Is playing private servers immoral?

[quote name='hustletron']Immoral is still charging $15 a month after 4 years of loyalty.[/QUOTE]

Its not about being loyal, its about business. And any business is around to make money. Dont act like just because you have been paying for their service for years that they owe you something. If you eat at mcdonalds for a long time they dont owe you a free big mac or a discount. Hell Ive been shopping at krogers since I was a kid but they dont say "Well mr gargus youve shopped here so long you deserve a storewide discount". Thats not how the real world works and its naive to think otherwise.

Besides for being their customer they already give you free content updates on a regular basis which most everyother mmo doesnt do.

[quote name='JasonTerminator']The only product you paid for is a license to play WoW on official servers. The only right you have is to play WoW on official servers. Any other "rights" that you purport to have are fabricated on your part to justify your stealing.

Purchasing a TV means you own it. You own the TV and as such can use it as you please. You don't own WoW, therefore you cannot do with it as you please.[/QUOTE]

Not to mention before you can even get in the game you have to agree to the EULA which means you agree to their rules, terms and conditions of the game. And those rules dont apply to the people just playing on their servers, those rules you agree to belong to anyone. Saying "well I agree to their rules but since Im not playing on their server or paying for it they dont apply to me" doesnt work.

But he is right your basically paying for the ability to play their game but its still their game. Your not buying the code or title to the game. You just pay for the ability to play their game on their servers, kind of like paying to rent a care where you pay so you have the ability to drive the car but you dont actually own.
 
A lot of companies don't give out discounts to loyal customers due to the fact that the company isn't raking in the cash and needs all the help it can get.. Also some online games only charge because they NEED the money to keep the server running.. Blizzard don't have either of these problems.

I think it would be more wrong to play a private server of a tiny little game that is struggling to survive, but if it's a gigantic faceless company such as Blizzard.. is it REALLY that bad?

There is an interesting article by a developer of a game that is very interesting and relates to this whole debate: http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works (Credit to Megazell for linking this to me).
 
[quote name='Sporadic']I get intellectual property. If somebody takes art/music/code that Blizzard created out of World Of Warcraft and put it into their work without permission, that's wrong. [/QUOTE]
How do you make a private server without using Blizzard's code without their permission?
 
[quote name='Phelmo']A lot of companies don't give out discounts to loyal customers due to the fact that the company isn't raking in the cash and needs all the help it can get.. Also some online games only charge because they NEED the money to keep the server running.. Blizzard don't have either of these problems.

I think it would be more wrong to play a private server of a tiny little game that is struggling to survive, but if it's a gigantic faceless company such as Blizzard.. is it REALLY that bad?

There is an interesting article by a developer of a game that is very interesting and relates to this whole debate: http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works (Credit to Megazell for linking this to me).[/QUOTE]

You think running over 200 realms in WoW doesn't cost money, and each realm is a server farm of 10 servers or more? And that's just North America.

I understand the position that it's "less evil" to steal from Walmart rather than the mom and pop store next door, but the position that you're being some kind of robin hood is just plain stupid. Stealing is stealing.

In regards to your article: I'm not trying to convince people to pay for things. I just want people that steal things to have the guts to admit they steal things! I steal movies and music all the time! Just because I do it doesn't mean it's not wrong and I'm not stealing, it just means I'm ok with it for whatever reason.
 
If you are playing a private server and not the official server, then Blizzard don't need to pay for the servers that you would be using (if you understand what I mean..). I understand what you mean about the stealing thing though.. But like I said about games that are no longer run or distributed by the creators.. I think that it's 100% moral to play those games on a private server, unless there was a real reason that the creators wanted the game taken down for good and they never wanted anybody to ever play it again..

But it is what it is.. the guy in the article pretty much sums it all up.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']You think running over 200 realms in WoW doesn't cost money, and each realm is a server farm of 10 servers or more? And that's just North America.

I understand the position that it's "less evil" to steal from Walmart rather than the mom and pop store next door, but the position that you're being some kind of robin hood is just plain stupid. Stealing is stealing.

In regards to your article: I'm not trying to convince people to pay for things. I just want people that steal things to have the guts to admit they steal things! I steal movies and music all the time! Just because I do it doesn't mean it's not wrong and I'm not stealing, it just means I'm ok with it for whatever reason.[/QUOTE]
does WoW really need $15 from every single member who plays the game though, i doubt it caust evan close to that amount of money to keep their servers up? How much of a profit do they actuly make from their monthly fee?
 
It's important not to forget that Blizzard also shell out thousands on developers, support staff, moderators.. the list goes on.. Blizzard do need money but they are certainly well-off. They aren't going to go bankrupt due to the fact that a few thousand WoW players are on p-servers.
 
[quote name='Lawyers Guns N Money']Basically, you're saying it's ok to violate the EULA or TOS that you agreed to when installing the game (assuming that they have clauses making private servers a violation, of course). Going back on an agreement you made pretty much classifies as immoral in my book.[/QUOTE]
Ya, it doesn't cause harm to anyone so no it's not immoral.
I think EULAs are bullshit if someone buys something thing they should be able to use it anyway they want as long as it doesn't hurt people.

[quote name='Lawyers Guns N Money']How do you make a private server without using Blizzard's code without their permission?[/QUOTE]
A private server is not a work no one is claiming that it is their own original idea or trying to make money of it, if they were then it would be wrong.

[quote name='JasonTerminator']Yes, and then proceeding to play them without paying to play, which is exactly what you agree to do when you buy them.

You get 30 days free when you buy the game, if you want more, you gotta pay for it. Just because I buy a 12 pack of Coke from the store, I'm not entitled to free Coke the next time I want it.

I understand if you don't like that you're stealing and you want to justify it to yourself, but don't try to argue in public that you're not stealing because that's just being silly.[/QUOTE]
That is a retarded analogy. If I buy the game they get money. If I use the game on a private server you are not costing the company anything aka not stealing.
P.S. I don't play mmo's so I'm not justifying anything, but good job being wrong.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Ya, it doesn't cause harm to anyone so no it's not immoral.
I think EULAs are bullshit if someone buys something thing they should be able to use it anyway they want as long as it doesn't hurt people.


A private server is not a work no one is claiming that it is their own original idea or trying to make money of it, if they were then it would be wrong.


That is a retarded analogy. If I buy the game they get money. If I use the game on a private server you are not costing the company anything aka not stealing.
P.S. I don't play mmo's so I'm not justifying anything, but good job being wrong.[/QUOTE]

Just because it doesn't cost the company anything, doesn't mean it's not stealing. You have no right to use WoW in any way that they don't say you can.

If you only pay the down payment on a car, you still have to make your monthly payments.

Just because you don't agree with a EULA doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you if you use their product. If I don't believe in the speed limit, that won't stop me from getting a ticket. The only way you won't violate the speed limit is if you don't drive.

You cannot run a private server without infringing on Blizzard's copyrights. It's impossible.

@Phelmo: Why not steal from EA and other gigantic companies, since you "won't hurt them" by stealing?
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Just because it doesn't cost the company anything, doesn't mean it's not stealing. You have no right to use WoW in any way that they don't say you can.[/QUOTE]

Why? Why is it that the creators of software can tell you how to use a product you bought while any other company making any other product can't?

[quote name='Sporadic']I think a better analogy would be bottled water.

If I buy a bottle of water, I can drink the contents. When the bottle is empty, I could buy another bottle full of water...or I could refill the bottle with my own water. Imagine if the bottled water companies said "No, you can't use the bottle that way. By purchasing and opening our bottled water, you agreed to a one-time use agreement. If you want to drink more than the alloted 20oz of water from our bottle, you'll have to buy more from us".

Everybody would (rightfully) tell them to shove it. I bought the bottle, I can do whatever you want with it. Throw it away, fill it up with more water, shoot bottle rockets out of it. The choice is up to me, not the company who sold me the bottle of water. [/QUOTE]

[quote name='Sporadic']-edit And in case you haven't figured it out yet, I believe that EULAs are complete bullshit. They wouldn't hold up if applied to any other product, so why are they ok/accepted for digital products? If I buy books from the Amazon store for my Kindle but sell it later for a Nook, why shouldn't I be allowed to break the DRM on the books I purchased and formatshift so I can continue to access them? I paid for it, fuck off.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Sporadic']Could you imagine any other company that isn't dealing with digital items trying to put those types of limitations on the products you buy from them? You buy a Samsung TV but there was an agreement when you opened the box that you wouldn't install it in your car. What? Why would they have any say in what you do with the TV after you purchased it? Just because they created it?[/QUOTE]

Also, ironically, I'm in the same boat as itachiitachi. I don't play WoW or MMORPGs.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Why? Why is it that the creators of software can tell you how to use a product you bought while any other company making any other product can't? [/QUOTE]

You can't buy WoW. If Blizzard was selling WoW, you might have an argument, but Blizzard isn't selling WoW.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

"THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. "
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']You can't buy WoW. If Blizzard was selling WoW, you might have an argument, but Blizzard isn't selling WoW.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

"THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. "[/QUOTE]

So, what are they selling on Amazon?
 
Immoral, to play on a private server? (against license agreement yes, but Immoral no ) I would say no, as long as you bought the game and exp packs. (it would be Immoral if you did not buy the games or the server got money) The monthly fee is for maintenance and to access blizzard server, nothing more, in most case you get what you pay for.
 
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If you play on your own private server and you bought the game, then no, since you're not using the developers resources after the game is bought. It's against the EULA, but not immoral(violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.)
if you are making the server avaliable to ppl who didn't buy the game, then it is.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Just because it doesn't cost the company anything, doesn't mean it's not stealing. You have no right to use WoW in any way that they don't say you can.[/QUOTE]
Look up the definition of stealing, you're wrong.
[quote name='JasonTerminator']
If you only pay the down payment on a car, you still have to make your monthly payments.[/QUOTE]
Another retarded analogy, can you figure out why this analogy is also retarded or do you need it explained.
[quote name='JasonTerminator']
Just because you don't agree with a EULA doesn't mean it doesn't apply to you if you use their product. If I don't believe in the speed limit, that won't stop me from getting a ticket. The only way you won't violate the speed limit is if you don't drive.[/QUOTE]
Ya because nobody on the highway speeds, and everyone who speeds get tickets :roll:
This is actually a good analogy though. While both are against the law, neither is immoral.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']A license to play the game.[/QUOTE]

http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Pc/dp/B000067FDW

Control F for 'license'. It isn't there. You are paying for 'World of Warcraft'. The closest thing that comes to saying you are only paying for a license it that it requires a monthly subscription, which isn't really very close at all. And this is why EULAs are bullshit. What if you bought the game and after reading the 500 page EULA decide you have changed your mind? Amazon won't give you a refund for an opened PC game with a CD key and Blizzard sure as hell won't. Not to mention even if you could, you shouldn't have to go through that much hassle in the first place. You bought the software "World of Warcraft" and you didn't agree to shit. You should be able to do what you want with it as long as it isn't directly taking money away from Blizzard.
 
[quote name='DrFoo']http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Pc/dp/B000067FDW

Control F for 'license'. It isn't there. You are paying for 'World of Warcraft'. The closest thing that comes to saying you are only paying for a license it that it requires a monthly subscription, which isn't really very close at all. And this is why EULAs are bullshit. What if you bought the game and after reading the 500 page EULA decide you have changed your mind? Amazon won't give you a refund for an opened PC game with a CD key and Blizzard sure as hell won't. Not to mention even if you could, you shouldn't have to go through that much hassle in the first place. You bought the software "World of Warcraft" and you didn't agree to shit. You should be able to do what you want with it as long as it isn't directly taking money away from Blizzard.[/QUOTE]

Blizzard sure as hell will give you a refund, as detailed in their "bullshit" EULA. It says right on the box that you must agree to the license agreement to use the software. And it says it when you install the software. And it says it when you start the game.

The EULA is a legally binding contract and by using World of Warcraft you agree to it, like it or not.

As for itachiitachi, if the only argument you can come up with is that I'm retarded, we have nothing more to discuss.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing

"1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch. "
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']You can't buy WoW. If Blizzard was selling WoW, you might have an argument, but Blizzard isn't selling WoW.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html

"THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. "[/QUOTE]

That is just a way around the copy right law. Now software companies are selling the right to use the software and not the software itself. That is all this is.

Also I could be wrong but doesn't WOW let you use private servers? The only thing with them that I have ever been told by friends that play is that you can not move a character from a private server to one from Bliz. Also all the ones that I know that play WOW all play on Bliz's server and pay. So it is not like all my friends that have played/still play WOW are trying to get out of paying.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Blizzard sure as hell will give you a refund, as detailed in their "bullshit" EULA. It says right on the box that you must agree to the license agreement to use the software. And it says it when you install the software. And it says it when you start the game.

The EULA is a legally binding contract and by using World of Warcraft you agree to it, like it or not.

As for itachiitachi, if the only argument you can come up with is that I'm retarded, we have nothing more to discuss.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stealing

"1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch. "[/QUOTE]

Whether a EULA is legally binding typically is determined on which state you live in (how liberal the courts view is) and which section of the EULA you are talking about. While court cases have been growing in favor of the software licencing structure, they typically do not believe everything in the EULA is enforcable. Such as software rental or purchase, courts have typically allowed software back-ups despite almost all EULAs preventing them. I'm not a legal expert as most here aren't, but this looks like a grey area surrounding the EULA. I believe if you paid full price (of a game) for the software that the court is more likely to look favorably to you playing on private servers then if you paid less than a month of online play (which is what your getting with purchase) or downloaded it for free.

It's hard to use an analogy of a physical item versus a tangible item as in this example was either purchased or rented. You are clearly not stealing the software (even if you are leasing it) as you paid for the right to have it. The question is whether they can tell you what to do with it once you have it. If they can, you are breaking the contract between the two of you. If you break a contract, you must make the other individual whole (I.E. money they are out of that you would have been paying them). Don't confuse monetary damages with theft. This is a civil offense. The only way this becomes criminal is if you are giving away or selling their code. Running a server may be construed as giving their code away. Again legallity may depend on where you live.
 
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[quote name='itachiitachi']Ya, it doesn't cause harm to anyone so no it's not immoral.
I think EULAs are bullshit if someone buys something thing they should be able to use it anyway they want as long as it doesn't hurt people.[/quote]
So "immoral" in your mind now has to have a component that "hurts people"? Please. Going against any agreement you've made is immoral (barring of course the instance where the original agreement was immoral).


A private server is not a work no one is claiming that it is their own original idea or trying to make money of it, if they were then it would be wrong.
Click to expand...
Now you're backtracking. First you said
I get intellectual property. If somebody takes art/music/code that Blizzard created out of World Of Warcraft and put it into their work without permission, that's wrong.
Click to expand...
And now as long as nobody is claiming it as their own, it's ok? You cannot have a private server without using Blizzard's code without their permission.
 
[quote name='Lawyers Guns N Money']Now you're backtracking. First you said

And now as long as nobody is claiming it as their own, it's ok? You cannot have a private server without using Blizzard's code without their permission.[/QUOTE]

Um, he didn't say that second part. I did. Try to actually use the quote feature.

------

I wonder how you guys feel about mods. Are they wrong? You have to own the original game to play them but it is still modifying the original code and giving you an experience the original makers didn't expect or want you to have.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']
"1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch. "[/QUOTE]

There is no stealing of anything here, unsless "private server" now means use magic powers to play the official blizzard server without paying for it.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Um, he didn't say that second part. I did. Try to actually use the quote feature.

------

I wonder how you guys feel about mods. Are they wrong? You have to own the original game to play them but it is still modifying the original code and giving you an experience the original makers didn't expect or want you to have.[/QUOTE]

MODS are awesome. Since many games come ready to be modded - Like when devs give you the tools for them...I don't see how that question fits here...Did you mean games that DO NOT come with the tools?
 
[quote name='Megazell']MODS are awesome. Since many games come ready to be modded - Like when devs give you the tools for them...I don't see how that question fits here...Did you mean games that DO NOT come with the tools?[/QUOTE]

Sure.
 
Mods are in my opinion the main attraction to PC gaming.

This whole discussion all comes down to peoples personal opinions. You have your own morals, and if you don't see stealing or using something that you paid for to play a private server wrong, then it's perfectly moral to play p.servers. (Yes, I know all this paying for the license crap but I bet if you mail Blizzard asking for a free disk and telling them that you won't pay for it or install it they would laugh in your face)
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Sure.[/QUOTE]

Then I don't see anything immoral about modding a game. Whether it was ready to be modded or not.

[quote name='Phelmo']Mods are in my opinion the main attraction to PC gaming.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I would add that multiplayer is another huge + for PC gaming. The ability to host your own game for your friends/family or for the public is huge even though it's so second nature that many PC gamers overlook it.
 
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[quote name='Megazell']I don't see anything about immoral about modding a game. Whether it was ready to be modded or not.[/QUOTE]

Some might argue that a lot of games say that you are not allowed to edit ANY of the game files, making it illegal and immoral! I personally would argue that that's total BS and you should be able to mod as much as you like as long as it doesn't include giving yourself an advantage.
 
If we're going to look at Mods, let's look at Fallout 3. There was a game designed to be modded, and was done so with the support of Bethesda. Installing the mods was quite easy...usually just putting them in a particular folder, and arranging them so that files dependent on others were loaded later.

So, let's say you get into modding Fallout 3. You start downloading stuff....a weapon pack here, a perk pack there, new clothes over there...nothing immoral yet. One day, you find a mod called "broken steel", and lo and behold, its a carbon copy of the DLC pack of the same name...the one Bethesda released for $10. Is it immoral to download and install it? I'm willing to bet many of you would say "Yes".

Point being - mods themselves aren't immoral, but how some choose to use them can be. In this case, you have people providing content for free that developers charge for. I feel much the same way when it comes to private servers...if someone creates a server using content built by the developers, using skills and quests mined from the developers servers, and talents and skills designed by the developers, it's immoral.
 
[quote name='loltonytony']There is no stealing of anything here, unsless "private server" now means use magic powers to play the official blizzard server without paying for it.[/QUOTE]

Not only can you not use a private server without stealing Blizzard's code, you're also using Blizzard's property in ways you have no rights to do so.

[quote name='smallsharkbigbite']Whether a EULA is legally binding typically is determined on which state you live in (how liberal the courts view is) and which section of the EULA you are talking about. While court cases have been growing in favor of the software licencing structure, they typically do not believe everything in the EULA is enforcable. Such as software rental or purchase, courts have typically allowed software back-ups despite almost all EULAs preventing them. I'm not a legal expert as most here aren't, but this looks like a grey area surrounding the EULA. I believe if you paid full price (of a game) for the software that the court is more likely to look favorably to you playing on private servers then if you paid less than a month of online play (which is what your getting with purchase) or downloaded it for free.

It's hard to use an analogy of a physical item versus a tangible item as in this example was either purchased or rented. You are clearly not stealing the software (even if you are leasing it) as you paid for the right to have it. The question is whether they can tell you what to do with it once you have it. If they can, you are breaking the contract between the two of you. If you break a contract, you must make the other individual whole (I.E. money they are out of that you would have been paying them). Don't confuse monetary damages with theft. This is a civil offense. The only way this becomes criminal is if you are giving away or selling their code. Running a server may be construed as giving their code away. Again legallity may depend on where you live.[/QUOTE]

EULA's are considered an enforcable contract. Below I've linked an excellent article in regards to the WoW EULA specifically in this regard.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/02/08/the-lawbringer-contracts-and-the-achievement-tracker/

And just in case somebody actually reads the article and realizes it goes on to speak of non-ownership of character data on Blizzard's servers and whatnot, I'll post this link.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/08/11/the-lawbringer-a-rookies-guide-to-the-eula/#continued

Which specifically mentions the restriction on private servers.

As for modding, there's nothing wrong with it as long as you aren't using it to get an advantage or in a way that steals from the developers. Most non-MMO PC games, it honestly doesn't matter one way or the other as playing on "non-official servers" in this regard wouldn't be taking money from developers. And some games are just plain better with mods - Bethesda, I'm looking at you.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']If we're going to look at Mods, let's look at Fallout 3. There was a game designed to be modded, and was done so with the support of Bethesda. Installing the mods was quite easy...usually just putting them in a particular folder, and arranging them so that files dependent on others were loaded later.

So, let's say you get into modding Fallout 3. You start downloading stuff....a weapon pack here, a perk pack there, new clothes over there...nothing immoral yet. One day, you find a mod called "broken steel", and lo and behold, its a carbon copy of the DLC pack of the same name...the one Bethesda released for $10. Is it immoral to download and install it? I'm willing to bet many of you would say "Yes".

Point being - mods themselves aren't immoral, but how some choose to use them can be. In this case, you have people providing content for free that developers charge for. I feel much the same way when it comes to private servers...if someone creates a server using content built by the developers, using skills and quests mined from the developers servers, and talents and skills designed by the developers, it's immoral.[/QUOTE]

Not me. I don't see it as immoral. Once you release the tools to the public to make changes/additions to the game it's pretty much out of their hands on what TYPE of content the public makes.

If they make a copy of DLC using their own content...in other words - not ripping it out of the actual DLC...That's fair game.
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']Not only can you not use a private server without stealing Blizzard's code, you're also using Blizzard's property in ways you have no rights to do so.[/QUOTE]

Wrong, private server dont use blizzard's code it only emulates it, server side. (it 100% made not using there code. Thats why most private server suck, compare to the real server)

Wish people know what there talking I mean come on. If you own the game, you are not stealing...if your not using magic pixxy dust to play on blizzard's server for free...you are not stealing.

Why you may ask I will say it again. "The monthly fee is for maintenance and to access blizzard server, nothing more, in most case you get what you pay for", you cant steal what you not using. Is it agents what blizzard says yes, but not stealing....


[quote name='Salamando3000']
So, let's say you get into modding Fallout 3. You start downloading stuff....a weapon pack here, a perk pack there, new clothes over there...nothing immoral yet. One day, you find a mod called "broken steel", and lo and behold, its a carbon copy of the DLC pack of the same name...the one Bethesda released for $10. Is it immoral to download and install it? I'm willing to bet many of you would say "Yes".

Point being - mods themselves aren't immoral, but how some choose to use them can be. In this case, you have people providing content for free that developers charge for. I feel much the same way when it comes to private servers...if someone creates a server using content built by the developers, using skills and quests mined from the developers servers, and talents and skills designed by the developers, it's immoral.[/QUOTE]

That would work if the monthly fee was for quest and updates...but its not. (Im talking about if you own the game and exp packs only. The people who play, not just the guy on server side)
 
We are not only talking about WoW here, I can tell you for a fact that there are private servers of MMO's that are using the official server files. I don't doubt that there are a fair amount of WoW p.servers that use some form of official Blizzard code to run their servers on.
 
If we're getting into issues of "it's okay as long as you own the Game+Exp. Packs", does connecting to a private server become immoral if it uses content from a patch that wasn't included in the exp pack? After all, some of that monthly fee is going toward the development of that content.

I believe it's also worth asking...is hosting a private server immoral? Using WoW as the example, you can't buy a WoW server from Blizzard...and it's very well known that Blizzard doesn't want those servers to exist...so any server put up is in direct contradiction to their desires. As owners of the IP, they have the right to control how that IP is used, and that includes shutting down any project that uses their IP in a way that they don't like. This doesn't just apply to private servers, as we've seen game companies shut down everything from fan remakes of old games and fanmade sequels.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']If we're getting into issues of "it's okay as long as you own the Game+Exp. Packs", does connecting to a private server become immoral if it uses content from a patch that wasn't included in the exp pack? After all, some of that monthly fee is going toward the development of that content.

it's very well known that Blizzard doesn't want those servers to exist...so any server put up is in direct contradiction to their desires[/QUOTE]

No, its clear they dont want people making money off them, they dont shut down free servers. The private server thing is so gray.... (unless...you know what I have said millions of times, then its way wrong)Just to let you guys know I hate private server...I rather pay.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']http://newenthusiast.com/blizzard-hitting-wow-pirates-20081205248

They shut down servers. However, it's not a battle they can win...it's a lot like trying to shut down torrents for games and movies...try as they might, they'll never be able to shut down all of 'em.[/QUOTE]


Not really the same, but they could easly could if they wanted to. (yeah, they can not get all of them.) They could still go after them, not with a slap on the wrist type thing, but to court...but they seem to go only after the ones that make money. Anyway peace out all this WoW talk, makes me want to play it more....dame you all :drool:
 
If i download a game out of the blue from nameless website X and play on a private server I have not made any agreement and thus I cannot have broken one.
 
[quote name='loltonytony']Wish people know what there talking I mean come on. If you own the game, you are not stealing...if your not using magic pixxy dust to play on blizzard's server for free...you are not stealing. [/QUOTE]

But you don't own the game. You own a disc that contains the game, but not the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDY_Indus._LLC_v._Blizzard_Entm't,_Inc.

The above court case has established that the EULA's provision that people that play WoW are licensees and not owners of WoW.

"The Court agreed with Blizzard's arguments that WoW purchasers were not actual owners of their copy of the game but instead licensees of the game."

And as for crystalklear64, it's still stealing no matter where you steal it from.
 
[quote name='crystalklear64']If i download a game out of the blue from nameless website X and play on a private server I have not made any agreement and thus I cannot have broken one.[/QUOTE]

Kind of a good point. If the website that you downloaded it from hasn't installed it or anything but they have the software, then they upload it without any agreements what-so-ever, and there is nothing to agree to when installing the game, then you aren't actually violating any agreement that you have made..
 
[quote name='Phelmo']Kind of a good point. If the website that you downloaded it from hasn't installed it or anything but they have the software, then they upload it without any agreements what-so-ever, and there is nothing to agree to when installing the game, then you aren't actually violating any agreement that you have made..[/QUOTE]

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[quote name='JasonTerminator']But you don't own the game. You own a disc that contains the game, but not the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDY_Indus._LLC_v._Blizzard_Entm't,_Inc.

The above court case has established that the EULA's provision that people that play WoW are licensees and not owners of WoW.

"The Court agreed with Blizzard's arguments that WoW purchasers were not actual owners of their copy of the game but instead licensees of the game."[/QUOTE]

The case is in appeal. EULAs are grey because they are going through the legal system now. We don't know what is going to stick and what is not going to stick. Also, just because you have a licence on the game does not make the entire EULA enforcable. In the example you listed, Blizzard is CLEARLY harmed. When players use bots it makes the programs less valuable to all other players on the blizzard servers. I admit it is a grey area, but we don't know what would happen because generally the court only looks at the specific facts and decides on that case. Unless you have a case of an individual that paid $50 for WoW and has played on private servers and was found at fault for the EULA? Also location of the court matters alot. An east coast court could find fault where a mid-western court may be more consumer right oriented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement

"The 7th Circuit and 8th Circuit subscribe to the "licensed and not sold" argument, while most other circuits do not[citation needed]. "

"No court has ruled on the validity of EULAs generally; decisions are limited to particular provisions and terms."
 
[quote name='smallsharkbigbite']The case is in appeal. EULAs are grey because they are going through the legal system now. We don't know what is going to stick and what is not going to stick. Also, just because you have a licence on the game does not make the entire EULA enforcable. In the example you listed, Blizzard is CLEARLY harmed. When players use bots it makes the programs less valuable to all other players on the blizzard servers. I admit it is a grey area, but we don't know what would happen because generally the court only looks at the specific facts and decides on that case. Unless you have a case of an individual that paid $50 for WoW and has played on private servers and was found at fault for the EULA? Also location of the court matters alot. An east coast court could find fault where a mid-western court may be more consumer right oriented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_license_agreement

"The 7th Circuit and 8th Circuit subscribe to the "licensed and not sold" argument, while most other circuits do not[citation needed]. "

"No court has ruled on the validity of EULAs generally; decisions are limited to particular provisions and terms."[/QUOTE]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/31/t...-v-purchase-sgt-joe-friday-edition/#continued

"But what does all this mean for World of Warcraft? Turns out, not much. All of these cases revolve around the "First Sale Rule" distribution right that the license was denying. AutoDesk was trying to stop Vernor from selling his legitimate copies, an action so unfair the judge wouldn't go along with it; the WoW EULA, however, makes specific provision for users who want to transfer the software and the license. Just as we saw back in our discussion of Bragg v. Linden Lab, Blizzard has crafted its EULA to avoid provisions that are so grossly unfair a judge might sympathize with the contract violator."

And I doubt we will get a case of Blizzard taking on individual pirates of WoW when it's so much easier to go after the private server itself! And there is definite precedent for taking down private servers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd
http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuit.asp?ID=51340 (Blizz was awarded 88 million in this one)
 
[quote name='JasonTerminator']http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/31/t...-v-purchase-sgt-joe-friday-edition/#continued

"But what does all this mean for World of Warcraft? Turns out, not much. All of these cases revolve around the "First Sale Rule" distribution right that the license was denying. AutoDesk was trying to stop Vernor from selling his legitimate copies, an action so unfair the judge wouldn't go along with it; the WoW EULA, however, makes specific provision for users who want to transfer the software and the license. Just as we saw back in our discussion of Bragg v. Linden Lab, Blizzard has crafted its EULA to avoid provisions that are so grossly unfair a judge might sympathize with the contract violator."

And I doubt we will get a case of Blizzard taking on individual pirates of WoW when it's so much easier to go after the private server itself! And there is definite precedent for taking down private servers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnetd
http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuit.asp?ID=51340 (Blizz was awarded 88 million in this one)[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me like Blizzard can make just as much money taking down the private servers as they can from running their own.. Lol.
 
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