I should have been a custodian

There are exceptions to every rule. And note that Toyota isn't an American company....

The American automakers used to slave drive their employees, then got unionized and got stuck paying more in wages and benefits than the Japanese makers, while selling fewer cars as the market shifted from SUVs.
 
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[quote name='UncleBob']Weird. Toyota is non-union and their employees do *very* well.[/QUOTE]
You understand the whole exception/rule thing, right?


Since we're throwing random shit out there, I've never met a Wal-Mart employee who was happy with their job, aside from you at least.
 
And btw, I wrote my reply before even reading mauls, so don't go thinking it's lib groupthink.
 
[quote name='chiwii']I always hear things like "100K isn't that much in NYC" (in fact, someone said it in this thread), so I looked up some starting salaries. Engineers (mechanical, electrical, chemical) start, on average, in the low to mid 70's.

So, a real entry-level engineer (you know, the kind that went to college for at least 4 years, has actual engineering skills, and probably has some student loans to pay off) makes less than an entry-level NYC public schools custodian. And, the real engineer won't get overtime pay.

According to salary.com, janitors, on average, start around 30K in NYC.[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean that 100K isn't a lot for a janitor to make. I meant that making 100K in Manhattan doesn't come close to making 100K in middle America.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']but I thought companies are all evil and just want to hoard monies.[/QUOTE]

Oh look, the resident partisan hack said something partisan and hacky.
 
[quote name='Clak']To be fair, it used to be that someone could actually have a comfortable middle class life even while working labor in say a factory. Now the only way that is possible is if the workers still have a decently strong union. I'd say a large number of our grandfathers or even fathers did this, but those days are pretty much gone.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='UncleBob']Weird. Toyota is non-union and their employees do *very* well.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Clak']You understand the whole exception/rule thing, right?[/QUOTE]

You understand what the word "only" means, right?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']You understand what the word "only" means, right?[/QUOTE]

Do you spend your freetime translating cag posts into symbolic logic?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']You understand what the word "only" means, right?[/QUOTE]
Oh you caught me bob.:roll:

I can understand how you ended up at Wal-Mart, because any job that requires any real critical thinking skills would be so over your head you'd need a high-powered telescope to find it.
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh you caught me bob.:roll:

I can understand how you ended up at Wal-Mart, because any job that requires any real critical thinking skills would be so over your head you'd need a high-powered telescope to find it.[/QUOTE]

I get it. You make a really stupid, false statement - I point it out and, instead of admitting your statement was full of it, you instead choose to attack me personally. Stay classy.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I get it. You make a really stupid, false statement - I point it out and, instead of admitting your statement was full of it, you instead choose to attack me personally. Stay classy.[/QUOTE]

Settle down
 
It wasn't a stupid statement. Exaggeration? Fine I'll concede that, would you feel better if I went back edited it to read "now about the only way...."? Would that tiny little difference make your ass less sore?

bob it's simply this, if all you've got is me slightly exaggerating, you don't have much, son.
 
I just have a lot more respect for people who choose to go after careers that make some kind of impact on society.
Click to expand...
So if you were president/dictator, the people working at frivolous jobs like Wal*Mart, Burger King and game testers would be liquidated, and people like me and you who work in a medical device company and generate knowledge in the knowledge factory would be spared?
 
What kind of strawman is that? I already said I respect such people on their own merits and for performing needed services for society etc.

I just don't have the same admiration for them as I do for those who really apply themselves in some meaningful way in their careers to try to move society forward in some way. I have more admiration for people who try to make a difference, than those who just work for a paycheck. Nothing more, nothing less.

It doesn't mean I view people in certain careers as useless or needing "liquidated" etc. They're just not role models deserving of admiration--at least in their careers. They may be great parents, volunteer and do other things worthy of admiration for sure.

But we spend at least a 1/3rd of hour adult lives (increasingly 50+ years) laboring on our careers, so people should strive to do something meaningful with that time IMO. And not make poor life decisions that block them out of such careers, or not even try as they're lazy and just want to work as little as possible to get by etc.
 
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[quote name='2DMention']So if you were president/dictator, the people working at frivolous jobs like Wal*Mart, Burger King and game testers would be liquidated, and people like me and you who work in a medical device company and generate knowledge in the knowledge factory would be spared?[/QUOTE]

Bizzare post.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']What kind of strawman is that? I already said I respect such people on their own merits and for performing needed services for society etc.

I just don't have the same admiration for them as I do for those who really apply themselves in some meaningful way in their careers to try to move society forward in some way. I have more admiration for people who try to make a difference, than those who just work for a paycheck. Nothing more, nothing less.

It doesn't mean I view people in certain careers as useless or needing "liquidated" etc. They're just not role models deserving of admiration--at least in their careers. They may be great parents, volunteer and do other things worthy of admiration for sure.

But we spend at least a 1/3rd of hour adult lives (increasingly 50+ years) laboring on our careers, so people should strive to do something meaningful with that time IMO. And not make poor life decisions that block them out of such careers, or not even try as they're lazy and just want to work as little as possible to get by etc.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone needs to be an academic and not everyone starts on equal footing that would allow them to be. Poor life decisions is close to the bottom of that list of things that prevent people from reaching their "potential." New knowledge is important, but if all you're reaching is other academics, then it's useless if it can't be interpreted and applied in a meaningful way. As someone that teaches criminal justice, you know how fucked the system is and instead of changing it to make it better right now, you do some mental masturbation and let others do it in a piss poor way. Knowledge is useless without activism and activism doesn't exist without knowledge. To say that creating knowledge should be zenith because you're the one that "creates" it is pure arrogance. It's never as simple as saying that people make shitty decisions so they suck. Someone in academia should know that theory is difficult, if not almost impossible, to practice.

Your privilege is showing, homie. I'm even going as far to say white privilege, but I could be wrong on that point.

edit: I'm not sure what 2d said was implied anywhere on the thread, but meh...
 
Sure, some people have a ton of obstacles in front of them. Which is why I'm very liberal when it comes to social programming targeted at the lower class etc. Be it programs to improve parenting, fight crime and improve education etc. Those of us who are well off have an obligation to help the less fortunate better themselves. Hence why I strongly support raising taxes on the middle and upper classes etc.

But at the same time, I've seen plenty of people I grew up with fuck up their lives from nothing more than poor decisions. Knocking someone up (or getting knocked up) at an early age. Partying too much and flunking out of college. Drug and alcohol abuse. And so on. It's not just people with huge disadvantage failing. Just as many people piss away their lives on their own.

And I've hardly said that only academic careers are valuable. There are many other careers that contribute more to society than academics. Everything from public school teachers to social workers to policemen to doctors and so on. All I'm saying is everyone should strive to do everything in their power to get some kind of career that makes some kind of difference, and not end up stuck working in retail, or menial manual labor etc. Those jobs need done for sure, but no one should be content to go after those kind of jobs.

Too many people I knew in high school just never gave a shit about doing anything with their lives, didn't bother trying to get decent grades etc. and still live in the same shitty small town we grew up in moving from one crappy near minimum wage job to another. And it's not for lack of ability etc. It was from just having a "who gives a shit attitude" in some cases, and making poor life decisions in others. It just rubs me the wrong way. It's 1/3rd or more of our adult lives, find a career that has some meaning.

As for my privilege, sure I grew up in a white lower-middle class family (dad had a blue collar job, mom was a housewife). So I was much better off than many. But I was hardly born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I put myself through college and grad school with scholarships/assistantships and $55K or so of student loan debt because I cared and wanted to do something with my life.

As for the research thing, I agree a lot of it is of limited utility. Some of my work is definitely purely academic stuff that's of little interest to non-academics. But I focus more on doing field work with police and working actively to promote evidence-based policing and so on. Activism has to lie with others though. I don't feel it's the place of professors (or scientists) in general to do activism.

I'll work with individual police agencies and police leaders to try to affect changes in their departments, but it's not my place to go out and lobby like an activist. As a scientist I have to remain neutral and objective. The data show, what the data show. The most I'll lobby for is for criminal justice leaders to start paying heed to the evidence and using the knowledge we have to shape best practices in the field. And I do that through my work with police agencies, through publications aimed at practitioners and so on. It's up to non-scientists to do the activist work. Even more so with professor's in Wisconsin having their e-mails seized in FOIA requests to see if they were doing political work during the union stand off etc.

As for arrogance, I've pleaded guilty to that before. My biggest character flaw is definitely that I'm quite arrogant and vain. I've mellowed on it some as I've gotten older, but I doubt I'll ever totally shed that flaw.
 
It sounds like we're roughly the same age, so excuse me if I don't shed a tear for you "hardly being born with a silver spoon in your mouth" while being raised by a single-earner household. You sound like you should be smart enough to realize how rare that is. Not to mention that $55k is pretty low to go from BA/BS to Ph.D.

I also strongly disagree that academics can't be activists/practitioners. I've had this conversation many times with friends on your end of things. There Are people that do it. And yes, it comes with risk, but isn't that the point?

That thing about Wisconsin is interesting. They should know better than to use work email and workstations to organize.:D
 
[quote name='dohdough']It sounds like we're roughly the same age, so excuse me if I don't shed a tear for you "hardly being born with a silver spoon in your mouth" while being raised by a single-earner household. You sound like you should be smart enough to realize how rare that is. Not to mention that $55k is pretty low to go from BA/BS to Ph.D.

I also strongly disagree that academics can't be activists/practitioners. I've had this conversation many times with friends on your end of things. There Are people that do it. And yes, it comes with risk, but isn't that the point?

That thing about Wisconsin is interesting. They should know better than to use work email and workstations to organize.:D[/QUOTE]

You sound like you have a huge chip on your shoulder. What's really bugging you?
 
I wasn't looking for any sympathy, nor feel that I deserve any as things weren't hard for me by any stretch. Just saying I wasn't one of those kids who's parents paid for everything through advanced degrees etc.

The debt I have is honestly on they high end for a social science Ph D (based on my class mates etc.) as unlike things like med school and law school, most students are getting a full ride and stipend to go to school. I didn't get funding for my first year of my masters, and that was a big chunk of my loans to pay tuition an living expenses ($18,500 that year alone). And I had another few years where I took out loans I probably shouldn't have to avoid having to live with a roommate after splitting with my girlfriend at the time, as the stipends weren't near enough to pay rent on a 1 bedroom place in the city I went to school. In hindsight I should have given in and lived with roommates sooner than I did, and I could have at least $15-20K less in loans. But c'est le vie. That was my bad life decision! And still not whining or wanting sympathy as I really don't mind the loans as the payment is manageable.

As for activism--it's not a risk you should take before tenure IMO. And honestly, it's just not my style. I'm not a very politically motivated person, so I'll never be an activist. I'll always be a scientist doing my work--including a lot of field work with practitioners--and leave the activist work to others who are more motivated to do that kind of thing. I'm not passionate enough about the field to put in any personal activism on top of the 50-60+ hours a week I put into teaching and research already.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Sure, some people have a ton of obstacles in front of them. Which is why I'm very liberal when it comes to social programming targeted at the lower class etc. Be it programs to improve parenting, fight crime and improve education etc. Those of us who are well off have an obligation to help the less fortunate better themselves. Hence why I strongly support raising taxes on the middle and upper classes etc.

But at the same time, I've seen plenty of people I grew up with fuck up their lives from nothing more than poor decisions. Knocking someone up (or getting knocked up) at an early age. Partying too much and flunking out of college. Drug and alcohol abuse. And so on. It's not just people with huge disadvantage failing. Just as many people piss away their lives on their own.

And I've hardly said that only academic careers are valuable. There are many other careers that contribute more to society than academics. Everything from public school teachers to social workers to policemen to doctors and so on. All I'm saying is everyone should strive to do everything in their power to get some kind of career that makes some kind of difference, and not end up stuck working in retail, or menial manual labor etc. Those jobs need done for sure, but no one should be content to go after those kind of jobs.

Too many people I knew in high school just never gave a shit about doing anything with their lives, didn't bother trying to get decent grades etc. and still live in the same shitty small town we grew up in moving from one crappy near minimum wage job to another. And it's not for lack of ability etc. It was from just having a "who gives a shit attitude" in some cases, and making poor life decisions in others. It just rubs me the wrong way. It's 1/3rd or more of our adult lives, find a career that has some meaning.

As for my privilege, sure I grew up in a white lower-middle class family (dad had a blue collar job, mom was a housewife). So I was much better off than many. But I was hardly born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I put myself through college and grad school with scholarships/assistantships and $55K or so of student loan debt because I cared and wanted to do something with my life.

As for the research thing, I agree a lot of it is of limited utility. Some of my work is definitely purely academic stuff that's of little interest to non-academics. But I focus more on doing field work with police and working actively to promote evidence-based policing and so on. Activism has to lie with others though. I don't feel it's the place of professors (or scientists) in general to do activism.

I'll work with individual police agencies and police leaders to try to affect changes in their departments, but it's not my place to go out and lobby like an activist. As a scientist I have to remain neutral and objective. The data show, what the data show. The most I'll lobby for is for criminal justice leaders to start paying heed to the evidence and using the knowledge we have to shape best practices in the field. And I do that through my work with police agencies, through publications aimed at practitioners and so on. It's up to non-scientists to do the activist work. Even more so with professor's in Wisconsin having their e-mails seized in FOIA requests to see if they were doing political work during the union stand off etc.

As for arrogance, I've pleaded guilty to that before. My biggest character flaw is definitely that I'm quite arrogant and vain. I've mellowed on it some as I've gotten older, but I doubt I'll ever totally shed that flaw.[/QUOTE]

Hey hey, another person disparaging lower classes. How unoriginal.
 
Where did I disparage the lower classes? I very clearly acknowledged that some have the deck stacked against them from birth and we need higher taxes and more social services, better public schools etc. to help improve their odds of rising up.

And I said very clearly in my prior post that my statements were only related to respect of career choices, and not people's worth as human beings etc.

I grew up in a VERY poor, rural area. My parents were both from lower class backgrounds and my dad worked hard to finally get into the blue collar, lower middle class by his late 30s, early 40s. Many of my extended family on both sides is dirt poor and on welfare etc. Some are great people, others are useless drunks etc. That's true of every social class. You can't use class to judge a person's worth as there are useless assholes of every class, and great humanitarian types of every class.

My post, as I said, was limited to just saying that we're going to spend 1/3rd or more of our adult lives slaving away at our careers, so I have more respect for people who choose a career that can make some kind of impact on society. Be that teaching, doing research, being an EMT, being a police officer, being a social worker, being a doctor or even doing skilled trades like plumbing, electricians etc.

Too many people I grew up with just didn't give a shit, or made poor life decisions, and are stuck in dead end, low-paying service industry jobs through no fault but their own. Most of their families were in the same (or often) better financial situations as mine, we went to the same schools etc.

Now others I know had a gazillion more obstacles and grew up in broken homes, abject poverty etc. And my heart does go out to those types. With all our social safety nets, we still don't do anywhere near enough to help those kinds of people overcome their terrible social conditions to have a real chance at making something of themselves and improving their lot in life. So my comments are also not aimed at those types.
 
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I have to say that I'm starting to see how hard it can be to move upward in this country. Despite trying, despite getting an education, it's still incredibly difficult. It seems so much easier, for some reason, for those born into a higher class to stay there, yet for everyone it's a fight to get there. I mean I don't hide the fact that I don't come from a wealthy family. My father has worked mostly factory jobs and my mother has mostly done house keeping at various places since I was born. the only reason I've tried so hard to do better was the promise that if I worked hard I could succeed, but that's seeming harder and harder all the time. This with the advantage of being white and male. I guesss my point is that despite working hard, it still isn't easy. The fuckup from high school and the college grad could be right beside each other in the unemployment line, so to speak.

Now part of that could be blamed on our economy at the moment, but our economy is still relatively strong.
 
I'd say a lot of it is the economy. While the stock market has bounced back, unemployment is still just under 9%, state budgets still suck so there are layoffs, pay freezes etc. for public employees and so on.

It's just a rough times in nearly every job market, and only slowly getting better.

Even with a PhD from a top program in my field, I was fortunate when I came out of grad school in 2009 (well job applications were fall 2008, for jobs starting in Aug 2009) to land a good job since it was right at the height of the recession. A few of my friends graduating with PhDs from the same program that year and since then have struggled to get jobs in research universities as so many places aren't hiring.

I was lucky that my research area fit a specific job opening. Though, and not to come across as bragging, my resume was fairly strong for someone coming out of grad school with a couple solid publications etc. which gave me a leg up on some of my classmates. Though that was a combination of hardwork and lucking out in ending up working with a great mentor in grad school that gave me lots of chances to publish and network at conferences to get my name out there before graduating.

Some other classmates with records similar (or better) than mine have generally gotten good jobs, with some at much better universities than where I am and making $10K more a year than me.

So hard work does still pay off. It's just not a sure thing by any means (and even less of one than in the past) as the job market still sucks in most fields so competition is fierce for every opening.
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']Where did I disparage the lower classes? I very clearly acknowledged that some have the deck stacked against them from birth and we need higher taxes and more social services, better public schools etc. to help improve their odds of rising up.

And I said very clearly in my prior post that my statements were only related to respect of career choices, and not people's worth as human beings etc.

I grew up in a VERY poor, rural area. My parents were both from lower class backgrounds and my dad worked hard to finally get into the blue collar, lower middle class by his late 30s, early 40s. Many of my extended family on both sides is dirt poor and on welfare etc. Some are great people, others are useless drunks etc. That's true of every social class. You can't use class to judge a person's worth as there are useless assholes of every class, and great humanitarian types of every class.

My post, as I said, was limited to just saying that we're going to spend 1/3rd or more of our adult lives slaving away at our careers, so I have more respect for people who choose a career that can make some kind of impact on society. Be that teaching, doing research, being an EMT, being a police officer, being a social worker, being a doctor or even doing skilled trades like plumbing, electricians etc.

Too many people I grew up with just didn't give a shit, or made poor life decisions, and are stuck in dead end, low-paying service industry jobs through no fault but their own. Most of their families were in the same (or often) better financial situations as mine, we went to the same schools etc.

Now others I know had a gazillion more obstacles and grew up in broken homes, abject poverty etc. And my heart does go out to those types. With all our social safety nets, we still don't do anywhere near enough to help those kinds of people overcome their terrible social conditions to have a real chance at making something of themselves and improving their lot in life. So my comments are also not aimed at those types.[/QUOTE]

I say that because you still fall back on judging based upon wither job/wages. People who work as teachers engender more respect than janitors? Oh that good you have a job, but that school teacher is better then you because she teaches teh children. It doesn't matter if she came from a family where access to education was a possibility or parents who were financially stable enough to allow the teacher to not have to work since the age of 15 or younger just to make ends meet. Yeah, your worse because your job is not up to snuff. If that is not disparagement I do not know what is.

Where you come from counts for jack. Damn I was abused as a kid, that doesn't make me any more knowledgeable about the plight of the abused. I understand your trying to hide behind your poor defense of, well I don't like A but B is okay, but that is not a decent answer in my opinion. It is based upon a fuzzy moral compass dependent only on you. Ohh your a janitor, you automatically demand less respect than a teacher who barely didn't flunk out of college, barely passed the CBEST, and relegates teaching to showing kids movies.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']I say that because you still fall back on judging based upon wither job/wages. People who work as teachers engender more respect than janitors? Oh that good you have a job, but that school teacher is better then you because she teaches teh children. It doesn't matter if she came from a family where access to education was a possibility or parents who were financially stable enough to allow the teacher to not have to work since the age of 15 or younger just to make ends meet. Yeah, your worse because your job is not up to snuff. If that is not disparagement I do not know what is.

Where you come from counts for jack. Damn I was abused as a kid, that doesn't make me any more knowledgeable about the plight of the abused. I understand your trying to hide behind your poor defense of, well I don't like A but B is okay, but that is not a decent answer in my opinion. It is based upon a fuzzy moral compass dependent only on you. Ohh your a janitor, you automatically demand less respect than a teacher who barely didn't flunk out of college, barely passed the CBEST, and relegates teaching to showing kids movies.[/QUOTE]
I have a joke for you:
What do you call the lowest ranking graduate in med school?

Doctor.*boomheadshottyURDED*

I think trying to reason with dmaul to be more empathetic and receptive to classism is a useless exercise. He already admitted that he's an arrogant elitist academic prick with no intention of changing for the better to increase solidarity. I mean shit, if he thinks that the person that cleans his office everynight deserves less respect because they aren't contributing to "new knowledge," eventhough they are by proxy, just call him an elitist arrogant academic prick and be done with it...LOLZ

dmaul: Less time doing trivial shit means more time devoted to your craft...amirite?
 
[quote name='cindersphere']I say that because you still fall back on judging based upon wither job/wages. People who work as teachers engender more respect than janitors? Oh that good you have a job, but that school teacher is better then you because she teaches teh children. It doesn't matter if she came from a family where access to education was a possibility or parents who were financially stable enough to allow the teacher to not have to work since the age of 15 or younger just to make ends meet. Yeah, your worse because your job is not up to snuff. If that is not disparagement I do not know what is. [/quote]

I've been pretty damn clear that I'm talking about what respect/admiration they deserve for their careers. Not that that determines the respect the deserve as a human being.

Like i said, there are plenty of people in every class/profession that are useless assholes and deserve no respect for being decent people.

So I'm more talking about how much respect/admiration various professions deserve, rather than individual people.

But of course there's going to be some overlap there, hence why people look up to doctors etc. and not janitors. Yet they may have good friends or family members who they love and admire as they are good people in their personal lives.

People don't live hoping their kids become custodians etc. They hope they become doctors, lawyers etc. So it's not like I'm unique in this respect issue.


[quote name='dohdough']
dmaul: Less time doing trivial shit means more time devoted to your craft...amirite?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I'm an elitist prick. And yes I should spend more time focused on my craft here in the Ivory Tower and less mingling with you riff raff on forums! :D But I need breaks to turn my brain off (and interrupt tedious work like grading papers that I've been doing all day to day) to maintain my sanity!
 
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[quote name='dmaul1114']I've been pretty damn clear that I'm talking about what respect/admiration they deserve for their careers. Not that that determines the respect the deserve as a human being.

Like i said, there are plenty of people in every class/profession that are useless assholes and deserve no respect for being decent people.

So I'm more talking about how much respect/admiration various professions deserve, rather than individual people.

But of course there's going to be some overlap there, hence why people look up to doctors etc. and not janitors. Yet they may have good friends or family members who they love and admire as they are good people in their personal lives.

People don't live hoping their kids become custodians etc. They hope they become doctors, lawyers etc. So it's not like I'm unique in this respect issue.




Yes, I'm an elitist prick. And yes I should spend more time focused on my craft here in the Ivory Tower and less mingling with you riff raff on forums! :D But I need breaks to turn my brain off (and interrupt tedious work like grading papers that I've been doing all day to day) to maintain my sanity![/QUOTE]

Most of my family just hoped their kids wouldn't grow up to be criminals or drug addicts. But different strokes or something.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'd say a lot of it is the economy. While the stock market has bounced back, unemployment is still just under 9%, state budgets still suck so there are layoffs, pay freezes etc. for public employees and so on.

It's just a rough times in nearly every job market, and only slowly getting better.

Even with a PhD from a top program in my field, I was fortunate when I came out of grad school in 2009 (well job applications were fall 2008, for jobs starting in Aug 2009) to land a good job since it was right at the height of the recession. A few of my friends graduating with PhDs from the same program that year and since then have struggled to get jobs in research universities as so many places aren't hiring.

I was lucky that my research area fit a specific job opening. Though, and not to come across as bragging, my resume was fairly strong for someone coming out of grad school with a couple solid publications etc. which gave me a leg up on some of my classmates. Though that was a combination of hardwork and lucking out in ending up working with a great mentor in grad school that gave me lots of chances to publish and network at conferences to get my name out there before graduating.

Some other classmates with records similar (or better) than mine have generally gotten good jobs, with some at much better universities than where I am and making $10K more a year than me.

So hard work does still pay off. It's just not a sure thing by any means (and even less of one than in the past) as the job market still sucks in most fields so competition is fierce for every opening.[/QUOTE]But how bad is 9% unemployment, really? Though I know that it changes depending on who's included and everything, probably higher than 9%. I mean that may be pretty bad for us, but it's way better than plenty of other places in the world.

All I know is that things are going to have to get better in the near future, or people are just going to stop trying if they feel it isn't worth it for the slim chance of a better job.
 
[quote name='Clak']But how bad is 9% unemployment, really? Though I know that it changes depending on who's included and everything, probably higher than 9%. I mean that may be pretty bad for us, but it's way better than plenty of other places in the world.

All I know is that things are going to have to get better in the near future, or people are just going to stop trying if they feel it isn't worth it for the slim chance of a better job.[/QUOTE]

Remember the 9% is aggregate. HS only grads rank at about 15 percent unemployment, higher for non grads. 4 year degree holders unemployment had the whopping rise of 1 percent since the economic downturn and is now at 5 percent.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Most of my family just hoped their kids wouldn't grow up to be criminals or drug addicts. But different strokes or something.[/QUOTE]

Well sure more immediate pressing concerns like that take some precedent.

But even most inner city parents hope their kids go to college and get good jobs and lead better lives than they did.

I teach at an urban school, and see that first hand in the pride parents have for their kids graduating--many of whom are from rough areas, grew up in single mother homes, and are the first to graduate from college in their family etc.

Pretty much all parents who give a damn want their kids to have much better lives than they did.


[quote name='Clak']But how bad is 9% unemployment, really? Though I know that it changes depending on who's included and everything, probably higher than 9%. I mean that may be pretty bad for us, but it's way better than plenty of other places in the world.

All I know is that things are going to have to get better in the near future, or people are just going to stop trying if they feel it isn't worth it for the slim chance of a better job.[/QUOTE]

9% is still high for the US. And as you note it's a flawed measure as it doesn't included those who have given up trying to find a job, nor those who are working part time but need a full time job etc.

But yes, things need to get better. They are slowly improving, but it is improving.

Though it is important to note that the American dream has largely always been a pipe dream. It's true that most who get educations and/or work hard can at least have a solid, lower middle class lifestyle at worst.

But the American dream puts to much emphasis on wealth and luxury, and education and hardwork don't ensure those things at all. Those, for those not born into such families, tend to take a mix of hard work and luck. Luck in going into the right career at the right time. Luck in knowing the right people etc.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Remember the 9% is aggregate. HS only grads rank at about 15 percent unemployment, higher for non grads. 4 year degree holders unemployment had the whopping rise of 1 percent since the economic downturn and is now at 5 percent.[/QUOTE]

Yep, here's the numbers in March 2011 for unemployment rate by educational attainment.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

High School Dropouts: 15.2%
High School Diploma: 10.5%
Some College/2 year degree: 7.7%
College Degree: 4.3%

So while many say a college degree is becoming worthless, the numbers show otherwise. It's not a guarantee of a job, but your odds of being employed are quite a bit higher if you have degree.

And salaries are higher, as shown in the graph below (data is from 2009)

ep_chart_001.JPG
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep, here's the numbers in March 2011 for unemployment rate by educational attainment.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

High School Dropouts: 15.2%
High School Diploma: 10.5%
Some College/2 year degree: 7.7%
College Degree: 4.3%

So while many say a college degree is becoming worthless, the numbers show otherwise. It's not a guarantee of a job, but your odds of being employed are quite a bit higher if you have degree.

And salaries are higher, as shown in the graph below (data is from 2009)

ep_chart_001.JPG
[/QUOTE]

I think Vietnam proved education increases wages no matter what. But it seems like some of my stats were wrong. Thanks for posting that so I don't continue to make false statement.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Remember the 9% is aggregate. HS only grads rank at about 15 percent unemployment, higher for non grads. 4 year degree holders unemployment had the whopping rise of 1 percent since the economic downturn and is now at 5 percent.[/QUOTE]
I wish they could pull figures for unemployment in specific career fields. Like for instance, what is employment like among IT professionals. Because I have to say, I've been trying for over a year to find work, and I've only been able to get a temp job with the possibility of being hired full time. Considering that employers have more choice these days, I'm not holding my breathe.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep, here's the numbers in March 2011 for unemployment rate by educational attainment.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

High School Dropouts: 15.2%
High School Diploma: 10.5%
Some College/2 year degree: 7.7%
College Degree: 4.3%

So while many say a college degree is becoming worthless, the numbers show otherwise. It's not a guarantee of a job, but your odds of being employed are quite a bit higher if you have degree.

And salaries are higher, as shown in the graph below (data is from 2009)

ep_chart_001.JPG
[/QUOTE]
What exactly do they consider a professional degree? I've heard that term used some before, but have never known wat it included.
 
[quote name='Clak']I wish they could pull figures for unemployment in specific career fields. Like for instance, what is employment like among IT professionals. Because I have to say, I've been trying for over a year to find work, and I've only been able to get a temp job with the possibility of being hired full time. Considering that employers have more choice these days, I'm not holding my breathe.[/QUOTE]

You might be able to find some of that type of occupation specific info here:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/home.htm

There's a lot there and I don't have the patience to dig through it at the moment. Though at a glance it seems like the data lags behind a couple years (the few tables I found were 2009 data).


That said, IT is going to be a tough field. That hits on my earlier point of a lot of success being luck in getting in the right field at the right time.

IT was a hot field a few years ago, but has gotten tough as so many people went and got computer science degrees, certifications in trade schools etc.

So unfortunately for you, I'd guess unemployment will be slower to improve in that field than in some others. I doubt it will get much better until we see another boom in new businesses opening and existing ones expanding, and thus creating new IT positions along with everything else.
 
[quote name='Clak']What exactly do they consider a professional degree? I've heard that term used some before, but have never known wat it included.[/QUOTE]

I'm actually not sure either. I don't think it can be things like law school and med school, as those salaries are higher than Ph Ds, so those must be included in the doctoral category.

Maybe includes things like MBAs rather than lumping those in the Master's degree category?

I'll take a quick look and see if I can find an explanation on the site.

Edit: Well, I stand corrected. "A doctoral degree (such as a Ph.D.) or a first professional degree (such as a medical or law degree)."

I find it hard to believe that doctoral degrees earn more on average than doctors and lawyers, but I guess that's what the data show.
 
Yeah, I keep hearing about all the baby boomers retiring and stuff opening up, but I'm just not seeing it. Either they aren't retiring, or they are and businesses simply aren't replacing them.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm actually not sure either. I don't think it can be things like law school and med school, as those salaries are higher than Ph Ds, so those must be included in the doctoral category.

Maybe includes things like MBAs rather than lumping those in the Master's degree category?

I'll take a quick look and see if I can find an explanation on the site.[/QUOTE]
May be degrees like MBAs, I have seen them sometimes included separately from other master's degrees for some reason.
 
[quote name='Clak']May be degrees like MBAs, I have seen them sometimes included separately from other master's degrees for some reason.[/QUOTE]

I edited my post above. It's things like medical and law degrees. I find that hard to believe, but I guess that's what the data show.
 
[quote name='Clak']Yeah, I keep hearing about all the baby boomers retiring and stuff opening up, but I'm just not seeing it. Either they aren't retiring, or they are and businesses simply aren't replacing them.[/QUOTE]

Also, how many baby boomer aged people are in IT anyway? I mean you're talking people born from what 1945-1960 or so in that generation (if even extending that long).

Most IT folk are probably in the 20-40 range, while baby boomers are their parent's who are less likely to be tech savvy enough to have IT jobs.
 
Not really, I mean IT had to start somewhere. It's certainly changed over the years, but there are plenty of 50-60 year olds who could go on about programming in fortran and running the punch cards through the computer. I mean Bill Gates in his 50s now I think, so they're out there.
 
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True. I was thinking more of the IT people at the universities I've been at who just maintain the network etc. So I wasn't thinking so much of programmers and software engineers etc.

But still I wouldn't think there would be all that many retirement age people still in the entry to mid-level type jobs I assume you're after (guessing that you're in your 20s like most in here).

So it would be upper mid management and above retiring and having to be replaced, and some of those replacements would be promotions and open up lower-level positions I suppose. But that's still probably not a huge number of jobs are small to mid-sized business with small IT departments of just a couple people to begin with.
 
Exactly. It is that simple. I think I poorly worded some posts and made it sound more like I was judging people than simply stating some professions garner more respect than others, which stirred up some ire.

I tried to be clear that wasn't what I was saying, but could have been more clear I suppose.

But in any case, yes, some profession are held in more esteem by a majority of society than others. Few if any parents want their kids to grow of up be janitors or other menial jobs. While you'll find few parents who'd be disappointed that their kids chose to become teachers or doctors or lawyers or dentists and so forth. That's one simple way to explain it.

And at the end of the day, it does also reflect how a person is viewed by others. There's a reason why "What do you do for a living?" is such a common question asked when meeting new people. We live in a very career-oriented society, so one's occupation does 100% play a large rule in how much respect one is given by others. Especially in terms of first impressions where people can't judge you on your personal qualities.
 
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[quote name='camoor']Yes. It really is that simple.[/QUOTE]
Poorly worded on argued on my part. I was mostly trying to bring attention to judgements being based on current job status.You may think that is okay, but my point wasn't necessarily that.

After all in all honesty I usually equate IT departments to Janitors.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'll say it again. 100K is not a lot in Manhattan. Not only do they have high state and federal taxes, but the city of New York has an income tax as well. Owning a car is damn near impossible because of the cost to park and insure it.

If a custodian was making 50K in Indiana, would you have a problem with it? With cost of living factored in, it's equivalent to making around 100K in Manhattan.[/QUOTE]

Then you move your ass out to the island, upstate or Jersey and commute like everyone else. I'm pro union and have no problem with a custodian making 100,000 when people who contribute nothing make more. 100,000 is still a lot no matter where you live.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']

After all in all honesty I usually equate IT departments to Janitors.[/QUOTE]
We sometimes aren't treated much better....:roll:
 
what does a janitor contribute that food service/assembly line/astronaut/sitcom writer doesn't?
 
[quote name='cindersphere']Poorly worded on argued on my part. I was mostly trying to bring attention to judgements being based on current job status.You may think that is okay, but my point wasn't necessarily that.

After all in all honesty I usually equate IT departments to Janitors.[/QUOTE]

That's cute but it's way out of whack with mainstream American society.

I'm just curious, how would you define your overall political philsophy? IMO you sound like an idealistic Communist.
 
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