http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-clash-20100601,0,7304478.story
I only quoted a short part of the article. Thoughts?
Israel criticized over Gaza flotilla attack
- Thread starter IRHari
- Start date
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-clash-20100601,0,7304478.story
I only quoted a short part of the article. Thoughts?
Lesson: You 
with the Jews, you get hurt.
Political purpose: with the Jews by purposefully putting yourself in a position to get hurt, cry foul, and call Jews racist, murdering, Zionist bastards.
The mission wasn't to help the Palestinians, it was to create a confrontation under the guise of providing aid in order to label Jews as murdering, racist bastards.
with the Jews, you get hurt. Political purpose:
with the Jews by purposefully putting yourself in a position to get hurt, cry foul, and call Jews racist, murdering, Zionist bastards. The mission wasn't to help the Palestinians, it was to create a confrontation under the guise of providing aid in order to label Jews as murdering, racist bastards.
[quote name='dopa345']You violate a nation's sovereignty, you face the consequences.[/QUOTE]
Their sovereignty extends to international waters? To enforce a blockade of territory that no one recognizes as Israel's, that violates the Fourth Geneva Convention?
They organized this flotilla to make a political statement, Israel played into their hands by taking the most extreme action possible short of destroying the ships outright.
Their sovereignty extends to international waters? To enforce a blockade of territory that no one recognizes as Israel's, that violates the Fourth Geneva Convention?
They organized this flotilla to make a political statement, Israel played into their hands by taking the most extreme action possible short of destroying the ships outright.
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speedracer
Banned
[quote name='bmulligan']Lesson: You with the Jews, you get hurt.[/QUOTE]
Politics aside, the Israeli military could not have possiblyed it up any worse short of shooting themselves. Everything about it was amateur. I keep hearing about how elite they are but I haven't seen anything worth writing home about in a helluva long time. They screwed the pooch when they got caught assassinating that guy while using passports of their supposed allies, they still haven't gotten Shalit back (how many years now?), and now this clown act.
And now they've pissed off their only Muslim ally. Yea, real smart. Way to look like punk bitches, Avigdor and Bibi.
My wife used to work for the Israeli government in public relations and she was cussing about this story for a half hour. But hey, she did say the only people that would support it were the mentally unstable American zionists and Yisrael Beiteinu. And right on cue, bmull shows the love.
[quote name='dopa345']You violate a nation's sovereignty, you face the consequences. Especially from a country that is surrounded on all sides by its enemies.[/QUOTE]
At what point did the boat violate Israeli sovereignty? I wasn't aware that coming within 60 miles of a blockade was a national sovereignty violation.
And the fact that we're talking about an Israeli blockade of Gaza as if it is Israeli sovereignty at stake is ridiculous.
with the Jews, you get hurt.[/QUOTE]Politics aside, the Israeli military could not have possibly
ed it up any worse short of shooting themselves. Everything about it was amateur. I keep hearing about how elite they are but I haven't seen anything worth writing home about in a helluva long time. They screwed the pooch when they got caught assassinating that guy while using passports of their supposed allies, they still haven't gotten Shalit back (how many years now?), and now this clown act. And now they've pissed off their only Muslim ally. Yea, real smart. Way to look like punk bitches, Avigdor and Bibi.
My wife used to work for the Israeli government in public relations and she was cussing about this story for a half hour. But hey, she did say the only people that would support it were the mentally unstable American zionists and Yisrael Beiteinu. And right on cue, bmull shows the love.
[quote name='dopa345']You violate a nation's sovereignty, you face the consequences. Especially from a country that is surrounded on all sides by its enemies.[/QUOTE]
At what point did the boat violate Israeli sovereignty? I wasn't aware that coming within 60 miles of a blockade was a national sovereignty violation.
And the fact that we're talking about an Israeli blockade of Gaza as if it is Israeli sovereignty at stake is ridiculous.
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[quote name='dafoomie']Their sovereignty extends to international waters? To enforce a blockade of territory that no one recognizes as Israel's, that violates the Fourth Geneva Convention?
They organized this flotilla to make a political statement, Israel played into their hands by taking the most extreme action possible short of destroying the ships outright.[/QUOTE]
Read between the lines, this is all about dick swinging to these clowns.
And the thing about swinging your dick around is that it will eventually get caught in something.
Turkey called for (and was granted) a NATO meeting, there is a chance it is really caught in the meat grinder this time.
They organized this flotilla to make a political statement, Israel played into their hands by taking the most extreme action possible short of destroying the ships outright.[/QUOTE]
Read between the lines, this is all about dick swinging to these clowns.
And the thing about swinging your dick around is that it will eventually get caught in something.
Turkey called for (and was granted) a NATO meeting, there is a chance it is really caught in the meat grinder this time.
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They're actually the 2nd largest military in NATO. Before anyone asks, they're not going to declare war on Israel, but Turkey has a ton of leverage as a major player in Afghanistan. They might be the most important NATO ally there. If Turkey is serious about this, it'll put Obama in a tough spot, he's shown a willingness to be "tough" on Israel but only to a very limited extent.
[quote name='IRHari']Put yourself in a position to get hurt? That's like saying girls who wear skimpy clothes put themselves in a position to get raped.[/QUOTE]
No, it's like saying girls who wear skimpy clothes, go to an Akon Concert, and wear a " Me" sign on their back, and start grabbing guys dicks don't get to play the innocent victim when someone assaults them.
They purposefully antagonized the Israeli military with the express purpose of creating an international incident and beating some Jews as a bonus. They weren't going there to "aid" anyone, they were there to make a political statement. Yes, the Israelised up the situation by playing into their hands and agenda. But let's not be naive here to think these people were peaceful activists on a rescue mission. The boat was entirely populated by radical Jew haters, hell bent on creating this type of response. And they succeeded.
And you people want to talk about dick swinging? That's exactly this mission's intent - swing your dick at israel and cry foul when they whack it with a stick instead of hand cream. And no one recognizes gaza as Israeli territory? That's a great rationale. What if the international community decides Florida doesn't really belong to the united states anymore and some whack job decides to send a boatload of rocket propelled grenades and some sandwiches to the freedom fighters there?
No, it's like saying girls who wear skimpy clothes, go to an Akon Concert, and wear a "
Me" sign on their back, and start grabbing guys dicks don't get to play the innocent victim when someone assaults them. They purposefully antagonized the Israeli military with the express purpose of creating an international incident and beating some Jews as a bonus. They weren't going there to "aid" anyone, they were there to make a political statement. Yes, the Israelis
ed up the situation by playing into their hands and agenda. But let's not be naive here to think these people were peaceful activists on a rescue mission. The boat was entirely populated by radical Jew haters, hell bent on creating this type of response. And they succeeded. And you people want to talk about dick swinging? That's exactly this mission's intent - swing your dick at israel and cry foul when they whack it with a stick instead of hand cream. And no one recognizes gaza as Israeli territory? That's a great rationale. What if the international community decides Florida doesn't really belong to the united states anymore and some whack job decides to send a boatload of rocket propelled grenades and some sandwiches to the freedom fighters there?
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='bmulligan']They purposefully antagonized the Israeli military with the express purpose of creating an international incident and beating some Jews as a bonus. They weren't going there to "aid" anyone, they were there to make a political statement. Yes, the Israelis ed up the situation by playing into their hands and agenda. But let's not be naive here to think these people were peaceful activists on a rescue mission. The boat was entirely populated by radical Jew haters, hell bent on creating this type of response. And they succeeded.[/quote]
Everything you said was true (cept maybe the Jew hating part, though that's probably not the most unfair characterization ever). But a standing government can't respond the same way you or I would talk about on a message board man. Public relations is a huge part of the Israeli/Palestinian thing and taking a hit this big with your only real Muslim country friend is not going to benefit Israel. That's my beef with it. When Syria antagonizes Israel, Israel can reciprocate. When a bunch of Turks floating on an inner tube do it, you take the high road. Not understanding that is putting unnecessary pressure on Israel, a mistake Israel should NEVER tolerate. They got enough on their plate.
ed up the situation by playing into their hands and agenda. But let's not be naive here to think these people were peaceful activists on a rescue mission. The boat was entirely populated by radical Jew haters, hell bent on creating this type of response. And they succeeded.[/quote]Everything you said was true (cept maybe the Jew hating part, though that's probably not the most unfair characterization ever). But a standing government can't respond the same way you or I would talk about on a message board man. Public relations is a huge part of the Israeli/Palestinian thing and taking a hit this big with your only real Muslim country friend is not going to benefit Israel. That's my beef with it. When Syria antagonizes Israel, Israel can reciprocate. When a bunch of Turks floating on an inner tube do it, you take the high road. Not understanding that is putting unnecessary pressure on Israel, a mistake Israel should NEVER tolerate. They got enough on their plate.
There is no way on this planet that boat had any significant weaponry. It would undermine the whole point of their mission, which was to discredit Israel's blocking of aid.
perdition(troy
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note to self:
when commando's board my boat with automatic rifles, do not attack them or you will be shot.
when commando's board my boat with automatic rifles, do not attack them or you will be shot.
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='perdition(troy']note to self:
when commando's board my boat with automatic rifles, do not attack them or you will be shot.[/QUOTE]
Note to self:
Don't be a part of a mission where I'm rappelling down from a helicopter one by one onto an unsecured boat in international water and there's 50 pissed off people waiting for me. If it comes to that, at least don't get shot with my own gun.
when commando's board my boat with automatic rifles, do not attack them or you will be shot.[/QUOTE]
Note to self:
Don't be a part of a mission where I'm rappelling down from a helicopter one by one onto an unsecured boat in international water and there's 50 pissed off people waiting for me. If it comes to that, at least don't get shot with my own gun.
perdition(troy
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Oh, I don't have to worry about that. I hate helicopters.
speedracer
Banned
This is ing bad for Israel.
Erdogan being pissed off is bad for everyone, America included.
ing bad for Israel.Erdogan is from an Islamist party that's been threatened by the Turkish military for being too Islamic (the Turkish Constitution forbids prominent display of religious overtones by politicians under threat of legal coup by the military). He's also friendly with the West, America and Israel in particular. And Turkey is a NATO member with huge influence on Europe and the Middle East. By any definition, he's the PERFECT person for the West to work with the "Islamic world".
Erdogan being pissed off is bad for everyone, America included.
depascal22
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It's much better to debate whether Gaza is or isn't part of Israel instead of sitting down with the Turks to squash this nonsense. This will go well for the Israelis.
fatherofcaitlyn
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Were there any appreciable weapons on boat?
Was the boat on Israel's turf?
No to both means Israel committed an act of war.
From what little I read, it was an act of war.
Was the boat on Israel's turf?
No to both means Israel committed an act of war.
From what little I read, it was an act of war.
It sure looked like an act of war to me. Boarding a vessel flagged to a different nation in international waters is an act of war. The fact that the commandos met with resistance and were "defending themselves" is immaterial. They executed the initial attack. We didn't even do that to the DPRK vessel suspected of carrying nuclear materials to Iran. We just prevented it from docking anywhere.
Israel's move was incredibleing stupid, and they lost me as a supporter. I'm all for them having the right to defend themselves in the Gaza conflict. I gave them the benefit of the doubt on the settlement building announcement while Biden was visiting. But this is too far.
Israel's move was incredible
ing stupid, and they lost me as a supporter. I'm all for them having the right to defend themselves in the Gaza conflict. I gave them the benefit of the doubt on the settlement building announcement while Biden was visiting. But this is too far.
fatherofcaitlyn
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Turkey to the escalation.
http://www.ianwelsh.net/holy-sweet-...lotilla-to-gaza—escorted-by-the-turkish-navy/
Now, Israel can punk out or hope the US sides with it over NATO.
http://www.ianwelsh.net/holy-sweet-...lotilla-to-gaza—escorted-by-the-turkish-navy/
Now, Israel can punk out or hope the US sides with it over NATO.
[quote name='dafoomie']
They organized this flotilla to make a political statement, Israel played into their hands by taking the most extreme action possible short of destroying the ships outright.[/QUOTE]
this.
israel is in some hot shit though, they gotta play their cards perfectly for the foreseeable future.
They organized this flotilla to make a political statement, Israel played into their hands by taking the most extreme action possible short of destroying the ships outright.[/QUOTE]
this.
israel is in some hot shit though, they gotta play their cards perfectly for the foreseeable future.
speedracer
Banned
And now Egypt is now opening the border with Gaza for a few days, which without question strengthens Hamas.
You're doing a heckuva job, Bibi.
You're doing a heckuva job, Bibi.
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Were there any appreciable weapons on boat?
Was the boat on Israel's turf?
No to both means Israel committed an act of war.
From what little I read, it was an act of war.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but just because there may not have been weapons transported doesn't mean there couldn't have been. The fact of the matter is that the Israelis couldn't have confirmed either way until the vessel had been boarded and inspected. Willfully ignoring commands to turn away from their Gaza heading is a threatening act in and of itself. It's like a police officer telling you not to reach into your coat while he has you at gunpoint and you do it anyway. These boat people were willfully committing an act of aggression against Israel by trying to break the blockade and suffered the consequences of that act.
Perhaps they should have just let them sail to port and destroyed the vessel? What if it had been carrying a nuclear device? What if it had been carrying monetary aid to purchase weapons to kill Israelis? Well, that would be okay, I guess.
I understand all the emotional motivations of all you Occupying-Jew haters wanting to defend freedom fighters and their purposeful subjugation of their own people, but let's start asking why there's a blockade of the strip to begin with. Any guesses? Or are those dirty Jews just out to kill innocent, starving, arab women and children for no reason at all? I guess thoseing, mindless, "Wild Dogs" just want to kill Arabs, so they should be exterminated first. Praise Allah.
Was the boat on Israel's turf?
No to both means Israel committed an act of war.
From what little I read, it was an act of war.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but just because there may not have been weapons transported doesn't mean there couldn't have been. The fact of the matter is that the Israelis couldn't have confirmed either way until the vessel had been boarded and inspected. Willfully ignoring commands to turn away from their Gaza heading is a threatening act in and of itself. It's like a police officer telling you not to reach into your coat while he has you at gunpoint and you do it anyway. These boat people were willfully committing an act of aggression against Israel by trying to break the blockade and suffered the consequences of that act.
Perhaps they should have just let them sail to port and destroyed the vessel? What if it had been carrying a nuclear device? What if it had been carrying monetary aid to purchase weapons to kill Israelis? Well, that would be okay, I guess.
I understand all the emotional motivations of all you Occupying-Jew haters wanting to defend freedom fighters and their purposeful subjugation of their own people, but let's start asking why there's a blockade of the strip to begin with. Any guesses? Or are those dirty Jews just out to kill innocent, starving, arab women and children for no reason at all? I guess those
ing, mindless, "Wild Dogs" just want to kill Arabs, so they should be exterminated first. Praise Allah.
These last 3-4 years have really been interesting for Israel. They've just about lost the "PR War" in each of their conflicts over this time. I don't think it's that the world is becoming more sympathetic for the Palestinians, I think it's that the US being the lone objector in security council declarations is holding less and less water to the world. Much of the world thinks the US is fighting unnecessary wars, and whether it's anti-semitism, or rightful disproval and distrust of Israelis foreign/military policy, much of the world is looking at Israel as the aggressor.
The Southern Lebanon attack was the first time I remember seeing major western news outlets accusing Israel of going too far, killing too many civilians, and approaching "rogue nation" status. These type of stories do not improve their image, which may only be better than the United States'.
For great background on the region (by the way, those who are calling Turkey "Israeli's only muslim ally" are forgetting about Jordan. They're on very good terms with Jordan too, and share a border-which also dispels the "Israel is surrounded by countries who hate them" theory), check out Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall...hell, pretty much anything by Avi Shlaim, an Israeli historian. Fascinating read.
The Southern Lebanon attack was the first time I remember seeing major western news outlets accusing Israel of going too far, killing too many civilians, and approaching "rogue nation" status. These type of stories do not improve their image, which may only be better than the United States'.
For great background on the region (by the way, those who are calling Turkey "Israeli's only muslim ally" are forgetting about Jordan. They're on very good terms with Jordan too, and share a border-which also dispels the "Israel is surrounded by countries who hate them" theory), check out Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall...hell, pretty much anything by Avi Shlaim, an Israeli historian. Fascinating read.
[quote name='bmulligan']Sorry, but just because there may not have been weapons transported doesn't mean there couldn't have been. The fact of the matter is that the Israelis couldn't have confirmed either way until the vessel had been boarded and inspected. Willfully ignoring commands to turn away from their Gaza heading is a threatening act in and of itself. It's like a police officer telling you not to reach into your coat while he has you at gunpoint and you do it anyway. These boat people were willfully committing an act of aggression against Israel by trying to break the blockade and suffered the consequences of that act.
Perhaps they should have just let them sail to port and destroyed the vessel? What if it had been carrying a nuclear device? What if it had been carrying monetary aid to purchase weapons to kill Israelis? Well, that would be okay, I guess.
[/QUOTE]
Ignoring your stupid "if you are anti Isreal, you are anti Jew" strawman you tried to put up at the end, this was a humanitarian flotilla with people/ships from multiple countries. Trying to say they could have been armed with nuclear weapons or anti-Israeli aid ising retarded. You can't attack a boat, that isn't in your waters, on the idea of "what if". A cop can't shoot me to death if I reach into my coat to get my wallet while I'm at the store because he feels threatened or thinks I'm going to do something besides get my wallet out to pay.
Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.
Perhaps they should have just let them sail to port and destroyed the vessel? What if it had been carrying a nuclear device? What if it had been carrying monetary aid to purchase weapons to kill Israelis? Well, that would be okay, I guess.
[/QUOTE]
Ignoring your stupid "if you are anti Isreal, you are anti Jew" strawman you tried to put up at the end, this was a humanitarian flotilla with people/ships from multiple countries. Trying to say they could have been armed with nuclear weapons or anti-Israeli aid is
ing retarded. You can't attack a boat, that isn't in your waters, on the idea of "what if". A cop can't shoot me to death if I reach into my coat to get my wallet while I'm at the store because he feels threatened or thinks I'm going to do something besides get my wallet out to pay.Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Sporadic']Ignoring your stupid "if you are anti Isreal, you are anti Jew" strawman you tried to put up at the end, this was a humanitarian flotilla with people/ships from multiple countries. Trying to say they could have been armed with nuclear weapons or anti-Israeli aid is ing retarded. You can't attack a boat, that isn't in your waters, on the idea of "what if". A cop can't shoot me to death if I reach into my coat to get my wallet while I'm at the store because he feels threatened or thinks I'm going to do something besides get my wallet out to pay.
Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.[/QUOTE]
Seconded.
ing retarded. You can't attack a boat, that isn't in your waters, on the idea of "what if". A cop can't shoot me to death if I reach into my coat to get my wallet while I'm at the store because he feels threatened or thinks I'm going to do something besides get my wallet out to pay.Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.[/QUOTE]
Seconded.
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='berzirk']For great background on the region (by the way, those who are calling Turkey "Israeli's only muslim ally" are forgetting about Jordan. They're on very good terms with Jordan too, and share a border-which also dispels the "Israel is surrounded by countries who hate them" theory), check out Avi Shlaim's The Iron Wall...hell, pretty much anything by Avi Shlaim, an Israeli historian. Fascinating read.[/QUOTE]
The Jordanians aren't in a big hurry to advertise that fact to its people. That's what makes the Turkey alliance so much more appealing. The Turks have the political capital with their people to actually stand up and say it.
Also, they're a democracy. If Jordan held elections today, you sure as hell wouldn't end up with an Israeli-friendly regime.
The Jordanians aren't in a big hurry to advertise that fact to its people. That's what makes the Turkey alliance so much more appealing. The Turks have the political capital with their people to actually stand up and say it.
Also, they're a democracy. If Jordan held elections today, you sure as hell wouldn't end up with an Israeli-friendly regime.
joeboosauce
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Were there any appreciable weapons on boat?
Was the boat on Israel's turf?
No to both means Israel committed an act of war.
From what little I read, it was an act of war.[/QUOTE]
I agree. The only "weapon" according to Israel is CEMENT. Yes, cement that could be used to build bunkers! You know those bunkers that suicide bombers use in attacks!!
Stop the hypocrisy about Israel by David Frum
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/06/01/frum.gaza.flotilla.israel/index.html?hpt=T1
I laughed my ass off reading this. How desperate for an excuse are they? I believe, and this is only a theory, that you could use cement for rebuilding houses. You know houses that are ILLEGALLY bulldozed by Israel in ILLEGAL land grabs.
I’m hardly surprised by this brash and brazen behavior on the part of Israel. The activists were trying to do the right thing in standing up to this inhumane and ILLEGAL blockade of Gaza while no one does anything. Everyone knew about this flotilla as it was widely publicized. It’s obvious Israel planned to handle this in this manner and they played into the political trap here due to nothing but their own belief that laws apply to all others but not themselves. Israel has been a premier rogue state and looks like IT has run its own luck out. With Netanyahu at the wheels, who just wants to be tough guy and does not believe in negotiations with ANYONE including the US, Israel is witnessing its own downfall. Really shame on Israel for making its own situation worse.
Was the boat on Israel's turf?
No to both means Israel committed an act of war.
From what little I read, it was an act of war.[/QUOTE]
I agree. The only "weapon" according to Israel is CEMENT. Yes, cement that could be used to build bunkers! You know those bunkers that suicide bombers use in attacks!!
Stop the hypocrisy about Israel by David Frum
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/06/01/frum.gaza.flotilla.israel/index.html?hpt=T1
“On Monday, Israeli ships stopped a flotilla carrying materials that could be used for war, including cement that Israel maintained could be used to build bunkers, to Hamas-ruled Gaza.”
I laughed my ass off reading this. How desperate for an excuse are they? I believe, and this is only a theory, that you could use cement for rebuilding houses. You know houses that are ILLEGALLY bulldozed by Israel in ILLEGAL land grabs.
I’m hardly surprised by this brash and brazen behavior on the part of Israel. The activists were trying to do the right thing in standing up to this inhumane and ILLEGAL blockade of Gaza while no one does anything. Everyone knew about this flotilla as it was widely publicized. It’s obvious Israel planned to handle this in this manner and they played into the political trap here due to nothing but their own belief that laws apply to all others but not themselves. Israel has been a premier rogue state and looks like IT has run its own luck out. With Netanyahu at the wheels, who just wants to be tough guy and does not believe in negotiations with ANYONE including the US, Israel is witnessing its own downfall. Really shame on Israel for making its own situation worse.
[quote name='speedracer']The Jordanians aren't in a big hurry to advertise that fact to its people. That's what makes the Turkey alliance so much more appealing. The Turks have the political capital with their people to actually stand up and say it.
Also, they're a democracy. If Jordan held elections today, you sure as hell wouldn't end up with an Israeli-friendly regime.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with either part of that (with regards to Jordan, I agree with the importance of Turkey). I actually know, rather well, their former irrigation minister. He was one of the people involved in the original peace talks. My interpretation of a lot of it, was that Jordan was quick to get into peace talks to curry favor with the US, and to be off the hook as far as the "Palestinian problem" was concerned.
I really don't know what the outcome of a Jordanian election would be. But in all honesty, this, "we must support democracy" line is such horsesh**. Our foreign policy makers cares much more about supporting democracy, when we know what the outcome will be ahead of time. They'll support a feudal/dictatorial system if they think it best benefits the US.
Historically, Jordanians are actually far closer to Iraq, than any of their other Arab neighbors.
Also, they're a democracy. If Jordan held elections today, you sure as hell wouldn't end up with an Israeli-friendly regime.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I necessarily agree with either part of that (with regards to Jordan, I agree with the importance of Turkey). I actually know, rather well, their former irrigation minister. He was one of the people involved in the original peace talks. My interpretation of a lot of it, was that Jordan was quick to get into peace talks to curry favor with the US, and to be off the hook as far as the "Palestinian problem" was concerned.
I really don't know what the outcome of a Jordanian election would be. But in all honesty, this, "we must support democracy" line is such horsesh**. Our foreign policy makers cares much more about supporting democracy, when we know what the outcome will be ahead of time. They'll support a feudal/dictatorial system if they think it best benefits the US.
Historically, Jordanians are actually far closer to Iraq, than any of their other Arab neighbors.
cindersphere
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[quote name='Strell']If you deep fry flotillas and sprinkle them with cinnamon and sugar, you have yourself a right fine dessert.[/QUOTE]
Elephant ears are mad delicious.
Elephant ears are mad delicious.
[quote name='Sporadic']Ignoring your stupid "if you are anti Isreal, you are anti Jew" strawman you tried to put up at the end, this was a humanitarian flotilla with people/ships from multiple countries. Trying to say they could have been armed with nuclear weapons or anti-Israeli aid is ing retarded. You can't attack a boat, that isn't in your waters, on the idea of "what if". A cop can't shoot me to death if I reach into my coat to get my wallet while I'm at the store because he feels threatened or thinks I'm going to do something besides get my wallet out to pay.
Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.[/QUOTE]
I'm with Sporadic on this.
ing retarded. You can't attack a boat, that isn't in your waters, on the idea of "what if". A cop can't shoot me to death if I reach into my coat to get my wallet while I'm at the store because he feels threatened or thinks I'm going to do something besides get my wallet out to pay.Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.[/QUOTE]
I'm with Sporadic on this.
[quote name='Sporadic']
Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. There is no rational way to defend Israel's actions unless the people on the flotilla had guns and opened fire on the helicopters first. And even if the people on the flotilla meant this as a "psychological" attack, that's very different than Israel physically attacking them in international waters and hijacking their ships. If that's the case then Israel sprung the trap, but in the worst possible way where the fault lies entirely on Israel. As Sporadic said, they needed to wait for them to actually enter their waters, and anyway, they could have handled it better regardless. There is no excuse for this: Israeled up big time.
Yes, you wait for them to get into your waters and than you can do something like stop/search/detain the vessel/people. You don't start firing from helicopters before you get on board and you don't plant weapons after the fact.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. There is no rational way to defend Israel's actions unless the people on the flotilla had guns and opened fire on the helicopters first. And even if the people on the flotilla meant this as a "psychological" attack, that's very different than Israel physically attacking them in international waters and hijacking their ships. If that's the case then Israel sprung the trap, but in the worst possible way where the fault lies entirely on Israel. As Sporadic said, they needed to wait for them to actually enter their waters, and anyway, they could have handled it better regardless. There is no excuse for this: Israel
ed up big time.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Turkey to the escalation.
http://www.ianwelsh.net/holy-sweet-lord-turkey-has-announced-they-will-send-another-flotilla-to-gaza%e2%80%94escorted-by-the-turkish-navy/
Now, Israel can punk out or hope the US sides with it over NATO.[/QUOTE]
There is a 0% chance we side with anyone but Israel on this. Everyone, from the Obama administration to Fox to Ariana Huffington to MSNBC, is pro-Israel.
Israel's foreign policy is hilarious: "I punched them in the face, and they hurt my hand". Kind of familiar, actually...
http://www.ianwelsh.net/holy-sweet-lord-turkey-has-announced-they-will-send-another-flotilla-to-gaza%e2%80%94escorted-by-the-turkish-navy/
Now, Israel can punk out or hope the US sides with it over NATO.[/QUOTE]
There is a 0% chance we side with anyone but Israel on this. Everyone, from the Obama administration to Fox to Ariana Huffington to MSNBC, is pro-Israel.
Israel's foreign policy is hilarious: "I punched them in the face, and they hurt my hand". Kind of familiar, actually...
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Msut77']Come on man, there is at least a 3% chance we won't side with Israel.
But Turkey is strategically important this was the case before there was a Turkey or Turks.[/QUOTE]
Is the US willing and capable of a third war?
Does anybody here decide to fold?
But Turkey is strategically important this was the case before there was a Turkey or Turks.[/QUOTE]
Is the US willing and capable of a third war?
Does anybody here decide to fold?
It won't necessarily come to war and as bad as it is now, war probably isn't even likely.
In the end I am guessing Turkey will back down with Israel making an insignificant gesture to mollify them.
YMMV, there are Israeli op-eds out there taking a harder line on what a cock up it was then any American papers.
In the end I am guessing Turkey will back down with Israel making an insignificant gesture to mollify them.
YMMV, there are Israeli op-eds out there taking a harder line on what a cock up it was then any American papers.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='Msut77']It won't necessarily come to war and as bad as it is now, war probably isn't even likely.
In the end I am guessing Turkey will back down with Israel making an insignificant gesture to mollify them.
YMMV, there are Israeli op-eds out there taking a harder line on what a cock up it was then any American papers.[/QUOTE]
The ball is in Israel's court.
Turkey will escort aid ships.
If Israel attacks the ships, you have a war involving NATO.
If Turkey gets through, Israel might see several humanitarian ships with military escorts from several countries headed for Gaza not to help refugees but to show up Israel.
I would hate to be an American politician if this blows up this summer.
In the end I am guessing Turkey will back down with Israel making an insignificant gesture to mollify them.
YMMV, there are Israeli op-eds out there taking a harder line on what a cock up it was then any American papers.[/QUOTE]
The ball is in Israel's court.
Turkey will escort aid ships.
If Israel attacks the ships, you have a war involving NATO.
If Turkey gets through, Israel might see several humanitarian ships with military escorts from several countries headed for Gaza not to help refugees but to show up Israel.
I would hate to be an American politician if this blows up this summer.
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='berzirk']He was one of the people involved in the original peace talks. My interpretation of a lot of it, was that Jordan was quick to get into peace talks to curry favor with the US, and to be off the hook as far as the "Palestinian problem" was concerned.[/quote]
Totally. But that kinda points to a "we want our problems resolved", not "we [heart] j00s and want them to be happy".
Also, Egypt has been pretty damn accommodating as a next door neighbor too.
Totally. But that kinda points to a "we want our problems resolved", not "we [heart] j00s and want them to be happy".
Also, Egypt has been pretty damn accommodating as a next door neighbor too.
I agree 100%.
joeboosauce
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Don't know if anyone here watches Democracy Now? Its definitely better coverage than all the hapless coverage the mainstream media puts out on this. Al Jazeera has had far more thorough coverage as usual. http://english.aljazeera.net/
Global Condemnation of Israeli Armed Attack on Gaza-Bound Freedom Flotilla: At Least (This is yesterday's broadcast. Watch todays which has Helen Thomas grilling Robert Gibbs. I wonder how embarrassed the rest of the "press" corp that they have no spine to ask what she asks.)
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/1/global_condemnation_of_israeli_armed_attack
'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8
Global Condemnation of Israeli Armed Attack on Gaza-Bound Freedom Flotilla: At Least (This is yesterday's broadcast. Watch todays which has Helen Thomas grilling Robert Gibbs. I wonder how embarrassed the rest of the "press" corp that they have no spine to ask what she asks.)
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/1/global_condemnation_of_israeli_armed_attack
'Israel is a Lunatic State' - Finkelstein on Gaza Flotilla Attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8
perdition(troy
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depascal22
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I'm with Sporadic on this one. You can be against the immoral treatment of Palestinians and be pro-Jew at the same time. I think most of us would just like the two sides to finally sit down and hammer something out. There has to be something more productive than the constant state of war and terror.
My (former) Representative said it very well today.
http://bostonherald.com/news/politics/view/20100602barney_frank_calls_for_probe_of_gaza_raid/
soulvengeance
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[quote name='bmulligan']Sorry, but just because there may not have been weapons transported doesn't mean there couldn't have been. The fact of the matter is that the Israelis couldn't have confirmed either way until the vessel had been boarded and inspected. Willfully ignoring commands to turn away from their Gaza heading is a threatening act in and of itself. It's like a police officer telling you not to reach into your coat while he has you at gunpoint and you do it anyway. These boat people were willfully committing an act of aggression against Israel by trying to break the blockade and suffered the consequences of that act.
Perhaps they should have just let them sail to port and destroyed the vessel? What if it had been carrying a nuclear device? What if it had been carrying monetary aid to purchase weapons to kill Israelis? Well, that would be okay, I guess.
I understand all the emotional motivations of all you Occupying-Jew haters wanting to defend freedom fighters and their purposeful subjugation of their own people, but let's start asking why there's a blockade of the strip to begin with. Any guesses? Or are those dirty Jews just out to kill innocent, starving, arab women and children for no reason at all? I guess thoseing, mindless, "Wild Dogs" just want to kill Arabs, so they should be exterminated first. Praise Allah.[/QUOTE]
Wow, I think you watch too much 24.
Perhaps they should have just let them sail to port and destroyed the vessel? What if it had been carrying a nuclear device? What if it had been carrying monetary aid to purchase weapons to kill Israelis? Well, that would be okay, I guess.
I understand all the emotional motivations of all you Occupying-Jew haters wanting to defend freedom fighters and their purposeful subjugation of their own people, but let's start asking why there's a blockade of the strip to begin with. Any guesses? Or are those dirty Jews just out to kill innocent, starving, arab women and children for no reason at all? I guess those
ing, mindless, "Wild Dogs" just want to kill Arabs, so they should be exterminated first. Praise Allah.[/QUOTE]Wow, I think you watch too much 24.
joeboosauce
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[quote name='bmulligan']
...but let's start asking why there's a blockade of the strip to begin with. Any guesses? Or are those dirty Jews just out to kill innocent, starving, arab women and children for no reason at all? I guess thoseing, mindless, "Wild Dogs" just want to kill Arabs, so they should be exterminated first. Praise Allah.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm... actually you go straight to the Israeli gov't and discern why from what they are saying. As Finkelstein mentions in the above post that govt has said regarding its massacre in Gaza in Dec 2008-Jan 09 , "it was done to show the Arab world that it was capable of acting like a lunatic state and like mad dogs." So maybe not "Wild Dogs" but "mad dogs" according to Israel. And a "lunatic state."
And its great when Finkelstein says that "we have to ask the question is Israel ACTING like a lunatic state or has it become a lunatic state."
And I second you need to stop referring to 24 for background on this issue. Try reading something. Try Finkelstein's site. In particular, the Goldstone report written by a self-avowed Zionist.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
...but let's start asking why there's a blockade of the strip to begin with. Any guesses? Or are those dirty Jews just out to kill innocent, starving, arab women and children for no reason at all? I guess those
ing, mindless, "Wild Dogs" just want to kill Arabs, so they should be exterminated first. Praise Allah.[/QUOTE]Hmmm... actually you go straight to the Israeli gov't and discern why from what they are saying. As Finkelstein mentions in the above post that govt has said regarding its massacre in Gaza in Dec 2008-Jan 09 , "it was done to show the Arab world that it was capable of acting like a lunatic state and like mad dogs." So maybe not "Wild Dogs" but "mad dogs" according to Israel. And a "lunatic state."
And its great when Finkelstein says that "we have to ask the question is Israel ACTING like a lunatic state or has it become a lunatic state."
And I second you need to stop referring to 24 for background on this issue. Try reading something. Try Finkelstein's site. In particular, the Goldstone report written by a self-avowed Zionist.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
[quote name='joeboosauce']Hmmm... actually you go straight to the Israeli gov't and discern why from what they are saying. As Finkelstein mentions in the above post that govt has said regarding its massacre in Gaza in Dec 2008-Jan 09 , "it was done to show the Arab world that it was capable of acting like a lunatic state and like mad dogs." So maybe not "Wild Dogs" but "mad dogs" according to Israel. And a "lunatic state."
And its great when Finkelstein says that "we have to ask the question is Israel ACTING like a lunatic state or has it become a lunatic state."
And I second you need to stop referring to 24 for background on this issue. Try reading something. Try Finkelstein's site. In particular, the Goldstone report written by a self-avowed Zionist.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/[/QUOTE]
Or as I suggested, anything by Avi Shlaim, Israeli historian: http://www.amazon.com/Avi-Shlaim/e/B001IOBJDE/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1275582003&sr=1-2-ent
And its great when Finkelstein says that "we have to ask the question is Israel ACTING like a lunatic state or has it become a lunatic state."
And I second you need to stop referring to 24 for background on this issue. Try reading something. Try Finkelstein's site. In particular, the Goldstone report written by a self-avowed Zionist.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/[/QUOTE]
Or as I suggested, anything by Avi Shlaim, Israeli historian: http://www.amazon.com/Avi-Shlaim/e/B001IOBJDE/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1275582003&sr=1-2-ent
bread's done