Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

[quote name='Heavy Hitter']You just answered your own question. Of course violence can solve those problems. Overcrowded? Kill and enjoy the new space. Pollution? Kill and breathe more air. Disease? Kill and burn. Starvation? Kill and enjoy the fact that more of them will fit in a hole.[/quote]


That sounds like creating new problems to me, not solving anything.
 
Humans are every bit different. We have the capacity to reason and to solve problems and settle disputes without violence. It's one of the few things that makes us more than "animals".
Click to expand...

And that difference you talk about is only enjoyed by those in wealthy and developed nations. You can't settle disputes without violence when only one side of the dispute isn't willing to resort to violence. Isn't that the point of conflicts since the beginning of time?

I'm sure the Russians could have saved 25 million soldiers and citizens in WW II if they settled with the Nazi's by giving them their country. I mean, we wouldn't have had the dispute anymore. They wanted the country, if the Russians gave it to them we wouldn't have had all those dead.

Now let's take a look at a more recent "dispute" like the Cambodian revoltuion of 1975. I mean here we have Pol Pot, a Western educated leftist, who wanted his country restored to its historical agricultural roots. Now some people obviously didn't want to move out of their city homes, some were in dispute. Well he planted 6 million people in fields. Educated? Bullet to the head. Glasses? Intellectual, bullet to the head. City dweller? Threat to agrarian utopian ideals, bullet to the head. Where is the willingness to settle that dispute without violence?

Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.
 
I say its return for the people they burnt and then draged their bodies across a city pissed on them and then hung the dead burnt bodies from the city walls. Did we all forget about that? Whats to say that are soilders can't have a little fun with them now. Do you really think they would treat our POWs better! Do I agree with what they did? No I don't I don't think they should have done it. But why are we getting into such a uproar about it now. They did it to us. Favor returned. Who wouldn't want to take a few eaxta shots on these guys when nobody was looking. Can you blame the soliders? After what they did on 911. People have forgottren about that. We were so ready to fight anyone and everyone then but now no way its for oil. Do you guys not remeber the buildings burning? These soilders in "Iraq are the ones who enlisted after 911. Alls fair in love and War remember
 
My opinion, it's a damn shame but who cares? Those people are in jail for a reason. Not to mention the fact that some of them have probably killed americans. Ignorant? Maybe. But nonetheless true.
 
[quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.
 
[quote name='Mr_hockey66']I say its return for the people they burnt and then draged their bodies across a city pissed on them and then hung the dead burnt bodies from the city walls. Did we all forget about that? Whats to say that are soilders can't have a little fun with them now. Do you really think they would treat our POWs better! Do I agree with what they did? No I don't I don't think they should have done it. But why are we getting into such a uproar about it now. They did it to us. Favor returned. Who wouldn't want to take a few eaxta shots on these guys when nobody was looking. Can you blame the soliders? After what they did on 911. People have forgottren about that. We were so ready to fight anyone and everyone then but now no way its for oil. Do you guys not remeber the buildings burning? These soilders in "Iraq are the ones who enlisted after 911. Alls fair in love and War remember[/quote]

By your reasoning, it's high time the Native Americans started passing out smallpox-loaded blankets for all the palefaces.

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

P.S. The Iraqis had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Even Bush has admitted this at least once.
 
What happened was a disgrace on the Americain Military and it should NOT happen again, but I don't understand what the big deal is, the middle east is notorious for having the worst prisons in the world, they have dragged our soldiers, and civilian workers threw their streets, they shot and killed POW during the very brief war we had about a year ago, they even had it on tape. If no one in the world is going to play by the rules then why should we. I personally don't like what happened, but they announced the investigation in january, I heard it on the radio, they pressed charges in march against those involved...now here we are in early may, and this story comes up. Get over it, humans are evil everywhere, yes even in our military we have bad seeds. I heard several analyst try to say, that due to the change in the military policy in the early 90's, about allowing gays in thru the don't ask don't tell policy, that maybe some of the leaders in the prison were gay, and were acting out...Statements like this are pathetic, I don't feel the president should say sorry, it wasn't orders from the top of the govt, and the bullshit about rumsfeld lied, decived, covered up come on now, it was several idiotic soldiers in iraq.
 
[quote name='littlemonkey'][quote name='dtcarson']'Right wing corporate media?' Which one, National Review, Fox News, or Rush Limbaugh?[/quote]
Enlighten yourself. Here's who owns the media. http://www.thenation.com/special/bigten.html
I always forget, businessmen and investors are known as notorious liberals. Silly me, I've got to start reading the Labor section in the newspaper. I think it's in here somewhere...[/quote]

When I think of 'left wing media', I think of the faces whose job it is to report the news. Alleged 'journalists', who in actuality use their job as a political pulpit. The businessmen in the boardrooms don't really care what's said, as long as ad space still sells and not too many stockholders/members of the public/FCC staff complain. And aren't liberals not supposed to stereotype? It sounds to me like you are saying 'All businessmen and investors are conservative.' Which is most certainly a stereotype. Especially given that the 'rich', who are more likely to be those evil businessmen, when they're not the Hollywood elite or people who inherited/married into their money, and can afford to donate more politically, predominantly donate to Democrats.

[quote name='dtcarson']And virtually every other US 'mainstream' outlet is at least moderate, to slightly-left-of-Karl-Marx.[/quote]
Typical. In the small little world of right wing conservatives, moderate conservatives are perceived as crazy-eyed liberals.

What? I said they ranged from moderate to far-left. I did not equate the two. Read all the words in the sentence, please. And I'm pleased to see you indulging in another common 'debate' tactic of the left, where if something isn't one thing, it is automatically its polar opposite.

[quote name='dtcarson']And yes, Muslims/Iraqis may think of humiliation as 'torture', most Americans wouldnt, and the news sources are reporting to an American audience.[/quote]
Let me put some electrodes on your nuts and we'll see if you still want to call it "abuse".

Quite the peacenik, aren't you. So removing a brutal dictator is bad, but threatening to attack and torture a fellow American is ok.
Did the people in the pictures we are discussing do that? If they did, then that end of it certainly qualifies as 'torture'. If they didn't attempt to physically harm or cause physical pain to them, then I stand by 'abuse/humiliation.'


[quote name='dtcarson']I don't think the actions of a limited few people abusing a temporary position of power invalidates or negates what has changed for the better in Iraq over the last 1-2 years.[/quote]

First I had to listen to these right wingers go on and on about weapons of mass destruction. Weren't any.

Haven't found. There's a difference. Also, it has been shown that AlQaeda did train in Iraq, and most likely did receive chemical/gas weapons from Iraq.

Then I had to listen to them talk about Saddam being connected to Bin Laden and 9/11. No connection, not true.
Next they started grasping for straws, hysterically shouting "well, at least the Iraqis are better off with us than that torturer Saddam!" Wrong again.

Wait a minute, so the average Iraqi 'citizen' is better off with Saddam? Saving corpses of babies until they make good photos, torturing and killing his 'citizens', stealing billions of dollars that were given by the all-holy UN in an Oil for Food kickback--er, program, and were meant to buy food for the average person? Regardless of whether we should or should not have gone into Iraq or captured Saddam, 'Was Saddam better for the Iraqis? Was he a fit ruler?'

I wonder? What's Rush gonna put in your ignorant little mouths next?

Cute. Real cute. Why is it that in most of these threads, the name calling and snarky comments that don't really say anything tend to come from the 'tolerant' left first?

Your stuff's in italics, I didn't want to mess with the quote tags.
 
P.S. The Iraqis had NOTHING to do with 9/11. Nothing. Zip. Nada. Even Bush has admitted this at least once.

I didn't read in the previous post that he said they had something to do with 9/11, and so what if they didn't, the 9/11 commission was going on and on attacking bush on why didn't he do something sooner, well guess what he did that and did something in Iraq, maybe this prevented something that might have come a couple years down the road, maybe it didn't, but we are playing defense anymore are we
 
[quote name='daphatty']My opinion, it's a damn shame but who cares? Those people are in jail for a reason. [/quote]

Some of them, but not all of them.

And you know what? Most people in U.S. prisons are there for a reason too. Is it OK to do the same thing to them? After all, they are there for a reason.
 
i think that its messed up...what they did....but you don't know the state of mind that some of these soldiers are in....this whole iraq situation is stupid....and now they have to keep going back, stay longer, go back, stay longer, etc. Just blow the whole place up....or let them deal with their own problems....they don't want us there. And I'm as heartfelt as anyone else out there....ill still cry watching Lion King....but dont give me that, "what about the children" garbage...."we can't bomb the place because of the children"....the children are gonna be nightmares towards us (in the future) due to us killing their parents....they will seek revenge.............and to sum up the whole pow issue....a few privates will take the fall....but no1 else....even though nothing goes on down there without someone in charge walking around.....i dont really care personally about the humiliating and etc....at least we're not killing them and raping them and dragging them across the street and burning them and hacking up their bodies and stringing them across bridges........all in all....if you don't like whats going on....or if you don't like what you see....sign up for the military and make a difference, or stfu

now feel free to yell at me about this issue...
 
Guys, I can appreciate your 'let's work things out, give a peace a chance' stance. I don't mean that sarcastically. If we were dealing with normal people, I would harp that line myself.

However, we are dealing with a section of humanity that is not far removed from savages. I don't say that to be racist or mean. I say that because it's what I see. The people in the Middle East have been at war for thousands of years, both with themselves and with those from other religions and/or countries. These people are not high on negotiating.

I think I've said this before, but it bears repeating. The average Arab (especially Arab Muslims) understands and respects two things: power and money. If you can find an Arab native who spent their formative years in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc then came to the US, please ask them. 90% of them will agree with that statement, and the other 10% will disagree out of embarrasment.

Most of the people who are attacking US troops and basically any other non-Arab persons in Iraq are fundamentalist Muslims. They don't care what position you have personally. If you, as an individual, were captured by them, it wouldn't matter how much negotiating or convincing you tried in order to show them you supported them. If you are not an Arab Muslim, you are less than them, and thus are worthy only of being used as either a hostage or target practice. It's sad, and I honestly don't know of any other way to approach those types of people other than to use force.

I've seen a lot of gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair, but I have yet to see someone offer a better solution to the problem of fundamentalist terrorism.
 
Again....!!!!

Another heated political debate between pro-war pro-bush and anti-war anti-bush. Isnt this getting a bit old...

You can type and read and say all you want but I havent seen ONE person here change their minds on the subjects. Sure there are lots of good opinions here on both sides but does it really matter.

Page after page after page after page after page...endless pages of political debate in a GAMES FORUMS...Cmon please just talk about the weather or something.


Are we gonna have these threads here every day? If so I vote to start a politics forums to keep the arguments out of what is normally a fun off-topics forums.
 
[quote name='defender']
Page after page after page after page after page...endless pages of political debate in a GAMES FORUMS...Cmon please just talk about the weather or something.[/quote]

Yeah, but it's the off topic forum. I can understand your dislike of the threads, but you can just skip them. I know I overlook more than a few.

Besides I have nothing else to do at work, and I enjoy playing devil's advocate.
 
[quote name='PsyClerk']Besides I have nothing else to do at work, and I enjoy playing devil's advocate.[/quote]

Me too.
clown3b.gif
 
[quote name='PsyClerk'][quote name='defender']
Page after page after page after page after page...endless pages of political debate in a GAMES FORUMS...Cmon please just talk about the weather or something.[/quote]

Yeah, but it's the off topic forum. I can understand your dislike of the threads, but you can just skip them. I know I overlook more than a few.

Besides I have nothing else to do at work, and I enjoy playing devil's advocate.[/quote]

i vote defender stops whining about the off topic forum. i mean really how many times have u mentioned that u hate political topics? why read them? why post in them? it makes no sence. if u dont want to read it, dont click it. while some topics do stray off and become about politics, clearly a thread named "iraqi prisioner abuse" is gunna have some politics. totally avoidable.
 
i agree with punqsux....im new here....but ive seen a lot of whining from defender (no offense)....but this is where this topic belongs....unless a new forum is introduced...along with psyclerk, i see tons of posts that i just dont even bother with because i dont care....if you dont like it....just ignore it....you can't go to your local safeway supermarket and say you dont like the milk being in the dairy aisle, so it has to be moved
 
because they tend to bleed into other topics and takes up everyones time reading and writing in these damn threads...its not as easy as you think to just ignore them when they are starting to fill up all the new posts and front page latest posts...

even scrubking is smart enough to stay away...

Yeah..I am whining I realize that but hey..I am trying to convince people just like everyone else is here. Except I dont have a political agenda attached to it.
 
It was the morning of 9/11. I work in NJ directly across the river from what used to be the Twin Towers. I remember passing them that morning during my commute and thinking to myself what a beautiful day, as I watched the sun beam off them. It was about 10 minutes after that when I walked into my office that I saw the news bulletin on our conference room TV. I immediately ran to my car and drove to a parking lot that had a clear view of the TT's. My next action may have been the biggest mistake of my life. I broke out my binoculars from the trunk of my car. As I watched in horror the second tower was hit, it was now apparent to me that this was an act of terroism. I almost puked. I can vividly remember watching people jump to their deaths, some on fire some not. I personally knew six people that died. Familys torn apart, kids traumatized for life. I still wake up sometimes in a cold sweat from the nightmares. The most recent time last night.

This cowardly act was done by a culture that has no respect for American life. Al-Quaida, Iraq, Iran whatever..... it's the culture.

So now I see some abuse stories or torture stories about prisoners in an Iraqi jail I think to myself these people would slit your throat without a second thought. These prisoners would kill your wife.... your kids.....your friends without a second thought. They would strip you of everything they could given the chance.

I think in my mind that this is not right. Two wrongs don't make right. I think we should not stoop to their level.

However, I feel in my heart a burning desire to condone pain and sufferring on a culture that has inflicted so much pain on me personally and us all collectively as a nation
 
[quote name='snotknocker']It was the morning of 9/11. I work in NJ directly across the river from what used to be the Twin Towers. I remember passing them that morning during my commute and thinking to myself what a beautiful day, as I watched the sun beam off them. It was about 10 minutes after that when I walked into my office that I saw the news bulletin on our conference room TV. I immediately ran to my car and drove to a parking lot that had a clear view of the TT's. My next action may have been the biggest mistake of my life. I broke out my binoculars from the trunk of my car. As I watched in horror the second tower was hit, it was now apparent to me that this was an act of terroism. I almost puked. I can vividly remember watching people jump to their deaths, some on fire some not. I personally knew six people that died. Familys torn apart, kids traumatized for life. I still wake up sometimes in a cold sweat from the nightmares. The most recent time last night.

This cowardly act was done by a culture that has no respect for American life. Al-Quaida, Iraq, Iran whatever..... it's the culture.

So now I see some abuse stories or torture stories about prisoners in an Iraqi jail I think to myself these people would slit your throat without a second thought. These prisoners would kill your wife.... your kids.....your friends without a second thought. They would strip you of everything they could given the chance.

I think in my mind that this is not right. Two wrongs don't make right. I think we should not stoop to their level.

However, I feel in my heart a burning desire to condone pain and sufferring on a culture that has inflicted so much pain on me personally and us all collectively as a nation[/quote]

its called human rights. everybody should have them, regardless of culture, or political viewpoints.

when you take someone prisoner, you have to supply them with food/clothing/hygine materials/etc. and on top of that, its your job to protect them! while they do lose freedoms for being a prisoner, they are still human.

statments like the one above my post are the reason why hate will never die, only manifest
 
[quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.[/quote]

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.[/quote]

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL[/quote]

you believe everyone in iraq is a terrorist?
 
[quote name='punqsux'][quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.[/quote]

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL[/quote]

you believe everyone in iraq is a terrorist?[/quote]

:lol: , uh oh, the liberal's cornered. I love when this happens :D .
 
[quote name='snotknocker']

This cowardly act was done by a culture that has no respect for American life. Al-Quaida, Iraq, Iran whatever..... it's the culture.

[/quote]

I thought I knew what ridiculous was until this day.

Dave Olson
*SUPER DUPER INTERNET CELEBRITY SUPASTAR~!* TM.
 
[quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.[/quote]

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL[/quote]

My answer would be that you can't deal with them through violence (short of total genocide.) All that will do is expand the number of them that hate us and will lead to plenty more terrorism down the road. What needs to be done is change the Iraqis on a fundamental level by raising their quality of life and letting the non-violent majority of them (at least I hope the majority of them aren't suicide bombing fanatics) take control of the region. I'm a realist, and as such I don't think it can be accomplished without bloodshed on both sides, but I think this offensive that we're stuck in now is absolutely the wrong way to go about it. I believe we've set relations with the country (and probably a lot of the region) back 50 years with this offensive. Sorry it's not a yes or no answer (if you insisted on that I'd say "yes, but not without shit-tons of American casualties, which is unacceptable in reality.")
 
Therein lies the flaw. The people in that region are far too entrenched in their religion. If they aren't fighting the US or other infidels, they'll fight other Iraqis or Arabs who are with a different religious faction.

The correct answer is 'religion is bad.'

/REALLY FLAME ON! FOR LIKE REAL AND STUFF!
 
[quote name='punqsux'][quote name='CTLesq'][quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='PittsburghAfterDark']Do you want to go on? Rwanda perhaps? Croatia, Yugoslavia, Kosovo? Iraq? Sudan? Where is the ability for people to settle disuptes withou violence? It isn't prevelant. It doesn't exist.[/quote]

Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?

I said we had the capacity. Obviously mistakes are made all the time and peoples suffer for them.

So the answer is to just "go with the flow"? Just pretend the world is a giant game of Survivor and don't work for something better?


Uh uh.

Keep thinking.[/quote]

You believe the terrorists can be handled by peaceful means?

I just want a yes or no.

CTL[/quote]

you believe everyone in iraq is a terrorist?[/quote]

Nope, as Hereticked will state, in order to avoid the issue, "there were no terrorists in Iraq before the US came" (which is incorrect see: Abdul Nidal and Abu Nidal). My issue is broader.

He asserts:

"Are you suggesting that no dispute on Earth has ever been settled peacefully?"

So I am asking him if we can reasonably deal with the terrorists in a peaceful manner and reslove their issues?


XboxMaster : I am neither a liberal or ever cornered.

CTL
 
The best solution at this point (and this is a long-range mission) is to reduce and eventually eliminate our dependence on petroleum. If we didn't need oil, we would not keep getting dragged into conflicts in the region. But our Oil Man in Chief is never gonna suggest that. All his pals are making tons of money and will fight any efforts at alternative fuels tooth and nail.
 
Dependence on oil is only part of it. Our support for Israel is another HUGE part of it. Arabs hate us for that more than anything.
 
Israel is perhaps THEE biggest reason why arabs hate america. That, and our presence in saudi arabia, considered sacred land to the muslim world. It seems that when people have jobs, and are busy with work and providing for their families, they don't have the time nor the will to inflame hatred. That's what america needs to focus on in iraq - that's the plan that bush needs to present to americans. A plan to get iraq's economy going with creating jobs in iraq.

I haven't read all the entries in this thread. But what saddens me the most is that some of the soldiers don't even look old enough to drink yet, but now they are being condemned for abusing prisoners. Dang, man, when I was 18-20 years old, I was still doing extremely stupid stuff in college. Granted, I wasn't in the military serving as prison guards. But if I was stuck in iraq for God knows how long, and had very, very low moral, I don't know what I would do over there either. Especially if I was trained to be a soldier, but was stuck doing crappy prison guard stuff that should be handled by professionals. I'm not blaming the administration, but the soldiers commanding officiers should have done more.

Oh, and to snotknocker - keep in mind that religion under Saddam was suppressed. Many iraqis hated him for that, but he led a secular government and kept terrorists in check under his country. Are we better off without him? Maybe, maybe not. The question is: is iraq and our country worse off now?
 
Come on...the commanding officers should have done more? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard come out of this mess. I wanted to slap the one soldier who complained he wasn't given any guidelines about how to handle prisoners. Here's a hint: don't use them in sick twisted games and photographs. That's common shaq-fuing sense. My military buddies agree that those guys immediately responsible are dumbasses.

Exactly what sort of 'professional' is needed to handle prisoners? I know a couple of prison guards from the county lock-up, and saw more in action in a federal facility. Rocket science it ain't.

Is Iraq worse off now? No. But if they fall into the trap of instituting a government based on religion, they'll slide back a few decades.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B'] Dang, man, when I was 18-20 years old, I was still doing extremely stupid stuff in college. [/quote]

like violating basic human rights?

god damn, those people are representing US as a whole, and their doing shit like that. i cant imagine why people hate us... :roll:
 
Just checked in on this thread...been up late writing lesson plans for my 7th grade class i'm student teaching in...thought I'd toss my idiotic viewpoints into the arena...

I've always been a middle of the roader...and it kind of sucks...my wife is a big liberal, my dad a pretty big conservative...buy my views, while consistent, have always been on both sides of the fence (i.e. anti abortion and anti capital punishment; big fan of welfare AND big fan of personal responsibility).

I was a supporter of the war...whether or not Iraq had WMD...why because I can't stand idiot dictators who treat their own people like shit. Of course I assumed that the Republicans who have spent their entire modern existenced supporting the industrial military complex and defining and redefining the way wars are fought and won...would have a shaq-fuin plan. In essence I believe someone has to police the world...and it probably should be us, since like it or not that has been our role throughout history.

But the problem is that we didn't have a plan. That's what is the most disturbing thing about all of this. Everyone looks like they've been caught in the headlights. Bush apologizes TODAY...days and days and days late. He doesn't wipe his ass unless he gets the approval from whoever it is that's pulling his puppet strings.

What's going on over there is terrible. No one regardless of ethnicity, religious belief, or national origin should be humilaited like that. And what is most frightening and disturbing about this is that our military folks, the people carrying the guns and fighting our battles are DUMB ENOUGH to take pictures of themselves doing it.

This should be in "The Onion" it's so freakin ridiculous. What sort of people take these photos and don't think that people will see them. It's stupidity and hubris rolled into one.

I have always tried to live by Kant's Categorical Imperative (sort of a philosophical "Golden Rule"). Don't treat anyone in a way that you yourself would not want to be treated. Is that so hard to understand? Is that so difficult to comprehend? Where is one's own dignity and self respect when you're standing behind a bunch of nude men high fiving and making faces?

So few people seem to think about the repercussions of their actions anymore. I suppose, though, they follow their own leaders actions. There's so much to talk about here...we have leaders who lied to get us into Iraq...knowlingly followed crap evidence of WMD to sway most of the U.S. into war...an administration that did not even win the popular vote in this country...an administration stacked with a whos who of the oil industry...

I can't go on with this...I want to ask one question though..why is it that this administration the defender of freedom around the globe...is so intent on taking away our own freedoms piece by piece...I am particularly concerned with the FCC and their current crusade against free speech.

I suppose we can support dozens of nude Iraqis on our tv screens, but not a pierced tit...

great set of priorities...
 
[quote name='PsyClerk']Come on...the commanding officers should have done more? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard come out of this mess. I wanted to slap the one soldier who complained he wasn't given any guidelines about how to handle prisoners. Here's a hint: don't use them in sick twisted games and photographs. That's common shaq-fuing sense. My military buddies agree that those guys immediately responsible are dumbasses.

Exactly what sort of 'professional' is needed to handle prisoners? I know a couple of prison guards from the county lock-up, and saw more in action in a federal facility. Rocket science it ain't.

Is Iraq worse off now? No. But if they fall into the trap of instituting a government based on religion, they'll slide back a few decades.[/quote]

I think you missed my point. My point was that these soldiers performing these acts looked very, very young. Any with youth comes stupidity. That's why you need supervisors over these teens, just like you need a supervisor at a restaurant where a bunch of teen boys might spit a loogie in your food because they think it's funny. It's easy for you to judge our soldiers from your safe, air-conditioned house. But let me see YOU go to iraq for 2 years during an insurgency in a war where the president lied about our reason to go over there in the first place. Let me see YOU over there, watching people you know drop like flies, then have the pentagon try to hide the entire story behind these soldier's deaths. Then tell me that you still give a shaq-fu about those prisoners. I'm not saying that we can't judge them. I'm saying to at least try to imagine what it's like over there first.

What a mess. (i.e., Iraq).
 
Actually the dancing in the street after 9/11 thing was not Arabs in Iraq, it was Jews in Israel.

And the reason was that they had been attacked by terrorists (gee, you occupy a country and expect a warm welcome) and were glad to see that the US was experiencing what they had experienced.


Do not post bullshit as fact and do not post fact as bullshit, but post fact as fact and bullshit as bullshit, and that be the word of the nerd.


____

And since there were no WMDs the only cause for the war was to end Sadams reign of terror.

Ofcourse, there are always gonna be some religious bigots that beleive they are exempt from everything and can do whatever the fuck they want.
 
JSweeney mode...ACTIVATED!

Just a few things I wanted to point out...

[quote name='loserboy']my views, while consistent,[/quote]

I would challenge this. Let's look closer.

[quote name='loserboy']big fan of welfare AND big fan of personal responsibility).[/quote]

Remind me to add this to my list I posted earlier, like 'exact estimate' and 'definite maybe.'

[quote name='loserboy']I was a supporter of the war...whether or not Iraq had WMD...why because I can't stand idiot dictators who treat their own people like shit.[/quote]

Ok, I can see this. But wait...

[quote name='loserboy']There's so much to talk about here...we have leaders who lied to get us into Iraq...knowlingly followed crap evidence of WMD to sway most of the U.S. into war[/quote]

Your earlier statement implies you didn't care about WMD. So which is it? Let me guess...you're a big Kerry supporter, right?

[quote name='loserboy']I suppose we can support dozens of nude Iraqis on our tv screens, but not a pierced tit...[/quote]

No one supports the former. And for the record, both are atrocities.
 
[quote name='PsyClerk']
[quote name='loserboy']I was a supporter of the war...whether or not Iraq had WMD...why because I can't stand idiot dictators who treat their own people like shit.[/quote]

Ok, I can see this. But wait...

[quote name='loserboy']There's so much to talk about here...we have leaders who lied to get us into Iraq...knowlingly followed crap evidence of WMD to sway most of the U.S. into war[/quote]

Your earlier statement implies you didn't care about WMD. So which is it? Let me guess...you're a big Kerry supporter, right?
[/quote]

i think what hes saying there is he dosent care about why we went into iraq, hes just pointing out that the gov used propaghanda to say the opinion of the american public. im all for these political debates, but dont knock things out of context like that, it makes u lok like a politician :wink:
 
Told lies to make congress and the people approve.

Should have told truth and said war was for overthrowing Sadam and making money for Halliburton.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']
I think you missed my point. My point was that these soldiers performing these acts looked very, very young. Any with youth comes stupidity. That's why you need supervisors over these teens, just like you need a supervisor at a restaurant where a bunch of teen boys might spit a loogie in your food because they think it's funny. It's easy for you to judge our soldiers from your safe, air-conditioned house. But let me see YOU go to iraq for 2 years during an insurgency in a war where the president lied about our reason to go over there in the first place. Let me see YOU over there, watching people you know drop like flies, then have the pentagon try to hide the entire story behind these soldier's deaths. Then tell me that you still give a shaq-fu about those prisoners. I'm not saying that we can't judge them. I'm saying to at least try to imagine what it's like over there first.[/quote]

Yes, they are young. And if we were talking about random morons off the street, I'd agree with you. However, two issues....first, you say 'they look young.' That does not mean they are 18 straight out of high school. Second, these are soldiers. Six weeks of basic training can get rid of a lot of stupid behavior.

Yes, they are in a tough environment. However, that is no excuse to forgoe all personal responsibility. The 'watching people you know drop like flies' is also a misleading statement. In a year, we've lost less than 1% of the standing forces, not counting those that have rotated out.

I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']Told lies to make congress and the people approve.

Should have told truth and said war was for overthrowing Sadam and making money for Halliburton.[/quote]

i would have prefered this. while i wouldnt have agreed, i knew he was lying anyways, and truth is always better than a lie
 
MSNBC had those pics. And to E Z B, I don't think those are teenagers, but just for the sake of argument, lets say they are. I'm 21 and I would NEVER, could NEVER, do that to another human being. That was disgusting, and trust me, I generally have a strong stomach. So even if they were "teens", they should still have they DECENCY to not do that to someone. Also, they guy in back of the tackle with the glasses looks at least 35. (Is it just me, or does he remind any of you of Sgt. Slaughter of WWF fame?)
 
[quote name='PsyClerk']I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.[/quote]

=D>

while i dislike bush as much as anyone, i agree this incident isnt his fault directly. if you REALLY want to stretch it, it IS his fault that the troops are even there in the first place. and if you REALLY want to stretch that, its sadams fault we were there. and if you really want to stretch that, its the iraqi people fault for "electing" him. so as you can see its clearly their own fault...

anyways back in reality, i hope these troops are punished severly for this, as i 100% blame them. theres no excuses. no reasons, they truley are walking piles of human composte
 
[quote name='Jakeryansdad']Is it just me, or does he remind any of you of Sgt. Slaughter of WWF fame?[/quote]

Thanks, now I have that music that he used in his entrance in my head for the rest of day.

/marches off
 
[quote name='PsyClerk'][quote name='Jakeryansdad']Is it just me, or does he remind any of you of Sgt. Slaughter of WWF fame?[/quote]

Thanks, now I have that music that he used in his entrance in my head for the rest of day.

/marches off[/quote]

drop and give me 20, MAGGOT!
 
[quote name='punqsux'][quote name='PsyClerk']I suppose it's much more attractive for the left to lay blame on Bush or Rumsfeld rather than the actual perpetrators, though.[/quote]

=D>

while i dislike bush as much as anyone, i agree this incident isnt his fault directly. if you REALLY want to stretch it, it IS his fault that the troops are even there in the first place. and if you REALLY want to stretch that, its sadams fault we were there. and if you really want to stretch that, its the iraqi people fault for "electing" him. so as you can see its clearly their own fault...

anyways back in reality, i hope these troops are punished severly for this, as i 100% blame them. theres no excuses. no reasons, they truley are walking piles of human composte[/quote]

Rummy knew about it but kept it secret, that is what he has been accused of. Noone said he had involvement.

Also, the Iraqis had 2 choices on their voting cards, "yes" and "no".
A vote for "no" gets the death penalty and the vote is invalidated.
The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.
 
[quote name='Quackzilla']The CIA put that bastard in power, not the people.[/quote]

It's ok, the CIA is in collusion with the alien overmind.

Ironically, anyone remember that Sgt Slaughter teamed up with the Iron Sheik or someone that was supposedly Iraqi back in the early 90s? What's old is new again!
 
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