Is Obama our savior, our Messiah? Or is it just an Obama cult?

Obama joined the big anti-earmark legislation that recently failed in the Senate, which is a good step in the right direction. He had also joined McCain in some transparency legislation...I just wish he went into more detail as to where he'd want to cut government spending and where he wouldn't as he doesn't mention enough specifics in his fiscal plan than I'd like to see.

His other economic policies...eh, leave something missing for me. I'm not a big fan on "Bills of Rights" like a Credit Card Bill of Rights. I see that as making it almost too difficult for credit card companies. I don't like a mortgage tax credit, mostly because I don't see where the money's coming from to pay for such a credit. I could argue at length about the lack of a need to increse the minimum wage, especially considering we just increased it. I'd rather see a bracketed minimum wage system whereby those who are minors/dependents are given a different minimum wage than emancipated minors/independents. I don't think a high school kid trying to pay for gas and concert tickets needs to be making 8 bucks an hour, but a single parent working 2 jobs to make ends meet could use that or more. I also think that there has to be better ways to support job creation in the US than to double federal R&D tax credits, such as making it easier to form a small business, lowering their tax rates, or creating a tax credit for the ONLY the first few years a new small business is opened. I'm sure it'd need to be ridiculously well prepared to prevent loopholes (limits on how many an individual can request, restrictions on subdivisions of larger corporations, etc), but you get the general gist.

Basically -- I'm all with him on cutting spending and earmark reform. He's lost me once he talks about other fiscal issues. I'm sure other conservatives could give Obama a real shot and read his platforms too...and would find stuff, like me, that they agree with and have more substansive reasons to disagree with him.
 
I believe Heavy Hitter got close to a valid point a few pages back.

It was something along the lines of Obama stating he hadn't heard anything like Wright's much looped sermons. If somebody could find an exact Obama quote with the word anything used in that manner, then we could compare it to his admission from the major speech earlier this week. Most likely, that would catch Obama in a lie albeit a minor one.

The endorsement from the NBPP and scrubbing of various websites is most likely not under the direction of Obama. I believe the correct term for these statements is false flag. I mean, the KKK has endorsed Obama.

There are legitimate reasons to not like Obama. His liberal policies such as universal health care would be a good start. His opposition to the Iraq war would be a bad start.

Trying to knock anybody down based on what a different person said or did eventually becomes tedious and nonproductive.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I mean, the KKK has endorsed Obama.[/QUOTE]

Daily Squib is a satire website, much like The Onion.

t0llenz, that's all I'm looking for: a little wrangling with his actual policies. We may not wholly agree (or even disagree) there, but I just want more than a back and forth like this:

"I don't like Obama's policies."
"Which ones?"
"All that "hope" and "change" crap."
"Those aren't policies."
"I still don't like his policies."
"Such as...?"
"All of them. You know the ones."
":wall:"
 
It may be tedious and non-productive, but it has been hurting Obama in the polls and to deny that it's the case is just foolhardy.

And if you 100% support the Iraq war...that's an ample reason to disagree with Obama, just as if you 100% oppose the war it's an ample reason to disagree with McCain's positions. And if you oppose being unsure or having wishy washy views on the Iraq war, then that's a prefectly reasonable reason to dislike the views of Clinton (ZING!)

And mykevermin, I understand completely. I get that from the opposite side too. When I asked people what they disagreed with Romney or Thompson on when they were running I got a whole round of, "I don't like their policies" When asked anything specific...blank stares. Thompson wrote at length about his views/policy proposals...and Romney barely held a speech that didn't pertain to policies and to say, "Uhm...his policies" with no specifics is weak.

I wish I could pick and chose views and characteristics of the candidates and make my own Presidential candidate from the pieces :p
 
[quote name='t0llenz']It may be tedious and non-productive, but it has been hurting Obama in the polls and to deny that it's the case is just foolhardy.[/QUOTE]

What I have been saying and what others are arguing is that the effects will be minimal in the long term.

There are any numbers of reason why that would be the case, such as short attention spans, Obama's excellent response and the fact it looks as if McCain is hanging himself every time he goes on TV.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
The mean income for a black family in the United States is 60% of the mean income for a white family.
[/QUOTE]

And what percentage of that problem do you think is from the self perpetuating victim culture that runs rampant in black society versus sheer unwillingness to work hard and persevere? You can't honestly believe the rap lyric level propaganda that it's society holding them back.

I happen to be part American Indian, and half of my family is Indian. Comanche to be exact. My grandmother is half Comanche and grew up on a reservation. She absolutely can not stand Indians. Why? Because, according to her, all they do is sit around and drink and complain about the white man. Complain about history. Complain about their lack of opportunity, bitch and moan and cry and wish for more reparations, free stuff, and government programs to make their lives easier. According to her, few of them ever make it off their porches drinking thunderbird in their lives.

However, there are many Indians in my family that decided not to live this way, that decided to just pull their bootstraps up, work their asses off, and they are quite successful and happy people.

The point is, you are a victim of your environment only as far as you believe you are. You can dwell on the shitty things society did to your ancestors, and still does to you, and try and get the government to "make things fair" or you can get on with life, deal with the hand dealt, and make lemonade out of lemons.

I don't think the comparison between the African American and the American Indian is too far off. One was enslaved by white people. The other was mass slaughtered by white people. Both happened 200 years ago.

And answer me this, why do statistics show that nearly every recent immigrant to America from Africa is highly successful, highly grateful, and far less likely to view themselves as victims like American's of African decent? I personally know some African immigrants, and they often express disgust at the attitude of African Americans. What does that tell us? Does that not hint at what the REAL problem is for the black comunity?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']And what percentage of that problem do you think is from the self perpetuating victim culture that runs rampant in black society versus sheer unwillingness to work hard and persevere?[/QUOTE]

Weren't you on welfare at one point?

And answer me this, why do statistics show that nearly every recent immigrant to America from Africa is highly successful, highly grateful, and far less likely to view themselves as victims like American's of African decent?
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Because something in the neighborhood of over 75% of immigrants admitted to this country from Africa have advanced degrees and considerable wealth already.
 
[quote name='Msut77']What I have been saying and what others are arguing is that the effects will be minimal in the long term.

There are any numbers of reason why that would be the case, such as short attention spans, Obama's excellent response and the fact it looks as if McCain is hanging himself every time he goes on TV.[/QUOTE]
It appears that it may not keep dropping him in the polls (based on current polling data I saw)...his response seemed to have staved off any continued dropping in the polls, but they haven't boosted him to the levels he was at before. I think this may lead to a long term drop in his overall approval rating among Republicans and Independents that may be overcome once it's a general election instead of a primary...but with how brutal the Clinton/Obama primary has become, that's not necessarily a certainty. I agree, to a certain degree, with Rasmussen's analysis.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Weren't you on welfare at one point?[/quote]
I was on unemployment a couple times, by choice, because I had savings to augment it.

But I don't see how that makes me a victim that blames society for my ills instead of doing something about it. In every way my life sucks, has sucked, or will suck - I take ultimate responsibility for, even if it was not my fault.



Because something in the neighborhood of over 75% of immigrants admitted to this country from Africa have advanced degrees and considerable wealth already.
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Prove that please. The ones I know do not fit that.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']And what percentage of that problem do you think is from the self perpetuating victim culture that runs rampant in black society versus sheer unwillingness to work hard and persevere? You can't honestly believe the rap lyric level propaganda that it's society holding them back.[/quote]

Oh, goody. The old "I don't believe macro-level data, and here are my personal anecdotes to back that up" chestnut.

First, let me say that I do not disagree with the "culture of poverty" argument. Entirely, anyway. I prefer to consider it in terms of what sociologists Doug Massey and Nancy Denton (American Apartheid, 1993) call the "culture of segregation."

We argue instead that residential segregation has been instrumental in creating a structural niche within which a deleterious set of attitudes and behaviors – a culture of desegregation – has arisen and flourished. Segregation created the structural conditions for the emergence of an oppositional culture that devalues work, schooling, and marriage and that stresses attitudes and behaviors that are antithetical and often hostile to success in the larger economy.
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The culture of poverty is a reciprocal cause of itself, but both historical and current discrimination practices serve are boundaries upon which few blacks are able to transgress (again, go back to my brief points on the Pager article that demonstrates that antiblack racial discrimination comes with a harsher social price than having a felony conviction). "Culture of poverty" is indeed a problem, but those who desire to move beyond that (and believe me, there is very little of this Reaganesque "welfare queen" ideology, happy and peachy to be on government aid that you surely envision) are likely to find blocked opportunities in their way. Audit studies (look it up) routinely demonstrate that, in housing and in employment, there is a consistent and demonstrable degree of discrimination in the modern US.

You can claim "culture of poverty" all you want, but I see no data to support your claim. Bring it on, if you will.

Moreover, how 'bout this: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-death-row-verdictmar20,1,2944925.story

Even Sam Alito found rampant antiblack racial discrimination in jury dismissals, including this case. The only disssent on the court came from Scalia and Thomas.

I happen to be part American Indian, and half of my family is Indian. Comanche to be exact. My grandmother is half Comanche and grew up on a reservation. She absolutely can not stand Indians. Why? Because, according to her, all they do is sit around and drink and complain about the white man. Complain about history. Complain about their lack of opportunity, bitch and moan and cry and wish for more reparations, free stuff, and government programs to make their lives easier. According to her, few of them ever make it off their porches drinking thunderbird in their lives.

However, there are many Indians in my family that decided not to live this way, that decided to just pull their bootstraps up, work their asses off, and they are quite successful and happy people.

The point is, you are a victim of your environment only as far as you believe you are. You can dwell on the shitty things society did to your ancestors, and still does to you, and try and get the government to "make things fair" or you can get on with life, deal with the hand dealt, and make lemonade out of lemons.

I don't think the comparison between the African American and the American Indian is too far off. One was enslaved by white people. The other was mass slaughtered by white people. Both happened 200 years ago.
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Yeah, that's not an appropriate comparison at all, IMO. Let's see a family picture, and I am willing to guarantee you that few in your family don't "pass for white." Again, if we agree that race has a fluid definition over time, native american doesn't really stand out anymore, does it? No more than pale skin, freckles, and red hair indicates someone who is likely part Irish - but their legacy of discrimination in the US isn't as long-lasting or enduring.

And answer me this, why do statistics show that nearly every recent immigrant to America from Africa is highly successful, highly grateful, and far less likely to view themselves as victims like American's of African decent? I personally know some African immigrants, and they often express disgust at the attitude of African Americans. What does that tell us? Does that not hint at what the REAL problem is for the black comunity?
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Find me the statistics and we'll talk. I don't see your statistics. I see "I know some people who..." instead.
 
[quote name='t0llenz']how brutal the Clinton/Obama primary has become[/quote]

No doubt. I like how Hillary said only McCain and she are experienced enough to be president.

After she loses the nomination, do you think she'll endorse McCain or Obama?
 
She'll endorse herself. I don't dislike her policies all that much, but I do agree with accusations that she's a powerhungry nutjob. I personally think she'll go all "Lieberman" and run as an (I), fucking everything up for the Dems.
 
Black people also make 10-25% less than whites with the same education (more education=bigger gap, generally). It's hard to explain that as the result of not working hard enough, thrust.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']And answer me this, why do statistics show that nearly every recent immigrant to America from Africa is highly successful, highly grateful, and far less likely to view themselves as victims like American's of African decent? I personally know some African immigrants, and they often express disgust at the attitude of African Americans. What does that tell us? Does that not hint at what the REAL problem is for the black comunity?[/quote]My Mom does a lot of volunteer work with refugees from Somalia and other African countries who have gotten the chance to move to Ohio. She teaches them English, they teach her their native languages, we all eat wild food. It's pretty awesome!

One thing that struck me was their take on race. As a WASP myself, I would lump all of them mindlessly together in as "Black." But more than once they've commented that they don't like their neighbors, or that store, etc. because "All the Black people go there." For them, "black" is not a skin color as much as it is an horridly lazy and self-indulgent attitude, which I think finds a corollary with your American Indian example.

It's anecdotal, certainly, but it brought some personal perspective to me on the race issue. We have people here fleeing from their home land because of gruesome genocide and/or civil war, having family members tell them to just leave their infant child[ren] behind because they can "make another one" as they flee--yet I've never once heard them complain about race inequality in America. No doubt, it's in large part because even the worst stuff here is nothing compared to the travesties they face in their homelands.

I would be interested to see stats of the "success" rates of recent immigrants vs. peoples whose families have been here for generations, both of whose groups have similar skin color or ethnic decent.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Black people also make 10-25% less than whites with the same education (more education=bigger gap, generally). It's hard to explain that as the result of not working hard enough, thrust.[/quote]

Blanket research and numbers games aren't the end-all-be-all truth of a situation. I've worked many different jobs with many different people, and almost without exception, my black co-workers displayed the following behaviors at work:

- laziness
- a complete disrespect for authority
- total lack of care for customers
- vindictiveness
- poor attendance
- tardiness to work and back from lunch/breaks

Is that because they are black? I don't know. Am I implying that no white people displayed these same behaviors? Absolutely not. But the difference between the two groups has always been staggering.

I know this isn't scientific evidence, but I think personal experience counts for something. And when a stereotype exists for a group, and that stereotype is well-known across an entire nation (and even other countries in some cases), you gotta start thinking there is some truth to it.

My point is, basically, racial-smacial. Each person is individually responsible for their actions and future.
 
[quote name='the ender']

I know this isn't scientific evidence, but I think personal experience counts for something. And when a stereotype exists for a group, and that stereotype is well-known across an entire nation (and even other countries in some cases), you gotta start thinking there is some truth to it.[/quote]

Unfortunately you are wasting your time with natural logic like that.

You forget there is at least a couple people in here that will not accept anything but what they consider scientific studies to explain personal opinion. Personal experiences to illustrate opinions are not allowed here, as the last 5 or so posts show.

I take the world as I see it and experience it on my own and come to my own conclusions based on that. If I let my proferssors and their quoted studies color my world for me, I can imagine I'd agree with msut and mykevermin a lot more.

My point is, basically, racial-smacial. Each person is individually responsible for their actions and future.
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That's the only point I've been trying to make. The problem is, an attitude like that in today's social climate is considered at worst racist, but at the very least ignorant or insensitive. At least by some of our fellow caggers in here.
 
[quote name='the ender']Blanket research and numbers games aren't the end-all-be-all truth of a situation. I've worked many different jobs with many different people, and almost without exception, my black co-workers displayed the following behaviors at work:

- laziness
- a complete disrespect for authority
- total lack of care for customers
- vindictiveness
- poor attendance
- tardiness to work and back from lunch/breaks

Is that because they are black? I don't know. Am I implying that no white people displayed these same behaviors? Absolutely not. But the difference between the two groups has always been staggering.

I know this isn't scientific evidence, but I think personal experience counts for something. And when a stereotype exists for a group, and that stereotype is well-known across an entire nation (and even other countries in some cases), you gotta start thinking there is some truth to it.

My point is, basically, racial-smacial. Each person is individually responsible for their actions and future.[/quote]

So you're telling me a black person with a doctorate makes ~25% less than a white person with a doctorate because of these qualities?

And that your last sentence doesn't contradict everything you just said?

There are certainly lazy black people, I won't contest that fact. I'll only contest that it has anything to do with their race, just as a white person who is lazy is not lazy because of their race. I'll agree with myke that there are plenty of black people, usually young black males, that think it's hopeless and don't even try. It's a social issue though. To accept a racist stereotype is to accept that there is something inherent in that race that causes the stereotype. If the stereotype is a result of social pressure, then it's pretty useless as a stereotype since that means any person under similar social pressures would act similarly and it's useless as a mental shortcut to group people.

Racists always make exceptions to their stereotypes, it's the only way to make sense of why things don't always fit the stereotype yet they hold on to the stereotype. Adding a "but everybody is an individual" phrase to a racist stereotype is simply an example of this.

There were probably 5 replies by the time I finished writing this (I have to take notes in class too...), so I might be repeating something.

EDIT: Only 1, lucky me.
 
[quote name='SpazX']So you're telling me a black person with a doctorate makes ~25% less than a white person with a doctorate because of these qualities?
[/quote]

Absolutely. When Toba erupted and reduced the entire protohuman population down to a few thousand, the few thousand were isolated into even smaller groups. With those smaller groups breeding to themselves, evolution forced some of those groups to become vastly smarter than other groups over a few millenia due to isolated regional environmental factors.

That is why you will see virtually no genetic difference between African tribes and regions and vast genetic differences between any African tribe and any European person.

Also, interracial breeding has been shown to be less fruitful in terms of viable offspring than intraracial breeding.

Lastly, doctorate classes accommodate the intelligence of genetically inferior subspecies.
 
I think what the ender is getting at is the idea that blacks have a unique ability compared to other racial categories - that is, their actions, individually, speak for their race as a whole. Especially the bad.

We psychologically cling to those things that verify the racist stereoypes we're all aware of (and we are all aware of them), and tend to write off as aberrations those behaviors which run contrary to the stereotypes. So it's more believable and memorable when our black coworker calls in once every 8 days, but not when they come to work before us, stay after us, and work through lunch.

Again, as far as "race representation," whites have the benefit of not falling victim to that. We consider individual workers individually on their merits when white. Suzie's lazy, Johnny kisses the bosses' asses, Reggie's always showing up an hour late and hungover, etc. We don't think that our collective white coworkers evoke these stereotypes, and thus reinforce them. We respect them as individuals, not as representatives of entire groups of people.

So it's already an imbalance.

Besides, I happen to really enjoy thrustbucket's "fuck what the scientific research tells me, I'm going to go by my what I see with my own two eyes!" approach all of a sudden. Because carefully controlled field and lab research with sound theoretical grounds can't hold a candle up against what a person's gut instincts and biased interpretations tell them - even if they're wrong (and let's be honest: perceptions are often way fuckin' wrong).
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Unfortunately you are wasting your time with natural logic like that.

You forget there is at least a couple people in here that will not accept anything but what they consider scientific studies to explain personal opinion. Personal experiences to illustrate opinions are not allowed here, as the last 5 or so posts show.[/QUOTE]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Your definition of logic is more than a little lacking, and the issue at the moment isn't that your personal experiences inform your opinions -- it's that you take your personal experiences as indicative of something larger, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Your mantra of "personal experience über ales" is so ill-conceived, I don't even know where to begin.

Does the Sun revolve around the Earth because that's what it looks like to you? Holocaust didn't happen because you didn't see it? The proverbial tree in the woods can't possibly make a sound because you haven't been hiking lately? Then yeah, racism is a fairy tale, by those standards. But so is everything beyond your peripheral vision.

So have whatever opinion you'd like. But don't start swinging it around like it's anything more than that. The "I personally know better than decades of meticulously collected statistical information" is anything but logic.
 
Well, differences between the races truly do exist at the biological level. That's been shown in certain studies. However, it is unknown what impact these differences have. For example: different muscle fiber composition and mitochondrial specializations. The gist is that Northern European bodies tend to be more specialized for heat production to be able to tolerate cold environments. African bodies generally lack these specializations and are rather more specialized for efficient energy usage.

When it comes to the mind, research is in its infancy... racial differences in thought processes are hard to pin down experimentally. Plus, in the US, many blacks have some degree of mixing in their heritage... more confounders.
 
Are those genuine *racial* differences, or are they likely physiological differences that manifest themselves from thousands of years of reproducing according to the norms of natural selection in environments that encourage some characteristics and discourage others? I suppose they could be both indeed.

I'm curious about this "mixing" that you speak of, particularly since I come from a background where I believe "race" to be a fluid social construct that changes in meaning over time. Would we find statistically significant differences in physiological capacities between Irish and Italian and German peoples? Between them and Jews? Hispanics? Or are there differences even below those levels, such that we'd find differences between Israeli Jews and American Jews, European Italians and American Italians? Between red-heads and blondes? What are the boundaries of "race" in medicine that are necessary to determine if "mixing" has or has not occurred? Is it mixing when a lighter skinned black person has a child with a dark-skinned white person? Or with a very dark skinned black person?

Ultimately, I'm curious because I see these definitions as changing over time and so flexible as to be virtually useless in medicine.
 
A brilliant and spot-on op-ed from HuffPo:

Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero

When Senator Obama's preacher thundered about racism and injustice Obama suffered smear-by-association. But when my late father -- Religious Right leader Francis Schaeffer -- denounced America and even called for the violent overthrow of the US government, he was invited to lunch with presidents Ford, Reagan and Bush, Sr.

Every Sunday thousands of right wing white preachers (following in my father's footsteps) rail against America's sins from tens of thousands of pulpits. They tell us that America is complicit in the "murder of the unborn," has become "Sodom" by coddling gays, and that our public schools are sinful places full of evolutionists and sex educators hell-bent on corrupting children. They say, as my dad often did, that we are, "under the judgment of God." They call America evil and warn of immanent destruction. By comparison Obama's minister's shouted "controversial" comments were mild. All he said was that God should damn America for our racism and violence and that no one had ever used the N-word about Hillary Clinton.

Dad and I were amongst the founders of the Religious right. In the 1970s and 1980s, while Dad and I crisscrossed America denouncing our nation's sins instead of getting in trouble we became darlings of the Republican Party. (This was while I was my father's sidekick before I dropped out of the evangelical movement altogether.) We were rewarded for our "stand" by people such as Congressman Jack Kemp, the Fords, Reagan and the Bush family. The top Republican leadership depended on preachers and agitators like us to energize their rank and file. No one called us un-American.

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Consider a few passages from my father's immensely influential America-bashing book A Christian Manifesto. It sailed under the radar of the major media who, back when it was published in 1980, were not paying particular attention to best-selling religious books. Nevertheless it sold more than a million copies.

Here's Dad writing in his chapter on civil disobedience:

If there is a legitimate reason for the use of force [against the US government]... then at a certain point force is justifiable.



And this:

In the United States the materialistic, humanistic world view is being taught exclusively in most state schools... There is an obvious parallel between this and the situation in Russia [the USSR]. And we really must not be blind to the fact that indeed in the public schools in the United States all religious influence is as forcibly forbidden as in the Soviet Union....

Then this:

There does come a time when force, even physical force, is appropriate... A true Christian in Hitler's Germany and in the occupied countries should have defied the false and counterfeit state. This brings us to a current issue that is crucial for the future of the church in the United States, the issue of abortion... It is time we consciously realize that when any office commands what is contrary to God's law it abrogates it's authority. And our loyalty to the God who gave this law then requires that we make the appropriate response in that situation...

Was any conservative political leader associated with Dad running for cover? Far from it. Dad was a frequent guest of the Kemps, had lunch with the Fords, stayed in the White House as their guest, he met with Reagan, helped Dr. C. Everett Koop become Surgeon General. (I went on the 700 Club several times to generate support for Koop).

Dad became a hero to the evangelical community and a leading political instigator. When Dad died in 1984 everyone from Reagan to Kemp to Billy Graham lamented his passing publicly as the loss of a great American. Not one Republican leader was ever asked to denounce my dad or distanced himself from Dad's statements.

Take Dad's words and put them in the mouth of Obama's preacher (or in the mouth of any black American preacher) and people would be accusing that preacher of treason. Yet when we of the white Religious Right denounced America white conservative Americans and top political leaders, called our words "godly" and "prophetic" and a "call to repentance."

We Republican agitators of the mid 1970s to the late 1980s were genuinely anti-American in the same spirit that later Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson (both followers of my father) were anti-American when they said God had removed his blessing from America on 9/11, because America accepted gays. Falwell and Robertson recanted but we never did.

My dad's books denouncing America and comparing the USA to Hitler are still best sellers in the "respectable" evangelical community and he's still hailed as a prophet by many Republican leaders. When Mike Huckabee was recently asked by Katie Couric to name one book he'd take with him to a desert island, besides the Bible, he named Dad's Whatever Happened to the Human Race? a book where Dad also compared America to Hitler's Germany.

The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering. They are the same people who argue for the right to "bear arms" as "insurance" to limit government power. They are the same people that (in the early 1980s roared and cheered when I called down damnation on America as "fallen away from God" at their national meetings where I was keynote speaker, including the annual meeting of the ultraconservative Southern Baptist convention, and the religious broadcasters that I addressed.

Today we have a marriage of convenience between the right wing fundamentalists who hate Obama, and the "progressive" Clintons who are playing the race card through their own smear machine. As Jane Smiley writes in the Huffington Post "[The Clinton's] are, indeed, now part of the 'vast right wing conspiracy.' (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-smiley/im-already-against-the-n_b_90628.html )

Both the far right Republicans and the stop-at-nothing Clintons are using the "scandal" of Obama's preacher to undermine the first black American candidate with a serious shot at the presidency. Funny thing is, the racist Clinton/Far Right smear machine proves that Obama's minister had a valid point. There is plenty to yell about these days.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b_91774.html

John Hagee called Hurricane Katrina an assault by God for permitting homosexuality.
Jerry Falwell blamed the ACLU, liberals, and lesbians (among others) for the 9/11 attacks.
This happens countless times, yet Jeremish Wright does this in the context of condemning racism (something I believe many of us are opposed to), and he is slaughtered and slandered in the media.

So who was talking about double standards again?
 
Here's an article about African immigrants in DC:

Using traditional skills and knowledge, African-born entrepreneurs develop services for immigrants and the community at large: Nigerian-run Oyingbo International Market in Hyattsville, Maryland, is an example, as are tailors, dressmakers, couturiers, textile shops, and hair-braiding salons. Immigrants run weekend schools and camps to nurture cultural identity and transmit traditions to their children. African journalists, talk-show hosts, and disk jockeys feature news, interviews, music, and discussions of interest to the African immigrant community.
...
As African expatriates become immigrants, and as immigrants become citizens, they use aspects of traditional culture to maintain connections with their roots, affirm their identity, maintain positive self-images for their children, express their links to other African world people, and assert their unique contribution to their land of adoption.
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http://www.folklife.si.edu/resources/Festival1997/afrindi.htm

So these "African-born entrepreneurs develop services for immigrants and the community at large". They also "affirm their identity, maintain positive self-images for their children, express their links to other African world people, and assert their unique contribution to their land of adoption"

African immigrants are by-and-large some of the most successful and productive immigrants in American society.

Many in the non-immigrant community see their American experience and opportunity in a different light:
“Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!…We [in the U.S.] believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God.”

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing ‘God Bless America.’ No, no, no, God damn America, that’s in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme.”

- Pastor Jeremiah Wright
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This is a mindset issue.

During the twentieth century, situations kept incrementally improving for the American black community and peaked in the period directly after the 60s civil rights movement. Then the 70s drug epidemic hit - and the fragile societal network gains made by the black community were quickly strained to the breaking point. 70s culture further eroded the gains by glamorizing rebellious attitudes and the drug culture at just about the worst time for the American black community (the youth in particular). IMO this is now just being echoed out by all the gangster rap, faux prison clothing, and shallow exploitation films that by now have lost any social commentary they once may have started with and have instead become nothing but a self-parody.

Community-building is hard work, and I imagine it's easy to become desperate and hopeless. I believe that's where the Pastor's hate is coming from. But it's no excuse for inciting what could become something much worse. Compare the pastor's speech to a topical exiled religious leader whose followers face real religious oppression, whose country is in complete turmoil, whose followers live in a regime that implements a system of significantly diminished civil rights -- and who still preaches non-violence to the point of threatening to resign if the situation escalates.
 
myke, by very strange coincidence I was just considering today the parallels between Wright and Robertson/Falwell. I don't usually put any stock in the Huffington Post, but that was interesting and thanks for sharing it.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']myke, by very strange coincidence I was just considering today the parallels between Wright and Robertson/Falwell. I don't usually put any stock in the Huffington Post, but that was interesting and thanks for sharing it.[/QUOTE]

Well, glad someone liked it. I'm typically reluctant to post op-eds and blog posts - so a mixture of both really made me skeptical.

[quote name='camoor']This is a mindset issue.[/QUOTE]

Um, no.
 
The issue is not comparing Wright to Falwell, etc., it's that Daddy O has been tied to this guy for 20+ years (by his own admission). For O to say he didn't hear any of Wright's racist or anti-American hate speech (and then reverse himself) was a bad move.
 
Didn't FoC ask you for a direct quote from Obama? Though, of course, I only know too well what it's like to ask you to substantiate a claim.

As I'm sure, more nothing from you will follow.
 
I think what Heavy Hitter is referring to are the following quotes. First from his major speech --
Obama's Speech said:
Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.
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Where he said, "Yes, I've heard him say some controversial stuff before." Whereas when first confronted with it, he said in a post on the Huffington Post --[quote name='Obama at Huffingron']The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation.[/quote]These are not necessarily contradictory -- but you can see where someone could read the two of them or read what the headlines said about the two quotes, and believe them to be contrary to one another. In his major speech he said he has heard Reverend Wright use language that he disagreed with and which was controversial. In his Huffington Post article, he said he was not in church the days that he said the craziest stuff that was floating around the internet. I can understand where someone would find fault with those two statements when taken together...
 
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']Oh, there will be something. You just won't like it.[/quote]

No, we probably won't.

Let's pretend for a moment that you're right. What do you have then? You have a politician caught in a lie. OK, great, you've knocked some of the shine off of Obama.

Where do you go from there?

Do you believe Obama has some hidden racist or antiAmerican legislation? If so, what do you think it will be?

Will Obama's election magically reshape the demographics of the House and Senate or is there going to be some event like 9/11 that gives Obama a 90%+ approval rating so that he can ram said racist or antiAmerican legislation through both Houses of Congress?

What really scares you about an Obama presidency?

A candidate who can to tell the difference between Sunni and Shiite?

A candidate who'll leave the toilet seat up at 3AM?
 
Here's his talk with Anderson Cooper.

From the March 14th airing:

OBAMA:

I have to confess that those are not statements that I ever heard when I was sitting in the pews at this church. This is a church that I have been a member of for 20 years. This is a well-established, typical, historically African-American church in the South Side of Chicago, with a wonderful set of ministries.

((Uh huh. All of this stuff coming out on video and in the church bulletins and you never heard any of it. As far as "wonderful set of ministries", I hope he's referring to feeding the poor and stuff like that, not the spreading of virulent anti-White, anti-American hate that Wright seems so good at.))


COOPER: Did you not know, though, that, I mean, a couple days after 9/11, he said, you know, this was America's chickens coming home to roost, a result of what he called American terrorism around the world?

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: I mean, you may not have been there, but have you -- you must have heard that he had said these things.

OBAMA: You know, I confess that I did not hear about this until -- until I started running for president.

((Uh huh. You never talked about this with anyone - never heard of it until your Presidential run. Sure.))

OBAMA: ...And, so, I have to strongly condemn the statements that were made. They do not reflect my views or Michelle's views, or probably the views of many people in the church.

((Funny, I saw people in standing up testifying and people loudly cheering in those videos.))

COOPER: So, no one in the church ever said to you, man, last week, you missed this sermon; Reverend Wright said this; or...

OBAMA: No.

((Everyone who believes that one, stand on your head.))
 
Heavy Hitter I have asked you this before but... Who do you support anyway? Who was your ideal candidate and who do you support now Hillary or McCain?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I think what the ender is getting at is the idea that blacks have a unique ability compared to other racial categories - that is, their actions, individually, speak for their race as a whole. Especially the bad.

We psychologically cling to those things that verify the racist stereoypes we're all aware of (and we are all aware of them), and tend to write off as aberrations those behaviors which run contrary to the stereotypes. So it's more believable and memorable when our black coworker calls in once every 8 days, but not when they come to work before us, stay after us, and work through lunch.[/quote]
Hmmm. Where to go with this one......

It sounds very much like you are trying to convince everyone that we are all inherently racist against blacks, whether we think we are or not. Which I find really odd. Does this apply to you too?

You don't speak for me. No scientific study speaks for me. I find it offensive that you seem to be trying to take your precious carefully moderated scientific studies to glue each of us to a generallized behavior. In my mind, that's as bad as the racism we are trying to fight.

My own personal experiences define my views. Which are very NOT racist. I don't see how you can argue that's a bad thing. It seems as if you are trying to say that I absolutely must fit what your generalizing studies say about whites and blacks.

Again, as far as "race representation," whites have the benefit of not falling victim to that. We consider individual workers individually on their merits when white.
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Who is "we" here? Speak for yourself. I view everyone as equally as I possibly can. I don't need you or any scientist to try and convince me I don't. I can't believe you would try to make such blanket statements for an entire race.


Besides, I happen to really enjoy thrustbucket's "fuck what the scientific research tells me, I'm going to go by my what I see with my own two eyes!" approach all of a sudden. Because carefully controlled field and lab research with sound theoretical grounds can't hold a candle up against what a person's gut instincts and biased interpretations tell them - even if they're wrong (and let's be honest: perceptions are often way fuckin' wrong).
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Well it's clear to me now that my own perceptions are far less racist and far more tolerant than your so-called "studies" would attempt to convince me I am. So go live in your racist anti-black world if that's where you feel comfortable.

You are essentially making fun of me for trying to claim I am able to rise above all the shit you are talking about, as if it's impossible. You are really something. Your mommy must be proud.

I can only conclude one of three things:
1)You were drunk when you wrote that
2) I completely misunderstood your post, and it was meant as some weird allegory.
3) You are by far the most obtuse, over-educated, brainwashed person I've ever had the displeasure of meeting.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Heavy Hitter I have asked you this before but... Who do you support anyway? Who was your ideal candidate and who do you support now Hillary or McCain?[/QUOTE]

My ideal candidate? He didn't make the first cut. I don't "support" either of the two you mentioned. I have said before that I do not like McCain. He's a RINO, and I think that's bad for the party and potentially bad for the country. He's started to creep back toward the base, but I think he's just doing that to get elected.

I wouldn't vote for Hillary under any circumstances. I can't stand her Nanny-State Socialist policies, either.

How will I end up voting? Not sure yet. Why am I replying to you? Even more unsure of that.
 
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']My ideal candidate? He didn't make the first cut. I don't "support" either of the two you mentioned. I have said before that I do no like McCain. He's a RINO, and I think that's bad for the party and potentially bad for the country. He's started to creep back toward the base, but I think he's just doing that to get elected.

I wouldn't vote for Hillary under any circumstances. I can't stand her Nanny-State Socialist policies, either.

How will I end up voting? Not sure yet. Why am I replying to you? Even more unsure of that.[/QUOTE]

I'd have to agree with you. McCain is Bush 3, that much is for sure.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']...your so-called "studies"....[/QUOTE]

The thing about these (and other) studies:

When someone quotes a study, my first thought is - Who sponsored and paid for the study to get done? If they have an agenda, what is it? To know that is as important as anything the study says.

[quote name='thrustbucket']

I can only conclude one of three things:
1)You were drunk when you wrote that
2) I completely misunderstood your post, and it was meant as some weird allegory.
3) You are by far the most obtuse, over-educated, brainwashed person I've ever had the displeasure of meeting. [/QUOTE]

I'd go for #3.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Wow, you actually publicly linked to the dailykos?

That explains a lot....[/quote]

Oh, no, is Daily Kos like the Onion, too? :)

Yeah, I realized it was from Daily Kos after I put up the link.

I guess socialists can't be valid, right?

Then, I read the Fox News article linked to it. http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/0...-carries-new-black-panther-party-endorsement/

I like how the article opens with 3 paragraphs of how Obama doesn't want their endorsement, then continues for 20 paragraphs about NBPP and dredging up the whole Wright crap and ends with a link back to World Net Daily.

... Don't click the spoiler until you read the Fox News article.

How many people noticed the article on Fox News had a yellow background?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well it's clear to me now that my own perceptions are far less racist and far more tolerant than your so-called "studies" would attempt to convince me I am. So go live in your racist anti-black world if that's where you feel comfortable.

You are essentially making fun of me for trying to claim I am able to rise above all the shit you are talking about, as if it's impossible. You are really something. Your mommy must be proud.

I can only conclude one of three things:
1)You were drunk when you wrote that
2) I completely misunderstood your post, and it was meant as some weird allegory.
3) You are by far the most obtuse, over-educated, brainwashed person I've ever had the displeasure of meeting.[/quote]

That's exactly it - Myke thinks he's a champion of the people. He continually pulls out facts about racial groups that are historically disadvantaged as if this justifies any and all present behavior by these groups.

He can't understand, can't fathom that when you hold a person accountable for their words, no matter their skin tone, it may not be the most pleasant thing for that person but you are treating them with the respect and diginity they deserve - you are treating them as an equal.

The term "elitest" is thrown around much too much for my liking these days, but in this particular case it's my opinion that he has fairly earned the title.
 
One of things I find interesting about this controversy is that when it's a right-wing person with ties to a pastor, it's usually the Leftists having a fit:

z0Mg!!!!!!11!!!!!! Religious Right-Wing Nutjobs!!!!! Dangerous people!!!!!!!! Evangelical Christians!!! OH NO!!!!!!!!!Catholics!!!!!!!!Mormon!!!!!!!!OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But when it's Daddy O and his 20 year association (which he is steadfast and proud of) with an anti-White, anti-Jew, racist hate-spewer, where are all of the Leftists shouting him down?

He's feeling heat on it only because it's too big to be swept under the rug. So he gives his speech - and Chris Matthews has an orgasm on live television. Obama pulls out the race card to deflect the issue. We'll see if it halts the skid.
 
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']Chris Matthews has an orgasm on live television. [/quote]

Every time I read something about Chris Matthews, it is always negative.

Is he just completely incompetent and hated by all?
 
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