Is This Too Much To Charge For Shipping?
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electrictroy
Banned
JUDY: If someone says, "Troy is a greedy, dishonest person," that *is* a personal attack. Attacking the ideas is okay (debate). Attacking people is not. ----- The PROPER way to address the issue is: "You shouldn't charge handling," as you did Judy. Focus on the ideas.... don't attack the person.
Also, you've told me what handling is NOT, but you still haven't told me what handling IS. Please define it for me.[quote name='mykevermin']I know what an ad hominem is; don't be patronizing. I'm using Marxist terminology, and it's up to you to be offended or to remain apathetic towards it.[/quote] Marx's theory was a decent theory. But it had one fatal flaw: It depends upon humans being honest & fair, and that will never happen. There are always a few who will lay around all day, doing nothing, and just sucking off the system like parasites. Or else, rise to leadership and steal from the common property. The foundation of Marx's theory is "humans are angels", and that's simply not true.
DISCLAIMER: "A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item." - Ebay policy. Mailing = $2. Packaging = $1. Handling = $2. TOTAL SHIP & HANDLING = $5.00
I don't think it will make any difference. People have already agreed to pay $5.00 shipping.... it's at the top of the page! And yet people still bid. Why would breaking it down change anything?
troy
Also, you've told me what handling is NOT, but you still haven't told me what handling IS. Please define it for me.[quote name='mykevermin']I know what an ad hominem is; don't be patronizing. I'm using Marxist terminology, and it's up to you to be offended or to remain apathetic towards it.[/quote] Marx's theory was a decent theory. But it had one fatal flaw: It depends upon humans being honest & fair, and that will never happen. There are always a few who will lay around all day, doing nothing, and just sucking off the system like parasites. Or else, rise to leadership and steal from the common property. The foundation of Marx's theory is "humans are angels", and that's simply not true.
Yes, I have. It's obvious. Think about it. As for disclaimers, I have no objections. to adding this to my sales:
DISCLAIMER: "A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item." - Ebay policy. Mailing = $2. Packaging = $1. Handling = $2. TOTAL SHIP & HANDLING = $5.00
I don't think it will make any difference. People have already agreed to pay $5.00 shipping.... it's at the top of the page! And yet people still bid. Why would breaking it down change anything?
troy
electrictroy
Banned
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']And your example of the $.99 + $5.00 shipping where your customers say "Shipping is high, but total price is okay, so whatever," is a perfect example of fee avoidance. You hiked the shipping and kept the item price low. If you had charged $3.00 shipping, the item probably would have gone up $3.00. [/QUOTE]Not true. I already tried to sell BG&E for $3.00 + $3 ship, and it didn't sell. I had 5 copies, and not a single one sold.
Why? Because people aren't going to buy BG&E for $3.00 when other sellers have it for 0.99 or even 0.01.
Also, I'm not trying to avoid fees. Charging $5 is "insurance" to make sure my fees get covered. I'm trying to avoid losing money if, for example, BG&E sells for 1 cent (during the 2nd listing).
troy
Why? Because people aren't going to buy BG&E for $3.00 when other sellers have it for 0.99 or even 0.01.
Also, I'm not trying to avoid fees. Charging $5 is "insurance" to make sure my fees get covered. I'm trying to avoid losing money if, for example, BG&E sells for 1 cent (during the 2nd listing).
troy
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']Also, you've told me what handling is NOT, but you still haven't told me what handling IS. Please define it for me. [/QUOTE]
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']I fail to see how your Paypal fees have anything to do with your packing and taking the item to the post office.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']eBay/Paypal fees still have nothing to do with your physically handling of item.[/QUOTE]
To me, handling means packing the item and taking it somewhere to ship it.
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']I fail to see how your Paypal fees have anything to do with your packing and taking the item to the post office.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']eBay/Paypal fees still have nothing to do with your physically handling of item.[/QUOTE]
To me, handling means packing the item and taking it somewhere to ship it.
electrictroy
Banned
Okay, let's look at what EBAY says: "A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item." Ebay lists three separate items:
(1) mailing
(2) packaging
(3) handling
You Judy already covered (1) and (2). You say these are reasonable things to charge the customer. But what about number (3)? What is #3? What do you consider a "handling fee"? You keep dancing around, but still haven't answered that question.
troy
(1) mailing
(2) packaging
(3) handling
You Judy already covered (1) and (2). You say these are reasonable things to charge the customer. But what about number (3)? What is #3? What do you consider a "handling fee"? You keep dancing around, but still haven't answered that question.
troy
mykevermin
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[quote name='electrictroy']Also, you've told me what handling is NOT, but you still haven't told me what handling IS. Please define it for me. Marx's theory was a decent theory. But it had one fatal flaw: It depends upon humans being honest & fair, and that will never happen. There are always a few who will lay around all day, doing nothing, and just sucking off the system like parasites. Or else, rise to leadership and steal from the common property. The foundation of Marx's theory is "humans are angels", and that's simply not true.[/quote]
I'm talking about his criticisms of capitalism, which, if anything, indicates that people are anything but angels; that's neither here nor there, so I'll drop that.
What is handling? That's a good question, and an ambiguous one at best; at the moment, you are looking at it one way, and I another. I contacted eBay to explicitly ask "can a seller include their listing fees, final price fee, and paypal fees in shipping and handling costs?" We'll find out soon enough; having looked at eBay's help pages, I assume that their official answer is "no." However, they seem to skirt around the issue of the large gray area for excessive shipping (and they also don't define handling). They say that $25 shipping for a DVD is excessive; what about $15? $20? $10? They don't say. I think that they are looking the other way when it comes to sellers deceiving buyers, while their official rarely-enforced company line is to prevent "escessive fees." In other words, they've not done a damn thing about it.
Why don't you list the individual eBay fees too? You know: "Handling=eBay listing fee: 0.30; eBay final item fee: 1.20; Paypal fee:0.50." Your hypothetical quote above provides no indication that you're making the buyer pay for your costs as a seller, and you're still deceiving them.
myke.
I'm talking about his criticisms of capitalism, which, if anything, indicates that people are anything but angels; that's neither here nor there, so I'll drop that.
What is handling? That's a good question, and an ambiguous one at best; at the moment, you are looking at it one way, and I another. I contacted eBay to explicitly ask "can a seller include their listing fees, final price fee, and paypal fees in shipping and handling costs?" We'll find out soon enough; having looked at eBay's help pages, I assume that their official answer is "no." However, they seem to skirt around the issue of the large gray area for excessive shipping (and they also don't define handling). They say that $25 shipping for a DVD is excessive; what about $15? $20? $10? They don't say. I think that they are looking the other way when it comes to sellers deceiving buyers, while their official rarely-enforced company line is to prevent "escessive fees." In other words, they've not done a damn thing about it.
Why don't you list the individual eBay fees too? You know: "Handling=eBay listing fee: 0.30; eBay final item fee: 1.20; Paypal fee:0.50." Your hypothetical quote above provides no indication that you're making the buyer pay for your costs as a seller, and you're still deceiving them.
myke.
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']Okay, let's look at what EBAY says: "A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item." Ebay lists three separate items:
(1) mailing
(2) packaging
(3) handling
You Judy already covered (1) and (2). You say these are reasonable things to charge the customer. But what about number (3)? What is #3? What do you consider a "handling fee"? You keep dancing around, but still haven't answered that question.
troy[/QUOTE]
How does
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']To me, handling means packing the item and taking it somewhere to ship it.[/QUOTE]
not answer your question? I will clarify. I'm talking about the act of actually packing. Your physical labor of putting the item in the box. Also, the transportation of the item to get it shipped. The physical labor of picking up the package and driving it to the post office (which can include gas or whatever). You know, the stuff you do with yours hands, hence the term "handling".
Edited to correct: I mean package, not packaging.
(1) mailing
(2) packaging
(3) handling
You Judy already covered (1) and (2). You say these are reasonable things to charge the customer. But what about number (3)? What is #3? What do you consider a "handling fee"? You keep dancing around, but still haven't answered that question.
troy[/QUOTE]
How does
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']To me, handling means packing the item and taking it somewhere to ship it.[/QUOTE]
not answer your question? I will clarify. I'm talking about the act of actually packing. Your physical labor of putting the item in the box. Also, the transportation of the item to get it shipped. The physical labor of picking up the package and driving it to the post office (which can include gas or whatever). You know, the stuff you do with yours hands, hence the term "handling".
Edited to correct: I mean package, not packaging.
electrictroy
Banned
As an engineer, I get paid $40 an hour, and it usually takes me all morning to package ~20 items... say 4 hours... to pack & drive to the post office. So $160/30 items = ~$5 per item for "handling fee".
Just kidding. ;-)
Even if I hire some minimum wage teen, it still comes out at ~70 cents per item. Plus $2 / 20 items = 10 cents for gasoline = 80 CENTS TOTAL. Is this what you consider a "handling fee"?[quote name='mykevermin']They say that $25 shipping for a DVD is excessive; what about $15? $20? $10? They don't say. I think that they are looking the other way when it comes to sellers deceiving buyers...[/QUOTE]Kinda foolish. Ebay would be losing money, if they choose to ignore the problem. Unless they don't care?
DISCLAIMER: "A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item." - Ebay policy. Mailing = $2. Packaging = $1. Ebay/Paypal Handling Fees = $2. TOTAL SHIP & HANDLING = $5.00
Better? Still won't make any difference. People are already willing to give me (and also amazon) $5.00 for shipping books/games. Breaking it down won't make any difference.
troy
Just kidding. ;-)
Even if I hire some minimum wage teen, it still comes out at ~70 cents per item. Plus $2 / 20 items = 10 cents for gasoline = 80 CENTS TOTAL. Is this what you consider a "handling fee"?[quote name='mykevermin']They say that $25 shipping for a DVD is excessive; what about $15? $20? $10? They don't say. I think that they are looking the other way when it comes to sellers deceiving buyers...[/QUOTE]Kinda foolish. Ebay would be losing money, if they choose to ignore the problem. Unless they don't care?
DISCLAIMER: "A shipping and handling fee can cover the seller's reasonable costs for mailing, packaging and handling the item." - Ebay policy. Mailing = $2. Packaging = $1. Ebay/Paypal Handling Fees = $2. TOTAL SHIP & HANDLING = $5.00
Better? Still won't make any difference. People are already willing to give me (and also amazon) $5.00 for shipping books/games. Breaking it down won't make any difference.
troy
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']Even if I hire some minimum wage teen, it still comes out at ~70 cents per item. Is this what you consider a "handling fee"?[/QUOTE]
If the item requires a minimum wage teen to do it, then maybe. Like hiring people to move a couch... I think that would be considered handling. But rarely does handling require a third party, so if you can do your own packing or whatnot, handling fees are obviously minimal.
Though to be honest, I do charge a handling fee on eBay. Like Trent, I charge $4.00 for priority shipping. The extra .15 cents goes into my soda fund
Edited to add: And you edit your post again. I would not consider 10 cents for gas unreasonable handling charges.
If the item requires a minimum wage teen to do it, then maybe. Like hiring people to move a couch... I think that would be considered handling. But rarely does handling require a third party, so if you can do your own packing or whatnot, handling fees are obviously minimal.
Though to be honest, I do charge a handling fee on eBay. Like Trent, I charge $4.00 for priority shipping. The extra .15 cents goes into my soda fund
Edited to add: And you edit your post again. I would not consider 10 cents for gas unreasonable handling charges.
electrictroy
Banned
Actually, the extra 15 cents goes to ebay & paypal & their fees.
Since the concept of honesty has been brought into this conversation, I want each of you to take, say, 30 minutes to review this website: http://www.paypalsucks.com ..... Which describes how paypal (and ebay - the owner) routinely swipes money out of people's accounts. Or as my mom would say, "stealing".
What is your opinion of this Paypal/ebay practice?
troy
electrictroy
Banned
[quote name='fwacce']lol now he's charging $9.99 + $1.20 required insurance. What's the deal slide? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8198955122[/QUOTE]DID NOT SELL. (no surprise there)
Also, I asked Ebay is they thought $5.00 shipping was excessive. They replied: [quote name='EBAY']Thank you for writing to eBay's Customer Support. I appreciate the chance to answer your question concerning a shipping charge. Selling a DVD with a shipping charge of $25 is excessive. Selling a DVD with a shipping charge of $5.00 is way less than that amount and not excessive.
Bernardo F.
eBay Customer Support [/quote]So please stop telling me that $5.00 is "too much". If you don't want to bid on my auctions, that's fine, but don't come here and tell me I'm violating Ebay policy. Ebay has declared I am not.
troy
Also, I asked Ebay is they thought $5.00 shipping was excessive. They replied: [quote name='EBAY']Thank you for writing to eBay's Customer Support. I appreciate the chance to answer your question concerning a shipping charge. Selling a DVD with a shipping charge of $25 is excessive. Selling a DVD with a shipping charge of $5.00 is way less than that amount and not excessive.
Bernardo F.
eBay Customer Support [/quote]So please stop telling me that $5.00 is "too much". If you don't want to bid on my auctions, that's fine, but don't come here and tell me I'm violating Ebay policy. Ebay has declared I am not.
troy
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']DID NOT SELL. (no surprise there)
Also, I asked Ebay is they thought $5.00 shipping was excessive. They replied: So please stop telling me that $5.00 is "too much". Ebay has declared it is not.
troy[/QUOTE]
Did you ask if eBay and Paypal fees can be covered in shipping & handling? Did you also mention the actual shipping costs? $5 will not get you shutdown by eBay, but it doesn't mean your buyers won't think your shipping is excessive. Also, I don't know why the eBay rep acted like $25 is some sort of official cutoff, when $20 or $15 is also clearly excessive for a DVD.
$5.00 is still a ripoff for media mail, IMHO.
Edited at add: I didn't see the "way" in the email, so I'm mistaken in thinking he acted like it was an official cutoff.
Also, I asked Ebay is they thought $5.00 shipping was excessive. They replied: So please stop telling me that $5.00 is "too much". Ebay has declared it is not.
troy[/QUOTE]
Did you ask if eBay and Paypal fees can be covered in shipping & handling? Did you also mention the actual shipping costs? $5 will not get you shutdown by eBay, but it doesn't mean your buyers won't think your shipping is excessive. Also, I don't know why the eBay rep acted like $25 is some sort of official cutoff, when $20 or $15 is also clearly excessive for a DVD.
$5.00 is still a ripoff for media mail, IMHO.
Edited at add: I didn't see the "way" in the email, so I'm mistaken in thinking he acted like it was an official cutoff.
electrictroy
Banned
Ebay has sided with me. "$5.00 is not excessive" was their ruling. As far as I'm concerned I've 'won' the debate, and Ebay has declared I'm doing nothing wrong. Case closed.
If you think my asking price of $5 ship + 99 cent = $5.99 is too much for a used book or game..... that's cool with me. Just don't bid, and we'll both be happy.
But only *Ebay* can decide whether or not I'm violating their "excessive shipping" policy, and they have ruled I am not.
troy
If you think my asking price of $5 ship + 99 cent = $5.99 is too much for a used book or game..... that's cool with me. Just don't bid, and we'll both be happy.
But only *Ebay* can decide whether or not I'm violating their "excessive shipping" policy, and they have ruled I am not.
troy
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']Ebay has sided with me. "$5.00 is not excessive" was their ruling. As far as I'm concerned I've 'won' the debate, and Ebay has declared I'm doing nothing wrong. Case closed.
troy[/QUOTE]
Nobody said eBay would consider $5.00 excessive for shipping a DVD. So I'm not sure what debate you've "won".
troy[/QUOTE]
Nobody said eBay would consider $5.00 excessive for shipping a DVD. So I'm not sure what debate you've "won".
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']Ebay has sided with me. "$5.00 is not excessive" was their ruling. As far as I'm concerned I've 'won' the debate, and Ebay has declared I'm doing nothing wrong. Case closed.
If you think my asking price of $5 ship + 99 cent = $5.99 is too much for a used book or game..... that's cool with me. Just don't bid, and we'll both be happy.
But only *Ebay* can decide whether or not I'm violating their "excessive shipping" policy, and they have ruled I am not.
troy[/QUOTE]
My point with that example was the idea of fee avoidance. I didn't say that eBay would consider it a violation of their excessive shipping policy.
If you think my asking price of $5 ship + 99 cent = $5.99 is too much for a used book or game..... that's cool with me. Just don't bid, and we'll both be happy.
But only *Ebay* can decide whether or not I'm violating their "excessive shipping" policy, and they have ruled I am not.
troy[/QUOTE]
My point with that example was the idea of fee avoidance. I didn't say that eBay would consider it a violation of their excessive shipping policy.
mykevermin
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[quote name='electrictroy']Actually, the extra 15 cents goes to ebay & paypal & their fees.
Since the concept of honesty has been brought into this conversation, I want each of you to take, say, 30 minutes to review this website: http://www.paypalsucks.com ..... Which describes how paypal (and ebay - the owner) routinely swipes money out of people's accounts. Or as my mom would say, "stealing".
What is your opinion of this Paypal/ebay practice?
troy[/QUOTE]
Speaking of your mother, did you avoid getting in trouble as a child by pointing out that your brother/sister/someone else did the same thing you did? I hope not; so why are you trying it here?
I'm still waiting on my response from eBay; should be in the next few days. I'm curious what the precise wording of your question was.
judyjudyjudy, your responses have saved me a great deal of time this morning. Thanks.
myke.
Since the concept of honesty has been brought into this conversation, I want each of you to take, say, 30 minutes to review this website: http://www.paypalsucks.com ..... Which describes how paypal (and ebay - the owner) routinely swipes money out of people's accounts. Or as my mom would say, "stealing".
What is your opinion of this Paypal/ebay practice?
troy[/QUOTE]
Speaking of your mother, did you avoid getting in trouble as a child by pointing out that your brother/sister/someone else did the same thing you did? I hope not; so why are you trying it here?
I'm still waiting on my response from eBay; should be in the next few days. I'm curious what the precise wording of your question was.
judyjudyjudy, your responses have saved me a great deal of time this morning. Thanks.
myke.
electrictroy
Banned
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']My point with that example was the idea of fee avoidance. I didn't say that eBay would consider it a violation of their excessive shipping policy.[/QUOTE]If Ebay doesn't consider it a violation of their "fee avoidance" policy, then that's all that matters.
Also, you said yourself that I can charge a handling fee. So here it is:
Ship (Postage+Envelope/Box +Foam+Tape) = about $3.00
Handling (Gasoline + Labor) = $2.00
=================
TOTAL = ~$5.00
[quote name='mykevermin']
I'm not. Two wrongs don't make a right. Instead, I asked a simple question: "What is your opinion of this Paypal/ebay practice?" Why are you trying to avoid answering it?
troy
Also, you said yourself that I can charge a handling fee. So here it is:
Ship (Postage+Envelope/Box +Foam+Tape) = about $3.00
Handling (Gasoline + Labor) = $2.00
=================
TOTAL = ~$5.00
[quote name='mykevermin']
Speaking of your mother, did you avoid getting in trouble as a child by pointing out that your brother/sister/someone else did the same thing you did? I hope not; so why are you trying it here?[/QUOTE]
I'm not. Two wrongs don't make a right. Instead, I asked a simple question: "What is your opinion of this Paypal/ebay practice?" Why are you trying to avoid answering it?
troy
judyjudyjudy
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[quote name='electrictroy']Instead, I asked a simple question: "What is your opinion of this Paypal/ebay practice?" Why are you trying to avoid answering it?[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't that be off topic?
Wouldn't that be off topic?
electrictroy
Banned
If I was anal-retentive, sure. But in my opinion, paypal's stealing money from accounts is still related to this discussion: Ebay/paypal & ripping off the customer.
Ship (Postage+Envelope/Box +Foam+Tape) = about $3.00
Handling (Gasoline + Labor) = $2.00
=================
TOTAL = ~$5.00
No response to this?
(1) If you're selling your games at a loss, then yes, you're a bad businessman. Don't take it personally. Take it as a lesson learned - Don't sell games at $1 + $2 ship = $3.00 total, when it costs you $5 in selling expenses. That's negative 2 dollars, and not too wise.
(2) I'm not dishonest. My shipping charge is clearly visible, directly under the auction price. Customers are free to bid or not.
(3) I've had many, many games/books where this scenario occured:
- Did Not Sell = $0.99 starting price + $4 ship
- Relisted & Sold = $0.01 starting price + $5 ship
Customers tend to ignore the ship fee, and look only at the price..... so that an item won't sell at 99 cents, but will sell at 1 cent.
And no, it's not petty when you're a Seller and losing money. But that's exactly what some buyers say we should do - ship games for 0.99 cents & $2 shipping, while handing over $5 to Ebay/paypal/post office fees... thereby losing money.
Sorry Mr. Customer, I'm willing to sell you my game, and I sincerely hope it gives you many hours of joy, but I'm not going to lose ~$2 per sale... and gradually fall into debt.
[quote name='fwacce']Amazon..... EBGames..... GameStop[/QUOTE] Bzzzz. All of these places charge me ~$5.00 to ship a single book or game via media mail (standard shipping - no rebates). If they can do it, why can't I?
I'm on ebay to make money (else I wouldn't bother), and the only way that's going to happen is via making sure that "cost of business" gets paid...... even if I'm selling a game for only 1 penny. When you shop at Wal-Mart or Frye's or another Store, the customer pays *all* business expenses - advertising, labor, credit card fees, taxes..... ALL of that is included in the price + fees charged to the customer.
Nothing comes out of the businessman's pocket, because his pocket is empty. He relies on the customer to pay his bills.
troy
Ship (Postage+Envelope/Box +Foam+Tape) = about $3.00
Handling (Gasoline + Labor) = $2.00
=================
TOTAL = ~$5.00
No response to this?
(1) If you're selling your games at a loss, then yes, you're a bad businessman. Don't take it personally. Take it as a lesson learned - Don't sell games at $1 + $2 ship = $3.00 total, when it costs you $5 in selling expenses. That's negative 2 dollars, and not too wise.
(2) I'm not dishonest. My shipping charge is clearly visible, directly under the auction price. Customers are free to bid or not.
(3) I've had many, many games/books where this scenario occured:
- Did Not Sell = $0.99 starting price + $4 ship
- Relisted & Sold = $0.01 starting price + $5 ship
Customers tend to ignore the ship fee, and look only at the price..... so that an item won't sell at 99 cents, but will sell at 1 cent.
And no, it's not petty when you're a Seller and losing money. But that's exactly what some buyers say we should do - ship games for 0.99 cents & $2 shipping, while handing over $5 to Ebay/paypal/post office fees... thereby losing money.
Sorry Mr. Customer, I'm willing to sell you my game, and I sincerely hope it gives you many hours of joy, but I'm not going to lose ~$2 per sale... and gradually fall into debt.
[quote name='fwacce']Amazon..... EBGames..... GameStop[/QUOTE] Bzzzz. All of these places charge me ~$5.00 to ship a single book or game via media mail (standard shipping - no rebates). If they can do it, why can't I?
I'm on ebay to make money (else I wouldn't bother), and the only way that's going to happen is via making sure that "cost of business" gets paid...... even if I'm selling a game for only 1 penny. When you shop at Wal-Mart or Frye's or another Store, the customer pays *all* business expenses - advertising, labor, credit card fees, taxes..... ALL of that is included in the price + fees charged to the customer.
Nothing comes out of the businessman's pocket, because his pocket is empty. He relies on the customer to pay his bills.
troy
electrictroy
Banned
[quote name='trent82']any time someone is selling a small item like a game, dvd, or cd and charges more than $4 for shipping they won't get my business. [/QUOTE]
What is the maximum amount the rest of you are willing to pay?
troy
What is the maximum amount the rest of you are willing to pay?
troy
mykevermin
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[quote name='electrictroy']If they can do it, why can't I?[/QUOTE]
shrike4242
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As this thread has turned into an electrictroy vs. all other posters thread, and slide quite a bit OT in that respect, I think we're done here.
Feel free to make a new one that's OT to the conversation at hand, if you'd like.
Feel free to make a new one that's OT to the conversation at hand, if you'd like.
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bread's done