Is it time to put Keynesianism out of it's misery yet?

I'd like to take this opportunity to say I've been reading this book: http://www.amazon.com/Lords-Finance...6800/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288873188&sr=8-1

And having a hard time with it, because I can't stop the laughing fits. Not because it's funny (it's very dry, in fact), but because the same person who started this thread advocates a return to the gold standard. Not only are they completely wrong about how to solve the economic crisis we're living with currently, they're wrong about how to solve the economic crisis we already solved 80 years ago!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
Tivo, I think you're confused.

We didn't get into WWII until December 1941. FDR started putting people to work almost a decade before that. He did serve most of four terms remember?
 
I didn;t start the fire, nor do I want to return to the gold standard. I don;t know how you all are able to write such falsehoods given the text is all right here.

and also, the recovery was slow and made slower by gov. policies:
Public opinion polls in March and May 1939 asked whether the attitude of the Roosevelt administration toward business was delaying recovery, and 54 and 53 percent, respectively, said yes while 26 and 31 percent said no. Fifty-six percent believed that in ten years there would be more government control of business while only 22 percent thought there would be less. Sixty-five percent of executives surveyed thought that the Roosevelt administration policies had so affected business confidence that the recovery had been seriously held back.

Look at the Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) and the National Recovery Administration (NRA) (the main centerpieces of the New Deal in 1933). In the former, 10 million acres of growing cotton was plowed up, bountiful crops were left to rot, and six million baby pigs were killed and discarded. Those are some great policies! P.S. unemployment is just one part of the economy.
 
They don't lie. Democrats are completely vindicated by public opinion, at least when it comes to the Bush tax cuts:

gallupextendcuts-thumb-454x178-25086.png


59% of americans want to end the bush tax cuts for the upper income bracket.
 
[quote name='tivo']P.S. unemployment is just one part of the economy.[/QUOTE]

A home three houses down from me recently drastically declined in value.

It having burned down was just one part of it.
 
Ireland just announced ANOTHER massive cut to government spending. After years of slashing taxes to increase business during the good years, this is the 2nd major austerity move for them since the recession. They have literally done every single thing a supply sider would want. I can't even imagine a more anti-Keynesian policy over the last 10 years.

So how they doing you ask? The easiest way to measure, their bond yields, are virtually out of control. And that's not Keynsians wagging their finger and saying they're screwing up. That's the market doing it.

chart.png


Whoopsie.

http://www.businessinsider.com/iris...tock+(ClusterStock)&utm_content=Google+Reader

Fellas. Gentlemen. Hate on Keynesian theory. Perfectly reasonable. But if you can't answer why the market is doing this, you got holes in your playbook.

Let's ask the market itself. What's the problem market? 17 hours ago:
DUBLIN — Ireland will cut six billion euros from its budget in 2011 under an austerity drive to save the debt-ridden eurozone nation 15 billion euros over four years, the government said on Thursday.

The EU hailed the cuts, which Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said were necessary to tackle a "once in a century financial and economic crisis."

"The government has agreed on an adjustment of six billion euros (8.52 billion dollars) for 2011," Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan said in a statement.

He said the initial savings would slash the public deficit to between 9.25 and 9.5 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) next year, from the 32 percent currently
What's not to love there, free marketeers? That's friggin supply side heaven. And yet...

2 hours ago:
Irish bond yields have failed to stabilise following the publication of the Government’s four-year budgetary and economic plan.

The amount investors demand to hold Irish 10-year debt passed 7.7 per cent this morning and the spread between Irish bonds and the German bund stands at 527 points.

Barry Nangle, head of bonds at Davy Stockbrokers, last night described the state of affairs in the market for Irish bonds as “a buyer’s strike”.

“It seems the ECB is the only buyer in the market,” he said.

Ireland’s authorities “have been taking important fiscal measures”, she said at a press conference. “We think what’s important is the implementation of that adjustment, which will support the underlying fiscal position,” she added.

Brian Devine, an economist at NCB Stockbrokers, said yesterday’s announcement may do little to lower Ireland’s borrowing costs. “There is no doubt that Ireland is serious about tackling its fiscal deficit . . . the market doesn’t seem to care though – events have surpassed the unveiling of a credible, conservative multi-year budget.”
Anyone care to explain that to a cranky old Keynesian like myself?
 
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Because I'm just gonna keep floggin this bitch. From the National Review Online, March 2007:
Ireland has boomed in recent years, and it now boasts the fourth highest gross domestic product per capita in the world. In the mid-1980s, Ireland was a backwater with an average income level 30 percent below that of the European Union. Today, Irish incomes are 40 percent above the EU average.

Was this dramatic change the luck of the Irish? Not at all. It resulted from a series of hard-headed decisions that shifted Ireland from big government stagnation to free market growth. After years of high inflation, double-digit unemployment rates, and soaring government debt that topped 100 percent of GDP, Irish policymakers began to cut spending in the late 1980s in a desperate bid to recover financial stability.

Irish government spending fell from more than 50 percent of GDP in the 1980s to 34 percent by 2005. For Europe that is a triumph of restraint, given that the average size of government across 25 EU countries today is 47 percent of GDP. And Ireland has steadily reduced its tax rates. The top individual income tax rate was cut from 65 percent in 1985 to 42 percent today. The capital gains tax rate was cut from 40 to 20 percent in 1999.

However, the key to Ireland’s success has been its excellent tax climate for business. In 1980, Ireland established a corporate tax rate for manufacturing of just 10 percent. That low rate was subsequently extended to high-technology, financial services, and other industries. More recently, Ireland established a flat 12.5 percent tax rate on all corporations — one of the lowest rates in the world, and just one-third of the U.S. rate.
Can Keynesian haters or supply siders or shit, anyone that believes in voodoo economics (lower tax rates = great economic victory!) explain how we got from there to here?
 
People who go on and ona bout high taxes seem to have little to no perspective. It's easy to complain about high taxes, but high as compared to what? Our taxes are lower than plenty of European countries, and yet even with higher taxes they always seem to rank among the most happy and satisfied countries in the world. I wouldn't think happiness were possible with high taxes, but then they seem to manage. Now granted many of them don't have the out of control defense spending we have either, so of course more of that money goes to programs within the country, so that probably has something to do with it.
 
LOLZ...top tax rate is 42%. Buncha red commie socialists up in that place. Which reminds me, wasn't there a fairly active terrorist group working out of there some years ago? I think they were called the Irish Republican Army or something. Does that mean all republicans are terrorists? ;)
 
[quote name='Clak']People who go on and ona bout high taxes seem to have little to no perspective. It's easy to complain about high taxes, but high as compared to what? Our taxes are lower than plenty of European countries, and yet even with higher taxes they always seem to rank among the most happy and satisfied countries in the world. I wouldn't think happiness were possible with high taxes, but then they seem to manage. Now granted many of them don't have the out of control defense spending we have either, so of course more of that money goes to programs within the country, so that probably has something to do with it.[/QUOTE]

When your taxes pay for a decent health care system and free college/technical school education, you don't have much to be pissed about. It's expensive to live in Scandanavia but people are healthy and educated.

It's a Republican nightmare because everyone isn't out to make a Euro at the expense of everything else.
 
Oh I know, which is why they usually rank among the happiest in the world. We ahve our priorities all screwed up in this country. We're more worried about policing the world than we are about keeping our people healthy or educated.
 
[quote name='Clak']Oh I know, which is why they usually rank among the happiest in the world. We ahve our priorities all screwed up in this country. We're more worried about policing the world than we are about keeping our people healthy or educated.[/QUOTE]

Healthy educated people actually give a damn about what's going on in government instead of the tabloids. Makes it harder for both parties to screw around with escorts.
 
[quote name='dohdough']LOLZ...top tax rate is 42%. Buncha red commie socialists up in that place. Which reminds me, wasn't there a fairly active terrorist group working out of there some years ago? I think they were called the Irish Republican Army or something. Does that mean all republicans are terrorists? ;)[/QUOTE]

they don't keep their money there. They send it out of the country to Bermuda or somewhere. A couple weeks ago there were a bunch of articles about how Google and other companies use Ireland (pull a "Double Irish") to get their corporate tax rates down to 2.4%. That's insane. 2.4%.

In any case, speedracer's article shows they're A LOT better off now then they were [National Review Online, March 2007 excerpt].
 
Aaaaaaaaand the blowout is looking apocalyptic.

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Dropping .5 in two weeks is absolutely lose your shit territory. They just lost almost .7 in less than 24 hours. Perfect supply side story Ireland is honest to god looking into the abyss right now. BI had exactly three words to say about it:
This screams endgame.

[quote name='tivo']
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Can you explain what we're looking at in those charts, speed?[/QUOTE]
Yes sir. That's the 10 year rate on an Irish government bond.

Dirty intro in case anyone gives a shit (I know not everyone needs it, but someone might find it interesting): Bonds are debt sold by governments to finance themselves. When you hear people talking about paying interest on America's debt, they're talking about the rate paid on the bonds we've issued. Typical bonds are 1 year, 10 year, and 30 years (there are others, but we're doing basics). 1 year bonds can be volatile because people will overreact to news, so it's not a great measure of the state of the government issuing the bond. 30 year bonds cover a helluva long time, so it's not a great tool to get a solid measure of how the market really thinks the government will do financially (imagine trying to foresee 2010 America in 1980). The 10 year is considered to be the best measure of how the market thinks a bond issuer will do.

And this is all totally market based so governments can talk all they want, but the cost is set by the market. You can get an accurate picture of what the world really believes by a entity's bond prices. And it's a big time check on the ability of a government to handle its business because if borrowing becomes too expensive, you can't do it anymore.

The reason Ireland's bonds are crashing is because it is offering and there are literally no buyers for it. There isn't an ounce of demand which is even more shocking because interest rates are so awful around the world that nobody can make money by loaning. Here's a country begging a world stuffed to the gills with money and no one will give it to them.

Ireland has done nothing but what the free market small government financial types of the world told it to. It slashed taxes. It slashed regulation. It's passed two gigantic budget cuts. By all accounts, everyone in the world should be begging Ireland to take their money. But they're not. The Irish are being hung by the very people that told them how not to get hung.

Terrible old SOCIALIST RAWR America's current position, if anyone's curious:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=USGG10YR:IND
 
Not at all dude. I'm a nut for this stuff. And I reserve the right to be 100% wrong.

The "value" is the current yield on the bond, or the interest rate paid on the bond. "Change" is the % change during the day, "open" is where it started today, "low" is the lowest offer, and "high" is the highest. So in the chart from post #112, we're seeing that Ireland has gone from offering bonds at 7.96% interest rate at the start of the day, to having to offer 8.62%. So from this morning at open to today's close, Ireland now has to pay 8.640% more to borrow (a dollar today costs 1.0862 cents, yesterday it cost 1.0796). That's a huge deal when you're borrowing billions or tens of billions. This is 100% market determined. If you or I thought that Ireland was certain to pay back its debt, we would buy and make 8.5% (friggin awesome return!). Hilariously, the color of the change is green because if you're an investor, the rate is getting better for you. If you were looking at that from the POV of Ireland, it would be so red your monitor would asplode. If you look at the US one, it's red because the rate went "down" today, indicating bad for investors and GRRRRRRRRRREAT! for America.

So inflation is the murderer of capital that sits idle. Real 'mmmurkins don't really notice inflation because we don't make that much money. But banks, countries with savings, large institutional investors, etc. that have tens of billions of dollars don't want to have that amount reduced by 2% a year by inflation. So when everyone trusts no one, the market voraciously chases safe bets that can at least return the rate of inflation so they're not "losing" money. Right now the US 10 year is 2.65%, which is astronomically, retardedly low by historical standards.

But you're Joe 10 Billion Fund Investor. You're not paid to tread water, you're paid to return above average so 2-3% (which is average inflation per year) isn't gonna cut it. Right now there's a world full of Joe 10B-F-I guys trying to find that safe 5-10% return. Hell, even 4% is honest enough. And so while everyone slits everyone's throat to find that 1% here or there, Ireland goes up almost a 1% in a single week and still no one will touch it. It went up .7 IN A SINGLE DAY and no one wants it. From the market's point of view, that's past insanity. Like BI said, it's endgame.

To get into tl;dr range (too late I'm sure):

Quick note: Time value of money. So if I loan at 2% per year and inflation is 2% per year, I made no money. Therefore, if I borrow with the same conditions, I paid 0% interest.

All projects, private or public, have to take interest into account. When it's high, it makes less sense to borrow because you're literally paying for the money. When it's low, you should grab it because it lowers the cost of doing work. Literally. I know that's stupidly obvious, but our tea party friends don't seem to grasp that one.

So a Keynesian sees that America's bonds are at inflation and they're jumping for joy. OMG free money! The impossible (by historical standards) dream! We should borrow every dollar we can and do all the shit we're supposed to do (ie stimulus). Not only will it increase employment, but it will never be cheaper to do the shit we're supposed to. Build infrastructure, research, etc. It'll pay off when we don't have to pay a ton of money later in interest fees. Pay now so we don't have to pay more later. They say take the debt on (that you'll take at some point anyway) at the lower rate and the market will reward you for it.

So a supply sider/voodoo/trickle down economist doesn't give a shit about fact that it will actually cost less. They see every expenditure as a bad one. There is no such thing as a good government investment. Even if you can remove the cost of interest (10% or even 5% on $700 billion is a shit ton of money), they don't care. It's all bad. They say that if you take on debt, you will eventually choke on it. Cut taxes, cut government, pay down debt and the market will reward you for it.

So who's right? The market tells us with the 10 year bond rate.

Ireland: 8.62%
US: 2.65%
 
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Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking that a higher % rate would be good for those who buy the bonds, but neglected to realize that the % increasing so high (since it's market driven) is the nation of Ireland having to respond to simply not getting enough people to buy bonds right now - the net result being that they're going to end up in a fuckload of trouble when they have to pay back those bonds.

That's about the thick of it, yes?

EDIT: Also that this inherently increases the risk of buying Irish bonds - reason being that a nice return rate correlates nicely with a higher default rate, meaning the prospective bond buyer stands to either get a good yield on their bonds, or go completely fucking bust. Yes?
 
We just touched on finance stuff like this back in a business class I had once. But I think that's pretty much the rub of it. To attract buyers they up the interest rate, but that's going to fuck them in the ass when they have to pay on it. Also scares investors because it shows that the Irish government is desperate for people to buy, which doesn't inspire confidence in investors.
 
I understand what your saying but not quite sure about the reasons or cause. I've read this...

The cost of funding Irish debt has risen steadily since September, when the government admitted its bailout of five banks would cost at least euro45 billion, equivalent to euro10,000 for every man, woman and child in Ireland. That gargantuan bill, in turn, has made the projected 2010 deficit rise to 32 percent of GDP, the highest in post-war Europe.

To combat this, Ireland plans to impose euro4.5 billion in cuts and euro1.5 billion in new taxes in its 2011 budget. It will be the first stage in a four-year plan designed to slash the deficit by euro15 billion.

And I hear investors are afraid to purchase bonds because they think Ireland will either default on payment or even declare bankruptcy.

What other past events happened to get Ireland in this situation?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Thanks for the explanation. I was thinking that a higher % rate would be good for those who buy the bonds, but neglected to realize that the % increasing so high (since it's market driven) is the nation of Ireland having to respond to simply not getting enough people to buy bonds right now - the net result being that they're going to end up in a fuckload of trouble when they have to pay back those bonds.

That's about the thick of it, yes?[/quote]
Yup.
EDIT: Also that this inherently increases the risk of buying Irish bonds - reason being that a nice return rate correlates nicely with a higher default rate, meaning the prospective bond buyer stands to either get a good yield on their bonds, or go completely fucking bust. Yes?
Yes and no. There will be a point at which the cost of borrowing will be so high that they simply will not be able to repay. Then we end up (in Ireland's case) in front of the IMF and EU central banks. If the IMF and EU refuse to loan, then they would default and the process would look roughly similar to a bankruptcy. All debt holders line up and renegotiate for a % of the value of the bonds they hold. Since sovereign debt is considered among the safest investments you can make, buyers are often retirement funds, pension funds, "safe" investors that can't afford to lose capital. So when Argentina defaulted, it was countries that had these safe investors in the market that get screwed. For example, Italy was heavily invested and had a bunch of their pensioners eat shit on Argentina, so now it's Italy's problem too (in the case of Argentina, Japan, Germany, and Spain all took a big hit) and then it gets all crazy political.

This is why sovereign (ie actual countries) debt is considered so much safer than private debt. The chances that an external entity won't step in is much lower. Countries will lobby to prevent it, the IMF will step in, and the central bank can offer emergency loans. That's a helluva lot of pressure in the real world. The market knows all this and prices accordingly. No matter how jacked up a country is, it's still less risk than a private bond from even a quality company.

So you've got all this crazy downward risk pressure on sovereign bonds. We never actually "see" the true risk priced in, at least not normally. In America, as the conservatives like to say, we own the printing press (ie we have a central bank (ie the Fed)), which means we alone control our money supply. America can (and does) say "oh, we owe you a dollar. Hold on a sec. *fires up the press* Here ya go!" But Ireland doesn't have that ability because it's on the Euro. Their interests compete with all other EU central bank "clients", included Germany, France, countries that are doing fine (in a relative sense).

This is where it gets ugly for Ireland. Everyone wants to devalue their currency right now. It makes exports cheaper and since nobody is growing at home, everyone wants to drink everyone else's milkshake. China won't allow their currency to go up and has been drinking everyone's milkshake for years now. The EU and America want in on the action. The fear is that currency wars will break out, where everyone devalues the shit out their currency to get lower than the next guy (a race to the bottom). In reality, devaluation is protectionism by another name and it'll grind international trade to a halt. So it becomes a game theorist's wet dream: take as many jenga pieces as you can without crashing the whole thing.

Ireland's bad shape lowers the value of the Euro. Germany LOVES this fact because a monstrous amount of their economy is export based and people can afford their crap. There's a competing interest to Ireland's solvency. So Germany wants to stoke the fear of Irish default without them actually defaulting. And we can watch how it unfolds in real time. Last night around 2am Atlantic time, a rumor broke that Ireland was in talks with the EU on a bailout. Irish bonds immediately get stronger:

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Remember, red = bad for investors, great for the bond issuer.

Germany goes oh shit! Can't have that! German Chancellor Merkel responds to the news:
She acknowledged her stance had scared financial markets, which have punished Irish, Greek and Portuguese debt for two weeks. It was unfair for European taxpayers to finance rescues of debt-laden countries on their own, she said at the Group of 20 summit in Seoul.

“Let me put it quite simply: in this regard there may be a contradiction between the interests of the financial world and the interests of the political world,” Ms Merkel said. “We cannot keep constantly explaining to our voters and our citizens why the taxpayer should bear the cost of certain risks and not those people who have earned a lot of money from taking those risks.”

You can see the change to the Euro when they thought Ireland was in bailout talks last night. Now Merkel hammers em. What does the Euro do on her words? Exactly what she wants:

chart.png


And the morning consensus seems to be that Merkel is full of shit and they're going to bail them out. IF you believe they'll be bailed out and IF you believe they really do have their shit together, Ireland would be a nice buy. Those are mighty big if's though. It's like Germany is keeping Ireland on life support to keep getting Ireland's Social Security checks. It's so awesome to be German right now. Their politicians can blame everyone else in the EU for financial problems, and they get all the benefits of their problems at the same time. They can tell the rest of the world that their currency value is out of their hands, but they can carefully orchestrate the conditions that affect its value. And when Ireland and Greece (and Portugal and Spain) finally do get their shit together, they're going to be paying interest on loans from the EU that go back to guess who? Germany.

Germany "helps" Ireland's interest rates on their bonds go sky high. Ireland goes from 5% to 8.9%. Germany swoops in as the white knight and loans to them at 8% or 7.5% or so. Ireland thanks god that they don't have to pay market rates. Germany makes a tidy 2.5-3% above the rate the market had put Ireland on, which was based on Germany's actions.

This is the perfect example of a Keynesian destroying a Supply Sider. To paraphrase Aesop, the Keynesian ants store for the winter while the supply sider grasshopper enjoys the summer. Winter comes and the Keynesian loans to the supply sider at 8%. And the supply sider owes the Keynesian for the next decade or three.
 
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[quote name='mykevermin']This is the best vs thread in a long time, mostly thanks to the effort of speed.[/QUOTE]
Yeah...who would've thought that economics wasn't as simple as deficits being bad. :D
 
Now imma just keep on blabbing. I blame you guys for encouraging me.
[quote name='tivo']I understand what your saying but not quite sure about the reasons or cause. I've read this...
The cost of funding Irish debt has risen steadily since September, when the government admitted its bailout of five banks would cost at least euro45 billion, equivalent to euro10,000 for every man, woman and child in Ireland. That gargantuan bill, in turn, has made the projected 2010 deficit rise to 32 percent of GDP, the highest in post-war Europe.

To combat this, Ireland plans to impose euro4.5 billion in cuts and euro1.5 billion in new taxes in its 2011 budget. It will be the first stage in a four-year plan designed to slash the deficit by euro15 billion.
[/quote]
Right. Bank bailouts. So this is the supply siders version of Keynesian policy. Keynesians (good libruls that they are) say trickle up the money by starting big projects, thereby increasing employment and lowering costs in the future. Supply siders didn't really have a policy for this until now because supply siders never really had to deal with an serious recession bordering on honest to god depression. Remember, Keynesian policy was born (largely) of the Great Depression and so our whole purpose is to smooth the cyclical nature of the beast. Tame the high so we can tame the low. But that's heresy to a supply sider.

America and Ireland are both strong supply siders, so I'll use America as an example because I know it better. But Ireland did the same thing essentially.

Note: So inflation slowly bleeds capital you're sitting on and not putting to work by making it have less value. The cost of stuff has risen. Deflation is the opposite. It kills capital that has already been spent because today I can buy more with it than I did yesterday. So everything that isn't actual cash is now worth less, like property, investments, etc. So while the cash in your bank account is happy, your home value is not. From a government point of view, it now owes more on its bonds since it already spent the money it got for them. Wall St. HATES HATES HATES deflation because their investments are worth less and nobody carries cash because then it's not earning them money.

So Bernanke/Paulson see our financial structure melting down. Deflation is looking like an issue. Not that it'll even happen, but just the idea that it could is enough to scare the shit out of them. And interest rates are basically zero already, so the Fed can't lower the rate to stimulate anymore. So they (and other supply side countries) try to kill two birds with one stone. They bust out the Milton Friedman Supply Sider's bible and Uncle Milton tells em to kill deflation by printing money (or in Ireland's case, taking out the debt itself) and giving it to banks. Uncle Milton calls it a "helicopter drop" (earning Mr. Bernanke the nickname Helicopter Ben). Sure it's debt, but doesn't it look like Keynesian economics with a nod to supply side thinking? Save the banks, save themselves from deflation, and increase money in America (or Ireland). Win-win-win.

Uh, no. We end up with a classic Keynesian situation, the liquidity trap. The banks are sitting on piles of money now. They look for places to invest it. Who's doing better than America/Ireland? Everyone. So now we/Ireland recapitalize the banks who, instead of loaning here and helping us, turn around and invest overseas. King Neo-Classical Keynesian Joe Stiglitz points out the obvious:
In October 2010, Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz explained how the U.S. Federal Reserve was implementing another monetary policy —creating currency— to combat the liquidity trap. Stiglitz noted that the Federal Reserve intended, by creating $600 billion and inserting this directly into banks, to spur banks to finance more domestic loans and refinance mortgages. However, Stiglitz pointed out that banks were instead spending the money in more profitable areas by investing internationally in emerging markets.
The supply sider governments saved the rich, who then promptly turned around and fucked them.

What other past events happened to get Ireland in this situation?
Austerity. The other big difference between Keynesians and Supply Siders. Keynesians create jobs blah blah blah. Supply siders cut government blah blah. Cutting government cuts jobs cuts demand cuts jobs.

Today:
Europe’s economic growth weakened in the third quarter from the fastest pace in four years as governments’ austerity measures to cut record budget deficits dented the recovery.
Link to above quote (don't miss the oh-too-telling page link from Bloomberg):

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...-peripheral-countries-lag-behind-germany.html

But maybe that's a deviation from the norm. Greece cut the shit out of its government. How's it doing? A report today:
Greece’s economy contracted 1.1 percent in the latest three months
Ouch.
 
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How can you argue that the deficit we have in the United States is not only a good thing, but necessary for the economy to survive? It is not like it is small, and it is not like we will pay it back in the expansion.

The deficit we have in the United States is not by any means "under control". The deficit as a percentage of GDP has increased steadily over the last 7 decades. We aren't simply "spending to get out of the recession" we are spending more and more consistantly ALL THE TIME.
 
They bust out the Milton Friedman Supply Sider's bible and Uncle Milton tells em to kill deflation by printing money (or in Ireland's case, taking out the debt itself) and giving it to banks. Uncle Milton calls it a "helicopter drop" (earning Mr. Bernanke the nickname Helicopter Ben).

Isn't that the EXACT same idea Paul Krugman (A Keynesian you're probably reading right now) proposed to get Japan out of economic stagnation?.......

His own words via http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/nikkei.html: (Note: one can just read the bolded text to verify my claim)
The simple fact is that there is no limit on how much a central bank can increase the supply of money. Could the Bank of Japan, for example, double the amount of monetary base - that is, bank reserves plus cash in circulation - over the next year? Sure: just buy that amount of Japanese government debt. True, even such a large increase in the money supply might not drive down interest rates very much, since they are already so low. But an increase in Japan's money supply could ease the economic problem in ways other than lower interest rates. It is possible that putting more cash in circulation will stimulate spending directly - that the extra money will simply "burn holes in peoples' pockets". Or banks, awash in reserves, might become more willing to lend; or individuals, with all that cash on hand, will bypass the banks and find other ways of investing. And even if none of these things happens, when the Bank of Japan increases the monetary base it does so by buying off government debt - and therefore makes room for spending increases or tax cuts.

So never mind those long lists of reasons for Japan's slump. The answer to the country's immediate problems is simple: PRINT LOTS OF MONEY. But won't that be inflationary? Well, remember that the Bank of Japan is supposed to be impotent: if it prints more money, people will simply hoard it rather than save it. But printing money is only inflationary if people spend it, and if that spending exceeds the economy's capacity to produce. You cannot first argue that monetary policy is ineffective as a way to increase demand, then reject a proposal to print more money on the grounds that it will cause inflation.

So why doesn't the Bank of Japan just go out and print lots of money? The best theory I have heard is that the bureaucrats at the Bank of Japan and the Ministry of Finance are still mesmerized by the memory of the "bubble economy" - the wild speculation of the late 1980s, which pushed the prices of stocks and real estate to crazy levels (remember when the grounds of the Imperial Palace were supposedly worth more than the whole State of California?). They believe that loose monetary policy created that bubble - which may be true - and that the bursting of the bubble caused the slump of the 1990s - which may also be true. And so they are afraid to increase the money supply now for fear of repeating the experience.

There is an old joke that may be useful here: A driver runs over a pedestrian, who is left lying in the road behind his car. He looks back and says "I am so sorry - let me undo the damage" - and proceeds to back up his car, running over the pedestrian a second time. Japan's economic managers are acting like that driver. They do not realize that 1997 is not 1987, and that doing the opposite of what they did then only compounds the country's problems.

vs. Milton Friedman who, "maintained that there is a close and stable association between price inflation and the money supply, mainly that price inflation should be regulated with monetary deflation and price deflation with monetary inflation."

So it sounds like proponents of both economic schools came up with the same idea. What's going on?

Anyway, you mentioned that because Greece and Portugal devalued the euro Germany is now able to export more. However, their ability to import would be weakened. Importing raw materials at higher prices would hurt their economic growth (or at least detract/negate benefits of increased exports), no? And importing consumer goods would also cost more, hurting quality of life growth? So its not all roses fur die volk.
 
[quote name='speedracer']
The other big difference between Keynesians and Supply Siders. Keynesians create jobs blah blah blah. Supply siders cut government blah blah. Cutting government cuts jobs cuts demand cuts jobs.
[/QUOTE]

also can you fill this out
 
[quote name='tivo']Isn't that the EXACT same idea Paul Krugman (A Keynesian you're probably reading right now) proposed to get Japan out of economic stagnation?.......[/quote]
I've never read his books. I've seen him on TV a bunch of times but I just get this feeling I can only trust 50% of what he says and I'm never sure which 50% I'm in.
His own words via http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/nikkei.html: (Note: one can just read the bolded text to verify my claim)
I feel very strongly about not looking to Japan for answers because our situations are so different. Their saver status is legendary. Our debt balances are legendary. They are an overwhelmingly exporting nation based on technology and production. We are a knowledge based economy that dabbles in production. They are a very small island chain, we are... not. Their unemployment peaked at 5.5%. We were damn near (if not) 10% officially and probably significantly higher unofficially.
vs. Milton Friedman who, "maintained that there is a close and stable association between price inflation and the money supply, mainly that price inflation should be regulated with monetary deflation and price deflation with monetary inflation."

So it sounds like proponents of both economic schools came up with the same idea. What's going on?
You're right though. The two claims look similar if not exactly the same. My question would be to Krugman: what national interest is being served by handing money to the banks? Why should I, Joe Ditch Digger, support an action that causes my pay to fall (inflation) while not stimulating the American economy? What do international banks and the American economy have in common?
Anyway, you mentioned that because Greece and Portugal devalued the euro Germany is now able to export more. However, their ability to import would be weakened. Importing raw materials at higher prices would hurt their economic growth (or at least detract/negate benefits of increased exports), no?
Yes, but China's demand for raw material is so captivating the raw/unfinished goods market that it's them that decides the price for everyone. In a perfect market you'd be dead right but in this imperfect market, it's all about China. When it was leaked on Friday that China might have significantly higher inflation than previously thought, the price of oil fell sharply. I would argue that it's out of Germany's hands. They just happen to be at the right place at the right time.

5 day on crude per barrel, Friday's action is pronounced.
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
And importing consumer goods would also cost more, hurting quality of life growth? So its not all roses fur die volk.
Yes but since they're on the Euro, a whole helluva lot of what they import is not affected. And with the Chinese pegged to the dollar, they can afford them too. So they get Europe + China for cheap at the cost of the rest of Asia (notice Japan can't keep the Yen competitive. I wonder why). And they've been flat against the dollar. That's a helluva deal.

I'll respond to the other posts later. I'd like to think about this more too.
 
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Everything I've written is opinion. I don't want anyone to think that I'm representing any of this as fact. I'm just a guy who watches as a hobby and has a guess at what's goin on (like assholes and opinions, everyone's got one).
[quote name='tivo']also can you fill this out[quote name='speedracer']
Austerity. The other big difference between Keynesians and Supply Siders. Keynesians create jobs blah blah blah. Supply siders cut government blah blah. Cutting government cuts jobs cuts demand cuts jobs. [/QUOTE][/quote]
So this goes from theory to reality. When you cut government, you're cutting jobs, period. We can say "we want to end this program" and we do it, and then whoever was handling that for the government, all contractors involved, etc get the axe. In a perfect world they would instantly slot into another job, but we know that doesn't happen. What happens is they go on unemployment/involuntary part-time for roughly 27 weeks. That's a helluva long time and has wider implications. If the cut is big enough and localized enough, you get the downturn of an entire region (Detroit for example). But to make matters worse, now you've got people taking from the government via unemployment/food stamps/etc instead of paying in. So X government program was cut to save money, but the bottom line is much different than X savings from X cut. Since the government also underwrites the insurance for people (unemployment etc), those people become costs instead of contributors.
[quote name='Knoell']How can you argue that the deficit we have in the United States is not only a good thing, but necessary for the economy to survive? It is not like it is small, and it is not like we will pay it back in the expansion.[/quote]
I'm not saying "the deficit" is good or necessary. There is the principle (the money we actually borrow) taken out for government program X, the interest on the money Y, and the return on the investment Z. If Z > (X + Y), then an investment makes sense PERIOD. Debt accrued to that point (ie sunk costs) should not affect the investment decision unless the opportunity cost means we would be better off servicing the debt in order to lower interest payments. In the case of American debt the 10 year is at 2.65% and inflation is 2%, meaning our interest payments are almost non-existent. In that case (and this is a rare case, not a normal case by any means), it makes sense to increase debt in order to return on investment at the higher rate.

There are things that must be paid for, now or later. Bridges must be maintained and improved. Sewer systems must be maintained and improved. Water systems, ports, etc etc etc. There's no way around it. It only makes good business sense to do it when it costs the least and that time is now.

In most times (like when we're flat or in an expansionary period) interest rates wouldn't be where they are, my basis for speaking would not be the case, and you would be right.
The deficit we have in the United States is not by any means "under control". The deficit as a percentage of GDP has increased steadily over the last 7 decades. We aren't simply "spending to get out of the recession" we are spending more and more consistantly ALL THE TIME.
I agree, well mostly anyway. I wish we hadn't given $1.3 trillion to America's richest. I wish we hadn't spent $1+ trillion on the wars. I wish we had used it to pay down debt and we wouldn't be in this position as a % relative to GDP. But that doesn't change anything. Right now it makes sense to invest for reasons I said above.

Keynesians (or maybe it's just my own personal flavor of Keynesianism) believe that this is all fairly easily foreseeable. During down cycles, interest rates drop. Labor gets cheaper. The cost of doing business drops. That is when a government should spend. In addition to getting the best deal, it has the very lovely side benefit of increasing employment. But to get the best of all worlds, YOU HAVE TO fuckING SAVE MONEY DURING THE GOOD YEARS AND NOT GIVE IT AWAY.
 
good posts btw,

[quote name='speedracer']
So this goes from theory to reality. When you cut government, you're cutting jobs, period. We can say "we want to end this program" and we do it, and then whoever was handling that for the government, all contractors involved, etc get the axe. In a perfect world they would instantly slot into another job, but we know that doesn't happen. What happens is they go on unemployment/involuntary part-time for roughly 27 weeks. That's a helluva long time and has wider implications. If the cut is big enough and localized enough, you get the downturn of an entire region (Detroit for example). But to make matters worse, now you've got people taking from the government via unemployment/food stamps/etc instead of paying in. So X government program was cut to save money, but the bottom line is much different than X savings from X cut. Since the government also underwrites the insurance for people (unemployment etc), those people become costs instead of contributors. [/quote]

I agree that in there would be some time when the gov. cut jobs would cost money but after that 27 weeks, wouldn't it incur savings in the long run. I mean, being a government employee has tons of benefits, especially a really fat retirement pay. (I forget the number but its some large percentage of one's pre-retirement paycheck). Also, the government does not create wealth of which it pays its employees. It only transfers wealth from the private sector which would have otherwise been spent for long term employment growth. Government doesn't have programs that generate long term employment growth. They just ask congress for more money and then hire people after.

There are things that must be paid for, now or later. Bridges must be maintained and improved. Sewer systems must be maintained and improved. Water systems, ports, etc etc etc. There's no way around it. It only makes good business sense to do it when it costs the least and that time is now.

This is a Keynesian idea; that there is no shortage of projects in which work can be done. However, there are only a few readily available projects. It usually takes 5-7 years for the gov. to build anything, at which point finances could change. But you're right, repairs are more readily available and should be carried out if they are
 
[quote name='tivo']I agree that in there would be some time when the gov. cut jobs would cost money but after that 27 weeks, wouldn't it incur savings in the long run.[/quote]
Yes and no. From a private business point of view, yes. But the government gets its "income" from the income of everyone. So if Joe Federal is laid off, suckles at the teat for 27 weeks, then goes into this shitty job market where he takes a lower skill job (resulting in lower output) at lower pay (lowering the tax base) and takes a job someone else would have gotten (from Joe Newly Minted College Grad) who then has to take a lower skill job at lower pay that someone else would have gotten etc. etc. etc., you end up with a macro cascading effect that hurts the bottom line. I'm not saying it doesn't result in savings, but I think it's got much more of a pebble in the water ripple effect than we normally give it credit for.
I mean, being a government employee has tons of benefits, especially a really fat retirement pay. (I forget the number but its some large percentage of one's pre-retirement paycheck).
I'm not trying to go full defense of the government leeching bastard here, but the hoops people have to jump through to become feds can be ridiculous and the pay often reflects that. I got to talking to some DEA guys at a conference who said that there was a job opening that paid around a 60% premium on what I make at the city, but you can NEVER have used any illegal narcotic OR a legal narcotic for unapproved use. Not once. You just can't find those people. The security requirements for working on government projects means you have to compensate your employees to keep them secure and in pocket.

Having said that, a total compensation package > $100k for any federal employee is too damn much IMO. You wanna be rich, go kill what you eat in the private sector.
Also, the government does not create wealth of which it pays its employees. It only transfers wealth from the private sector which would have otherwise been spent for long term employment growth.
I agree that it is a transfer of wealth and I agree the government does not create the wealth. But I disagree that it would otherwise be used on long term growth and I think that there's a general assumption built in to that statement that it would help America that isn't true either.
Government doesn't have programs that generate long term employment growth. They just ask congress for more money and then hire people after.
The Hoover Dam has lowered the cost of doing business for decades on all businesses in 5 states. It put 30,000 people to work for 5 years. That's a long term employment growth project that'll rank among the best investments ever made by a government anywhere.
This is a Keynesian idea; that there is no shortage of projects in which work can be done. However, there are only a few readily available projects. It usually takes 5-7 years for the gov. to build anything, at which point finances could change.
This is true. When thinking about this, I kind of wander into this Keynesian dream world where people stand at the ready with great ideas just needing the funding to implement. And the funding is all gotten now, so its costs are upfront (and never over budget, naturally). But that shit ain't real. When my internal dialogue tries to account for that, I put together some panel of people who's job it is to separate the wheat from the chaff and can put together this great list of projects. And then I think about how what we really need is full buy-in of speedracer-style Keynesianism to make that happen. And then I realize I'm full of shit.
But you're right, repairs are more readily available and should be carried out if they are
 
[quote name='speedracer']
Having said that, a total compensation package > $100k for any federal employee is too damn much IMO. You wanna be rich, go kill what you eat in the private sector. [/QUOTE]

Let me say that my total package is *well* above 100K as a federal worker. Hell, my salary *alone* is comfortably above that. Now it didnt start there, of course, I've been at this job 10+ years, but they *had* to offer that as a career parth or they'd have never been able to hire me in the first place. Median salary for a person with my degree 10+ years into a career is ~100K then you have to take into account the high cost of living in the DC area.

You seem to be laboring under the assumption that all federal jobs are something anyone could do. But there are some highly technical positions that you have to pay to fill. You cannot expect to cap out Computer Scientists, Engineers, Accountants, Attorneys, etc. at 100K and actually expect to fill those positions. We're willing to sacrifice some of the salary for job security / benefits. But you cant have an "insulting" offer either. Maybe right now while the job situation is bad you can lowball a bit. But as soon as the economy turns back up, we'd bolt. Then you'd end up losing all the experienced ones who actually help the offices run more efficiently.

So no, there *is* a place for a federal worker to make $100K in compensation.

Otherwise, I've enjoyed reading your economic posts.
 
I assumed that the Germans wanted the Irish/Greek/Portugese debt in order to get bigger returns. I was wrong. They want much, much worse.
Markets have known for a while now that Ireland's bank bail-outs are going to be bigger and costlier than expected, and that knowledge brought with it a blow to market confidence in Ireland's ability to pay. But German leaders made a bad situation much worse, by pushing Europe toward talks on a debt restructuring mechanism without ever making it clear what it might want from creditors—or the Irish government. As Mr Johnson and Mr Boone note, the Germans made it less attractive to be an Irish creditor, which raised Irish borrowing costs, which made default a more attractive option for the Irish.

In fact, the Irish really don't seem interested in default. As has been well documented, Ireland has enough cash on hand to finance itself into next year, and some guess that once Ireland gets through elections and lays out a new budget, as it will by year's end, markets will calm down. But the ECB is anxious to get Ireland into a programme sooner, since there's some evidence that Irish banks are leaking deposits, which could force the ECB into a larger financing role. And so it seems that the parties are currently engaged in negotiations, and there may be room for a bargain. Ireland may accept some aid, to help hold off a real bank run and to limit pressure on Portugal, and in return the Germans may cease trying to get Ireland to boost its corporate tax rate. A deal might well include Portugal, since that shoe seems likely to drop sooner rather than later. And the prospect of a deal seems to have soothed markets.

And then what? What happens after that? Well, it's not clear that Ireland can't pay its debts, painful as they may be to bear. Portugal and Spain have more work to do. But the stability of the euro zone is primarily a political question. Germany seems to be willing to keep struggling peripheral countries afloat so long as they suffer and become more German in the process, and so far those struggling peripheral countries have proven surprisingly willing to suffer and become more German. Who's to say this can't continue?
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/11/european_debt_crises_0

The Germans think the Irish corporate tax rate is too low and is hurting their (the Germans) ability to be competitive. They want the Irish to raise their corporate tax rate.
[quote name='hostyl1']Let me say that my total package is *well* above 100K as a federal worker. Hell, my salary *alone* is comfortably above that. Now it didnt start there, of course, I've been at this job 10+ years, but they *had* to offer that as a career parth or they'd have never been able to hire me in the first place. Median salary for a person with my degree 10+ years into a career is ~100K then you have to take into account the high cost of living in the DC area.[/quote]
Forgive me for generalizing "the government worker" (of which I am one), but it greases the wheels.

There's intangibles that come with working for the government that should be a part of the wage decision. We as government employees (generally) enjoy a standard of living and work-life balance that is the envy of private workers. To be a professional in the government is by orders of magnitude different than out there. We by and large go home at 5pm. We don't have to "kill" in order to eat. We know our employer won't screw around with us about pay and benefits. That sounds trivial but in a room full of college buddies, the incredulous stares I got when I said I was taking 2 months of (federally protected!) FMLA followed by their comments on how fast they would be fired/benched/etc. for doing it and how it would be a path-to-partner-ending move to even ask reminded me of the reality out there. That's got value and "we" can tut-tut it, but I consider that peace of mind part of my compensation package.

But could we just jump over to BigLaw/Big 4 accounting/BigWhoever? Maybe, but maybe not, if we're being honest with ourselves (generally speaking here). Would we ever want to? OH HELL NO. So what is that worth to us?

And there's always COLA.
You seem to be laboring under the assumption that all federal jobs are something anyone could do. But there are some highly technical positions that you have to pay to fill. You cannot expect to cap out Computer Scientists, Engineers, Accountants, Attorneys, etc. at 100K and actually expect to fill those positions. We're willing to sacrifice some of the salary for job security / benefits. But you cant have an "insulting" offer either. Maybe right now while the job situation is bad you can lowball a bit. But as soon as the economy turns back up, we'd bolt. Then you'd end up losing all the experienced ones who actually help the offices run more efficiently.

So no, there *is* a place for a federal worker to make $100K in compensation.
It's cold and lonely out there. Being a federal attorney (of which I personally am friends with federal defenders and clerks) is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY different than being at BigLaw. At 5:30pm, my fed law buddies are knockin back their 2nd drink at the bar. The BigLaws are hoping they'll be there by 9pm. And federal lawyers aren't worried about hitting 2750 hours to (hopefully!) stay on partner track. They're worried about their golf swing.

Same with the accountants. The Big 4 firm accountants (when they're actually in town) that I know are all booking 65-75 hours a week regularly.

And the CompSci kids I know are either at startups and praying to god their ramen-and-stock-options paychecks pay off or they're corporate drones at Big Oil/consulting firms (working as hard as the BigLaw guys) trying to slot into that CIO job that they'll never get.

The lawyers make more, but the rest all make about what feds do (+-15%). When it all adds up, IMO, it's a laugher. I take fed/govt every single time.

100k single earner is a shit ton of money. Rich people money. I know living in DC or NY or LA it doesn't feel like it, but in flyover America that's more gold than most dual earner households. Choosing to live there and choosing that lifestyle and choosing that reward is just that. A choice. And while the government pay lags the private, IMO, it doesn't lag enough. If I can be utterly ridiculous for a second, I just think that it's patriotic to work for government and be willing to sacrifice the pay.

Or maybe that's just what I tell myself because I get paid shit. My BigLaw spouse makes more in 3 months than I do all year. Course, I'm home at 4.
Otherwise, I've enjoyed reading your economic posts.
Thanks. I've liked writing em. It's helpful to me to write it down to understand it, even if I'm wrong.
 
Rich people money? That's a fucking joke. Sure, that salary sounds get in "flyover country", but part of the reason it is what it is is *because* of the cost of living. The agency is based in the DC area and they understand that they must pay accordingly. It's not like I can just move to another place *and* keep that same salary (well, my particualr agency *is* working on that but the bugs havent been worked out yet).

It's one of things that pisses me off about the whole tax debate, people argue about the 250K household upper limit as an abstraction and count every person there as "rich". Bullshit! I'm comfortable, I dont lie, but I'm not lighting cigars with Franklins while crapping on a Persian rug. There is a far distinction between say me and Oprah, but the taxes dont think so, and neither do the politicians who have aribtrarily deemed my household as "rich" and then cursed me for being so. It's no wonder that my district (VA 11th) almost booted out a decent (but not great) Congressman Connolly in view of a "Taxed Enough Already" spewing (half-failed) businessman Fimian.

You see us as "rich" and while 250K in absolute terms sounds exhoribitant, it's just slightly above average around here. You look in my neighboorhood, you won't see garages filled with Lamborghini's and yachts. You'll see 10 year old Toyota and Fords with the occasional new SUV/MiniVan/Crossover of the young expanding families. Our quality of life is good, "upper" middle class even. But if we were to lose a job or have a serious health issue all that can pass away in a blink of an eye. When I think of "rich", I dont think of someone that close to the brink.

Now, the majority of us understand that there are bills to pay and those that can best pay them should. We've benefited from the country dis-proportionately than others so we should finance dis-proportionately than other. That our disctrict rejected Fimian (again) shows that. But can we stop with the labels that we are 'greedy rich'? We may have a little more 'stuff' (though not so different from most of suburbia), but we're still working for every little thing.

But back to the federal worker thing, when I was coming out of school in the late 90's you could not hire a Comp Sci major cheaply. I'll admit that there is a much different climate now and people are looking to the government as a place of security. But when that changes (and eventually it will) there are certain jobs, particularly technology based jobs, where the government has to be competitive to attract tallent. You talk about your "room full of college buddies" and your conversations about work now, but what were those conversations like during school/ around graduation? I know government work was not very high on the list among my peers (engineering students). We all viewed government work as 'lesser' cause, as 21-24 yr olds, you have no real concept of private v. public and the effect on quality of life. You (well we) wanted the dollars. It was really a confluence of 'other circumstances' that got me to choose government over private which offered more pay and pay that went further as the site was in "flyover country". But most in school wont think of the things your 'college buddies' talk about now. And once you're in a position, life's "traps" (house, school district, kids, spouse, etc.) start to show up and limit your ability (or comfort level) to change career paths. Hell, at that point the government may have to offer *even more* money to get someone to jump from private to public, despite the 'fringe benefits', just because the person may then have obligations that they have to meet (mortgage, etc).

It's far better for the government to offer at least comparable compensation to entice talent and the earlier you get them, the better. You'd get more work out of them and those 'fringe benefits' tend to help keep them. But if you're not even in the ball park, you'd get only the very drecks of the pool. And you'd still likey end up undermanned (hell, we're still hiring even in this downturn).

As far as my patriotism goes: I vote and I pay taxes, that is my obligation.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']Rich people money? That's a fucking joke. Sure, that salary sounds get in "flyover country", but part of the reason it is what it is is *because* of the cost of living. The agency is based in the DC area and they understand that they must pay accordingly. It's not like I can just move to another place *and* keep that same salary (well, my particualr agency *is* working on that but the bugs havent been worked out yet).

It's one of things that pisses me off about the whole tax debate, people argue about the 250K household upper limit as an abstraction and count every person there as "rich". Bullshit! I'm comfortable, I dont lie, but I'm not lighting cigars with Franklins while crapping on a Persian rug. There is a far distinction between say me and Oprah, but the taxes dont think so, and neither do the politicians who have aribtrarily deemed my household as "rich" and then cursed me for being so. It's no wonder that my district (VA 11th) almost booted out a decent (but not great) Congressman Connolly in view of a "Taxed Enough Already" spewing (half-failed) businessman Fimian.

You see us as "rich" and while 250K in absolute terms sounds exhoribitant, it's just slightly above average around here. You look in my neighboorhood, you won't see garages filled with Lamborghini's and yachts. You'll see 10 year old Toyota and Fords with the occasional new SUV/MiniVan/Crossover of the young expanding families. Our quality of life is good, "upper" middle class even. But if we were to lose a job or have a serious health issue all that can pass away in a blink of an eye. When I think of "rich", I dont think of someone that close to the brink.

Now, the majority of us understand that there are bills to pay and those that can best pay them should. We've benefited from the country dis-proportionately than others so we should finance dis-proportionately than other. That our disctrict rejected Fimian (again) shows that. But can we stop with the labels that we are 'greedy rich'? We may have a little more 'stuff' (though not so different from most of suburbia), but we're still working for every little thing.

But back to the federal worker thing, when I was coming out of school in the late 90's you could not hire a Comp Sci major cheaply. I'll admit that there is a much different climate now and people are looking to the government as a place of security. But when that changes (and eventually it will) there are certain jobs, particularly technology based jobs, where the government has to be competitive to attract tallent. You talk about your "room full of college buddies" and your conversations about work now, but what were those conversations like during school/ around graduation? I know government work was not very high on the list among my peers (engineering students). We all viewed government work as 'lesser' cause, as 21-24 yr olds, you have no real concept of private v. public and the effect on quality of life. You (well we) wanted the dollars. It was really a confluence of 'other circumstances' that got me to choose government over private which offered more pay and pay that went further as the site was in "flyover country". But most in school wont think of the things your 'college buddies' talk about now. And once you're in a position, life's "traps" (house, school district, kids, spouse, etc.) start to show up and limit your ability (or comfort level) to change career paths. Hell, at that point the government may have to offer *even more* money to get someone to jump from private to public, despite the 'fringe benefits', just because the person may then have obligations that they have to meet (mortgage, etc).

It's far better for the government to offer at least comparable compensation to entice talent and the earlier you get them, the better. You'd get more work out of them and those 'fringe benefits' tend to help keep them. But if you're not even in the ball park, you'd get only the very drecks of the pool. And you'd still likey end up undermanned (hell, we're still hiring even in this downturn).

As far as my patriotism goes: I vote and I pay taxes, that is my obligation.[/QUOTE]
Blah Blah Blah...$250,000 a year isn't *that* much money...:roll:

Cash poor does not equal asset poor. Just because you're doing "ok" and there are 10 year old Toyotas in your neighborhood doesn't mean squat if the house they're living in cost $900,000.
 
Don't mind these guys, if you just look back a few pages (I think it was this topic) they pretty much believe unskilled labor should pay the same as skilled labor because they both "work hard" and the unskilled people have zero chance to move up in society. They believe that skilled labor is as simple as sitting at a desk and making a phone call twice a day and going to a meeting at an expensive restaurant, and after a round of golf call it a day. That was an exaggeration although it wouldn't surprise me that dohdough actually believes that. It isn't far from what I have seen in this topic, they really have no concept of the difference between skilled and unskilled labor, and their class envy pushes them over the brink.

To them 28% is equal to 10%, and "the "rich" are not paying their share".
 
[quote name='Knoell']Don't mind these guys, if you just look back a few pages (I think it was this topic) they pretty much believe unskilled labor should pay the same as skilled labor because they both "work hard" and the unskilled people have zero chance to move up in society. They believe that skilled labor is as simple as sitting at a desk and making a phone call twice a day and going to a meeting at an expensive restaurant, and after a round of golf call it a day. That was an exaggeration although it wouldn't surprise me that dohdough actually believes that. It isn't far from what I have seen in this topic, they really have no concept of the difference between skilled and unskilled labor, and their class envy pushes them over the brink.

To them 28% is equal to 10%, and "the "rich" are not paying their share".[/QUOTE]
No, what was said is that labor deserves a living wage and that socio-economic mobility doesn't exist in any meaningful way. You're arguing that unskilled labor deserves low pay purely because it's unskilled and that they don't "deserve" more because that's just what their labor is "worth" no matter the importance of said labor. Don't be obtuse.

And for the nth time, personal utility DOES NOT EQUAL personal benefit.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Blah Blah Blah...$250,000 a year isn't *that* much money...:roll:

Cash poor does not equal asset poor. Just because you're doing "ok" and there are 10 year old Toyotas in your neighborhood doesn't mean squat if the house they're living in cost $900,000.[/QUOTE]

Dude, speak what you know and based on this post, I cant tell how much you really do know. Nobody said that there are $900K houses in this area, not even close actually. Hell, even at the peak of the housing boom we didnt approach that. And even if we *did*, those houses sure as hell wont sell for that TODAY! Assets mean shit if you cant sell the fucking thing.

I'd argue that only the oldest of my neighbors have (non-retirement) assets that out pace their obligations. Through no fault of my own, my house dropped over 70K in value. I dont cry about it, I understand cycles. I additionally understand that people with more can afford, and have an obligation to, pay more. I'm saying you dont have to be a hostile dick about it, especially when many of those people you think are so "rich" arent really that much better off as they are a couple of checks away from debtor's prison (metaphorically speaking).

It's the hostility that drives people towards the tea party and supply side economics. Liberals do a *TERRIBLE* job marketing their positions (and a worse job of having politicians who stick to them). You can present the arguments in a much different way than 'stick it to the 'rich'' especially when many of the "rich" arent even rich in the first fucking place.

(please excuse the cussing)
 
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speed:

In speed-topia, a great economy would have few projects going and a fat backlog. As the economy slows, projects would be approved slowly at first with gradually more as the interest rates fell and unemployment rose. Taxes would be decreasing as well. Then as the economy improved and interest rates rose, project starts would slow down and taxes would rise.

This is about the fifth time I have seen a con around here who has attacked stimulus jobs with a variation of "those jobs aren't permanent".

Most people in general don't have permanent jobs anymore and almost by definition those in construction don't.

Anyhoo it isn't as if someone not having a job x amount of years from now is an argument against ensuring there are jobs now to any rational person anyway.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']Dude, speak what you know and based on this post, I cant tell how much you really do know. Nobody said that there are $900K houses in this area, not even close actually. Hell, even at the peak of the housing boom we didnt approach that. And even if we *did*, those houses sure as hell wont sell for that TODAY! Assets mean shit if you cant sell the fucking thing.[/QUOTE]

The $900k house was an example, but it's not a stretch for someone making $250k a year to be able to afford a $900k house. I live in a city where there are multi-million dollar apartments across the street from shitty apartments above restaurants. I know what that $900k buys even if you have a 10 year old Honda Accord or brand new Mercedes S500. Not to mention that you don't need to deal with the same problem with houses that cost $90k in a socio-economically depressed area. Even $500k buys you a lot of intangibles so let's cut the bullshit here.

You also say that house that was bought for $900k won't sell for $900k right now? Sure, I'll give you that. But that doesn't mean that you don't have any actual equity in the house or that you aren't able to use that equity. So again, cash poor does not mean asset poor.

I'd argue that only the oldest of my neighbors have (non-retirement) assets that out pace their obligations. Through no fault of my own, my house dropped over 70K in value. I dont cry about it, I understand cycles. I additionally understand that people with more can afford, and have an obligation to, pay more. I'm saying you dont have to be a hostile dick about it, especially when many of those people you think are so "rich" arent really that much better off as they are a couple of checks away from debtor's prison (metaphorically speaking).

The fact that we have "cycles" and that you accept it is a fucking shame in itself. There was a time when the boom and bust cycle didn't happen every ten years. Those couple of checks away are big freaking checks. Not to mention that if someone is seriously making $250,000 a year, they have should enough health insurance coverage to cover any big problems like cancer, extensive surgery, and physical therapy. As a single person, my health insurance costs $6000 a year and I have unlimited caps, $15 copays, and $50 ER WITH a gym membership subsidy while making considerably less than $250k. Add another $6k for each person to get to 3 people covered on the plan and every person after that is free. Not only that, but I only pay 25% of that $6k as my employee contribution.

I'm not being a hostile dick. I'm just not going to coddle you or jerk you off to make you feel better about your privilege.

It's the hostility that drives people towards the tea party and supply side economics. Liberals do a *TERRIBLE* job marketing their positions (and a worse job of having politicians who stick to them). You can present the arguments in a much different way than 'stick it to the 'rich'' especially when many of the "rich" arent even rich in the first fucking place.

Liberal hostility drives people to the tea baggers and supply siders? That's bullshit.right.there. The truth is the truth is the truth. That should be enough marketing for you.

Let's get real. $250,000 a year buys you A LOT OF SHIT. Say you don't have a BMW 5 series or a million dollar house. If you're not saving that money, it's going somewhere...vacations, eating out, private schools, extra curricular activites, nannies, maids, landscaping, dry cleaning, pool, etc. $250k is not struggling and gives you tons more options than even $100k. You literally have to go out of your way to fuck your life up.

We're all big kids here so no need to apologize for the swearing.
 
Lol, See what I mean about Dohdough? I wonder what he believes a rational income is.....
[quote name='Dohdough']
You literally have to go out of your way to fuck your life up.

[/QUOTE]

I find the part above the most entertaining, but this part below is hilarious as well.

[quote name='Dohdough']
If you're not saving that money, it's going somewhere...vacations, eating out, private schools, extra curricular activites, nannies, maids, landscaping, dry cleaning, pool, etc. $250k is not struggling and gives you tons more options than even $100k.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe $67,000 of it goes to federal taxes. But ya know they don't pay their share right? Ridiculous. Oh I almost forgot, "they probably inherited the money from their father, and didn't even earn it" those rich bastards.
 
[
[quote name='dohdough']Let's get real. $250,000 a year buys you A LOT OF SHIT. Say you don't have a BMW 5 series or a million dollar house. If you're not saving that money, it's going somewhere...vacations, eating out, private schools, extra curricular activites, nannies, maids, landscaping, dry cleaning, pool, etc. $250k is not struggling and gives you tons more options than even $100k. You literally have to go out of your way to fuck your life up.[/QUOTE]

Last point first, it doesnt take much to "fuck your life up" as you put it. Lose your job (and corresponding health care) and have a medical disaster and your pretty well fucked. That's why I *do* believe in having a real heath care plan in this country. That's not different in a 250K household or a 50K household. And God forbid you try and start a small business and it fail (as 2/3 of them do in the first couple of years) that will have your ass taking cold showers and eating bologna sammiches real quick (I know, I've lived through it).

As for the "coddle' remark, I dont want, need or ask for your emphathy/sympathy/pity/whatever adjective you wish to use. No where in my post could you possibly gleen that without bringing your own presumptions with you. I've stated (multiple times) that I have no problem with paying more. I only stated that 1) I aint "rich" and 2) there's no need to vilify me because I make a bit of money. As if people of my ilk are sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of gold. I'm telling you the reality, but you'd rather stick to your fantasy. Fine, we have no more to discuss on that.

@Knoell: Last year, when we were just at the limit of the 28% tax bracket we paid ~$49K in federal tax (income, SSI, Medicare, employer SSI/Medicare) and another ~15K to the state (income, property). If our AGI had been the full 250K that would have been another ~14K federal (income, Medicare...SSI goes away) and 2300 state. So your estimate of 67K is not unreasonable.

It's just funny that we create jobs by hiring landscapers, nannies/daycare, roofers. We pay more in taxes than the average household in our state makes in a year. We're actually *for* raising the limit of taxable income for SSI. We're *for* health care as a matter of right in the same vein as public education (but hopefully run better). We're a working class union-dues-paying household. But we get lambasted as the "greedy rich". It's a burr in my backside!
 
[quote name='hostyl1']Last point first, it doesnt take much to "fuck your life up" as you put it. Lose your job (and corresponding health care) and have a medical disaster and your pretty well fucked. That's why I *do* believe in having a real heath care plan in this country. That's not different in a 250K household or a 50K household. And God forbid you try and start a small business and it fail (as 2/3 of them do in the first couple of years) that will have your ass taking cold showers and eating bologna sammiches real quick (I know, I've lived through it).[/quote]
Marginal utility is a concept you should familiarize yourself with. You have more in common with Oprah than some household that earns $50k a year. Barrier to entry is something you should already be familiar with. Also, assets and equity is something we have already discussed. The chances of someone even being able to start a business is much lower if you made $50, had little savings, and no equity/assets.


As for the "coddle' remark, I dont want, need or ask for your emphathy/sympathy/pity/whatever adjective you wish to use. No where in my post could you possibly gleen that without bringing your own presumptions with you. I've stated (multiple times) that I have no problem with paying more. I only stated that 1) I aint "rich" and 2) there's no need to vilify me because I make a bit of money. As if people of my ilk are sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of gold. I'm telling you the reality, but you'd rather stick to your fantasy. Fine, we have no more to discuss on that.

You're the one with the persecution complex and said that liberals(used in a less than pleasant way by you) have a PR problem and that's why everyone moves right. That bit of money you make is 5x the the average HOUSEHOLD. Cry me a river.

It's just funny that we create jobs by hiring landscapers, nannies/daycare, roofers. We pay more in taxes than the average household in our state makes in a year. We're actually *for* raising the limit of taxable income for SSI. We're *for* health care as a matter of right in the same vein as public education (but hopefully run better). We're a working class union-dues-paying household. But we get lambasted as the "greedy rich". It's a burr in my backside!
You "create" jobs. LULZ. Yup, and you also derive no benefit from them whatsoever. It's all out of the goodness of your hearts. Do you know what class warfare really is? It isn't the underclass wanting everything from the upper class; it's the power elites that turn the middle-class against the underclass while bilking both. Something to think about before you drop your "liberal" street cred and then cry about being persecuted. Your anger is directed at the wrong group.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Marginal utility is a concept you should familiarize yourself with. You have more in common with Oprah than some household that earns $50k a year. Barrier to entry is something you should already be familiar with. Also, assets and equity is something we have already discussed. The chances of someone even being able to start a business is much lower if you made $50, had little savings, and no equity/assets. [/QUOTE]

Are you saying that I am more like Oprah than I am like a 50K household or that I am closer to Oprah than a 50K household is to Oprah? If it's the latter, duh, a 60K household is closer than a 50K household. So what? If it's the *former* you're insane to think there is that great a difference b/w 50K and 250K. I've lived through each granulation, not as much has changed as one might think.

True starting a business needs capital. It doesnt need 250K capital though. And you keep harping on equity but dont even appreciate the real possibility and existance of 'negative' equity.

And of course there is a benefit to creating jobs. Again so what? Are you saying it'd be better if that job didnt exist? I end up paying more taxes into the system. There is more tax from the employee. The employee can go out an buy stuff that I otherwise might not buy that helps keep demand up. I dont see what is wrong or "LULZ" worthy about that. But hey, if you feel that way, be happy.

What are *you* doing for the country/economy?
 
[quote name='hostyl1']Are you saying that I am more like Oprah than I am like a 50K household or that I am closer to Oprah than a 50K household is to Oprah? If it's the latter, duh, a 60K household is closer than a 50K household. So what? If it's the *former* you're insane to think there is that great a difference b/w 50K and 250K. I've lived through each granulation, not as much has changed as one might think.[/QUOTE]

I'm insane for thinking there is not a great difference between $50k and
$250...ummm...yeah...I'm the insane one.

Please tell me how similar it is. You have a house in a nice neighborhood. You drive to work. You eat lunch. You have a car, probably two. Just like any regular Joe that makes $50k AMIRITE. :roll:

True starting a business needs capital. It doesnt need 250K capital though. And you keep harping on equity but dont even appreciate the real possibility and existance of 'negative' equity.

I know what negative equity is and I don't have a problem with it. I DO have a problem with predatory terms, but that's for another thread.

And of course there is a benefit to creating jobs. Again so what? Are you saying it'd be better if that job didnt exist? I end up paying more taxes into the system. There is more tax from the employee. The employee can go out an buy stuff that I otherwise might not buy that helps keep demand up. I dont see what is wrong or "LULZ" worthy about that. But hey, if you feel that way, be happy.

What are *you* doing for the country/economy?
So first you say you create jobs, then you say that you don't want to get jerked off for it, and now you say that you should be jerked off for it. So which is it? Do those jobs you "create" also allow you to live your "enviable non-rich" lifestyle? Would someone that makes $50k have the same ability or benefit? If we took $200k way from your annual salary, would you be able to live the same life? That's some pretty serious bullshit right there. Stop compartmentalizing everything at look as it from a more hollistic perspective. If you can't recognize your privilege, it's no wonder you pitch a fit when I call you out on it. You say you've lived on all the rungs of the income ladder...you should know better.

If you really want to know what I do/have done, do a search of my posts. Either way, it's still irrelevant to this discussion.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Lol, See what I mean about Dohdough? I wonder what he believes a rational income is.....


I find the part above the most entertaining, but this part below is hilarious as well.



Maybe $67,000 of it goes to federal taxes. But ya know they don't pay their share right? Ridiculous. Oh I almost forgot, "they probably inherited the money from their father, and didn't even earn it" those rich bastards.[/QUOTE]

That still leaves over 180K of spending money AFTER taxes. If you can't live off that, you're not doing it right.
 
My last post on the subject you can then have the final word.

[quote name='dohdough']I'm insane for thinking there is not a great difference between $50k and
$250...ummm...yeah...I'm the insane one.

Please tell me how similar it is. You have a house in a nice neighborhood. You drive to work. You eat lunch. You have a car, probably two. Just like any regular Joe that makes $50k AMIRITE. :roll:[/quote]

I have the same job, the same car, eat the same amount of lunches and live in a similarly nice neighborhood as I did when I made ~$50K. The difference is I own a house (that is coincidentally worth less than is owed on it). Back then, it was just me. Now it's me, the wife, and three kids. Sure, income has gone up, but so have expenses.


So first you say you create jobs, then you say that you don't want to get jerked off for it, and now you say that you should be jerked off for it. So which is it? Do those jobs you "create" also allow you to live your "enviable non-rich" lifestyle? Would someone that makes $50k have the same ability or benefit? If we took $200k way from your annual salary, would you be able to live the same life? That's some pretty serious bullshit right there. Stop compartmentalizing everything at look as it from a more hollistic perspective. If you can't recognize your privilege, it's no wonder you pitch a fit when I call you out on it. You say you've lived on all the rungs of the income ladder...you should know better.

First on the jobs what difference does it make that, say, hiring a nanny allows my wife and I to work and still raise children? Does the fact that having a nanny allows us to bring in two incomes negate that a job now exists where one didnt before? You make it seem like because I receive a personal benefit I should for some reason be ashamed. I'm not ashamed of a thing. I get something. My employee gets something. The State gets something. Who loses here? Nobody. So what's LULZ worthy of that? (I ask a 2nd time).

Again, no where have I said that the life I live is not "enviable". Who wouldn't want to be "upper middle class""? What I said and will say again in the off chance that this time you actually get it is that "upper middle class" =/= "rich". If I had the words to put a sharper point on this point I'm trying to poke you with I would, but I'd think this is enough.

If you think that I dont "recognize my privilege", whatever. It's not exactly "privilege" like it was just handed to me. It's the intersection of preparation, opportunity, and yeah a little luck. You want to call that privilege, fine, I'll let you be the lexicographer. I've been on the other side and didnt like it very much. I'm a far cry from "poor", but if you really think that upper middle class and lower middle class are so different, then there is nothing more I can or will say to you.
 
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