I'm just waiting for the Rev. Wright stuff to begin to fade away so we can see what, if any, longer term effect this had on Obama's polling. It definitely dropped him and he's def. prevented it from continuing to drop -- but I think it's going to be a while before he starts to boost back up again.
Is Obama our savior, our Messiah? Or is it just an Obama cult?
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[quote name='camoor']That's exactly it - Myke thinks he's a champion of the people. He continually pulls out facts about racial groups that are historically disadvantaged as if this justifies any and all present behavior by these groups.
He can't understand, can't fathom that when you hold a person accountable for their words, no matter their skin tone, it may not be the most pleasant thing for that person but you are treating them with the respect and diginity they deserve - you are treating them as an equal.
The term "elitest" is thrown around much too much for my liking these days, but in this particular case it's my opinion that he has fairly earned the title.[/quote]
I dunno if we're talking about the same things right now. Mine and myke's responses to the ender/thrust's agreement that racist stereotypes about black people have "some truth to them" in the ender's words (that thrust quoted and agreed with) are a separate issue. It seems like you're talking about Wright being held accountable and that's a different issue from that little side topic about stereotypes that I was talking about and thrust was defending in the post you quoted.
I dunno if thrust intentionally agreed that if a stereotype is well-known it's based on truth, but that's what he quoted and said was good logic. He then contradicted himself by saying that people should be treated as individuals, in the exact same way that the ender did (well he did it by quoting the ender anyway, so that was unavoidable). Stereotypes, by definition, remove a person's individuality. I find it hard to accept that a person can agree with a racist stereotype and not be racist. That would make the term racist pretty useless.
Naturally people base their opinions on their own experience, but one's own experience is biased by one's previous experiences and things people have told them combined with their natural confirmation bias. How can you say that one person's opinion based on their personal experience is more accurate the the aggregate of the actual experiences of people? How are personal observations of one group of people more accurate than the documented activities of those people? That doesn't make any sense. The entire point of these studies is to get around personal biases due to human nature and limited experience. They're not necessarily always successful, since they obviously have to be conducted by people, but they do a better job of it than one person in one place at one time. That's it, that's the point, that's what I'm saying. Studies aren't perfect, but they are a more accurate view of the living situations of a group of people than the personal opinion of the ender, thrust, you, me, myke, Wright, Bill Gates, Zombie Jesus, or anyone else by themselves.
And btw the numbers I'm using are from the US Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics, Heavy Hitter, assume biases if you must.
He can't understand, can't fathom that when you hold a person accountable for their words, no matter their skin tone, it may not be the most pleasant thing for that person but you are treating them with the respect and diginity they deserve - you are treating them as an equal.
The term "elitest" is thrown around much too much for my liking these days, but in this particular case it's my opinion that he has fairly earned the title.[/quote]
I dunno if we're talking about the same things right now. Mine and myke's responses to the ender/thrust's agreement that racist stereotypes about black people have "some truth to them" in the ender's words (that thrust quoted and agreed with) are a separate issue. It seems like you're talking about Wright being held accountable and that's a different issue from that little side topic about stereotypes that I was talking about and thrust was defending in the post you quoted.
I dunno if thrust intentionally agreed that if a stereotype is well-known it's based on truth, but that's what he quoted and said was good logic. He then contradicted himself by saying that people should be treated as individuals, in the exact same way that the ender did (well he did it by quoting the ender anyway, so that was unavoidable). Stereotypes, by definition, remove a person's individuality. I find it hard to accept that a person can agree with a racist stereotype and not be racist. That would make the term racist pretty useless.
Naturally people base their opinions on their own experience, but one's own experience is biased by one's previous experiences and things people have told them combined with their natural confirmation bias. How can you say that one person's opinion based on their personal experience is more accurate the the aggregate of the actual experiences of people? How are personal observations of one group of people more accurate than the documented activities of those people? That doesn't make any sense. The entire point of these studies is to get around personal biases due to human nature and limited experience. They're not necessarily always successful, since they obviously have to be conducted by people, but they do a better job of it than one person in one place at one time. That's it, that's the point, that's what I'm saying. Studies aren't perfect, but they are a more accurate view of the living situations of a group of people than the personal opinion of the ender, thrust, you, me, myke, Wright, Bill Gates, Zombie Jesus, or anyone else by themselves.
And btw the numbers I'm using are from the US Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics, Heavy Hitter, assume biases if you must.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='t0llenz'] I think it's going to be a while before he starts to boost back up again.[/quote]
If Obama & Co. are willing to run ads quoting Hillary saying she has experience like McCain blended with McCain's recent gaffes about Al Queda or past gaffes about his understanding of economics, his polls number will go up.
Of course, they could just wait for Custer's Last Stand aka Pennsylvania.
If Obama & Co. are willing to run ads quoting Hillary saying she has experience like McCain blended with McCain's recent gaffes about Al Queda or past gaffes about his understanding of economics, his polls number will go up.
Of course, they could just wait for Custer's Last Stand aka Pennsylvania.
[quote name='Msut77']Is there any reason why you are being so reticent?[/QUOTE]
"Heavy Hitter you can keep your vote or throw it away on McCain for all the heck anyone cares."
You've already had your say about how I may vote, so what's the point in going into this any further? And it seems you care. Why you do I have no idea.
"Heavy Hitter you can keep your vote or throw it away on McCain for all the heck anyone cares."
You've already had your say about how I may vote, so what's the point in going into this any further? And it seems you care. Why you do I have no idea.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Heavy Hitter']The thing about these (and other) studies:
When someone quotes a study, my first thought is - Who sponsored and paid for the study to get done? If they have an agenda, what is it? To know that is as important as anything the study says.
[/quote]
That's very true.
100 years from now, we may look at myke's studies the same way we look at:
http://www.neonatology.org/classics/down.html
When someone quotes a study, my first thought is - Who sponsored and paid for the study to get done? If they have an agenda, what is it? To know that is as important as anything the study says.
[/quote]
That's very true.
100 years from now, we may look at myke's studies the same way we look at:
http://www.neonatology.org/classics/down.html
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']And there it is. You don't really want to discuss anything, you're just looking to pick a fight. I don't like the taste of bait. Go away.[/QUOTE]
Who was running for President that could make someone so embarrassed that they supported them at one point?
Who was running for President that could make someone so embarrassed that they supported them at one point?
mykevermin
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Hmmm. Where to go with this one......
It sounds very much like you are trying to convince everyone that we are all inherently racist against blacks, whether we think we are or not. Which I find really odd. Does this apply to you too?
You don't speak for me. No scientific study speaks for me. I find it offensive that you seem to be trying to take your precious carefully moderated scientific studies to glue each of us to a generallized behavior. In my mind, that's as bad as the racism we are trying to fight.
My own personal experiences define my views. Which are very NOT racist. I don't see how you can argue that's a bad thing. It seems as if you are trying to say that I absolutely must fit what your generalizing studies say about whites and blacks.[/quote]
I'm saying there's as much a possibility that you fit the antithesis of such generalizations as there is that Pastor Wright will be on the 700 Club TV program this Sunday. You can deny all you want, but you've proffered nothing to support it - except, perhaps, your assertion that blacks fulfilling stereotypes of laziness and victimology is "natural logic," even when argued up in the context of one person's individual experiences (and colored by the biases that their individual perceptions).
I'm making statements about modern American society. You, me, those immigrant Africans you were pointing out the other day who love to complain about how bitchy and demanding "African-Americans" are. The biases are too persistent and solid from region to region in the US for you to act like you have *no passing knowledge of them whatsoever*. Especially when you already have shown that you know them.
You're taking this far too personally. My argument isn't that everyone is hateful and cognizantly racist; it's that racism is embedded into elements of our social structure, and moreover, that overt racist activities are so hidden that we collectively deny its very existence, despite ample, strong, and consistent statistical evidence to the contrary.
Considering all the rest of this, you were clearly very angry when typing. Why is that? Shouldn't you be thrilled to be above all of "this"?
[quote name='camoor']That's exactly it - Myke thinks he's a champion of the people. He continually pulls out facts about racial groups that are historically disadvantaged as if this justifies any and all present behavior by these groups.[/quote]
And you and others continue to ignore that THEY ARE CURRENTLY
ING DISADVANTAGED AS WELL. I know you like to *think* that blacks are disadvantaging themselves, but audit study after audit study (as well as the Pager research I suggested before and FoC linked to) demonstrate that people in positions of power, time after time, discriminate against blacks. In hiring, in promotion, in wages; in housing (mortgages, blockbusting/redlining, rental property).
DISCRIMINATION AND RACISM AGAINST BLACKS IS NOT GONE.
What don't you get about that? Some of you sound like you could write a sequel to "Birth of a Nation" the way you want to blame all blacks for the woes of blacks, and minimize the very real, the very consistent, and the very powerful antiblack discrimination that exists in this world.
You've gone so far so as to condemn the preacher who speaks out against the racism that exists because he says "god damn america," and in the process, ignore those people who say the same thing because the US is too tolerant of homosexuals and the ACLU. Imagine the irony: the one firebrand pastor who becomes a media whipping boy is the one who actually has a basis in the way our society works! Meanwhile, back at the ranch, conservative pastors who condemn the US for homosexuality, or "activist judges" (whatever that means), or whatever political movement they're against, in the process saying god will bring judgment on the US, is left alone.
Perhaps that's because we expect them to be that way at this point?
Except, of course, when they aren't being treated as equals for their words. Which Wright is not.
I won't deny it. I'm a big fan of me. Selfconfidence does not make me incorrect, however.
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']z0Mg!!!!!!11!!!!!! Religious Right-Wing Nutjobs!!!!! Dangerous people!!!!!!!! Evangelical Christians!!! OH NO!!!!!!!!!Catholics!!!!!!!!Mormon!!!!!!!!OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
Find me a conservative christian politician who distanced themselves from Falwell at any point in their careers, even after he blamed the cabal of liberal stereotypes for "help[ing] cause" 9/11.
The thing is, outside of Fred Phelps and the WBC, which NO politician is dumb enough to associate with, there is not a single right-wing conservative preacher who has been scrutinized as much as Wright this past week. Not even "Diamond" Pat Robertson.
It sounds very much like you are trying to convince everyone that we are all inherently racist against blacks, whether we think we are or not. Which I find really odd. Does this apply to you too?
You don't speak for me. No scientific study speaks for me. I find it offensive that you seem to be trying to take your precious carefully moderated scientific studies to glue each of us to a generallized behavior. In my mind, that's as bad as the racism we are trying to fight.
My own personal experiences define my views. Which are very NOT racist. I don't see how you can argue that's a bad thing. It seems as if you are trying to say that I absolutely must fit what your generalizing studies say about whites and blacks.[/quote]
I'm saying there's as much a possibility that you fit the antithesis of such generalizations as there is that Pastor Wright will be on the 700 Club TV program this Sunday. You can deny all you want, but you've proffered nothing to support it - except, perhaps, your assertion that blacks fulfilling stereotypes of laziness and victimology is "natural logic," even when argued up in the context of one person's individual experiences (and colored by the biases that their individual perceptions).
I'm making statements about modern American society. You, me, those immigrant Africans you were pointing out the other day who love to complain about how bitchy and demanding "African-Americans" are. The biases are too persistent and solid from region to region in the US for you to act like you have *no passing knowledge of them whatsoever*. Especially when you already have shown that you know them.
You're taking this far too personally. My argument isn't that everyone is hateful and cognizantly racist; it's that racism is embedded into elements of our social structure, and moreover, that overt racist activities are so hidden that we collectively deny its very existence, despite ample, strong, and consistent statistical evidence to the contrary.
Considering all the rest of this, you were clearly very angry when typing. Why is that? Shouldn't you be thrilled to be above all of "this"?
[quote name='camoor']That's exactly it - Myke thinks he's a champion of the people. He continually pulls out facts about racial groups that are historically disadvantaged as if this justifies any and all present behavior by these groups.[/quote]
And you and others continue to ignore that THEY ARE CURRENTLY
ING DISADVANTAGED AS WELL. I know you like to *think* that blacks are disadvantaging themselves, but audit study after audit study (as well as the Pager research I suggested before and FoC linked to) demonstrate that people in positions of power, time after time, discriminate against blacks. In hiring, in promotion, in wages; in housing (mortgages, blockbusting/redlining, rental property).DISCRIMINATION AND RACISM AGAINST BLACKS IS NOT GONE.
What don't you get about that? Some of you sound like you could write a sequel to "Birth of a Nation" the way you want to blame all blacks for the woes of blacks, and minimize the very real, the very consistent, and the very powerful antiblack discrimination that exists in this world.
You've gone so far so as to condemn the preacher who speaks out against the racism that exists because he says "god damn america," and in the process, ignore those people who say the same thing because the US is too tolerant of homosexuals and the ACLU. Imagine the irony: the one firebrand pastor who becomes a media whipping boy is the one who actually has a basis in the way our society works! Meanwhile, back at the ranch, conservative pastors who condemn the US for homosexuality, or "activist judges" (whatever that means), or whatever political movement they're against, in the process saying god will bring judgment on the US, is left alone.
Perhaps that's because we expect them to be that way at this point?
Except, of course, when they aren't being treated as equals for their words. Which Wright is not.
I won't deny it. I'm a big fan of me. Selfconfidence does not make me incorrect, however.
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']z0Mg!!!!!!11!!!!!! Religious Right-Wing Nutjobs!!!!! Dangerous people!!!!!!!! Evangelical Christians!!! OH NO!!!!!!!!!Catholics!!!!!!!!Mormon!!!!!!!!OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]
Find me a conservative christian politician who distanced themselves from Falwell at any point in their careers, even after he blamed the cabal of liberal stereotypes for "help[ing] cause" 9/11.
The thing is, outside of Fred Phelps and the WBC, which NO politician is dumb enough to associate with, there is not a single right-wing conservative preacher who has been scrutinized as much as Wright this past week. Not even "Diamond" Pat Robertson.
Trancendental
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[quote name='mykevermin']And you and others continue to ignore that THEY ARE CURRENTLY ING DISADVANTAGED AS WELL. I know you like to *think* that blacks are disadvantaging themselves, but audit study after audit study (as well as the Pager research I suggested before and FoC linked to) demonstrate that people in positions of power, time after time, discriminate against blacks. In hiring, in promotion, in wages; in housing (mortgages, blockbusting/redlining, rental property)
...
What don't you get about that? Some of you sound like you could write a sequel to "Birth of a Nation" the way you want to blame all blacks for the woes of blacks, and minimize the very real, the very consistent, and the very powerful antiblack discrimination that exists in this world.
...
Except, of course, when they aren't being treated as equals for their words. Which Wright is not.
I won't deny it. I'm a big fan of me. Selfconfidence does not make me incorrect, however.[/quote]
You're probably right, the corrective actions America has take have not fully resulted in an America where all groups have a level playing field. There are groups in America that are still at a disadvantage. But how do you explain the disparity with immigrant African success? Both sub-groups appear similar to the eyes, so any fair, logical person would expect that both groups would be treated the same way by society. Why does one group consistently rise above this while the other is still struggling. Is it such a radical idea that attitude and the way one views the world will influence their success?
As for far right Christian fanatics, you won't get anyone who agrees with your point more then me. I think I've just tuned it out because it's like watching two sides of a tennis match any more - who can hit the ball hardest, the political extremist christian fundies and extremist evangelicals or the muslim radicals.
And because you missed it - it was not elistest in a "you are self-confident" sense. I meant elitest in a patronizing "I know what's best for them" sense.
ING DISADVANTAGED AS WELL. I know you like to *think* that blacks are disadvantaging themselves, but audit study after audit study (as well as the Pager research I suggested before and FoC linked to) demonstrate that people in positions of power, time after time, discriminate against blacks. In hiring, in promotion, in wages; in housing (mortgages, blockbusting/redlining, rental property)...
What don't you get about that? Some of you sound like you could write a sequel to "Birth of a Nation" the way you want to blame all blacks for the woes of blacks, and minimize the very real, the very consistent, and the very powerful antiblack discrimination that exists in this world.
...
Except, of course, when they aren't being treated as equals for their words. Which Wright is not.
I won't deny it. I'm a big fan of me. Selfconfidence does not make me incorrect, however.[/quote]
You're probably right, the corrective actions America has take have not fully resulted in an America where all groups have a level playing field. There are groups in America that are still at a disadvantage. But how do you explain the disparity with immigrant African success? Both sub-groups appear similar to the eyes, so any fair, logical person would expect that both groups would be treated the same way by society. Why does one group consistently rise above this while the other is still struggling. Is it such a radical idea that attitude and the way one views the world will influence their success?
As for far right Christian fanatics, you won't get anyone who agrees with your point more then me. I think I've just tuned it out because it's like watching two sides of a tennis match any more - who can hit the ball hardest, the political extremist christian fundies and extremist evangelicals or the muslim radicals.
And because you missed it - it was not elistest in a "you are self-confident" sense. I meant elitest in a patronizing "I know what's best for them" sense.
[quote name='camoor']But how do you explain the disparity with immigrant African success? Both sub-groups appear similar to the eyes, so any fair, logical person would expect that both groups would be treated the same way by society. Why does one group consistently rise above this while the other is still struggling.[/QUOTE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_the_United_States#Educational_Attainment
We are basically importing their educated upper middle class.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africans_in_the_United_States#Educational_Attainment
We are basically importing their educated upper middle class.
mykevermin
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Msut, despite those data, what camoor's point is (and it's a very good one) is that one does not wear a college degree or postgraduate degree on their sleeve (to a certain extent, I'd argue, but that's for another day). To the naked eye, black is black is black.
[quote name='camoor']You're probably right, the corrective actions America has take have not fully resulted in an America where all groups have a level playing field. There are groups in America that are still at a disadvantage.[/quote]
There's a fantastic quote from Daniel Patrick Moynihan's 1965 report that suggests this very idea (despite the Civil Rights Act, the gains blacks needed to make on the whole to get from their legalized disadvantages from slavery and Jim Crow were enormous - and that merely passing the CRA did not lead to equality for all). Something about a race metaphor, but with blacks having to start so many yards behind whites.
I don't know the data on immigrant Africans relative to those with multiple generations in the US. I do believe that they would be included in census data on blacks, however. Do you have the separate data, or an idea where they'd be?
I've got to get off my ass and write my polemic likening modern American political discourse to professional wrestling matches, with screaming and quips and insults replacing genuine debate and reason.
I see. Hmm. Well, the data are on my side. I don't feel that I'm going with some intuitive "what feels good to me" argument, but, rather, a "here's what I know from decades of research" argument. Not to put the cause elsewhere and disavow my arguments from it, because that's impossible. But I'm most certainly not going by a "here's what I see on a day to day basis" argument.
[quote name='camoor']You're probably right, the corrective actions America has take have not fully resulted in an America where all groups have a level playing field. There are groups in America that are still at a disadvantage.[/quote]
There's a fantastic quote from Daniel Patrick Moynihan's 1965 report that suggests this very idea (despite the Civil Rights Act, the gains blacks needed to make on the whole to get from their legalized disadvantages from slavery and Jim Crow were enormous - and that merely passing the CRA did not lead to equality for all). Something about a race metaphor, but with blacks having to start so many yards behind whites.
I don't know the data on immigrant Africans relative to those with multiple generations in the US. I do believe that they would be included in census data on blacks, however. Do you have the separate data, or an idea where they'd be?
I've got to get off my ass and write my polemic likening modern American political discourse to professional wrestling matches, with screaming and quips and insults replacing genuine debate and reason.
I see. Hmm. Well, the data are on my side. I don't feel that I'm going with some intuitive "what feels good to me" argument, but, rather, a "here's what I know from decades of research" argument. Not to put the cause elsewhere and disavow my arguments from it, because that's impossible. But I'm most certainly not going by a "here's what I see on a day to day basis" argument.
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']I have said before that I do not like McCain. He's a RINO, and I think that's bad for the party and potentially bad for the country. He's started to creep back toward the base, but I think he's just doing that to get elected.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I really don't get that. The guy has voted along party lines on 87.5% of votes that have come his way. Now I don't know; maybe to be a "real" Republican, the threshold is 90% and McCain just missed it. More likely, it's "all or nothing" over on that side of the aisle, and even the slightest deviation from the ever-more rightwing base is enough to get you branded commie-pinko-liberal. I mean, it's fine -- It's no skin off my teeth if nobody votes for him. It just makes things better for candidates I prefer. But "Republican on 9 out of 10 votes" isn't enough for the conservatives? No wonder they're losing moderates left and right. (No pun intended.)
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']But when it's Daddy O and his 20 year association (which he is steadfast and proud of)[/QUOTE]
"Steadfast and proud of?" I thought you were accusing Obama of changing his story. Which is it?
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']anti-Jew[/QUOTE]
Quote please.
Yeah, I really don't get that. The guy has voted along party lines on 87.5% of votes that have come his way. Now I don't know; maybe to be a "real" Republican, the threshold is 90% and McCain just missed it. More likely, it's "all or nothing" over on that side of the aisle, and even the slightest deviation from the ever-more rightwing base is enough to get you branded commie-pinko-liberal. I mean, it's fine -- It's no skin off my teeth if nobody votes for him. It just makes things better for candidates I prefer. But "Republican on 9 out of 10 votes" isn't enough for the conservatives? No wonder they're losing moderates left and right. (No pun intended.)
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']But when it's Daddy O and his 20 year association (which he is steadfast and proud of)[/QUOTE]
"Steadfast and proud of?" I thought you were accusing Obama of changing his story. Which is it?
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']anti-Jew[/QUOTE]
Quote please.
pittpizza
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Most race theorists have shown and believe that the first generation immigrants are much more upwardly mobile than subsequent generations. This is because those who are born and raised in America, and realize the disadvantages and discrimination that take place here, are dissuaded from working as hard or trying to achieve as much as their parents did. There is more resentment.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='pittpizza']Most race theorists have shown and believe that the first generation immigrants are much more upwardly mobile than subsequent generations. This is because those who are born and raised in America, and realize the disadvantages and discrimination that take place here, are dissuaded from working as hard or trying to achieve as much as their parents did. There is more resentment.[/QUOTE]
Of course. It's human nature to find excuses rather than work hard. Overcoming that is what makes an admirable stand-up citizen.
Of course. It's human nature to find excuses rather than work hard. Overcoming that is what makes an admirable stand-up citizen.
pittpizza
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[quote name='thrustbucket'] It's human nature to find excuses rather than work hard.[/quote]
Not for first gen. immigrants. Hard work is precisely the reason they come.
People don't flood here because of our schools healthcare or movie stars, they come becasue in the USA, there is OPPORTUNITY. With hard work there is an opportunity to make money. Lots of citizens take this for granted.
The reasoning is that racial, social, and economic injustice fosters a disincentive to work hard. First generation immigrants have a basis for comparison: racist and unjust America where I can make money beats (insert developign country here) where I can't feed my family. Subsequent generations are more in tune with the disadvantages that affect their race, national origin, religion etc.. and don't have the basis for comparison that their parents did.
BTW, Vigilante justice is for hicks.
Not for first gen. immigrants. Hard work is precisely the reason they come.
People don't flood here because of our schools healthcare or movie stars, they come becasue in the USA, there is OPPORTUNITY. With hard work there is an opportunity to make money. Lots of citizens take this for granted.
The reasoning is that racial, social, and economic injustice fosters a disincentive to work hard. First generation immigrants have a basis for comparison: racist and unjust America where I can make money beats (insert developign country here) where I can't feed my family. Subsequent generations are more in tune with the disadvantages that affect their race, national origin, religion etc.. and don't have the basis for comparison that their parents did.
BTW, Vigilante justice is for hicks.
mykevermin
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Of course. It's human nature to find excuses rather than work hard. Overcoming that is what makes an admirable stand-up citizen.[/QUOTE]
It would appear that it's thrustbucket nature to accept anything and everything that supports his preconceived notions of race relations in the US, and dismiss anything that doesn't.
To think: the same person who disparaged and wrote off scientific research is now uncritically accepting a *theory*.
It would appear that it's thrustbucket nature to accept anything and everything that supports his preconceived notions of race relations in the US, and dismiss anything that doesn't.
To think: the same person who disparaged and wrote off scientific research is now uncritically accepting a *theory*.
Trancendental
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[quote name='mykevermin']I don't know the data on immigrant Africans relative to those with multiple generations in the US. I do believe that they would be included in census data on blacks, however. Do you have the separate data, or an idea where they'd be?[/quote]
Well there is this:
Well there is this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/24/e...ex=1403409600&partner=USERLAND&pagewanted=all
thrustbucket
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[quote name='mykevermin']It would appear that it's thrustbucket nature to accept anything and everything that supports his preconceived notions of race relations in the US, and dismiss anything that doesn't.
To think: the same person who disparaged and wrote off scientific research is now uncritically accepting a *theory*.
[/QUOTE]
WTF are you talking about? You make less and less sense with each post...
I'm agreeing with PittPiza. Only I would take it a step further.
First generation immigrants usually deal with the same racism or intolerance here as they did where they came from, only probably to a smaller degree (I'll leave this space for mykevermin to vehemently deny this and link to half a dozen so-called studies that show that Americans are the most vile, intolleranters on the planet towards minorities.).
Once their children and grandchildren realize just how much attention this country gives them from whining about things here, and how much power there is in playing the victim, and how powerful organizations like the ACLU love to use them - many of them choose to play that one note song most of their lives.
Note: I am not referring to any one particular race. Just anyone that could classify themselves as a "minority".
To think: the same person who disparaged and wrote off scientific research is now uncritically accepting a *theory*.
[/QUOTE]WTF are you talking about? You make less and less sense with each post...
I'm agreeing with PittPiza. Only I would take it a step further.
First generation immigrants usually deal with the same racism or intolerance here as they did where they came from, only probably to a smaller degree (I'll leave this space for mykevermin to vehemently deny this and link to half a dozen so-called studies that show that Americans are the most vile, intollerant
ers on the planet towards minorities.).Once their children and grandchildren realize just how much attention this country gives them from whining about things here, and how much power there is in playing the victim, and how powerful organizations like the ACLU love to use them - many of them choose to play that one note song most of their lives.
Note: I am not referring to any one particular race. Just anyone that could classify themselves as a "minority".
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='thrustbucket']
Note: I am not referring to any one particular race. Just anyone that could classify themselves as a "minority".[/quote]
Are you an equal opportunity racist?
Note: I am not referring to any one particular race. Just anyone that could classify themselves as a "minority".[/quote]
Are you an equal opportunity racist?
thrustbucket
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Are you an equal opportunity racist?[/QUOTE]
I'm not anymore racist than you.
But if I were racist, I'd try to be. Because I believe everyone deserves an equal opportunity.
I'm not anymore racist than you.
But if I were racist, I'd try to be. Because I believe everyone deserves an equal opportunity.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='thrustbucket']I'm not anymore racist than you.
But if I were racist, I'd try to be. Because I believe everyone deserves an equal opportunity.[/quote]
What basis do you have that the races ARE equal?
But if I were racist, I'd try to be. Because I believe everyone deserves an equal opportunity.
[/quote]What basis do you have that the races ARE equal?
Trancendental
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Once their children and grandchildren realize just how much attention this country gives them from whining about things here, and how much power there is in playing the victim, and how powerful organizations like the ACLU love to use them - many of them choose to play that one note song most of their lives.[/quote]
Just want to point out it isn't so much the ACLU that does this. I actually kind of like the ACLU.
Just want to point out it isn't so much the ACLU that does this. I actually kind of like the ACLU.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='camoor']Just want to point out it isn't so much the ACLU that does this. I actually kind of like the ACLU.[/QUOTE]
Well we might have to disagree there. I'm not sure I can support an organization that supports the sale of child pornography but was nowhere to be seen when Don Imus made his "joke" - and considers it a defender of the first amendment.
Well we might have to disagree there. I'm not sure I can support an organization that supports the sale of child pornography but was nowhere to be seen when Don Imus made his "joke" - and considers it a defender of the first amendment.
pittpizza
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The ACLU doesn't support the sale of child pornography; that's just ridiculous. What bit of information did you use to torture that conclusion out of?
Also, it makes perfect sense for an organization to stay out of something where they have no clear stance on the issue. Imus' racists remarks was not a free speech issue at all, nobody challenged his "right" to say it, simply its propriety. Hate speech is a touchy and tough issue, even for looney lefts like myself. I hate racism more than anything, but I also hate censorship, so hate speech is a tough issue.
Also, it makes perfect sense for an organization to stay out of something where they have no clear stance on the issue. Imus' racists remarks was not a free speech issue at all, nobody challenged his "right" to say it, simply its propriety. Hate speech is a touchy and tough issue, even for looney lefts like myself. I hate racism more than anything, but I also hate censorship, so hate speech is a tough issue.
Trancendental
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Well we might have to disagree there. I'm not sure I can support an organization that supports the sale of child pornography but was nowhere to be seen when Don Imus made his "joke" - and considers it a defender of the first amendment.[/quote]
I never heard about that. I do know they've supported the right to free speech for everyone (including white supremacists), and the whole Imus controversy was more commercial then legal.
To be honest the last thing I want to see a non-profit free speech advocacy group doing is lobbying to save the profits of NBC (who Imus worked for) - especially when the big news corpos put themselves in this position by getting into bed with politicians in the first place. Much better they protect the free speech of ppl who otherwise have no recourse.
I never heard about that. I do know they've supported the right to free speech for everyone (including white supremacists), and the whole Imus controversy was more commercial then legal.
To be honest the last thing I want to see a non-profit free speech advocacy group doing is lobbying to save the profits of NBC (who Imus worked for) - especially when the big news corpos put themselves in this position by getting into bed with politicians in the first place. Much better they protect the free speech of ppl who otherwise have no recourse.
Trancendental
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[quote name='pittpizza']...Imus' racists remarks was not a free speech issue at all, nobody challenged his "right" to say it, simply its propriety. Hate speech is a touchy and tough issue, even for looney lefts like myself. I hate racism more than anything, but I also hate censorship, so hate speech is a tough issue.[/quote]
Actually they did challenge his right to say it - many advocated his removal from radio by govt if necessary because his comments were made "on public airwaves".
Actually they did challenge his right to say it - many advocated his removal from radio by govt if necessary because his comments were made "on public airwaves".
BigT
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People are way too touchy in America. Oh no! He called me a bad name, wah wah! Give me a million $ for emotional distress... 
If anything blacks have a advantage in a pursuit of higher education. In every institution of education that I've been a part of, administrators do everything in their power to admit as many reasonably qualified blacks and latinos as possible. Ironically, the hard working blacks from Africa are the ones taking advantage of it (as are some smart African Americans). However, the overall culture in America pretty much puts no stock in education and there is very little promotion of education on TV or even in schools (hell, athletes in get much better press/treatment in high school than anyone who focuses on education... oh, you got your 4.6 GPA and perfect GPA... good for you... no one really cares... it's not seen as the cool thing to do). In the inner cities, I'd bet the problem is much worse... the opportunities for American blacks in the higher education system are there... unfortunately for various reasons, they do not always take advantage of them.
If anything blacks have a advantage in a pursuit of higher education. In every institution of education that I've been a part of, administrators do everything in their power to admit as many reasonably qualified blacks and latinos as possible. Ironically, the hard working blacks from Africa are the ones taking advantage of it (as are some smart African Americans). However, the overall culture in America pretty much puts no stock in education and there is very little promotion of education on TV or even in schools (hell, athletes in get much better press/treatment in high school than anyone who focuses on education... oh, you got your 4.6 GPA and perfect GPA... good for you... no one really cares... it's not seen as the cool thing to do). In the inner cities, I'd bet the problem is much worse... the opportunities for American blacks in the higher education system are there... unfortunately for various reasons, they do not always take advantage of them.
mykevermin
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[quote name='BigT']People are way too touchy in America. Oh no! He called me a bad name, wah wah! Give me a million $ for emotional distress... [/QUOTE]
It's far more than "he called me a bad name," and you know it. There's a good article out there (watch out, paranoid types! More research! At least this time it's qualitative, so you can argue selection bias blah blah blah) called "The Continuing Significance of Race: Antiblack Discrimination in Public Places" (something like that) by Joe Feagin. It's either in there or a similar piece where an interview subject likens racism to "a thousand little daggers."
Imus isn't one incident. It's being seated in the empty section of a restaurant (or worse, ignored), being pulled over for being in a "white" neighborhood; it's being followed in damn near every store you try to shop in; it's having people cross the street rather than walk by you; it's the repetition of these patterns on a daily basis.
As for the rest of your post...just *wow*.
[/QUOTE]It's far more than "he called me a bad name," and you know it. There's a good article out there (watch out, paranoid types! More research! At least this time it's qualitative, so you can argue selection bias blah blah blah) called "The Continuing Significance of Race: Antiblack Discrimination in Public Places" (something like that) by Joe Feagin. It's either in there or a similar piece where an interview subject likens racism to "a thousand little daggers."
Imus isn't one incident. It's being seated in the empty section of a restaurant (or worse, ignored), being pulled over for being in a "white" neighborhood; it's being followed in damn near every store you try to shop in; it's having people cross the street rather than walk by you; it's the repetition of these patterns on a daily basis.
As for the rest of your post...just *wow*.
BigT
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[quote name='mykevermin']
Imus isn't one incident. It's being seated in the empty section of a restaurant (or worse, ignored), being pulled over for being in a "white" neighborhood; it's being followed in damn near every store you try to shop in; it's having people cross the street rather than walk by you; it's the repetition of these patterns on a daily basis.
As for the rest of your post...just *wow*.[/quote]
Maybe it's because I live in Los Angeles, but I really haven't ever seen any of those things that you mention during my lifetime.
As far as the "wow" is concerned, are you stunned by the truth within my post? It's simple:
1.) Institutes of higher education welcome blacks with open arms. In fact, it seems like their ideal student would be a black transgendered female lesbian. If they do reasonably well on the SAT and have a decent GPA, admission to a college is virtually 100% guaranteed.
2.) Blacks are held down more by their communities. Inner city schools are terrible and will always be terrible. Unfortunately, those who want to learn may not be able to afford it. I think they should be allowed to get vouchers and commute to private schools. Plus, the whole attitude has to change; gang and hip hop culture puts a big emphasis on being a thug or an athlete, but education is seen as ultra-dorky and stupid.
Imus isn't one incident. It's being seated in the empty section of a restaurant (or worse, ignored), being pulled over for being in a "white" neighborhood; it's being followed in damn near every store you try to shop in; it's having people cross the street rather than walk by you; it's the repetition of these patterns on a daily basis.
As for the rest of your post...just *wow*.[/quote]
Maybe it's because I live in Los Angeles, but I really haven't ever seen any of those things that you mention during my lifetime.
As far as the "wow" is concerned, are you stunned by the truth within my post? It's simple:
1.) Institutes of higher education welcome blacks with open arms. In fact, it seems like their ideal student would be a black transgendered female lesbian. If they do reasonably well on the SAT and have a decent GPA, admission to a college is virtually 100% guaranteed.
2.) Blacks are held down more by their communities. Inner city schools are terrible and will always be terrible. Unfortunately, those who want to learn may not be able to afford it. I think they should be allowed to get vouchers and commute to private schools. Plus, the whole attitude has to change; gang and hip hop culture puts a big emphasis on being a thug or an athlete, but education is seen as ultra-dorky and stupid.
You're not going to change myke's mind. No matter how level the playing field is, hell - even how much it can be tilted for a non-white, in his eyes they'll always be victims of the oppresive racist white society that exists in his mind and those that both thrive through race-baiting and those that have bought into it.
This thread went way off track several pages ago since the race card was played. None should be surprised that this happened in an Obama thread - after all, Daddy O did the same thing.
This thread went way off track several pages ago since the race card was played. None should be surprised that this happened in an Obama thread - after all, Daddy O did the same thing.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='pittpizza']The ACLU doesn't support the sale of child pornography; that's just ridiculous. What bit of information did you use to torture that conclusion out of?[/quote]
In 1982 in the Supreme Court case of New York Vs Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, the ACLU argued that the possession of Child Porn should not be illegal.
Twilight of liberty summarizes:
Ok, whatever. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that the ACLU is a non-partisan organization without political agendas.
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']
You're not going to change myke's mind. No matter how level the playing field is, hell - even how much it can be tilted for a non-white, in his eyes they'll always be victims of the oppresive racist white society that exists in his mind and those that both thrive through race-baiting and those that have bought into it.[/quote]
Yeah and I love how Obama called his grandmother "a typical white person", and gets off scot free.
However, if anyone ever referred to someone in a speech as a "typical black person" or "typical asian person" they would immediately be destroyed by the media.
But I'm sure Myke has an answer and explanation for how this is not a double standard. Probably comes with a warped history lesson to. And I'm sure it has something to do with prisons.
In 1982 in the Supreme Court case of New York Vs Ferber, 458 U.S. 747, the ACLU argued that the possession of Child Porn should not be illegal.
Twilight of liberty summarizes:
Ok, whatever. Just don't delude yourself into thinking that the ACLU is a non-partisan organization without political agendas.
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']
You're not going to change myke's mind. No matter how level the playing field is, hell - even how much it can be tilted for a non-white, in his eyes they'll always be victims of the oppresive racist white society that exists in his mind and those that both thrive through race-baiting and those that have bought into it.[/quote]
Yeah and I love how Obama called his grandmother "a typical white person", and gets off scot free.
However, if anyone ever referred to someone in a speech as a "typical black person" or "typical asian person" they would immediately be destroyed by the media.
But I'm sure Myke has an answer and explanation for how this is not a double standard. Probably comes with a warped history lesson to. And I'm sure it has something to do with prisons.
What the is the thesis sentence in here again? "Racism doesn't exist"? "Black people are lazy and make excuses about it"? All that shit's true, you know. If black people would stop driving nice cars, they wouldn't be pulled over more than whites; it's their own fault for driving. And sure, we can admit that inner city schools aren't that good, but if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could do as well as anyone. I mean, if "having to work harder for the same results as others" isn't an equal playing field, I don't know what is. And hey, thank god well-educated black professionals are never denied a cab or an apartment based on the color of their skin alone. Their education took care of that. I mean, I've never seen that happen personally, and I'm not black and the odds I'd notice that happen to someone else are negligible, but hey, it -- my personal observations totally outweigh things like "data" and "evidence" and "facts," even when those things are people literally admitting to anonymous surveys and polls that yes, they treat minorities differently. Oh, I ever tell you guys about the time I saw a UFO? I did, you know. Crazy shit. Gave me the anal probe and everything.
I nominate this for Most Stupidity in a Thread on CAG. Seriously, this is the most contra-factual bullshit I've seen in forever, and I was around for DragonLordFrodo. Next time I'm in here, you people are going to be talking about cavemen riding around on dinosaurs or something. It's like watching people reason an idea to it's conclusion ... but in reverse.
is the thesis sentence in here again? "Racism doesn't exist"? "Black people are lazy and make excuses about it"? All that shit's true, you know. If black people would stop driving nice cars, they wouldn't be pulled over more than whites; it's their own fault for driving. And sure, we can admit that inner city schools aren't that good, but if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could do as well as anyone. I mean, if "having to work harder for the same results as others" isn't an equal playing field, I don't know what is. And hey, thank god well-educated black professionals are never denied a cab or an apartment based on the color of their skin alone. Their education took care of that. I mean, I've never seen that happen personally, and I'm not black and the odds I'd notice that happen to someone else are negligible, but hey, it -- my personal observations totally outweigh things like "data" and "evidence" and "facts," even when those things are people literally admitting to anonymous surveys and polls that yes, they treat minorities differently. Oh, I ever tell you guys about the time I saw a UFO? I did, you know. Crazy shit. Gave me the anal probe and everything.I nominate this for Most Stupidity in a Thread on CAG. Seriously, this is the most contra-factual bullshit I've seen in forever, and I was around for DragonLordFrodo. Next time I'm in here, you people are going to be talking about cavemen riding around on dinosaurs or something. It's like watching people reason an idea to it's conclusion ... but in reverse.
Ikohn4ever
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[quote name='thrustbucket']
Yeah and I love how Obama called his grandmother "a typical white person", and gets off scot free.
However, if anyone ever referred to someone in a speech as a "typical black person" or "typical asian person" they would immediately be destroyed by the media.
/quote]
well even though I don't like generalizing he is 50% white, so this gives him some allowances to talk about both black and white people. Now if he said typical asian it would be totally different. Though you prob don't care. And will still scream double standard.
Yeah and I love how Obama called his grandmother "a typical white person", and gets off scot free.
However, if anyone ever referred to someone in a speech as a "typical black person" or "typical asian person" they would immediately be destroyed by the media.
/quote]
well even though I don't like generalizing he is 50% white, so this gives him some allowances to talk about both black and white people. Now if he said typical asian it would be totally different. Though you prob don't care. And will still scream double standard.
mykevermin
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If I were to use one non-data metric to measure "truth," it would be "do they use a Vagrant Story avatar online or not?"
VanillaGorilla
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[quote name='mykevermin']If I were to use one non-data metric to measure "truth," it would be "do they use a Vagrant Story avatar online or not?"[/quote]Yeah, because wrestling shit is so much better.
mykevermin
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You try too hard, posuer.
VanillaGorilla
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[quote name='mykevermin']You try too hard, posuer.[/quote]I'm not the one who types out multi paragraph threads about political issues on a ing video games message board. Way to put all that education to use!
ing video games message board. Way to put all that education to use!thrustbucket
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[quote name='trq'] but if they just pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, they could do as well as anyone. I mean, if "having to work harder for the same results as others" isn't an equal playing field, I don't know what is. [/QUOTE]
You don't honestly believe this is common today do you?
I have two friends and one family member that were denied jobs, or passed over for promotions, for less experienced or lower performing minorities.
And yes, in two cases they were outright told by their employer that they feared consequences if they didn't go with the minority (one was a fire department).
I have had two bosses from two separate jobs privately complain to me how much they feared hiring women and minorities. Not because they were racist, but how if they end up sucking how nearly impossible it is to fire them without being sued. They literally have to have a mountain of evidence to fire them, meanwhile they have to put up with poor performance. However, they laughed about how easy it is to fire a white male - you really need no good reason.
So do you want to keep discussing how racially screwed up and unfair this country is?
My point? The PC atmosphere and laws in this country do a lot more to sustain racial tension than fight it.
You don't honestly believe this is common today do you?
I have two friends and one family member that were denied jobs, or passed over for promotions, for less experienced or lower performing minorities.
And yes, in two cases they were outright told by their employer that they feared consequences if they didn't go with the minority (one was a fire department).
I have had two bosses from two separate jobs privately complain to me how much they feared hiring women and minorities. Not because they were racist, but how if they end up sucking how nearly impossible it is to fire them without being sued. They literally have to have a mountain of evidence to fire them, meanwhile they have to put up with poor performance. However, they laughed about how easy it is to fire a white male - you really need no good reason.
So do you want to keep discussing how racially screwed up and unfair this country is?
My point? The PC atmosphere and laws in this country do a lot more to sustain racial tension than fight it.
thrustbucket
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You are right, it is still a double standard. Especially because Obama has made it abundantly clear that he identifies himself as an African American. Even still, a person's race should never give them a pass to make racial generalizations, even about their own race. Not if they want to be a respected person that takes the higher ground.
You do bring up an interesting point though. Obama being 50/50 black and white does put him in the unique strategically superior position to play racial cards from each hand to further his cause. And he certainly does. Now, if only he were a woman, he'd have three hands to play
. But I think we can all agree that the black half of his racial profile has helped his political career more than the white.[quote name='thrustbucket']You don't honestly believe this is common today do you?
I have two friends and one family member that were denied jobs, or passed over for promotions, for less experienced or lower performing minorities.
And yes, in two cases they were outright told by their employer that they feared consequences if they didn't go with the minority (one was a fire department).
I have had two bosses from two separate jobs privately complain to me how much they feared hiring women and minorities. Not because they were racist, but how if they end up sucking how nearly impossible it is to fire them without being sued. They literally have to have a mountain of evidence to fire them, meanwhile they have to put up with poor performance. However, they laughed about how easy it is to fire a white male - you really need no good reason.
So do you want to keep discussing how racially screwed up and unfair this country is?
My point? The PC atmosphere and laws in this country do a lot more to sustain racial tension than fight it.[/quote]
While we're throwing out anecdotes: My mother is an experienced, effective and long tenured state worker who just received her masters degree from a prestigious New England university.
Recently at her workplace she was passed over *again* for a supervisor position despite essentially being the next in line and one of the most qualified for such a promotion. The guy who got the job? A white man who lacked both the enthusiasm for the job and the experience that my mother has.
It's worth noting that there's never been a black supervisor in the 50 year history of where she works.
My point? Discrimination against qualified blacks is still prevalent today.
I have two friends and one family member that were denied jobs, or passed over for promotions, for less experienced or lower performing minorities.
And yes, in two cases they were outright told by their employer that they feared consequences if they didn't go with the minority (one was a fire department).
I have had two bosses from two separate jobs privately complain to me how much they feared hiring women and minorities. Not because they were racist, but how if they end up sucking how nearly impossible it is to fire them without being sued. They literally have to have a mountain of evidence to fire them, meanwhile they have to put up with poor performance. However, they laughed about how easy it is to fire a white male - you really need no good reason.
So do you want to keep discussing how racially screwed up and unfair this country is?
My point? The PC atmosphere and laws in this country do a lot more to sustain racial tension than fight it.[/quote]
While we're throwing out anecdotes: My mother is an experienced, effective and long tenured state worker who just received her masters degree from a prestigious New England university.
Recently at her workplace she was passed over *again* for a supervisor position despite essentially being the next in line and one of the most qualified for such a promotion. The guy who got the job? A white man who lacked both the enthusiasm for the job and the experience that my mother has.
It's worth noting that there's never been a black supervisor in the 50 year history of where she works.
My point? Discrimination against qualified blacks is still prevalent today.
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']Is this how it goes when someone says something that contradicts some of the thread-derailing race card bullshit that's getting thrown around here?
Have a couple of drinks or something. Maybe take a few valium.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='thrustbucket']You don't honestly believe this is common today do you?[/QUOTE]
Believe what's common? That minorities, as a general rule, lack the same opportunities as their non-minority counterparts? You really just have to look at education to know that's true. It's the primary way to improve yourself in this country, and frankly it completely fails huge numbers of students. Which students? The ones who are poor, who need the upward mobility that education provides the most, and oh yeah: who are overwhelmingly minority. And that's just for starters.
Look, I grew up dirt poor. I know for a fact that white folks don't spend their time sipping cocktails poolside and thinking up new ways to keep the black man down. I've had people tell me with a straight face that white folks get to retire at 50, and I once spent almost three hours on a street corner arguing with the Black Israelites.
But I've also had prospective landlords ask to make sure the people I'd be living with weren't black, and I once saw a black guy not get hired where I was working because "he'd probably be lazy." Racism isn't just a guy in a hood hanging you from a tree; it's "separate, but equal." I know you guys want to dismiss Myke's prison data out of hand, but it's a good example, because that's where a lot of this stuff is closest to the surface. Look at the Rockefeller drug laws: there doesn't have to be a single unjustly convicted black man in prison for the system to be fundamentally racist.
To use a less loaded example: how often do you notice whether a building is wheelchair accessible? Unless you're in one, I bet it's not very often, and when you do, it's probably because you noticed that it *is* accessible, not that it isn't.
[quote name='thrustbucket']So do you want to keep discussing how racially screwed up and unfair this country is?
My point? The PC atmosphere and laws in this country do a lot more to sustain racial tension than fight it.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that anyone is going to tell you the current laws are perfect, but we've don't have to speculate about what it would be like without them. Straight from Wiki:
Not all racial segregation laws have been repealed in the United States, although Supreme Court rulings have rendered them unenforceable and illegal to carry out. For instance, the Alabama Constitution still mandates that Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race.[28] A proposal to repeal this provision was narrowly defeated in 2004.
You might also want to look up "redlining," too.
Have a couple of drinks or something. Maybe take a few valium.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='thrustbucket']You don't honestly believe this is common today do you?[/QUOTE]
Believe what's common? That minorities, as a general rule, lack the same opportunities as their non-minority counterparts? You really just have to look at education to know that's true. It's the primary way to improve yourself in this country, and frankly it completely fails huge numbers of students. Which students? The ones who are poor, who need the upward mobility that education provides the most, and oh yeah: who are overwhelmingly minority. And that's just for starters.
Look, I grew up dirt poor. I know for a fact that white folks don't spend their time sipping cocktails poolside and thinking up new ways to keep the black man down. I've had people tell me with a straight face that white folks get to retire at 50, and I once spent almost three hours on a street corner arguing with the Black Israelites.
But I've also had prospective landlords ask to make sure the people I'd be living with weren't black, and I once saw a black guy not get hired where I was working because "he'd probably be lazy." Racism isn't just a guy in a hood hanging you from a tree; it's "separate, but equal." I know you guys want to dismiss Myke's prison data out of hand, but it's a good example, because that's where a lot of this stuff is closest to the surface. Look at the Rockefeller drug laws: there doesn't have to be a single unjustly convicted black man in prison for the system to be fundamentally racist.
To use a less loaded example: how often do you notice whether a building is wheelchair accessible? Unless you're in one, I bet it's not very often, and when you do, it's probably because you noticed that it *is* accessible, not that it isn't.
[quote name='thrustbucket']So do you want to keep discussing how racially screwed up and unfair this country is?
My point? The PC atmosphere and laws in this country do a lot more to sustain racial tension than fight it.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that anyone is going to tell you the current laws are perfect, but we've don't have to speculate about what it would be like without them. Straight from Wiki:
Not all racial segregation laws have been repealed in the United States, although Supreme Court rulings have rendered them unenforceable and illegal to carry out. For instance, the Alabama Constitution still mandates that Separate schools shall be provided for white and colored children, and no child of either race shall be permitted to attend a school of the other race.[28] A proposal to repeal this provision was narrowly defeated in 2004.
You might also want to look up "redlining," too.
Ikohn4ever
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[quote name='thrustbucket']You are right, it is still a double standard. Especially because Obama has made it abundantly clear that he identifies himself as an African American. Even still, a person's race should never give them a pass to make racial generalizations, even about their own race. Not if they want to be a respected person that takes the higher ground.
You do bring up an interesting point though. Obama being 50/50 black and white does put him in the unique strategically superior position to play racial cards from each hand to further his cause. And he certainly does. Now, if only he were a woman, he'd have three hands to play. But I think we can all agree that the black half of his racial profile has helped his political career more than the white.[/quote]
everyone uses their differences to their advantage. You really think a man could get away with crying twice in a presidential campaign. Hillary def uses the fact she is a woman to her advantage. While McCain being old, people expect
him to be wise/smart from all his years of experience. It would be foolish for all three of them to not use every possible advantage to win.
You do bring up an interesting point though. Obama being 50/50 black and white does put him in the unique strategically superior position to play racial cards from each hand to further his cause. And he certainly does. Now, if only he were a woman, he'd have three hands to play
. But I think we can all agree that the black half of his racial profile has helped his political career more than the white.[/quote]everyone uses their differences to their advantage. You really think a man could get away with crying twice in a presidential campaign. Hillary def uses the fact she is a woman to her advantage. While McCain being old, people expect
him to be wise/smart from all his years of experience. It would be foolish for all three of them to not use every possible advantage to win.
numbier_wun
CAGiversary!
Black people are going to vote for Obama just because he's black. Women are going to vote for Hillary just because she's a woman. Although both of them would make terrible presidents. I'm not a Hucklebee or a McCain supporter either, though. Stephen Colbert should be president.
[quote name='numbier_wun']Black people are going to vote for Obama just because he's black. Women are going to vote for Hillary just because she's a woman. Although both of them would make terrible presidents. I'm not a Hucklebee or a McCain supporter either, though. Stephen Colbert should be president.[/quote]What will the black women do?!
bread's done