[quote name='panzerfaust']I don't know what to say here. I said there's much work to be done, and you just restated why there's much work to be done.[/QUOTE]
I don't know. To me, that's like learning someone has a tumor in their leg, so you walk up, chop off their leg, then tell them they're welcome. The reason why there is much work to be done is because we borked the whole thing so bad.
Didn't Saddam erect mosques in his name, have his own version of the Koran written in his own blood (according to him), and placed an islamic verse on the nation's flag? I may be wrong, I've just heard these commonly thrown around, among examples of Iraq funding Islamic extremism, and I could try to look this all up later tonight, but I thought these were widely thrown around points of interest. Always happy to learn new facts though if these are indeed not true!
I had never heard of the "Blood Quran" but apparently such a thing exists...sort of. According to the wiki page:
the Umm al-Ma'arik (Mother Of All Battles) mosque in Baghdad, erected by Saddam to commemorate the 1990-91 Gulf War and designed with minarets in the shape of Scud missiles and Kalashnikov rifle barrels.
Other reports have questioned the official Saddam Hussein government version of how much blood was donated in the making of the Qur'an (or if it was even Saddam's blood in the first place). Reporter Philip Smucker reported in Baghdad on July 29, 2001; "Most striking is the dubious and totally unverifiable claim that Saddam donated nearly 50 pints of his own blood for the writing of a Koran." Smucker also wrote: "Western diplomats based in Baghdad are unimpressed with the Iraqi leader's religious devotion, dismissing the mosque and its holy book written in blood as a crude publicity stunt. 'How can we be sure this is Saddam's blood and not that of some of his victims?' one asked."
So a mosque with rifles and missiles for minarets, and severe doubts regarding Saddam's devotion. Not to mention, it was common knowledge that he had mistresses and a strong fondness for alcohol, both against the religion of Islam.
Also all that talk of how Abdul Rahman Yasin found refuge in Baghdad after his partaking in the 93 attack on the WTC, and Abu Nidal living in a wealthy residence under Saddam's protection until the invasion. I thought the general impression of our CIA these days is that they have no idea what they're doing. Again, something I'd like to learn more about, just throwing this out for the sake of discussion.
Looks like Yasin (who is Iraqi) was a bargaining chip:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_Yasin#Return_to_Iraq.2C_1993
But as it stands, Iraq committed genocide on its own people,
And so have LOTS of other countries that we haven't invaded or even condemned publicly.
aided international criminals
Which America has done too
held and used weapons of mass destruction
No they didn't. They used (allegedly) chemical warfare, which is illegal, much like the phosphorous rounds that Israel (allegedly) used against the Lebanese in their recent conflict. We did not invade Israel either.
and invaded neighboring countries
Which America has done repeatedly throughout its history.
If Bush made a poor case for the war, then so he did, but the justification is as good as any if you look at the situation yourself and not through the words of a politician.
It's now common knowledge that there were no WMDs and many international advisors pleaded to be heard as they proclaimed this. The next plan then was to say al-qaeda was all over Iraq. This was proven as a lie too. So Plan C eventualy became, "Yah, well we can get Saddam!" That wasn't a good enough reason to raize the country and send it into a social, political, and economic spiral.
The situation in the Middle East has been known to the United States since the Barbary Wars of the late 18th and early 19th century. It was a war over trade, but nonetheless introduced a very young U.S. to theocratic regimes and how they operate. Even their ambassadors claimed they could attack U.S. trading vessels because the Koran allowed for it.
Didn't Bush proclaim a "Crusade" against those who attacked us on 9/11? Barbary Pirates attacking US ships in the ocean shortly after Captain Jack Sparrow was getting a tan, is a wee bit different from setting up military bases all over another countries' land and bombing their cities and political leaders to death, then staying after your "objectives" have been completed in the name of safety and stability (which neither have improved under American control). There is no comparison whatsoever.
Not comparing that with what we have on our hands now, of course the situations are very different, but there is a history
Uh, I'm not trying to be a total ass, but after using that as historical juxtaposition when piracy in the 1800's wasn't being discussed previously, you are kind of using it as comparison.
There is extensive history of early Islamic populations actually getting along exceptionally well with their non-Muslim neighbors. In fact, according to wiki:
Umar ibn al-Khattab signed a treaty with Monophysite Christian Patriarch Sophronius, assuring him that Jerusalem's Christian holy places and population would be protected under Muslim rule. When led to pray at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the holiest site for Christians, the caliph Umar refused to pray in the church so that Muslims would not request converting the church to a mosque. He prayed outside the church, where the Mosque of Umar (Omar) stands to this day, opposite the entrance to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre
But in contemporary history, there have been very, very, VERY few attacks on Americans on American soil by foreign terrorists. This does not warrant tens of thousands of deaths of innocents in other countries, nor does it warrant the deaths of thousands of American soldiers. Get them the eff out of there before more get killed.
Edit: And just wanted to throw in a quick note-not trying to be an asshole in my reply, it's just something I'm really passionate about, as I personally know of 2-3 dear friends who have had their families assassinated in Iraq for being the minority in the new Iraq. I think a lot of the things like mosques, blood quran, etc, are nifty buzzwords and phrases, but their significance beyond a one liner on the crawl of a Fox News broadcast is probably about as much as it's worth. IMO there was no justification for this war, and it has ruined a ton of lives (both American and Iraqi), and has been a completely pointless tragedy.
people...stop randomly murdering people.
