I'm A Minority!!

[quote name='mykevermin']One thing that you cannot deny is that racism is inherent in our society. Minorities are constantly passed over for jobs they are qualified for, they are more frequently denied rent availability or mortgages, they are also frequently turned down from colleges. If you accept that racism and discrimination exist in our society (and there is no data that shows races are treated equally, and plenty that show they are not), a corollary of discrimination *against* minorities is discrimination *for* whites. That is, two sides of the same coin are that whites benefit to the extent that minorities are kept down because of race. With that in mind, the status quo which seems to make you so livid does, in fact, serve you better because you are white.

As far as reparations are concerned, that is another argument for another time; that having been said, considering the long term possibility of upward mobility (that is, improving your socioeconomic status over subsequent generations), the society you and I live in still suffers from the effects of slavery, racism, and discrimination that happened in the past. If that is not the case, then I will challenge you: show me the precise point in time where racial differences in employment levels, imprisonment levels, education levels, annual income, wealth (*not* the same thing as income), marriage rates, and within-business promotions have been equal. If there has been a point in time that minorities and whites have been roughly equal on these measures (and doubtless dozens of others), and that equality has decreased over time, then you can attribute that to something other than long-lasting effects of race-based policy (slavery and Jim Crow laws, mostly). If there has never been racial parity in these regards, then your argument holds up to nothing and is completely false in the face of all existing empirical evidence (which, I can assure you, it does).[/QUOTE]

Does having whites turned down because of their race for a black person less qualified matter to anyone? It's the same concept is it not? I am not racist, nor has anyone implied that I am, but I am just stating it so no gets the wrong idea. I also would think its wrong if a black person was turned down for a job for a white person less qualified.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']Does having whites turned down because of their race for a black person less qualified matter to anyone? It's the same concept is it not? I am not racist, nor has anyone implied that I am, but I am just stating it so no gets the wrong idea. I also would think its wrong if a black person was turned down for a job for a white person less qualified.[/QUOTE]
That's where you are wrong about how affirmative action policies work; that's also not the issue of contention here.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']Does having whites turned down because of their race for a black person less qualified matter to anyone? It's the same concept is it not? I am not racist, nor has anyone implied that I am, but I am just stating it so no gets the wrong idea. I also would think its wrong if a black person was turned down for a job for a white person less qualified.[/QUOTE]

Yes, that is also called discrimination, but people like mykevermin believe it's for the greater good to keep whitey down until the black man gets his due, proportionally speaking, that is.
 
a/action helps combat nepitism and discrimination. If policies like a/action didnt exist what are the chances that minorities would have the opportunity to break into positions of power predominately held by whites.
 
[quote name='alucard8319']a/action helps combat nepitism and discrimination. If policies like a/action didnt exist what are the chances that minorities would have the opportunity to break into positions of power predominately held by whites.[/QUOTE]

Maybe with hardwork and determination really boosts someone's chances.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Yes, that is also called discrimination, but people like mykevermin believe it's for the greater good to keep whitey down until the black man gets his due, proportionally speaking, that is.[/QUOTE]

People like mykevermin can cite data that show black males with no criminal record receive LESS job offers than white males with felony convictions on their record. AA is not the most perfect remedy, but as I've said (and as you've never capably retorted to), the status quo discriminates in favor of whites; affirmative action offers employment opportunities to *adequately qualified minorities*. Neither you nor anybody else has offered an adequate solution to disparity; until you can do so, an imperfect solution is all we have.

On the other hand, people like bmulligan support racism, so long as the government does nothing to tie the hands of business owners.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']People like mykevermin can cite data that show black males with no criminal record receive LESS job offers than white males with felony convictions on their record. AA is not the most perfect remedy, but as I've said (and as you've never capably retorted to), the status quo discriminates in favor of whites; affirmative action offers employment opportunities to *adequately qualified minorities*. Neither you nor anybody else has offered an adequate solution to disparity; until you can do so, an imperfect solution is all we have.

On the other hand, people like bmulligan support racism, so long as the government does nothing to tie the hands of business owners.[/QUOTE]

I honestly think offering incentives to employers would be a good idea.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']I honestly think offering incentives to employers would be a good idea.[/QUOTE]
Yikes, you *are* the consummate supply-sider, aren't you? ;)

While I don't agree with you, it's a valid alternative option, but one that doesn't invalidate the argument that AA replaces discrimination with discrimination. Truth be told, however, the people who make these arguments seem emboldened in the fight to prevent racial discrimination from benefitting 12% of the population; racial discrimination, as it exists in the marketplace, benefitting roughly 6 times that number of people? Nary a peep. Tsk tsk, I say.
 
I did not like Reagan's economic policies but I believe being a "supply sider" is a better alternative then our current affirmative action policies.

EDIT: I think this thread should also possibly be moved to the versus/controversy forum.
 
Having a giant Mexi-cock more than makes up for being a "minority" ;) , I only put stuff down on the college apps that really applied, like being first generation to go to college, first language being spanish, etc.
 
Go back to shining Fidel's boots commie! You're still our enemy. ;)
 
I killed your parents/grandparents in the war and now I'm here to take over your universities! muuaahahahahahaha

*shuts up*
 
[quote name='vietgurl']I killed your parents/grandparents in the war and now I'm here to take over your universities! muuaahahahahahaha

*shuts up*[/QUOTE]


to believe some folks still think we won vietnam...you're living proof we didn't! :lol:
 
[quote name='Apossum']to believe some folks still think we won vietnam...you're living proof we didn't! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Sure we won Vietnam, we killed off a whole lot of people and made areas of the country unlivable for decades to come.

And I will have the last laugh when white people become a minority and I get my pity check.
 
[quote name='vietgurl']I killed your parents/grandparents in the war and now I'm here to take over your universities! muuaahahahahahaha

*shuts up*[/QUOTE]

You're German? ;)
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Sure we won Vietnam, we killed off a whole lot of people and made areas of the country unlivable for decades to come.

And I will have the last laugh when white people become a minority and I get my pity check.[/QUOTE]

I can't wait either...I am so excited (joking) :)

Affirmative Action is only good when you benefit!
 
Does having whites turned down because of their race for a black person less qualified matter to anyone? It's the same concept is it not? I am not racist, nor has anyone implied that I am, but I am just stating it so no gets the wrong idea. I also would think its wrong if a black person was turned down for a job for a white person less qualified
Click to expand...

Its an attempt to make up for the difference in environment (which effects peoples success) and for the discrimination. Essentially, since there is discrimination in hiring and other things (meaning minorities get passed over), affirmative action helps to counter that (though not entirely). So, if you want to use the term discrimination, both get discriminated against in different places for different reasons.

You really should research the slave trade more. In no way am I saying its right or that white people didn't play a part in it, but Africans treated it like a business. Africans were selling their fellow Africans to the slave traders to be taken to other parts of the world.
Click to expand...

They exploited a "resource" though. The slave industry was longstanding and slaves had been exchanged heavily with the middle east before. But slavery was a byproduct of wars and such. By arming those who provided slaves, by giving slavery such a huge market and level of profit we screwed everything up. It got to the point where tribes warred just for slaves in some cases. Essentially, we took advantage of the ruthless and corrupt and the majority suffered. And, since slavery was already a practice (in one form or another) virtually everywhere, it was not a new concept.

We also treated slaves worse and viewed them differently (mainly due to their race) than africans viewed their slaves.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']Not to be picky but I never used the word discrimination...if it really matters.[/QUOTE]

Oh, others were so thats probably why I was thinking of it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']People like mykevermin can cite data that show black males with no criminal record receive LESS job offers than white males with felony convictions on their record. AA is not the most perfect remedy, but as I've said (and as you've never capably retorted to), the status quo discriminates in favor of whites; affirmative action offers employment opportunities to *adequately qualified minorities*. Neither you nor anybody else has offered an adequate solution to disparity; until you can do so, an imperfect solution is all we have.

On the other hand, people like bmulligan support racism, so long as the government does nothing to tie the hands of business owners.[/QUOTE]

Sorry myke, people like you are the one's supporting racism. Regardless of who is getting an unfair advantage due to individual choice, having any government eliminate individual choice in favor of an institutionalized racist policy is not a principle I care to support, or condsider fair to anyone.
 
mulligan, whats the benefit though? Minorities are discriminated against even today, why not at least attempt to level the playing field? If you don't believe there is discrimination then there is no need and I can agree with you (well, at least if I accept the no racism part), but if you think there is then why not try to limit its impace or even it out? Isn't it better to strike a balance that creates a better end result overall than to just follow ideals that make things worse or, at best, go nowhere?

Affirmative action is a necessary evil in my mind. Not desirable, but the alternative is worse.
 
I think the question you need to ask him is if he has a better alternative. Or if he even believes racism exists at all. Nonetheless, I don't think a/a is fair or even the best alternative.
 
I believe the idea that in AA, a minority less qualified will get a position passed over by a more qualified white, is wrong. There may be a few examples of such, but all in all, it does not happen that way. AA is used against comparable applicants and if the environment is predominately white then race may come into play to give a little more balance to the system.

Too many times have I heard somebody complain that they didn't get into somewhere because a black person was given their position based on race. And in all honesty, I know for a fact that these folks that I heard complaining didn't get the position because they just did not qualify as well as they thought they did.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']I believe the cutoff is 1/8 native american, you just missed the cut :lol:[/QUOTE]

*throws buffalo skin vest in the trash* :/

Speaking of... has anyone ever seen the indie film "PowWow Highway"? fucking. Incredible.
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']I hate how my country supports racism. You would think we'd have matured past that type of stupidity, but no.[/QUOTE]

The alternative is to just let it occur on a larger scale, where everyone is free to higher or not higher based on race, religion etc.
 
I'm not saying that a less qualified minority should get a job over anyone that's more qualified. I'm saying that if 2 people are nearly the same, why not pick the minority? Also, with the slave trade, yes, black people were enslaved by their own people. But after a black was sold to the european/colonial people, did they have to be crammed on a ship like cattle? Did they have to be whipped if they didn't meet quotas? Did it have to be a crime to teach black people to read? Also, when you say that none of my direct ancestors were slaves you're only partially correct. My grandfather lived under Jim Crow and black people were treated worse then when they were slaves.

For the record, I've never used my minority status to get into school. I'm only half black and I check the "other" box on most of the paperwork. I joined the military right after high school and noticed that the majority of people in the armed forces are minorities of some type. Ask anyone why they join the military and they say "To pay for school". What does this tell us? A good portion of non-white America doesn't have the means to skate through 4 years of school. Now as this is a site for cheap ass gamer, I don't think any of the white people here actually had mommy and daddy pay for school, but there is a much greater amount of white people who skate through life and then get pissed when they get passed over for a minority candidate. Now some people might say they're more qualified because they went to Harvard, Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc. or they had a 4.0 GPA. But what about a black woman who worked her way through school while raising a kid and still gets a 3.5? Or a hispanic guy that joins the military and goes to school at night while loading jumbo jets with cargo for the war during the day? What is the definition of qualified anyway? Doesn't the employer get to decide this? Now, I admit there are sometimes an employer goes too far and hires an unqualified person in the name of diversity. This is the employer's decision however and there's a chance that the person will become an invaluable asset to the company. I rambled too much. What do you guys think?
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The alternative is to just let it occur on a larger scale, where everyone is free to higher or not higher based on race, religion etc.[/QUOTE]

I'm guessing you meant "hire"?
I just wanted to be sure, as the meaning is entirely different if you did mean "higher".
 
[quote name='JSweeney']I'm guessing you meant "hire"?
I just wanted to be sure, as the meaning is entirely different if you did mean "higher".[/QUOTE]

He was talking about stages of nirvana.
 
[quote name='Brak']He was talking about stages of nirvana.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. Enlightenment.
Wouldn't it be boring?
 
[quote name='JSweeney']Hmm. Enlightenment.
Wouldn't it be boring?[/QUOTE]

Sitting next to a bonsai tree on the peak of a miniature mountain top atop a small cloud seems to be the definition of "boring".
 
[quote name='Brak']Sitting next to a bonsai tree on the peak of a miniature mountain top atop a small cloud seems to be the definition of "boring".[/QUOTE]

I don't know... I would think while someone is alive it would be impossible to try to become completely enlightened... trying to understand the whole of creation and such would likely end up like that scene in "Scanners" where that one guy's head explodes.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm not saying that a less qualified minority should get a job over anyone that's more qualified. I'm saying that if 2 people are nearly the same, why not pick the minority? Also, with the slave trade, yes, black people were enslaved by their own people. But after a black was sold to the european/colonial people, did they have to be crammed on a ship like cattle? Did they have to be whipped if they didn't meet quotas? Did it have to be a crime to teach black people to read? Also, when you say that none of my direct ancestors were slaves you're only partially correct. My grandfather lived under Jim Crow and black people were treated worse then when they were slaves.

For the record, I've never used my minority status to get into school. I'm only half black and I check the "other" box on most of the paperwork. I joined the military right after high school and noticed that the majority of people in the armed forces are minorities of some type. Ask anyone why they join the military and they say "To pay for school". What does this tell us? A good portion of non-white America doesn't have the means to skate through 4 years of school. Now as this is a site for cheap ass gamer, I don't think any of the white people here actually had mommy and daddy pay for school, but there is a much greater amount of white people who skate through life and then get pissed when they get passed over for a minority candidate. Now some people might say they're more qualified because they went to Harvard, Northwestern, Stanford, Duke, etc. or they had a 4.0 GPA. But what about a black woman who worked her way through school while raising a kid and still gets a 3.5? Or a hispanic guy that joins the military and goes to school at night while loading jumbo jets with cargo for the war during the day? What is the definition of qualified anyway? Doesn't the employer get to decide this? Now, I admit there are sometimes an employer goes too far and hires an unqualified person in the name of diversity. This is the employer's decision however and there's a chance that the person will become an invaluable asset to the company. I rambled too much. What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]

Well then the problem doesn't have anything to do with their race, it has everything to do with their economic status. There are plenty of white people in poverty.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']Well then the problem doesn't have anything to do with their race, it has everything to do with their economic status. There are plenty of white people in poverty.[/QUOTE]

Economic status and race have been linked for a long time. Yes there are rich blacks, but it's no secret that the majority of the people living under the poverty line are black. In less than 50 years, no race will make up over 50% of the country, so maybe affirmative action will disappear. The problem is that even in the future white people will probably dominate higher education, finance, healthcare, and the government. These people in charge are why affirmative action is still around today.
 
Speaking as a minority & an immigrant myself, I think affirmative action has done a lot of great things over the last 20 or so years. Minorities have made great strides in equality. That said, AA needs to be replaced. Right now, it's an archaic method to socially compensate minorities for the injustices of the past. While it is true that racism is still an issue in this day & age, I think it's time to find alternatives to AA. Minorities don't live on plantations unwillingly anymore or suffer under Jim Crow laws any longer. They have been enabled to better their lives... but it's up to them to do it.

One thing that has always pissed me off about the US is the sense of entitlement - the idea that you're owed something because of the color of your skin. I came from one of the shittiest ghettos in the Philippines where many of the neighboring houses were hovels and the place stunk of rotten fish, melting rubber & tar for miles around. The main industry around the area was rubber vulcanization and you could see the backyards (such as they could even be called that) full of old tires waiting to be reconstituted. The only things my childhood friends & I had to play with were old bicycle tires and a stick I would use to keep the wheel moving. The neighborhood we moved into after emigrating to the US would be considered to be a rough area by someone living in the States but it was definitely more upscale than my previous conditions. When I came here to the US, I was grateful for the little things I've gotten - indoor plumbing, continuous electricity, a clean street to play on, cheap & plentiful food & even the simplest plastic toys that, in the islands, kids would've fought like dogs over. None of these things were for free. My parents worked hard. My mom was smart enough to get into Northwestern University in Chicago but her student loans couldn't cover a bills for a house & a husband & a child. My dad worked at a chemical plant loading/unloading chemicals despite the fact that he had a business degree & was more than qualified for office work. It would be the source of his arthritis years later. AA would've been wonderful back then. But we didn't utilize it because we didn't know it existed but still we endured without it. My parents worked so hard they were even able to pay for private schooling when public schools would've made their lives much easier. From them, I learned the value of hard work & what it accomplishes. I learned that, by working intelligently, I can increase my financial worth exponentially.

People here in the US take for granted what they have. How can more minorities let alone poor white kids get further ahead in their lives when all they see on tv is the glorification of the gangsta lifestyle or the sports star or the pop diva? My accomplishments are partly due to my parents' support & love even when they couldn't give me $$$ to buy lunch & I survived off predominantly Cup O' Noodles for a long time (from 8th grade up to & including college). It was also to due to me modeling myself after ppl who I knew were successful in their own right:

Bill Gates
Warren Buffett
Oprah Winfrey
Martha Stewart
Donald Trump
George Washington Carver
Henry Ford
Ray Kroc
Sol Price
Kerry Packer
Lowry Mays

While you could look at that & say "well, the only minorities you have in their are Oprah & Carver, the rest are all affluent Caucasians & the one famous minority you have is a media player" you'd be missing the point. They are all captains in their respective industries. Bill Gates was the one who was savvy enough to retain the rights to a lil software he & his buddies wrote called Windows & grow it into an empire. Warren Buffett is probably the only person to solely create his financial fiefdom from intelligently perceiving stock market conditions for the better over a period of 50 plus year. Oprah started out doing a talk show (and still does) but has expanded herself to include other moneymaking ventures - books, magazines, etc. not to mention her own personal stock. Martha Stewart did something similar. Donald Trump & Ray Kroc (creator of the McDonald's corporation) were real estate moguls. George Washington Carver created 101 uses for the peanut (probably best known for peanut butter) as well as developing better farming methods to help former slaves achieve self-sustainability. Henry Ford was one of the pioneers of the assembly line. Sol Price pioneered the 'warehouse shopping' method. His proteges were Jim Sinegal (CEO of Costco) & Sam Walton (of Walmart/Sam's Club fame). Recently deceased Aussie Kerry Packer (Consolidate Press Holdings) & American Lowry Mays (Clear Channel Communications) built their respective empires from consolidating various media under a single conglomerate. You can focus on the color of their skin or you can properly focus on their accomplishments. I choose to focus on their accomplishments as they offer me far more valuable insight than the significance of their skin color. All of these ppl have done something bad in their lives (be it known in public or not) yet these faults as well as their ethnicities are outshined by the great deeds they have accomplished. The only ones who dwell upon these successful ppl's skin color are those who are most likely to never move beyond their own bitterness at their lot in life and move on to accomplish great deeds. Everyone has that potential but not everyone is motivated to do so.

I think affirmative action, while it has done a lot of good, has left minorities with a mindset that they should get something just because they are a minority. If true parity amongst the ethnicities is to occur, then all forms of ethnic discrimination (even 'positive' discrimination such as AA) must be eliminated. Call me a naive idealistic fool for saying that but I don't think AA, as it is, is properly equipped to achieve balance. Right now, all it does is serve as a reminder (for both minorities as well as Caucasians) for sins of the past and breeds an environment of resentment & the disenfranchised. Instead of just giving something away, have regimens that test the skills & abilities of those who seek the same employment. If both have equal skill, give it to the one who applied earliest. If they applied at the same time, give them both a task which neither are suited for (but still within the confines of the job) & see who does the task better & give it to the one who does it the best.

Saying that someone's upbringing in a ghetto neighborhood will affect how they perform is partly a ridiculous notion. I've been there, done that and I'm just doing fine. So is one of my friends - a black guy who grew up in a bad part of Atlanta before moving to Chicago. He graduated from U. of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign & became a rich ass CPA. So is one of my childhood friends who came from a poor area from southern India. He graduated from U. of Chicago & is an entrepreneur who specializes in startups. I have another friend who is Puerto Rican who lived 6 blocks away who graduated from Purdue & is now pursuing a PhD in Physics. I grew up w/ these guys & they were able to go and accomplish great things. I admire & respect them as my friends as well as look up to them as models to follow. We all came from poor upbringings & were able to be successful in our lives but that's because we all strived to be the best. If anything, I'd say our childhood hardships made us all the more resilient to succeed because failure wasn't an option. Let's not forget that we're all part of one race - the human one. To me, the only flavor that matters is vanilla (blonde), chocolate (brunette), & strawberry (redheads).:cool:

EDIT: This really belongs in Vs.
 
[quote name='steveinneed']Actually, there are more poor white people then anyone else.[/QUOTE]
You have any stats to back up your statement?
 
The majority on welfare are white, so I would assume most poor people are whites. It's just that most americans are also white. For example, if this country consisted of 90% europeans americans who had a 15% poverty rate, and 10% african americans with a 100% poverty rate then there would still be more poor white people.

Saying that someone's upbringing in a ghetto neighborhood will affect how they perform is partly a ridiculous notion. I've been there, done that and I'm just doing fine.
Click to expand...

Statistically its anything but ridiculous. People send their kids to good schools, move to better environments, provide quality nutrition, good family home etc. to give people a better chance to succeed in life. The same works in reverse, without those things they have less of a chance. You cited a lot of individual successes which, while nice, they are the exceptions. They don't give a good picture of the overal community. There's usually both effort and luck in success. It takes more luck, and much more effort to succeed (which, in turn, is often less likely to be given since its not expected) without those things. And the people who don't succeed financially will result in poor future generations starting off with the same disadvantages.

My fathers side was dead by the time I was 18 months old, but the rest of my family I know of has 4 high school graduates, they are: me, my parents, and a cousin who graduated 4 years ago (he thought of college, but his parents didn't think it was a good idea since he wasn't good academically and they didn't want to waste the money). That's it. There are currently no college grads (my father the only one, besides me, who ever even attended college). The other 20 or 25 never even graduated high school, and only 1 would have graduated pre 1966, so it wasn't like not graduating high school didn't matter much at that time. There kids have done the same (the latest just quite last year when he was 16). I'm very close to people who were brought up around heavy drinking and some even violence. The only part of my family that is/were not like that is my immediate family and my mothers parents (my fathers were violent, not sure about drugs or alcohol).

I was in a private jr high and high school, college was a given. I was never in environments with drugs or violence (fights occured maybe once a year in high school). 100% of my high school class went to college. In my neighborhood kids leave bikes, toys etc. on the sidewalk and no one ever touches anything. The fact that environment effects how people perform in life is reflected in statistics and in my own personal experiences. There are multiple reason for programs like affirmative action, but best reason in my mind is not so much providing the extra boost to disadvantaged people who may have just been held back, but as a way to give relatively qualified people the opportunity to advance which, in turn, helps prevent future generations (ie. their children) from having to go through the same hardships. I think affirmative action should be expanded to all poor, but still focus on minorities, just not exclusively.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Statistically its anything but ridiculous. People send their kids to good schools, move to better environments, provide quality nutrition, good family home etc. to give people a better chance to succeed in life. The same works in reverse, without those things they have less of a chance. You cited a lot of individual successes which, while nice, they are the exceptions. They don't give a good picture of the overal community. There's usually both effort and luck in success. It takes more luck, and much more effort to succeed without those things. And the people who don't succeed financially will result in poor future generations starting off with the same disadvantages.[/quote]

Well, my point in that paragraph wasn't to highlight the exceptional quality of ppl that I grew up with in less than great circumstances. Rather, it was to highlight their perseverance and, as you said, effort despite those circumstances. Yeah, they were individual successes and would probably be considered exceptions. But it was only used to illustrate that with hard work, your environment can be a negligible factor in future social/financial success.

As I mentioned, minorities (and dare I say it, disenfrancised poor white kids) are bombarded by various media (MTV/E! Entertainment are some of the guilty parties) glorifying a lifestyle which most ppl, including celebrities, cannot sustain w/o intelligent planning & foresight. Even ppl like JLO had an overall strategy to make themselves successful while others are still stuck in wishful thinking mode. So many ppl are contributing $5 a week to their local lottery in hopes of making it big instead of taking that $5 & saving it in an interest bearing saving account or other financial vehicles. I'm successful today because I took the best methods of the ppl I modeled myself after & ran with it. Because I'm patient, I'm closer to achieving millionaire status than any of those guys praying every week to hit it big at Big Lotto or whatever their version is.

[quote name='alonzomourning23']My fathers side was dead by the time I was 18 months old, but the rest of my family I know of has 4 high school graduates, they are: me, my parents, and a cousin who graduated 4 years ago. That's it. There are currently no college grads (my father the only one, besides me, who ever even attended college). The other 20 or 25 never even graduated high school, and only 1 would have graduated pre 1966, so it wasn't like not graduating high school didn't matter much at that time. There kids have done the same (the latest just quite last year when he was 16). I'm very close to people who were brought up around heavy drinking and some even violence. The only part of my family that is/were not like that is my immediate family and my mothers parents (my fathers were violent, not sure about drugs or alcohol).

I was in a private jr high and high school, college was a given. I was never in environments with drugs or violence (fights occured maybe once a year in high school). 100% of my high school class went to college. In my neighborhood kids leave bikes, toys etc. on the sidewalk and no one ever touches anything. The fact that environment effects how people perform in life is reflected in statistics and in my own personal experiences. There are multiple reason for programs like affirmative action, but best reason in my mind is not so much providing the extra boost to disadvantaged people who may have just been held back, but as a way to give relatively qualified people the opportunity to advance which, in turn, helps prevent future generations (ie. their children) from having to go through the same hardships. I think affirmative action should be expanded to all poor, but still focus on minorities, just not exclusively.[/QUOTE]

And that's exactly why I said it's partly ridiculous. It's ridiculous that ppl use that as excuse to hold themselves back or think that the only way out is becoming a celeb, drug dealer, or winning the lottery. Hence, they see statistics and give up. Ppl today seem to have lost their will or drive to fight. Nowadays, all I see around me is 'the easy way out'. Although the path I've taken wasn't always the easiest, I've found it definitely more rewarding than what many of my peers can say. The fact that you've grown around alcoholics & violence should only temper your resolve to not be like them. I did exactly that. While my parents weren't violent nor heavy drinkers, for the 1st five years of my life, I lived in an area where it was common to see soldiers as young as 16 holding automatic rifles walking down the street. Moving here in the US, I've seen drug dealers offer me money to be a mule or a lookout, friends getting shot because they were unlucky enough to be playing on the jungle gym when some idiot gangbangers got beef w/ each other & got caught in the crossfire, skeletal crack whores coming up to me when I was 10 yrs old offering me a blowjob (even before I knew what one was) if only I gave them $5 so they can scrape enough $$$ for a dimebag. I've seen enough shit to last 10 kids' lifetimes. But it's because of that shit that I'm strong enough to know that I don't wanna end up like that. I never wanted that to be my ultimate end so I toughed it out and came out a stronger & more moderately-minded person. So it pisses me off when ppl feel like they can't accomplish anything w/o using crutches or shortcuts to get ahead in the game. Everyone's gotta pay their dues (be it being in a shitty family environment or office politics) but w/o that experience, ppl wouldn't be able to test themselves and hopefully come out better for it.
 
[quote name='jaykrue']Well, my point in that paragraph wasn't to highlight the exceptional quality of ppl that I grew up with in less than great circumstances. Rather, it was to highlight their perseverance and, as you said, effort despite those circumstances. Yeah, they were individual successes and would probably be considered exceptions. But it was only used to illustrate that with hard work, your environment can be a negligible factor in future social/financial success. [/quote]

No one says it can't be overcome. Its just that its much more difficult. What the rest of my family strives for is what I'm born with. I can screw around, take 5 years off from college, never have a job, then one day decide "hey, its time to get back on track" and that's it. I can go to college, get my degree and then go on with my life. These things are, in many ways, already set up. Its whether I want to take advantage of it or not, and there are plenty of influences telling me to do just that. Even among the rest of my family college is expected of me. Since I was a little kid they all just assumed I'd get a college degree, while that isn't expected out of anyone else in the family (which can't even seem to get a high school degree), even their own children.

As I mentioned, minorities (and dare I say it, disenfrancised poor white kids) are bombarded by various media (MTV/E! Entertainment are some of the guilty parties) glorifying a lifestyle which most ppl, including celebrities, cannot sustain w/o intelligent planning & foresight. Even ppl like JLO had an overall strategy to make themselves successful while others are still stuck in wishful thinking mode. So many ppl are contributing $5 a week to their local lottery in hopes of making it big instead of taking that $5 & saving it in an interest bearing saving account or other financial vehicles. I'm successful today because I took the best methods of the ppl I modeled myself after & ran with it. Because I'm patient, I'm closer to achieving millionaire status than any of those guys praying every week to hit it big at Big Lotto or whatever their version is.

And that's exactly why I said it's partly ridiculous. It's ridiculous that ppl use that as excuse to hold themselves back or think that the only way out is becoming a celeb, drug dealer, or winning the lottery. Hence, they see statistics and give up. Ppl today seem to have lost their will or drive to fight. Nowadays, all I see around me is 'the easy way out'. Although the path I've taken wasn't always the easiest, I've found it definitely more rewarding than what many of my peers can say. The fact that you've grown around alcoholics & violence should only temper your resolve to not be like them. I did exactly that. While my parents weren't violent nor heavy drinkers, for the 1st five years of my life, I lived in an area where it was common to see soldiers as young as 16 holding automatic rifles walking down the street. Moving here in the US, I've seen drug dealers offer me money to be a mule or a lookout, friends getting shot because they were unlucky enough to be playing on the jungle gym when some idiot gangbangers got beef w/ each other & got caught in the crossfire, skeletal crack whores coming up to me when I was 10 yrs old offering me a blowjob (even before I knew what one was) if only I gave them $5 so they can scrape enough $$$ for a dimebag. I've seen enough shit to last 10 kids' lifetimes. But it's because of that shit that I'm strong enough to know that I don't wanna end up like that. I never wanted that to be my ultimate end so I toughed it out and came out a stronger & more moderately-minded person. So it pisses me off when ppl feel like they can't accomplish anything w/o using crutches or shortcuts to get ahead in the game. Everyone's gotta pay their dues (be it being in a shitty family environment or office politics) but w/o that experience, ppl wouldn't be able to test themselves and hopefully come out better for it.
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Well poor minorities I'd still argue have a little more difficulty, only due to peoples different perceptions of them due to race.

Though have been some studies done on things like that in just one classroom. They would randomly decide which were the good kids and which were the bad kids and, in the end, there was a strong correlation between the behavior and performance of those kids based on that.

I never grew up in an environment I had to overcome. I visited and was very familiar with such an environment, but I always came away from it. My parents also would leave whenever the drinking started, to keep me away from it. My grandparents (who I saw daily) and my family were not like that. The rest of my family came from the same parents as my grandmother did (she told my grandfather to move from missouri to boston or they wouldn't get married, so his family wasn't in the picture), but they ended up all over the lower end of the economic spectrum, we ended up in the middle. With each generation there's more kids, each seemingly poorer than that last. The only good thing is at least the heavy drinking and violence/abuse seems significantly reduced or gone in some instances, even among people who used to behave that way. The sad part is the more functional side has had a total of 2 kids, while the less functional side has at least 18 that I can count off the top of my head, though I know I'm missing some.

The reason my branch of the family ended up much better than the other is probably due to my grandmother. She had polio and did everything she could to overcome the disease (something the doctor said she wouldn't do). She eventually was able to go on life with nothing more than a limp. She was also the youngest of 7, she got all the benefits her sibilings didn't, and got more due to the polio. The others had to quite school as early as possibly to support the family, all but one ended up in poverty. She was the only non heavy drinker, but had no children. My grandmother quit high school (not really an issue at the time) because she wanted to help in the war. She built ships on the docks and was the only female worker there. She was given a much stronger foundation for success, with more choices and opportunities than the rest, and she utilized them.

Essentially while you see it as possible to overcome, and therefore things like AA aren't needed, I see it differently. I look at it and see it as much more difficult to be succesfull, especially when the behavior required for that end is often not taught to the kids in actions, let alone words. Your families history reinforces your view, where's my families history reinforces mine. I'd prefer to give someone a leg up to avoid having their children grow up in the same environment they did, thereby perpetuating that difficult environment. The downside seems mostly ideological with AA.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Essentially while you see it as possible to overcome, and therefore things like AA aren't needed, I see it differently. I look at it and see it as much more difficult to be succesfull, especially when the behavior required for that end is often not taught to the kids in actions, let alone words. Your families history reinforces your view, where's my families history reinforces mine. I'd prefer to give someone a leg up to avoid having their children grow up in the same environment they did, thereby perpetuating that difficult environment. The downside seems mostly ideological with AA.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying it can't be overcome. I'm saying that minorities are perceiving it as such. I agree that such perceptions can be hard to overcome but that just means that when they are, the satisfaction of a job well done is greater. I think your family's history reinforces my view moreso than yours in that you yourself have admitted that your grandmother's tribulations w/ polio, quitting high school, etc. have helped her achieve moderate success in her life. Even if her children/grandchildren don't have the same level of success, it doesn't mean her life wasn't successful. From what you've told me, she seems to have persevered through her tough times and came through her trial of fire tempered to survive any difficulty. That makes her a success in my eyes. Success =/= more $$$$. Rather, it's surviving for a long period of time with happiness & content for the most part. As I said, people now look to the 'easy way out' instead of using it as a model for better living. Case in point, although your grandmother herself is a success, most of her kids are not (the ones who drink and/or have a history of violence). They didn't see how tough her life is, the troubles she's been through and thought "wow, my mom's been through much more shitty stuff than I have" and then model her as an example of how to persevere, to persist, to will oneself to succeed. She might have told her kids the stories of her life but the stories didn't sink in far enough. While trying to prevent offspring from being in such an environment is thoughtful, it doesn't allow them to thrive either. There's no motivation to succeed nor drive to win. That, in the long run, I think is far more harmful than any form of discrimination.

[quote name='Moxio']Yikes. These posts are too long to read! Can someone tell me what's the dealio here?[/QUOTE]

Long story short, OP found out he's got a touch of minority blood & was wondering how to take advantage of it via affirmative action. Later posts argue the merits & demerits of affirmative action itself. The book I wrote a few posts down took the stance that affirmative action either needs to be replaced by better social/ethnic equalizers or done away with altogether. Alonzo took the stance that affirmative action is the social ethnic equalizer in that it gives minorities a better chance at having social parity w/ their Caucasian peers and says it is backed up by statistics. Correct me if I'm wrong or misinterpreted anything.
 
I seem to write a lot of really long posts ;) .

[quote name='jaykrue']I'm not saying it can't be overcome. I'm saying that minorities are perceiving it as such. I agree that such perceptions can be hard to overcome but that just means that when they are, the satisfaction of a job well done is greater. I think your family's history reinforces my view moreso than yours in that you yourself have admitted that your grandmother's tribulations w/ polio, quitting high school, etc. have helped her achieve moderate success in her life. Even if her children/grandchildren don't have the same level of success, it doesn't mean her life wasn't successful. From what you've told me, she seems to have persevered through her tough times and came through her trial of fire tempered to survive any difficulty. That makes her a success in my eyes. Success =/= more $$$$. Rather, it's surviving for a long period of time with happiness & content for the most part. As I said, people now look to the 'easy way out' instead of using it as a model for better living. Case in point, although your grandmother herself is a success, most of her kids are not (the ones who drink and/or have a history of violence). They didn't see how tough her life is, the troubles she's been through and thought "wow, my mom's been through much more shitty stuff than I have" and then model her as an example of how to persevere, to persist, to will oneself to succeed. She might have told her kids the stories of her life but the stories didn't sink in far enough. While trying to prevent offspring from being in such an environment is thoughtful, it doesn't allow them to thrive either. There's no motivation to succeed nor drive to win. That, in the long run, I think is far more harmful than any form of discrimination.[/quote]

The way I see it is she did have a drive. But she also had the most advantages and was the most succesfull of her peers. She avoided the traps that her siblings fell in (alcohol, violence etc.) and therefore her side did not end up like the rest. Her siblings, while hard working (especially the women), were not able to provide their kids with a decent environment or opportunities for success. The other side resulted from having a lack of opportunities, and this continuing with each generation. The environment and the opportunities they had made a significant difference, along with some obvious personal differences.

Its always interesting how people look at the same scenario, focus on different aspects and come to entirely different conclusions.
 
[quote name='JSweeney']Hmm. Enlightenment.
Wouldn't it be boring?[/QUOTE]

On the contrary, I believe the enlightened view the common man as the common man views most wild beasts. Would you ever trade your life with that of a common boar, even if you could be guaranteed to be the happiest boar in the world?
 
I like the point made earlier about earning your spot in life, regardless of who you are.

For instance, if I wanted Cuban cigars, I wouldn't say, "hey, pietaster, now that you're part Cuban can you get me some Cuban cigars?" Hell NO. I would sneak my cheap ass over there, steal them myself and smuggle them back to the United States, just like Will and Martin did with Nia Long in Bad Boys II. Otherwise I would just blow smoke rings of guilt of not earning such a wondeful, illegal item.

Oh well.... I'd probably just crack them open and use them like Phillies anyway..... What was my point again? :)
 
[quote name='The Truth']I like the point made earlier about earning your spot in life, regardless of who you are.

For instance, if I wanted Cuban cigars, I wouldn't say, "hey, pietaster, now that you're part Cuban can you get me some Cuban cigars?" Hell NO. I would sneak my cheap ass over there, steal them myself and smuggle them back to the United States, just like Will and Martin did with Nia Long in Bad Boys II. Otherwise I would just blow smoke rings of guilt of not earning such a wondeful, illegal item.

Oh well.... I'd probably just crack them open and use them like Phillies anyway..... What was my point again? :)[/QUOTE]
Stick to Jamaicans. At least they're made by Capitalist Stooges instead of Communist Stooges

I bet few will get the joke
 
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