobs like UPS etc. do suck people into those types of careers. I worked in a UPS warehouse for awhile with a lot of other college kids as they had a good tuition program etc. Several did end up dropping out as the UPS job was a viable career option.
In terms of low stress, menial jobs that offer a good wage, good benefits and job security are definitely lower stress than some white collar career. You're working more steady hours, getting over time if you have to work more and you have a job you don't take home with you. Your nights and weekends are yours. Where as things like academic jobs, doctors, lawyers etc. are working lots of nights and weekends, stressing about work when not there, being on call during "time off" etc. That's what I was getting at.
But, as I said, those types of jobs are few and far between. For every good job like UPS or the big salaried custodian or the union utility worker etc, there are a shit ton of terrible menial jobs that pay shit wages, offer no benefits and no job security. And those are the most stressful types of career options out there for sure.
As for empathy. I have some--all jobs should pay a living wage. But over all I'm not all that empathetic a person. I'm not a raging liberal like some of the other lefties on the forum by any means. I lean to the right on labor issues for the most part, and I'm fairly judgmental about what I think ideal life/career goals should be etc. And I've freely admitted before to being pretty much an elitist intellectual and that being a big part of why I choose to work in academia--so I mainly only have to associate with other like-minded folks. So I don't take it as an insult at all when that label gets thrown at me.
Like I said, I now plenty of non-intellectuals I respect as good people. I just don't admire them or enjoy conversations with them the way I do with other intellectual types who's lives aren't purely oriented toward making money, raising a family and having fun.
To be fair, it used to be that someone could actually have a comfortable middle class life even while working labor in say a factory. Now the only way that is possible is if the workers still have a decently strong union. I'd say a large number of our grandfathers or even fathers did this, but those days are pretty much gone.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Like I said, my opinion is limited to career choices, not a person's worth as a person.
I just have a lot more respect for people who choose to go after careers that make some kind of impact on society. Be it generating knowledge, improving health, doing social work etc., than people who work just to make a paycheck and get by. A career consumes at a minimum, around 1/3rd of our adult lives--better to choose one that has some worth beyond a paycheck IMO. Find something you enjoy and is worthwhile for society's progress rather than just a paycheck and providing a basic service etc.
And again, that doesn't mean people that do that aren't good people. I have plenty of friends and family that just work simple menial jobs to get by. I just don't admire them the way I do people that bust ass and spend their time trying to make a difference in their career rather than just making a paycheck. But I can admire them in other aspects for being decent people, good friends etc.
And jobs like UPS etc. do suck people into those types of careers. I worked in a UPS warehouse for awhile with a lot of other college kids as they had a good tuition program etc. Several did end up dropping out as the UPS job was a viable career option.
In terms of low stress, menial jobs that offer a good wage, good benefits and job security are definitely lower stress than some white collar career. You're working more steady hours, getting over time if you have to work more and you have a job you don't take home with you. Your nights and weekends are yours. Where as things like academic jobs, doctors, lawyers etc. are working lots of nights and weekends, stressing about work when not there, being on call during "time off" etc. That's what I was getting at.
But, as I said, those types of jobs are few and far between. For every good job like UPS or the big salaried custodian or the union utility worker etc, there are a shit ton of terrible menial jobs that pay shit wages, offer no benefits and no job security. And those are the most stressful types of career options out there for sure.
As for empathy. I have some--all jobs should pay a living wage. But over all I'm not all that empathetic a person. I'm not a raging liberal like some of the other lefties on the forum by any means. I lean to the right on labor issues for the most part, and I'm fairly judgmental about what I think ideal life/career goals should be etc. And I've freely admitted before to being pretty much an elitist intellectual and that being a big part of why I choose to work in academia--so I mainly only have to associate with other like-minded folks. So I don't take it as an insult at all when that label gets thrown at me. Like I said, I now plenty of non-intellectuals I respect as good people. I just don't admire them or enjoy conversations with them the way I do with other intellectual types who's lives aren't purely oriented toward making money, raising a family and having fun.[/QUOTE]
Refresh my memory: are you a rehabilitation or a punishment guy? I forget your speciality.
Also, fun and good conversation is where you find it.
[quote name='62t']Cant speak for New York but a janitor in San Francisco starts around $11/hr. A unionized Janitor makes $13.75/hr. Maintenance makes $15.85/hr[/QUOTE]
Which is probably more accurate with the median income for that position across the country.
[quote name='Clak']To be fair, it used to be that someone could actually have a comfortable middle class life even while working labor in say a factory. Now the only way that is possible is if the workers still have a decently strong union. I'd say a large number of our grandfathers or even fathers did this, but those days are pretty much gone.[/QUOTE]
YES. THIS.
I just have a lot more respect for people who choose to go after careers that make some kind of impact on society. Be it generating knowledge, improving health, doing social work etc., than people who work just to make a paycheck and get by. A career consumes at a minimum, around 1/3rd of our adult lives--better to choose one that has some worth beyond a paycheck IMO. Find something you enjoy and is worthwhile for society's progress rather than just a paycheck and providing a basic service etc.
And again, that doesn't mean people that do that aren't good people. I have plenty of friends and family that just work simple menial jobs to get by. I just don't admire them the way I do people that bust ass and spend their time trying to make a difference in their career rather than just making a paycheck. But I can admire them in other aspects for being decent people, good friends etc.
And jobs like UPS etc. do suck people into those types of careers. I worked in a UPS warehouse for awhile with a lot of other college kids as they had a good tuition program etc. Several did end up dropping out as the UPS job was a viable career option.
In terms of low stress, menial jobs that offer a good wage, good benefits and job security are definitely lower stress than some white collar career. You're working more steady hours, getting over time if you have to work more and you have a job you don't take home with you. Your nights and weekends are yours. Where as things like academic jobs, doctors, lawyers etc. are working lots of nights and weekends, stressing about work when not there, being on call during "time off" etc. That's what I was getting at.
But, as I said, those types of jobs are few and far between. For every good job like UPS or the big salaried custodian or the union utility worker etc, there are a shit ton of terrible menial jobs that pay shit wages, offer no benefits and no job security. And those are the most stressful types of career options out there for sure.
As for empathy. I have some--all jobs should pay a living wage. But over all I'm not all that empathetic a person. I'm not a raging liberal like some of the other lefties on the forum by any means. I lean to the right on labor issues for the most part, and I'm fairly judgmental about what I think ideal life/career goals should be etc. And I've freely admitted before to being pretty much an elitist intellectual and that being a big part of why I choose to work in academia--so I mainly only have to associate with other like-minded folks. So I don't take it as an insult at all when that label gets thrown at me.
Like I said, I now plenty of non-intellectuals I respect as good people. I just don't admire them or enjoy conversations with them the way I do with other intellectual types who's lives aren't purely oriented toward making money, raising a family and having fun.[/QUOTE]Refresh my memory: are you a rehabilitation or a punishment guy? I forget your speciality.
Also, fun and good conversation is where you find it.
[quote name='62t']Cant speak for New York but a janitor in San Francisco starts around $11/hr. A unionized Janitor makes $13.75/hr. Maintenance makes $15.85/hr[/QUOTE]
Which is probably more accurate with the median income for that position across the country.
[quote name='Clak']To be fair, it used to be that someone could actually have a comfortable middle class life even while working labor in say a factory. Now the only way that is possible is if the workers still have a decently strong union. I'd say a large number of our grandfathers or even fathers did this, but those days are pretty much gone.[/QUOTE]
YES. THIS.
[quote name='dohdough']Refresh my memory: are you a rehabilitation or a punishment guy? I forget your speciality.[/QUOTE]
Neither really as I don't study corrections or sentencing. Policing is my main area, with a focus on crime prevention (i.e. which tactics are most effective in preventing crime) and with a secondary focus on looking for potential negative impacts of police tactics on the community.
I also do some non-policing work on fear of crime, and a little criminological theory stuff.
When it comes to corrections/sentencing, I'm more of a rehabilitation guy in any case. Retribution and deterrence are valid and necessary goals of punishments. But as the vast majority of law breakers aren't getting life sentences, rehabilitation should be the main goal of punishment IMO.
Neither really as I don't study corrections or sentencing. Policing is my main area, with a focus on crime prevention (i.e. which tactics are most effective in preventing crime) and with a secondary focus on looking for potential negative impacts of police tactics on the community.
I also do some non-policing work on fear of crime, and a little criminological theory stuff.
When it comes to corrections/sentencing, I'm more of a rehabilitation guy in any case. Retribution and deterrence are valid and necessary goals of punishments. But as the vast majority of law breakers aren't getting life sentences, rehabilitation should be the main goal of punishment IMO.
[quote name='Clak']To be fair, it used to be that someone could actually have a comfortable middle class life even while working labor in say a factory. Now the only way that is possible is if the workers still have a decently strong union. I'd say a large number of our grandfathers or even fathers did this, but those days are pretty much gone.[/QUOTE]
Weird. Toyota is non-union and their employees do *very* well.
Weird. Toyota is non-union and their employees do *very* well.
I always hear things like "100K isn't that much in NYC" (in fact, someone said it in this thread), so I looked up some starting salaries. Engineers (mechanical, electrical, chemical) start, on average, in the low to mid 70's.
So, a real entry-level engineer (you know, the kind that went to college for at least 4 years, has actual engineering skills, and probably has some student loans to pay off) makes less than an entry-level NYC public schools custodian. And, the real engineer won't get overtime pay.
According to salary.com, janitors, on average, start around 30K in NYC.
So, a real entry-level engineer (you know, the kind that went to college for at least 4 years, has actual engineering skills, and probably has some student loans to pay off) makes less than an entry-level NYC public schools custodian. And, the real engineer won't get overtime pay.
According to salary.com, janitors, on average, start around 30K in NYC.
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but I thought companies are all evil and just want to hoard monies.
bread's done