Is America coming apart?

It's because many people claiming to be Christians aren't. It's used as a political tool. Any true Christian would be obligated to help their fellow man. Instead most people claiming to be Christian seem to be more interested in kicking the collective asses of some far off country of the moment.

Unfortunately religion has been used throughout the ages as an excuse to kill people, that hasn't changed and probably never will.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']It's because many people claiming to be Christians aren't. It's used as a political tool. Any true Christian would be obligated to help their fellow man. Instead most people claiming to be Christian seem to be more interested in kicking the collective asses of some far off country of the moment.

Unfortunately religion has been used throughout the ages as an excuse to kill people, that hasn't changed and probably never will.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, christianity is a tag more than anything for many people. These people here are born into it and identify as followers of christ, but outside of going to church one or two times a week and conforming to the rules, these people are just going through the motions. What Jesus Would Do is largely peripheral. What matters most is what "righteous" politicians and clergy tell them to do and believe.
 
Anyone see the sign someone was carrying on Capitol Hill today? It read Stop Trading Freedom for Security.......Really? The Patriot Act didn't do that? Guantanamo didn't do that? They hypocrisy on both sides is getting ridiculous but I'm really disappointed with the right since their memory seems so short.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I don't think you realize this, but there are just as many idiots on the Democrat's side. They just listen to everything Obama says, except it as fact, and yet know nothing about it. They don't know what change is. They just think it sounds nice.[/QUOTE]

If you can't see all the lies and distortions coming from the right these days and are just going to play this half assed card you are simply blind because you hate the left that much more.

Instead of parroting the "oh yeah, well they are doing it too!" bullshit again, why don't you give some specific examples and then show us what the real facts and truth are. Because I can come up with a whole list of them coming from the right these days, just on healthcare alone.

Look no further than the million moron march taking place today to see the distortions, lies and garbage coming from ignorant idiots ACCEPTING what they hear as fact from the likes of entertainers such as Beck and Limbaugh. I guess they just think all the hate and fear sounds nice.
 
[quote name='lawdood']QFT

Where have these halfwits who were out protesting in DC today been for the last 8 years? Bush spends a trillion on 2 wars and billions on tax cuts for the rich yet not a protest or peep out of the same people going batshit crazy after 8 months of Obama in the White House. If it's all about the deficit where were they for 8 years? Is it because people like Glenn Beck and Lush Limbaugh weren't giving them marching orders to do so then? You betcha. ;)

My question made it on Real Time with Bill Maher Overtime last night which asked, "Why is it so much easier to sell war in this supposedly Christian nation than it is something that actually benefits it's citizens like healthcare reform?"

Perhaps because the talking heads at Fox and elsewhere cloak the spending on war in patriotism and fear mongering and the scared and angry tardmonkeys give them a blank check. When someone dare questions the decison to go off and kill people and spend billions they're shouted down as anti-American. Yet, today, those same sheeple carry signs and shout words as anti-American and as hateful as we've ever seen. All because assholes like Beck tell them it's OK.

It just goes to show you the priorities of the moron class in this country that they simply allow themselves to blindly follow whatever message those that play upon their inherent racism, ignorance and fear, tell them to at any given time. When you have a scary black man with a funny name in the Oval Office it just makes it that much easier for the sheep to rally around the message.

If we were divided with competing ideas which were intent on making the country a better place but just were different means to try and get there, it would be one thing. But today one side is attempting to act like adults and get this country righted after 8 years of negligence and mismanagement, while the other side shouts hate filled meme's day in and day out and thrives solely on ignorance, fear and obstructionism. Until they decide to grow the fuck up and come to sit at the table with the other adults, idiot racists like Pat Buchanan can seriously shove it where the sun don't shine, his words don't mean jack.[/QUOTE]

Have you met very many of the 'teabaggers'? Have you sat down to discuss why they do what they are doing?

No? Then your just blindly following what the democrats tell you then eh?
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Have you met very many of the 'teabaggers'? Have you sat down to discuss why they do what they are doing?

No? Then your just blindly following what the democrats tell you then eh?[/QUOTE]

WTF? Um, it doesn't take a genius to read their signs, listen to their interviews, ireports and youtube videos. And yes, actually I have an old high school friend on facebook that is a teabagger and read the crap links, posts, videos and musings he put up daily (until I blocked him from my news feed that is.)

I think I can make a pretty good assessment on my own without any Democrats telling me anything. In fact, I haven't even heard any say much of anything regarding those idiots.

Anything else you want to assume and be wrong about?
 
[quote name='lawdood']WTF? Um, it doesn't take a genius to read their signs, listen to their interviews, ireports and youtube videos. And yes, actually I have an old high school friend on facebook that is a teabagger and read the crap links, posts, videos and musings he put up daily (until I blocked him from my news feed that is.)

I think I can make a pretty good assessment on my own without any Democrats telling me anything. In fact, I haven't even heard any say much of anything regarding those idiots.

Anything else you want to assume and be wrong about?[/QUOTE]

Assume and be wrong eh? While you make assumptions on people?

I think the idiot is you. You haven't met the majority of these people yet you seem to know their thoughts.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Assume and be wrong eh? While you make assumptions on people?

I think the idiot is you. You haven't met the majority of these people yet you seem to know their thoughts.[/QUOTE]

Never said that, however you seem to know mine. What I so plainly articulated is that there are plenty of places and ways to see what these people are saying in their own words. If you want to deny that, go right ahead. I'll have a good laugh.

Unless you have something deeper to contribute here or want to "school" me on just what their thoughts are beyond what is actually coming out of their mouths, you can stop replying to me now because I'll be ignoring you anyway.
 
Okay, I'll 'contribute':

Where have these halfwits who were out protesting in DC today been for the last 8 years? Bush spends a trillion on 2 wars and billions on tax cuts for the rich yet not a protest or peep out of the same people going batshit crazy after 8 months of Obama in the White House. If it's all about the deficit where were they for 8 years? Is it because people like Glenn Beck and Lush Limbaugh weren't giving them marching orders to do so then? You betcha.

Is this kind of like how the liberals marched for 8 years against Bush and now that they have a president in the office, they are totally quiet when he does the same policies Bush did?

And in 8 years what excuses will you guys have?

My question made it on Real Time with Bill Maher Overtime last night which asked, "Why is it so much easier to sell war in this supposedly Christian nation than it is something that actually benefits it's citizens like healthcare reform?"

Perhaps because the talking heads at Fox and elsewhere cloak the spending on war in patriotism and fear mongering and the scared and angry tardmonkeys give them a blank check. When someone dare questions the decison to go off and kill people and spend billions they're shouted down as anti-American. Yet, today, those same sheeple carry signs and shout words as anti-American and as hateful as we've ever seen. All because assholes like Beck tell them it's OK.

It just goes to show you the priorities of the moron class in this country that they simply allow themselves to blindly follow whatever message those that play upon their inherent racism, ignorance and fear, tell them to at any given time. When you have a scary black man with a funny name in the Oval Office it just makes it that much easier for the sheep to rally around the message.

It might be because people no longer trust the government, and if you were actually paying attention, you would find people treating republicans with the same lack of respect at town halls too.

And oh look, the race card. Yet you had a president that was voted in with some of the highest ratings ever. Care to explain that?

Oh that's right, that's why democrats try to act like it's a small fringe, even when national polls show Obamas ratings dipping below 50%.

If we were divided with competing ideas which were intent on making the country a better place but just were different means to try and get there, it would be one thing. But today one side is attempting to act like adults and get this country righted after 8 years of negligence and mismanagement, while the other side shouts hate filled meme's day in and day out and thrives solely on ignorance, fear and obstructionism.

Is that right? And the democrat president agrees with you on that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZAA3fFjLY

And telling people to shutup and get out the way is a grown up thing to do? Or even UN BUSH LIKE?? In any way?

I guess the lust of Obama made you forget the patroit act. I suppose as long as it's a democrat in office your fine with partisanship? Because the simple fact is, if a person is in office they should be working for the country, if you don't want them in office don't vote.

Until they decide to grow the up and come to sit at the table with the other adults, idiot racists like Pat Buchanan can seriously shove it where the sun don't shine, his words don't mean jack.

The real americans have been waiting for both parties to grow up for awhile now. One party wants to demonize everyone while one wants to capitalize on this scenario. Your party is nowhere close to the adult table, it's at the kids table peeing in it's pants.
 
[quote name='lawdood']I'll be waiting.


not.[/QUOTE]

Oh really? After all the talk of assumptions and how you don't make them, and about competing ideas and helping the country, in the end you act like a child when an opposing opinion is made?

Yes, cover your ears and run. You are obviously on the adult table.
 
[quote name='lawdood']If you can't see all the lies and distortions coming from the right these days and are just going to play this half assed card you are simply blind because you hate the left that much more.
Instead of parroting the "oh yeah, well they are doing it too!" bullshit again, why don't you give some specific examples and then show us what the real facts and truth are. Because I can come up with a whole list of them coming from the right these days, just on healthcare alone.[/QUOTE]
That's not even close to what I said. I said, (paraphrased) it doesn't matter what Obama does, many of the people who support him call it change. They don't know what change means, and because of this they think he is bringing change when he is really continuing Bush era policies.
Look no further than the million moron march taking place today to see the distortions, lies and garbage coming from ignorant idiots ACCEPTING what they hear as fact from the likes of entertainers such as Beck and Limbaugh. I guess they just think all the hate and fear sounds nice.
You assume a lot of things about people.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Okay, I'll 'contribute':[/quote]

To quote Addison Wilson, You Lie.

Oh that's right, that's why democrats try to act like it's a small fringe, even when national polls show Obamas ratings dipping below 50%.

49% isn't some magic number, wake me if he dips below 30%.

Among other things it is a bit spurious to say one needs to meet every single bagger before you can say anything about them.
 
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It's hard to call that 9/12 march a grassroots movement when its been attributed to and conceived of by Glenn Beck.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Oh really? After all the talk of assumptions and how you don't make them, and about competing ideas and helping the country, in the end you act like a child when an opposing opinion is made?

Yes, cover your ears and run. You are obviously on the adult table.[/QUOTE]

The adult table? You mean like THESE people? This is what you're trying to defend? You're telling me THESE people can have a RATIONAL debate on politics, healthcare, etc? O RLY?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42406957@N04/sets/72157622225596987/show/



and fullmetal, I don't have to ASSUME anything about these people...it's written all over the place by themselves, one only has to open their eyes and read, or if you're so inclined go online and find one of the many countless videos from yesterday where god forbid, these people actually speak.

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']That's not even close to what I said. I said, (paraphrased) it doesn't matter what Obama does, many of the people who support him call it change. They don't know what change means, and because of this they think he is bringing change when he is really continuing Bush era policies.

You assume a lot of things about people.[/QUOTE]

And I'm saying you're talking in complete bullshit generalities and want to see specific facts and examples of this and just how prevalent you claim it to be as opposed to the clowns in the pictures linked above.
 
For the most part they're not very clever or funny (that's why one of the only successful conservative comedians is Dennis Miller) but some of them are worthy of some lulz:

in the zoo theres an african lion, in the white house theres a LYIN AFRICAN

Also, I'm a bit annoyed with the whole Obama-joker thing. The joker is about chaos and destroying the established order, and showing how absurd control really is.

Yet with one hand they're portraying Obama as a guy who is turning this country into a police state with huge government control.

These people need to learn to think critically, and not just do the first thing that pops into their heads.
 
[quote name='IRHari']For the most part they're not very clever or funny (that's why one of the only successful conservative comedians is Dennis Miller) but some of them are worthy of some lulz:

in the zoo theres an african lion, in the white house theres a LYIN AFRICAN

Also, I'm a bit annoyed with the whole Obama-joker thing. The joker is about chaos and destroying the established order, and showing how absurd control really is.

Yet with one hand they're portraying Obama as a guy who is turning this country into a police state with huge government control.

These people need to learn to think critically, and not just do the first thing that pops into their heads.[/QUOTE]

Think critically? These people? :lol:

They do love their meme's...even if they don't really make sense.
 
And it isn't even well done! If you're going to do something stupid like that, at least take the time, i mean wow, I can even see parts of skin that weren't photoshopped over, shameful:
obama-joker-original.jpg


Compare this to the 4chan depiction of Glenn Beck:
glennbeckjoker1.png


or, 4chans depiction of McRage:
Mcjoker.jpg


I rest my case.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Conservatives see it as a privilege, not a fundamental right.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of going off topic, what makes you think forcing someone to provide you health care is a fundamental right? And there are more than just conservatives who have a problem with this way of thinking.
 
The government provides schools, police officers, paramedics, and firefighters, but somehow life saving surgery is off limits? The rich could afford private school, rent a cops, and all that but their tax dollars are being used to provide those services for the poor but it's not like there are massive riots. You guys are being hypocritical.

Why is at right to throw away thousands of lives and trillions of dollars in the name of National Security but it's not OK to spend a trillion to save thousands of lives and avoid the scores of bankruptcies due to medical bills?
 
[quote name='Msut77']To quote Addison Wilson, You Lie.



49% isn't some magic number, wake me if he dips below 30%.

Among other things it is a bit spurious to say one needs to meet every single bagger before you can say anything about them.[/QUOTE]

If I 'lie', then what the hell do you libs call defending ACORN making child porn rings and acting like videos are fake just because a conservative made them?
 
[quote name='lawdood']The adult table? You mean like THESE people? This is what you're trying to defend? You're telling me THESE people can have a RATIONAL debate on politics, healthcare, etc? O RLY?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/42406957@N04/sets/72157622225596987/show/



and fullmetal, I don't have to ASSUME anything about these people...it's written all over the place by themselves, one only has to open their eyes and read, or if you're so inclined go online and find one of the many countless videos from yesterday where god forbid, these people actually speak.[/quote]
You are assuming. You are assuming that all of the 2+ million there are complete idiots, based on the signs that a few of them have.

And I'm saying you're talking in complete bullshit generalities and want to see specific facts and examples of this and just how prevalent you claim it to be as opposed to the clowns in the pictures linked above.
Well considering that Obama keeps lying to people's faces, yet they still say it's change, and cheer, that should be all the evidence you need.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAdJyzRBweY
He talks about the health care industry lobbyists being against this plan. Too bad he is cutting back room deals with them to screw us over. But of course this is change! Yea!
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']You are assuming. You are assuming that all of the 2+ million there are complete idiots, based on the signs that a few of them have.


Well considering that Obama keeps lying to people's faces, yet they still say it's change, and cheer, that should be all the evidence you need.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAdJyzRBweY
He talks about the health care industry lobbyists being against this plan. Too bad he is cutting back room deals with them to screw us over. But of course this is change! Yea![/QUOTE]

Once again, you reply with no facts and examples to back your opinions up. I posted pictures of the idiots and their signs...why don't you link to some of the sane people who were there?

While you're at it, posts links to the facts of these backroom deals. Or do you just parrot what Fox tells you and then relay it here as fact?

You're continually assuming people will take what you say as fact even though you rarely ever back it up with links, facts or examples.
 
that youtube video that fullmetal posted has a misleading headline. They weren't booing FDR, they were booing a guy who yelled something. Remember, these aren't the stupid teabaggers yelling stuff like 'keep your gov't hands off my medicare'
 
[quote name='lawdood']Once again, you reply with no facts and examples to back your opinions up. I posted pictures of the idiots and their signs...why don't you link to some of the sane people who were there?[/quote]
They weren't allowed to bring signs in there. All that I can offer to you is the fact that everyone that I know that still supports Obama has no clue what Obama's change means, also Obama is constantly lying to people's faces.
While you're at it, posts links to the facts of these backroom deals. Or do you just parrot what Fox tells you and then relay it here as fact?
Guess what. Fox isn't talking about it. It's the liberals, and CNN.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/13/internal-memo-confirms-bi_n_258285.html
A memo obtained by the Huffington Post confirms that the White House and the pharmaceutical lobby secretly agreed to precisely the sort of wide-ranging deal that both parties have been denying over the past week.
The memo, which according to a knowledgeable health care lobbyist was prepared by a person directly involved in the negotiations, lists exactly what the White House gave up, and what it got in return.
It says the White House agreed to oppose any congressional efforts to use the government's leverage to bargain for lower drug prices or import drugs from Canada -- and also agreed not to pursue Medicare rebates or shift some drugs from Medicare Part B to Medicare Part D, which would cost Big Pharma billions in reduced reimbursements.
In exchange, the Pharmaceutical Researchers and Manufacturers Association (PhRMA) agreed to cut $80 billion in projected costs to taxpayers and senior citizens over ten years. Or, as the memo says: "Commitment of up to $80 billion, but not more than $80 billion."
Representatives from both the White House and PhRMA, shown the outline, adamantly denied that it reflected reality. PhRMA senior vice president Ken Johnson said that the outline "is simply not accurate." "This memo isn't accurate and does not reflect the agreement with the drug companies," said White House spokesman Reid Cherlin.
Stories in the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times last week indicated that the administration was confirming that such a deal had been made.
Critics on Capitol Hill and online responded with outrage at the reports that Obama had gone behind their backs and sold the reform movement short. Furthermore, the deal seemed to be a betrayal of several promises made by then-Sen. Obama during the presidential campaign, among them that he would use the power of government to drive down the costs of drugs to Medicare and that negotiations would be conducted in the open.
Yourrequest is being processed...
http://firedoglake.com/2009/08/09/democrats-in-pay-for-play-deal-with-phrma/
But, let's do the math. In ten years, $30 billion a year would mean $300 billion in savings. The deal cut by the White House is for $80 billion in savings. So the pharmaceutical industry gets to keep $220 billion for the low low price of $150 million in August to pass health care reform so Rahm Emanual won't be 13-1.
CNN Discussing it:
http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=6809
Air America talking about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uquwxoFJ52M
Air America again talking about it:
http://www.breitbart.tv/charming-li...ama-as-air-america-exposes-fascist-drug-deal/
I've posted these sources multiple times now. I can't help it you haven't been paying attention.
You're continually assuming people will take what you say as fact even though you rarely ever back it up with links, facts or examples.
If you want the facts just ask me. I have them.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']They weren't allowed to bring signs in there. All that I can offer to you is the fact that everyone that I know that still supports Obama has no clue what Obama's change means, also Obama is constantly lying to people's faces.



If you want the facts just ask me. I have them.[/QUOTE]

That first part really isn't good enough. You just keep repeating yourself and have nothing to back it up other than the always helpful "everyone I know..." B.S. FAIL.

As for the second, yes I knew about the possible deal with pharma. That's one possible deal to help get this health care bill passed and may be necessary to make it work, whether we like it or not) but you keep saying "backroom DEALS" and "he's constantly lying!" as if you have countless examples of different deals happening. If so, please post instead of spending so much effort on one example which most people knew about if they had been reading the news (hard to call it "backroom" then isn't it?)
 
[quote name='lawdood']That first part really isn't good enough. You just keep repeating yourself and have nothing to back it up other than the always helpful "everyone I know..." B.S. FAIL.

As for the second, yes I knew about the possible deal with pharma. That's one possible deal to help get this health care bill passed and may be necessary to make it work, whether we like it or not) but you keep saying "backroom DEALS" and "he's constantly lying!" as if you have countless examples of different deals happening. If so, please post instead of spending so much effort on one example which most people knew about if they had been reading the news (hard to call it "backroom" then isn't it?)[/QUOTE]

If you think banning the ability to negociate drug prices, making it harder to get generic drugs, and giving PHARMA most of the money saved is 'necessary to make it work', and isn't a backroom deal, you are either an idiot and/or need to stop sucking Obama's dick.

This kind of 'deal' isn't nessecary, and would only screw over Americans.

Also, isn't this the kind of thing people like you bashed the republicans for doing to ruin the economy (helping out wallstreet with 'deals')? I suppose the same shit is okay as long as it's a democrat to you?
 
[quote name='IRHari']It's hard to call that 9/12 march a grassroots movement when its been attributed to and conceived of by Glenn Beck.[/QUOTE]

Which is the thing, we know the baggers are full of shit and obviously partisan, they know they are full of shit and obviously partisan but they just enjoy pretending otherwise for some reason it is considered rude to point that out.
 
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[quote name='AdultLink']If you think banning the ability to negociate drug prices, making it harder to get generic drugs, and giving PHARMA most of the money saved is 'necessary to make it work', and isn't a backroom deal, you are either an idiot and/or need to stop sucking Obama's dick.

This kind of 'deal' isn't nessecary, and would only screw over Americans.

Also, isn't this the kind of thing people like you bashed the republicans for doing to ruin the economy (helping out wallstreet with 'deals')? I suppose the same shit is okay as long as it's a democrat to you?[/QUOTE]

You who defend the teabaggers like the pix of the ones I linked to are really in no position to try calling other people out as idiots or with homophobic slurs. I'll debate you when you grow up.
 
Did you guys see all those black people protesting at the Shitbaggers rally?

Oh, right. It was like an episode of Friends.
 
[quote name='lawdood']You who defend the teabaggers like the pix of the ones I linked to are really in no position to try calling other people out as idiots or with homophobic slurs. I'll debate you when you grow up.[/QUOTE]

Let's make it about teabaggers, Obviously you have no other argument.

And I think you need some growing up to do. You make assumptions of people, you cover your ears and whine when people tell you the truth... Don't bullshit around me.

BTW, lawdood, it's funny. For a person who constantly bashes the 'teabaggers' for being idiots and not knowing anything, you certainly act like people you hate... You know, assuming, hating people without having the facts, EXACTLY LIKE WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING OTHERS OF.
 
I'm still trying to figure out why I don't see many minorities at these rallies (I was watching Fox's coverage of it). I see a number of minorities at Obama's speeches and town halls, not that many at the 9/12 project. Can someone explain why this is? Maybe someone can post pictures of the token minorities who did show up?
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Let's make it about teabaggers, Obviously you have no other argument.

And I think you need some growing up to do. You make assumptions of people, you cover your ears and whine when people tell you the truth... Don't bullshit around me.

BTW, lawdood, it's funny. For a person who constantly bashes the 'teabaggers' for being idiots and not knowing anything, you certainly act like people you hate... You know, assuming, hating people without having the facts, EXACTLY LIKE WHAT YOU ARE ACCUSING OTHERS OF.[/QUOTE]

OMG!!! YOU GOT ME!!! :roll:

Yeah, because there aren't hundreds of pictures and hours of video all over the web today which don't back me up as to many of the people who were at yesterday's rally. I have evidence and I made my judgment based on it. If you want to continue to call me names instead of finding evidence to refute my claims go ahead, this will be the last time I respond to you anyway.
 
To call you names I would have to label you as something. What I was doing was accusing you of having an attitude (Esp. one as twisted as yours) toward the scenario. If your going to argue, at the very least, have your arguments correct.

To call you names I would need to say something directed personally at you.
 
I'll repeat myself. Why is it OK to spend tax dollars on schools, fire department, and police stations, but not hospitals and health care?

Why is it OK for our country to toss a trillion down the drain in Iraq but health care is off limits?
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'll repeat myself. Why is it OK to spend tax dollars on schools, fire department, and police stations, but not hospitals and health care?[/quote]

Those are mostly funded and maintained on local and state levels.
I'll be the first to say that the Federal government needs to keep it's hands off the schools. NCLB proves that.
I wouldn't be completely against a locally organized, funded and ran health care plan.

Why is it OK for our country to toss a trillion down the drain in Iraq but health care is off limits?

It's not. Several of us don't think it is.
Hell, I'm one of the few people I know who had reservations about going into Afghanistan when that went down.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Those are mostly funded and maintained on local and state levels.
I'll be the first to say that the Federal government needs to keep it's hands off the schools. NCLB proves that.
I wouldn't be completely against a locally organized, funded and ran health care plan.



It's not. Several of us don't think it is.
Hell, I'm one of the few people I know who had reservations about going into Afghanistan when that went down.[/QUOTE]

Afghanistan? You know Osama was hiding in the hills and you had reservations about that? If anything, Iraq should've been the place we stayed out of but we really needed to go into Afghanistan. That was truly the place we needed to pour our resources in and now you want to act like Afghanistan was the mistake.

The state and local governments are just extensions of the federal government. How many states have drinking ages under 21? How many states don't have seat belt laws? How many states can you blow a .09 and not get a DUI? You know why? The federal government said it would withhold highway and transportation dollars if they didn't pass the laws. States have been the federal government's bitches since 1865.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Afghanistan? You know Osama was hiding in the hills and you had reservations about that? If anything, Iraq should've been the place we stayed out of but we really needed to go into Afghanistan. That was truly the place we needed to pour our resources in and now you want to act like Afghanistan was the mistake.[/quote]

"now".

No. I felt it was the wrong move then. I felt Iraq was the wrong move as well. I disagreed with both and was fairly vocal about it amongst friends and family. The money spent in both of those places could have done wonders here at home... and has been wasted there.

The state and local governments are just extensions of the federal government. How many states have drinking ages under 21? How many states don't have seat belt laws? How many states can you blow a .09 and not get a DUI? You know why? The federal government said it would withhold highway and transportation dollars if they didn't pass the laws. States have been the federal government's bitches since 1865.

You're right. And that needs to end. What's your point?
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'll repeat myself. Why is it OK to spend tax dollars on schools, fire department, and police stations, but not hospitals and health care?

Why is it OK for our country to toss a trillion down the drain in Iraq but health care is off limits?[/QUOTE]

The problem I think is government spending. IMO:

1. Get rid of all the added crap the government added, and throw the current politicians out.
2. All the added unneccesary expenses would more then pay for universal healthcare.

The problem is you have politicians with no sense of reality on money spending. it WOULD be a good idea, but these politicians will fuck it up.

It's like building a nuclear power plant, and letting george w bush handle the reactor cores.....
 
[quote name='UncleBob']"now".

No. I felt it was the wrong move then. I felt Iraq was the wrong move as well. I disagreed with both and was fairly vocal about it amongst friends and family. The money spent in both of those places could have done wonders here at home... and has been wasted there.



You're right. And that needs to end. What's your point?[/QUOTE]

The point is that your tax dollars go to firemen and police officers that are there just in case something bad happens.

Wouldn't you get pissed if you had to declare bankruptcy because the fire department charged you 10 grand to save your house from burning down? Wouldn't you get even more pissed if conservatives sat there and said that they wouldn't pay a dime towards funding public fire departments?

What if your house got broke into and the cops tracked down your stuff but wouldn't release it until you paid up? Wouldn't you be a little pissed?

What if everyone had to pay private school prices to send their kid to school? Yes. Some people can afford the best but a basic education has been to been deemed to be everyone's right.

The government is not saying that everyone will get a prime appointment at Mayo but everyone should be able to see a doctor and not have to worry about letting the light bill slip. Americans shouldn't have to choose between paying their mortgage and a hospital bill.

Will the government screw it up? Possibly. I'd still rather have something than nothing. We'll never get anything with the attitude that the government will screw this up. Our great great grandkids will still be fighting over it if that's the attitude that prevails.
 
[quote name='depascal22']The point is that your tax dollars go to firemen and police officers that are there just in case something bad happens.
[...]
Will the government screw it up? Possibly. I'd still rather have something than nothing. We'll never get anything with the attitude that the government will screw this up. Our great great grandkids will still be fighting over it if that's the attitude that prevails.[/QUOTE]

So... umm... does this mean you're going to become a proponent of how awesome our current law enforcement system is compared to nothing?

Does this mean, next time someone starts a thread about a police beating or such, you're going to chime in and say "Hey, don't complain, we could have no police protection!"
 
I might not like cops but I'm still calling them if someone has a gun to a family member's head. I'm still calling them if my car gets stolen. If a family member gets raped, I'm telling her to call the police and file a report. Don't be a retard.
 
Oh, so you're deferring to the power of a small governmently run pseudo-militia group?

Commies do that, you know. Big fat fascist commies who think everyone needs to have a mustache and wear white berets.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I might not like cops but I'm still calling them if someone has a gun to a family member's head. I'm still calling them if my car gets stolen. If a family member gets raped, I'm telling her to call the police and file a report. Don't be a retard.[/QUOTE]

So, if someone proposed turning control of 1/5th of our nation's economy to the cops, would you be okay with that?
 
[quote name='Strell']Oh, so you're deferring to the power of a small governmently run pseudo-militia group?

Commies do that, you know. Big fat fascist commies who think everyone needs to have a mustache and wear white berets.[/QUOTE]

I'll always prefer power to be held locally rather than from afar. It's easier to move to a different town - or even a different state - than it is to move to a different country. It's easier to make change locally than it is to make change nationally. Hell, our votes for president don't even count. Yet, only about 1,000 people voted for mayor in my small town. Much easier to make changes locally.

Hell, let's say worst came to absolute worst and you were going to band together some folks to overthrow a crazy government leader. Would you rather go against the President and the military or the Mayor and his cops?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'll always prefer power to be held locally rather than from afar. It's easier to move to a different town - or even a different state - than it is to move to a different country. It's easier to make change locally than it is to make change nationally. Hell, our votes for president don't even count. Yet, only about 1,000 people voted for mayor in my small town. Much easier to make changes locally.

Hell, let's say worst came to absolute worst and you were going to band together some folks to overthrow a crazy government leader. Would you rather go against the President and the military or the Mayor and his cops?[/QUOTE]

If you and a band of armed crazies attempted a coup at city hall, do you think the governor and President would just sit there and act like it's a local issue?

There is basically no distinction between cities anymore. Every city has a Wal-Mart. The speed limit in nearly every town in America is 30 on the city streets, 45 on the highways, and 55 on the insterstates within city limits. The mayor of Racine has basically the same powers and problems as the mayor of Boise. The scale is different but the problems are the same. Every city has a drug problem whether it be exstacy, crystal meth, or heroin. Every city and town in America has a prostitution problem.

Every city or township has the same powers to deal with these problems whether they be in Alaska or Florida.

Local governments are beholden to counties which are beholden to the state and then the feds. There isn't a distinction anymore. Certain levels provide services but the levels above them basically tell them how to do it.

If local and state governments are the only ones that provide education, how did Bush's No Child Left Behind have any effect?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I agree with you.

I'm saying it shouldn't be that way. Localize the issues, localize the power, localize the money...[/QUOTE]

That's impossible as long as Americans don't produce anything and you can blame big business for that.
 
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