Is being in the U.S. illegally right or wrong?

[needler420]

[quote name='depascal22']What health plan are they on? If anything the hospital pays for it out of pocket. Guess what, many US citizens don't pay for their health care either. You think ghetto or trailer park fools pay for their ER visits?[/QUOTE]


You just proved my point that its taxpayers dollars.

 

[depascal22]

[quote name='needler420']You just proved my point that its taxpayers dollars.[/QUOTE]

No. It's people that actually pay their health bills' dollars. Hence the need for heathcare reform. I don't know why you seem to think that hospitals are subsidized by the federal government other than by Medicare and Medicaid payments.

 

[needler420]

[quote name='depascal22']No. It's people that actually pay their health bills' dollars. Hence the need for heathcare reform. I don't know why you seem to think that hospitals are subsidized by the federal government other than by Medicare and Medicaid payments.[/QUOTE]


Medicaid is for legals without private health regardless it still comes out of taxpayers money.

Point blank any time a hospital lends out charity aid it comes out of an American citizens pocket and lots of time willing but more often then not its not willing.

 

[Clak]

[quote name='UncleBob']Well, you've asked a tricky question. You want people to ignore the legal aspect of the situation. However, it's hard to ignore that, considering everything that has to do with immigration is based around our legal system. Face it, the lines on a map don't typically exist in real life - if you ignore the legal aspects of it, your question boils down to is it right or wrong with standing here vs. standing five feet further north?[/QUOTE]
I want to know your ethics man, it's that simple. If you want to say that doing anyhting illegal is wrong, ok. I'm still not interested about that fact that it's illegal though.

Let me just say on the issue of legality that there have been plenty of things that I think are wrong and legal, and plenty of things which I don't think are wrong yet are illegal. That's what I'm getting at, what you think for yourself is wrong, not what the law says.

 

[Clak]

I knew how this would turn out and yet I made the thread anyway. It isn't even about the opinions expressed, it's that no one wants to dig any deeper than the fact that it's illegal. I had hoped for an honest philosophical debate, but I can see that isn't happening.

 

[tivo]

[quote name='Clak']I knew how this would turn out and yet I made the thread anyway. It isn't even about the opinions expressed, it's that no one wants to dig any deeper than the fact that it's illegal. I had hoped for an honest philosophical debate, but I can see that isn't happening.[/QUOTE]

you just want people to ignore rational and go off feelings and if people don't then you ignore them. Look what I said earlier. I brought up reasons why illegal immigration is wrong and you were so close minded you couldn't even muster a response.

 

[speedracer]

[quote name='Clak']I knew how this would turn out and yet I made the thread anyway. It isn't even about the opinions expressed, it's that no one wants to dig any deeper than the fact that it's illegal. I had hoped for an honest philosophical debate, but I can see that isn't happening.[/QUOTE]
There's nothing wrong with illegal immigration at all. Capitalists should unabashedly adore it because the free flow of labor is exactly as important as the free flow of capital. Originalists should love it because it is literally what our country was founded on. Groups throughout history that have been shit on for being illegal should appreciate and understand it which would include Irish, Italians, Germans, African anything, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans (hell all Asians, who are we bullshitting), early Brits (indentured servitude for the mothering win amirite?), every flavor of goddamn Slav... who did I miss?

The only people that have ever hated it are the nationalists. And that's because they're stupid (and usually poor) and gullible and easily used by politicians. It isn't about the law. Nationalists are proud to know less about our legal system than the guy taking the citizenship test. Anyone willing to put money on thrust or Knoell outscoring the median on the test?

OMG I hate brown people too, stealinz ur health care. Quick, how many countries south of America in our hemisphere are in the top 10 in illegal immigration per year?

The first, dominant in the 19th century, treated immigrants as in transition; in other words, as prospective citizens. As soon as people declared their intention to become citizens, they received multiple low-cost benefits, including the eligibility for free homesteads in the Homestead Act of 1869, and in many states, the right to vote.

OMG ORIGINAL INTENT ALL OF YOU HATE AMERICA AND KITTENS AND FREEDOM GO BACK TO COMMUNIST ROMANIA

edit: I forgot Jews. How ridiculous. I wouldn't trust someone that forgets Jews, especially when his own daughter is one. I'm deporting her as we speak.

 

[Knoell]

If you guys are arguing that there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration then you are arguing for open borders, and simple as that open borders will not work. Most of you have already acknowledged this. I don't see why you are restarting the same discussion.

 

[speedracer]

[quote name='Knoell']If you guys are arguing that there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration then you are arguing for open borders, and simple as that open borders will not work. Most of you have already acknowledged this. I don't see why you are restarting the same discussion.[/QUOTE]
Let's try the old end around. You're a freedom loving capitalist, right? Why should capital be able to traverse borders with no penalty or tariff, but labor has to wait decades?

 

[MadForMadden]

If we open the borders, or loosen the laws on immigration then it's going to overcrowd our country even more than it already is. I think we need to let states make their own laws concerning immigration without the Federal government butting its ugly head in.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='Knoell']If you guys are arguing that there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration then you are arguing for open borders, and simple as that open borders will not work. Most of you have already acknowledged this. I don't see why you are restarting the same discussion.[/QUOTE]



Nobody in this thread has argued that there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration or that they want open borders, just empathy for most of the people who sneak in since it is impossible for them to get in legally.

 

[UncleBob]

[quote name='depascal22']No. It's people that actually pay their health bills' dollars. Hence the need for heathcare reform. I don't know why you seem to think that hospitals are subsidized by the federal government other than by Medicare and Medicaid payments.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, we need to force everyone with money to pay into the health care system so that everyone with money can stop paying for the health care of those without money! Get on the bus, folks!

[quote name='Sporadic']

Nobody in this thread has argued that there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration or that they want open borders, just empathy for most of the people who sneak in since it is impossible for them to get in legally.[/QUOTE]

Impossible?

[quote name='depascal22']Cleaning up people's shit, picking strawberries in 100 degree weather, watching rich people's bratty undisciplined kids, roofing, painting, digging ditches, stuff like that.[/QUOTE]

I just don't understand this logic. We should allow illegal immigration because, otherwise, what workers would we pay substandard wages for poor work conditions to?

[quote name='camoor']You can lead a horse to water...[/QUOTE]

So, aside from the legality of it, what's the difference if I park in the road in front of your house or five feet over on your lawn? Then, tomorrow, I park five feet closer? Eventually, I'm parked with my bumper about three inches from your porch. What's the difference?

 

[tivo]

[quote name='speedracer']Let's try the old end around. You're a freedom loving capitalist, right? Why should capital be able to traverse borders with no penalty or tariff, but labor has to wait decades?[/QUOTE]

Free trade allows for increased competition which then spurs improvements, innovation, etc.. Employment should also be allowed to flow freely for the same reasons. However, in the 21st century, we have to be careful about undocumented individuals and illegal citizens from a security, fiscal, etc. standpoint. Plus letting in unskilled workers isn't the best policy for a country.

If we closed our porous border with Mexico, we would be better able to increase the number of legal immigrants from Asia, Africa, Europe, etc. Imagine what thousands of doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers, etc. from overseas every year could do to improve this country. Instead, we have people sitting outside Home Depot waiting to dig ditches. Illegal immigration is unfair to all the people who have been honestly waiting to enter the legal way and to the people who will never get in.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='UncleBob']Impossible?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

http://reason.org/news/show/1003252.html

[quote name='tivo']If we closed our porous border with Mexico, we would be better able to increase the number of legal immigrants from Asia, Africa, Europe, etc. Imagine what thousands of doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers, etc. from overseas every year could do to improve this country. Instead, we have people sitting outside Home Depot waiting to dig ditches. Illegal immigration is unfair to all the people who have been honestly waiting to enter the legal way and to the people who will never get in.[/QUOTE]

Again

[citation needed]

 

[UncleBob]

[quote name='Sporadic']Yes.

http://reason.org/news/show/1003252.html[/QUOTE]

I will admit, the bar is high, but you seem to have a different definition of "impossible" than I do. Or what the dictionary does.

 

[tivo]

[quote name='Sporadic']

Again

[citation needed][/QUOTE]

You're right. There's no reason why we can't expedite the process of legal immigration now. however, if we were to kick out the roughly 11 million illegal immigrants (with ~75% coming from mexico and central america) it isn't too much to fathom that we would then allow more legal immigrants with a more even distribution from across the world (Europe, Africa, Asia, etc.) and that skilled professionals are placed over non skilled individuals.

Listen. You can be obstinate to illegal immigration reform but at least KNOW what you're arguing against. Wikipedia
- The CBO said that "The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants"
- identity theft
- gang and drug violence
- numerous negative environmental effects
- slavery, prostitution, unfit work conditions, etc.
- A study "has shown that illegal immigration had a substantial effect on reducing the economic status of U.S. poor while benefiting middle class individuals and wealthier Americans." "further widening the socioeconomic gulf between rich and poor"

And that's just to start, imagine long term. No citations needed for them.

 

[IRHari]

[quote name='tivo']- The CBO said that "The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants"[/QUOTE]

That's very interesting, but this guy tivo asks a great question:

[quote name='tivo']Its disturbing how much faith you have in it and now how willing you are to disregard anything that could suggest predictions the plan. Do you trust the CBO?[/QUOTE]

 

[speedracer]

[quote name='tivo']Free trade allows for increased competition which then spurs improvements, innovation, etc.. Employment should also be allowed to flow freely for the same reasons.[/quote]
Groovy. Thank you for acknowledging that. Sometimes I feel like I have to pull teeth to get even that one.

However, in the 21st century, we have to be careful about undocumented individuals and illegal citizens from a security, fiscal, etc. standpoint. Plus letting in unskilled workers isn't the best policy for a country.

I just can't get riled up about the security of illegals when we give monthly passes into America to anyone that wants one. There's a reason why the 9/11 shitbags weren't illegal. Why even bother when a visa is so easy? And maybe it's because I'm in a sanctuary city in a border state, but when I see the mountain of disposable income generated because people use illegal labor to lower costs, I just can't fight that hard against it.

My great grandparents didn't wait. Were they a leech on the system? I don't know, probably at some point. But their great grand kid has a business degree and served in the American military and married the grand daughter of sort-of-illegal Germans Jews who has two degrees and between us we pay an metric assload of taxes. So think of them maybe as a forward investment?

To better fit Clak's idea (which was a good one): Does illegal immigration make us less safe? I say definitely not. Does it make us fiscal sense? I don't know, but in the wider picture of capitalism and our American philosophy on life, it seems to be a cornerstone. So much so that our most prized national piece of art is a gigantic statue meant to guide immigrants towards us. That speaks to me.

If we closed our porous border with Mexico, we would be better able to increase the number of legal immigrants from Asia, Africa, Europe, etc. Imagine what thousands of doctors, engineers, nurses, teachers, etc. from overseas every year could do to improve this country. Instead, we have people sitting outside Home Depot waiting to dig ditches. Illegal immigration is unfair to all the people who have been honestly waiting to enter the legal way and to the people who will never get in.

A very large majority of immigrants cannot get licensed in America without extensive continuing education, so it's not like we're missing out totally. And there is the H1B back door.

 

[Knoell]

LOL 1 million legal immigrants a year and you say it is impossible to come here legally. I am sure those 1 million have something to say about that.

Nope securing even just our southern border would do nothing to impede illegal immigration, and allow more law abiding people who are waiting legally to come here. Not at all.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='UncleBob']I will admit, the bar is high, but you seem to have a different definition of "impossible" than I do. Or what the dictionary does.[/QUOTE]

Who's sneaking in? Uneducated, unskilled workers.

You are an unskilled worker hoping to make a better life for yourself in America. "Unlike previous periods in our history, there is virtually no process for unskilled immigrants without family relations in the U.S. to apply for permanent legal residence," the chart by Reason Foundation and the National Foundation for American Policy states.

Unskilled workers just have to hope they get lucky. That's because only 10,000 green cards are given to these workers each year and "the wait time approaches infinity."

That sounds pretty impossible.

[quote name='tivo']however, if we were to kick out the roughly 11 million illegal immigrants (with ~75% coming from mexico and central america) it isn't too much to fathom that we would then allow more legal immigrants with a more even distribution from across the world (Europe, Africa, Asia, etc.)[/QUOTE]

So, again, this is just horseshit you and knoell imagined up? (about that if there were less illegal immigrants sneaking in, we would let more people in legally) Because both of you have said that multiple times without anything to back it up.

 

[Knoell]

[quote name='Sporadic']

So, again, this is just horseshit you and knoell imagined up? (about that if there were less illegal immigrants sneaking in, we would let more people in legally) Because both of you have said that multiple times without anything to back it up.[/QUOTE]

It is common sense, why do you think it takes a life time for a mexican to be a legal immigrant? Part of the reason is that there are so many coming legally, but if there weren't any coming illegally then they would be able to accept more legally. Whether you believe it or not, illegal immigration has an impact on legal immigration.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='Knoell']It is common sense[/QUOTE]

It's not. I have never heard of a sliding scale regarding immigration. "Oh, illegal immigration is (estimated to be) down, let in another 15,000 people" "Oh, illegal immigration is (estimated to be) up, time to cut the number of people allowed in to 25,000"

[quote name='Knoell']why do you think it takes a life time for a mexican to be a legal immigrant?[/QUOTE]

Because it's the truth unless they are skilled and already have family here? Did you read the link I posted?

[quote name='Knoell']Part of the reason is that there are so many coming legally, but if there weren't any coming illegally then they would be able to accept more legally. Whether you believe it or not, illegal immigration has an impact on legal immigration.[/QUOTE]

You can repeat this as many times as you want but it doesn't make it true. You haven't provided one thing that even points to that being true.

 

[Clak]

[quote name='Knoell']If you guys are arguing that there is nothing wrong with illegal immigration then you are arguing for open borders, and simple as that open borders will not work. Most of you have already acknowledged this. I don't see why you are restarting the same discussion.[/QUOTE]
All I wanted to do was discuss ethics, how something is right or wrong, I could have used any sort of issue, I just knew illegal immigration was a good fit. I just wanted people to state their beliefs and give logical explanations for it. Not just "it's illegal so it's wrong."

Anyway, carry on.

 

[UncleBob]

[quote name='Sporadic']Who's sneaking in? Uneducated, unskilled workers.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps they should pick up some books and learn something? Or is that impossible for them as well?

 

[dopa345]

It's wrong because it's unfair to the thousands of people trying to enter and reside in the country legally who want just as much to provide for a better life for themselves and their families.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='UncleBob']Perhaps they should pick up some books and learn something? Or is that impossible for them as well?[/QUOTE]

Oh, why didn't I or the people sneaking into this country think about that? Here they are risking their lives walking through the desert or swimming across rivers or paying thousands of dollars for somebody to smuggle them into the country...when the only thing they had to do to get in was pick up a book!

 

[SpazX]

They can get plenty of books at their local library. There are books that cover a variety of interests and many different genres, so they can both learn and be entertained.

 

[UncleBob]

[quote name='Sporadic']Oh, why didn't I or the people sneaking into this country think about that? Here they are risking their lives walking through the desert or swimming across rivers or paying thousands of dollars for somebody to smuggle them into the country...when the only thing they had to do to get in was pick up a book! [/QUOTE]

Face it, sneaking into the country illegally is just the "get rich quick" scheme they fool themselves into. Education is a slower route, yes, but it's not only more rewarding for the individual involved, but it's better for the greater community.

 

[mr_burnzz]

I used to be illegal! My situation was very very unusual and quite lengthy so I won't go into that story but I used to think that illegal immigrants were okay. They take jobs no one wants and pretty much stay out of the way. It never affected me personally so I never really thought too much about it. That was until I started to work at the hospital. Shit, the amount of people that come in here and get free healthcare is astounding. These people can not speak of lick of english and we are forced to treat them because they are sick and that is the law. We can not turn them down! The behavior of some of these individuals are baffling. Some think they are paying out of pocket and act like the ing king of the world. We had one patient some time ago and she was the bitchiest of the bitch! I am telling you the hospital was so fed up with her, her attitude and how much free health care we were providing, it was CHEAPER to pay for a plane ticket to get her out! Seriously, people here paid to get her back to her own country.

A hospital nearby had to close down a entire unit consisting of like 40-50 (some working there for 30+ years) employees because of the lack of money. And this was because of all the free healthcare being given out to illegals and people with no insurance. Healthcare workers in my area are taking a big hit and I am being affected.

So yeah, illegal immigrants are literally "stealing" from us in this way and many others. Something definitely needs to be done with the borders.

 

[Knoell]

[quote name='mr_burnzz']I used to be illegal! My situation was very very unusual and quite lengthy so I won't go into that story but I used to think that illegal immigrants were okay. They take jobs no one wants and pretty much stay out of the way. It never affected me personally so I never really thought too much about it. That was until I started to work at the hospital. Shit, the amount of people that come in here and get free healthcare is astounding. These people can not speak of lick of english and we are forced to treat them because they are sick and that is the law. We can not turn them down! The behavior of some of these individuals are baffling. Some think they are paying out of pocket and act like the ing king of the world. We had one patient some time ago and she was the bitchiest of the bitch! I am telling you the hospital was so fed up with her, her attitude and how much free health care we were providing, it was CHEAPER to pay for a plane ticket to get her out! Seriously, people here paid to get her back to her own country.

A hospital nearby had to close down a entire unit consisting of like 40-50 (some working there for 30+ years) employees because of the lack of money. And this was because of all the free healthcare being given out to illegals and people with no insurance. Healthcare workers in my area are taking a big hit and I am being affected.

So yeah, illegal immigrants are literally "stealing" from us in this way and many others. Something definitely needs to be done with the borders.[/QUOTE]

You know they are going to say "cool story bro" and then go on to say "since legal american citizens go to get free health care in hospitals it negates the criticism that illegals do it." 1 wrong + 1 wrong = its ok. They all live by that logic.

 

[depascal22]

mr burnzz, you're a horrible healthcare professional. It's our job to take care of sick people. Period. Doesn't matter if they're legal, illegal, rich, poor, white, or black.

That hospital closed down because small local hospitals aren't profitable in the 21st century. Hospitals are private entities that are entitled to make as much money as they can since we can't have anything close to socialized medicine. Go back and ask Knoell why we can't have anything nice now.

 

[mr_burnzz]

[quote name='Knoell']You know they are going to say "cool story bro" and then go on to say "since legal american citizens go to get free health care in hospitals it negates the criticism that illegals do it." 1 wrong + 1 wrong = its ok. They all live by that logic.[/QUOTE]

haha, thanks for the heads up.

 

[depascal22]

[quote name='mr_burnzz']haha, thanks for the heads up.[/QUOTE]

Nah, it's much better to make fun of our patients. Stupid illegals, right? HIPAA doesn't apply to them right?

 

[mr_burnzz]

[quote name='depascal22']mr burnzz, you're a horrible healthcare professional. It's our job to take care of sick people. Period. Doesn't matter if they're legal, illegal, rich, poor, white, or black.

That hospital closed down because small local hospitals aren't profitable in the 21st century. Hospitals are private entities that are entitled to make as much money as they can since we can't have anything close to socialized medicine. Go back and ask Knoell why we can't have anything nice now.[/QUOTE]

If you think I am bad, I suggest you stay in the most tip top health for the rest of your life and to never be a patient. Some things I see and hear confuse and disgust ME.

 

[depascal22]

[quote name='mr_burnzz']If you think I am bad, I suggest you stay in the most tip top health for the rest of your life and to never be a patient. Some things I see and hear confuse and disgust ME.[/QUOTE]

Dude, I've worked in hospitals for the last 13 years and volunteered for three before that.

They're hospitals. People come here to die and to be saved. They also come to be treated like human beings and not pieces of shit or numbers on a ing spread sheet.

Can't wait for Knoell to come in with his bullshit brigade to tell us that hospitals are so much worse just because illegals go there. Dude couldn't run a profitable lemonade stand but he's about to tell us how to run the entire American health care system based on No illegals = mo profit.

 

[mykevermin]

I've been to Camden. I advocate we put a secure border around New Jersey.

 

[Knoell]

[quote name='depascal22']Nah, it's much better to make fun of our patients. Stupid illegals, right? HIPAA doesn't apply to them right?[/QUOTE]

Who is making fun? There is a law that illegal immigrants are illegal. People who need health care who are getting access to it is not stupid at all. What is stupid is the blatent ignorance of our government to ignore a law that is supposed to protect people. Being an illegal immigrant is not normally a healthy lifestyle. There is a process set up for legal immigrants to gain access to this country. If you are arguing that immigration limits should be increased or there should be none, then fine work to change the law. In the meantime the law should be enforced.

I cant wait for depascal to come in here and try to tell us that illegal immigration has no effect on hospitals.

 

[thrustbucket]

Eh. There really is no front door to immigrate outside of marrying a citizen and the green card lottery - which is silly. That's why people do it illegally.

It's actually easier to get and smoke weed legally in this country than it is to immigrate legally. Think about that.

Yes, being an illegal immigrant is wrong, in the same way a starving person stealing an apple from a fruit stand is wrong. Would I do it under the same circumstance? Probably. Sometimes wrong becomes survival. But it's still wrong.

That being said, doing something wrong for survival reasons doesn't excuse their wrongness. It should grant you some compassion when the consequence wagon comes around, but it doesn't excuse anything.

This is why we absolutely must reform immigration from the bottom up. We must let people in our country willing to work shitty jobs - but we need to make sure they are documented with some degree of filter. People will stop sneaking in when the process to come in becomes relatively easy if you are a good person with no criminal record. At that point, it will be easier to label those that sneak in as true criminals with harmful intent.

 

[dohdough]

All this parroting of "no criminal record" is highly dubious. A kid gets arrested for skateboarding: criminal record. Shoplifts a candybar: criminal record. Jaywalking: criminal record. Being gay: criminal record. Oral sex: criminal record. Anal sex: criminal record.

 

[thrustbucket]

[quote name='dohdough']All this parroting of "no criminal record" is highly dubious. A kid gets arrested for skateboarding: criminal record. Shoplifts a candybar: criminal record. Jaywalking: criminal record. Being gay: criminal record. Oral sex: criminal record. Anal sex: criminal record.[/QUOTE]

When you actually see a persons criminal record, a decision can be made about it. Just "having" a criminal record does not have to mean automatic disqualification. I think when people usually say "criminal record", they are referring to people that are known rapists, murderers, child molesters etc.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='thrustbucket']When you actually see a persons criminal record, a decision can be made about it. Just "having" a criminal record does not have to mean automatic disqualification. I think when people usually say "criminal record", they are referring to people that are known rapists, murderers, child molesters etc.[/QUOTE]
Oh, you mean like how Latinos aren't going to be racially profiled in Arizona?

 

[thrustbucket]

[quote name='dohdough']Oh, you mean like how Latinos aren't going to be racially profiled in Arizona?[/QUOTE]

First of all, what in the world does that have to do with trying to keep immigrants with serious criminal records from entering?

Second of all - they always have been racially profiled. Contrary to what you may have heard, there is only conjecture and no evidence that any proposed law will make that worse.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='thrustbucket']First of all, what in the world does that have to do with trying to keep immigrants with serious criminal records from entering?[/quote]
Crossing the border without permission: criminal. Level of crime: serious.

Second of all - they always have been racially profiled. Contrary to what you may have heard, there is only conjecture and no evidence that any proposed law will make that worse.

That's kind of the point. The fact that it exists at it's currently high level is reprehensible to begin with and to "codify" it is even worse. So what's your point beyond saying, "They're already racially profiled so having a law allowing it won't make a difference."

That aside, you seem pretty casual about racial profiling, which is pretty ing racist.

 

[Knoell]

What happens when the criminals sneak across still? Think they will find one needle in a haystack better than a thousand?

Also what makes you think the full potential of illegal immigration would be eased by making the process easier? If it becomes known it is easy to get into the US, just get in line that line will be filled, much as it is now. And then illegal immigration will still occur.

Think of a line to get into an extremely popular club, everyone thinks it is the best club ever. Say the line is packed with a thousand people and alot of people never even get in all night. Theres a major problem in which the club has a back door that alot of people keep sneaking in. The club owner decides to take care of the problem by opening a second, and third door to let people in, after all more people paying means more business right? Problem is that news spreads that this very popular club is a lot easier to get into, and the three lines build back up, and the back door is still open. So he didn't really fix the problem of people not paying to get in, he just fixed the problem of letting too few people in.

There isn't a limited amount of people who want into this country, there is only the motivated and the unmotivated. Making the process easier is a great idea, but we should be weary that it will motivate people, so we should probably shut the back door.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='thrustbucket']Eh. There really is no front door to immigrate outside of marrying a citizen and the green card lottery - which is silly. That's why people do it illegally.

It's actually easier to get and smoke weed legally in this country than it is to immigrate legally. Think about that.

Yes, being an illegal immigrant is wrong, in the same way a starving person stealing an apple from a fruit stand is wrong. Would I do it under the same circumstance? Probably. Sometimes wrong becomes survival. But it's still wrong.

That being said, doing something wrong for survival reasons doesn't excuse their wrongness. It should grant you some compassion when the consequence wagon comes around, but it doesn't excuse anything.

This is why we absolutely must reform immigration from the bottom up. We must let people in our country willing to work shitty jobs - but we need to make sure they are documented with some degree of filter. People will stop sneaking in when the process to come in becomes relatively easy if you are a good person with no criminal record. At that point, it will be easier to label those that sneak in as true criminals with harmful intent.[/QUOTE]

Wow, a great post by thrustbucket? Never thought I would see the day.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Knoell']What happens when the criminals sneak across still? Think they will find one needle in a haystack better than a thousand?[/quote]
According to you, they're already criminals the moment they cross the border, so what's the point in operating on a scenario in which thisis decriminalized?

Also what makes you think the full potential of illegal immigration would be eased by making the process easier? If it becomes known it is easy to get into the US, just get in line that line will be filled, much as it is now. And then illegal immigration will still occur.

It won't be completely mitigated and it still won't be easy. The ability of non-North/Central/South Americans to immigrate is still a very economic one. The ones with economic means and/or the education will still be able to do the same as now. While this would greatly lesson the need for smugglers, those that can't immigrate still won't be able to.

Think of a line to get into an extremely popular club, everyone thinks it is the best club ever. Say the line is packed with a thousand people and alot of people never even get in all night. Theres a major problem in which the club has a back door that alot of people keep sneaking in. The club owner decides to take care of the problem by opening a second, and third door to let people in, after all more people paying means more business right? Problem is that news spreads that this very popular club is a lot easier to get into, and the three lines build back up, and the back door is still open. So he didn't really fix the problem of people not paying to get in, he just fixed the problem of letting too few people in.

Holy crap, you have absolutely no idea how a club works. Either way, paying a cover to get into a club is icing on the cake compared to the money made at the bar. Even if clubs let people in free, you'd be surprised at how many people actually do, they make at least 4x the cover at the bar. And you'd be surprised at how far a club would go past capacity even after that fire in RI, which makes this an even worse analogy because we're not even close to capacity on anything except the privatized prison system that happens to be constantly expanding.

There isn't a limited amount of people who want into this country, there is only the motivated and the unmotivated. Making the process easier is a great idea, but we should be weary that it will motivate people, so we should probably shut the back door.

Actually, there IS a limited amount of people that want to immigrate to this country. Do you Really think that that 5.7 billion people want to move to this country? You're a ing idiot.

 

[Knoell]

[quote name='dohdough']According to you, they're already criminals the moment they cross the border, so what's the point in operating on a scenario in which thisis decriminalized?


It won't be completely mitigated and it still won't be easy. The ability of non-North/Central/South Americans to immigrate is still a very economic one. The ones with economic means and/or the education will still be able to do the same as now. While this would greatly lesson the need for smugglers, those that can't immigrate still won't be able to.



Holy crap, you have absolutely no idea how a club works. Either way, paying a cover to get into a club is icing on the cake compared to the money made at the bar. Even if clubs let people in free, you'd be surprised at how many people actually do, they make at least 4x the cover at the bar. And you'd be surprised at how far a club would go past capacity even after that fire in RI, which makes this an even worse analogy because we're not even close to capacity on anything except the privatized prison system that happens to be constantly expanding.


Actually, there IS a limited amount of people that want to immigrate to this country. Do you Really think that that 5.7 billion people want to move to this country? You're a ing idiot.[/QUOTE]

I was going to respond at lengh to each one of your ridiculous statements but why bother.

1. When have I said or even implied that all illegal immigrants are criminals? This seems to be a theme with you guys. You disagree? Your Racist.

2. What are you talking about? You think the ones that travel illegally now have the economic means, and just like being smuggled/sold in?

3.

4. What I mean by saying immigration isn't limited is not that every person in the world would come here. But that there is not a set number of people right now waiting to get in. The formula goes more like this: people waiting on a list + people motivated to go illegally + people who want to come but are not motivated yet or demotivated from going - people who don't want to go = Potential immigration.

You try and plug a number into the people who want to come slot.

 

[dohdough]

[quote name='Knoell']I was going to respond at lengh to each one of your ridiculous statements but why bother.

1. When have I said or even implied that all illegal immigrants are criminals? This seems to be a theme with you guys. You disagree? Your Racist.[/quote]

Hey, does this sound familiar or do you just like playing a dumb lying sack of crap?

[quote name='Knoell']Who is making fun? There is a law that illegal immigrants are illegal.[/quote]

That was from this ing thread.

2. What are you talking about? You think the ones that travel illegally now have the economic means, and just like being smuggled/sold in?

No, I said that the ones that could immigrate legally will do so if the restrictions were relaxed and that we won't see a huge influx of overseas immigrants than we already have. Immigrating isn't cheap or easy if you don't already have connections in the states.

3.

It's your crappy analogy. Don't blame me cause you don't know how to make it work.

4. What I mean by saying immigration isn't limited is not that every person in the world would come here. But that there is not a set number of people right now waiting to get in. The formula goes more like this: people waiting on a list + people motivated to go illegally + people who want to come but are not motivated yet or demotivated from going - people who don't want to go = Potential immigration.

You try and plug a number into the people who want to come slot.

LOLZ...born on earth=potential immigration according to that logic.

 

[depascal22]

No. Knoell. You man up and provide the numbers for once. I think everyone is tired of your hypothetical bullshit that can't ever be backed up with anything but wishes and fairy dust.

 

[Sporadic]

[quote name='depascal22']No. Knoell. You man up and provide the numbers for once. I think everyone is tired of your hypothetical bullshit that can't ever be backed up with anything but wishes and fairy dust.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm sorry, it's just common sense. I don't have to explain the logic or provide any proof that I'm not talking out of my ass.