Israel criticized over Gaza flotilla attack

[quote name='Knoell']Do you understand that it wasnt my source? he cited it as proof of his prediction, and in all reality it isnt. Then certain people went on to bash me without even looking at it.[/QUOTE]

__________________

read here.
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']__________________

read here.
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Hmmm I cant see a retraction, maybe you can find one, but thats doubtful because I asked if you guys could and you didnt respond.

Originally Posted by Sporadic
Because they are fighting a PR battle now. It is much easier for them to call the people on the flotilla "murderous mercenaries" "terrorists" "ex-military", release false facts and false audio while media attention is at it's highest while slowly issuing retractions in the weeks/months to come when nobody is paying attention and the media is barely reporting.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100712/.../gaza_blockade
Who called that shit
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[quote name='Knoell']Hmmm I cant see a retraction, maybe you can find one, but thats doubtful because I asked if you guys could and you didnt respond.[/QUOTE]

You didn't catch that. I'm amused yet not surprised.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']You didn't catch that. I'm amused yet not surprised.[/QUOTE]

I caught it, it doesnt make sense. They werent apologizing in the slightest, so reading between the lines says... what?
 
This isn't exactly related to the topic, but I thought that some people might like to read it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100808/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_nuclear_whistleblower

The guy certainly broke the law, and I can understand the Israeli government wanting him back to put him on trial, but this is the part that caught my eye:
Vanunu was abducted by Israeli security agents weeks after the publication of the article and brought to Israel for trial. He was sentenced to 18 years in prison, serving much of the term in solitary confinement.
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Abducted, as in Kidnapped? Rather than trying to have him extradited, they basically just grabbed him and brought him back to Israel? Isn't there some sort of recognized protocol for dealing with this sort of thing?
 
What I don't get about the whole mess (beyond it taking decades to settle anything arguably because of US support for Israel) is how Israel can claim Gaza is and isn't theirs. If it's theirs, they're responsible for the well-being of the civilian population largely composed of women and children. If it isn't, they can't very well claim they were defending themselves in the piracy case and then you have the matter of how the Palestinians don't have their own port to begin with... It's very impressive what the Israelis have managed to accomplish in terms of Zionist ambitions but it sounds as if demographics will change in 50 years or so such that the powers that be should strike a deal while they're still the powers that be. p.s. - As for the flotilla, why weren't these commandos packing riot gear? Was there ever a clear refutation of some reports of lethal suppressive fire prior to the boarding?
 
UN report is in, I'm sure it will say that Isreal was completely justified in their acti....

A UN-appointed panel said today that Israeli forces violated international law, "including international humanitarian and human rights law", during and after their lethal attack on a flotilla of ships attempting to break the blockade of Gaza in May.

The UN Human Rights Council's fact-finding mission judged Israel's naval blockade of the Palestinian territory to be "unlawful" because there was a humanitarian crisis in Gaza at the time.

The panel's report, published today, described Israel's military response to the flotilla as "disproportionate" and said it "betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality".

Eight Turkish activists and one Turkish-American were killed in the raid, which prompted international criticism of both the attack and Israel's policy of blockading the Gaza Strip. Israel has since eased its embargo, although still refuses to allow full imports and exports and the free movement of people.

Israel says the soldiers acted in self-defence. But the mission criticised the Israeli government for failing to co-operate with its inquiry. "Regrettably to date, no information has been given to the mission by or on behalf of the government of Israel," it said.

The panel was led by Karl Hudson-Phillips, a retired judge of the international criminal court and former attorney general of Trinidad and Tobago.

The report said: "The conduct of the Israeli military and other personnel towards the flotilla passengers was not only disproportionate to the occasion but demonstrated levels of totally unnecessary and incredible violence. It betrayed an unacceptable level of brutality. Such conduct cannot be justified or condoned on security or any other grounds. It constituted grave violations of human rights law and international humanitarian law."

The panel concluded that there was "clear evidence" of wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment and wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health – all crimes under the Geneva Convention.

The panel expressed the hope that there would be "swift action" by the Israeli government to help victims achieve effective remedies. "The mission sincerely hopes that no impediment will be put in the way of those who suffered loss as a result of the unlawful actions of the Israeli military to be compensated adequately and promptly," it said. It described the blockade of Gaza as "totally intolerable and unacceptable in the 21st century".

The Israeli government has fiercely resisted demands for an independent international inquiry into the flotilla attacks, establishing three internal investigations to avert pressure from the UN, Europe and Turkey.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/22/gaza-flotilla-un-condemns-israeli-brutality

whoops :whistle2:#

- edit You can read the full report here. http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/15session/A.HRC.15.21_en.pdf
 
No but you don't need to listen to the UN if you think they're all just a bunch of antisemitic bloodthirsty jew haters. Glenn Greenwald thinks the blockade is illegal too but he's just one of them self-hating jews.
 
As suggested, I moved this over from another thread I created...

Not covered by the mainstream news. We all know why. I guess there is one nation that may execute US citizens with impunity. Don't forget Rachel Corrie either.

UN Report: Israel Executed Flotilla Activists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-A1PYgzMv0&feature=sub


UN Fact-Finding Mission: Israeli Killing Of U.S. Citizen Was 'Execution'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/29/un-factfinding-mission-sa_n_743873.html


And of course, the obstructionist USA will always prevent justice when Israel commits war crimes...
UN Human Rights Council Backs Gaza Probe

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/30/headlines#2
The UN Human Rights Council has voted to endorse the findings of a probe backing the prosecution of Israeli officials for the May 31st attack on a Gaza-bound aid flotilla in international waters. A three-member panel of international jurists accused Israeli forces of "willful killing" and torture in the raid on the Mavi Marmara. Nine activists were killed in the attack, including a US citizen. The vote to endorse the report was 30 to one, with the US the lone country in opposition. US Ambassador Eileen Chamberlain Donahoe said the report undermines "the cause of peace."
Eileen Chamberlain Donahoe: "This incident underscores the need to move ahead quickly with negotiations that can lead to a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace. Direct talks between Israel and the Palestinians have been resumed, and all parties should help create an environment conducive to progress in these talks. We should all be working to advance the cause of peace. The United States was opposed to Resolution 14.1, and we oppose the current resolution’s recommendation that the General Assembly consider the fact-finding mission report. For these reasons, we call for a vote and will vote against this resolution."​
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']lol @ the human rights council that counts libya as one of its members being cited as an organization that should be taken seriously.[/QUOTE]

So the 28 other countries that voted for it are irrelevant because of the inclusion of Libya? Interesting view.
 
I just wanted to throw this out there...

I'm an American atheist Jew born in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. I just arrived from my second trip to Israel. I know a lot of you have your opinions and I am by no means discrediting them.. you're all entitled to your opinions. However, I'd say many of them are based on limited knowledge and are influenced more by personal ideological beliefs than anything else.. if you all understood the situation on the ground in Israel/Palestine, you might have a different opinion.

The relationship that the Israeli Jews have with the Israeli Muslims is complicated and multi-faceted. On the one hand, many of the Israeli Muslims are perfectly happy living side by side with their Jewish brothers, and might even be described as "patriotic". On the other hand, not all is as it seems.. one of the reasons these Muslims choose to live in Israel is because their Jewish employers compensate them much better than had they continued to work either in Palestinian territory, or one of the countries that their lineages can be traced to.. for example Jordan, Syria, Egypt.. etc. When questioned by their fellow Muslim countrymen, these individuals will without a doubt claim hatred for the Jewish people and the state of Israel. They are pressured to behave this way by their social circles, regardless of how they respond in public life. It's sad.. one of the only reasons these Muslims continue to live and work in Israel is because they are economically advantaged by doing so. They could just as easily choose to live in any of the 50 Muslim countries that surround them.. but they don't. Instead, the most uneducated and angry of them end up turning on the very state that has helped create them.. they end up terrorizing the Jewish people.

I've decided to move to Israel, become a citizen, and fight in the military. I'm tired of the terrorism that resides in the shadows of the minds of the Israeli people... I'm especially sick of some of the anti-Israeli sentiments I've lately seen from Western peoples... this includes but is not limited to the United States government (Obama, Clinton, Pelosi). It makes me absolutely sick to see Western nations express anti-Israeli attitudes. When jihad is an ever growing issue in Western-Muslim relations.. when events such as 9/11 open the eyes of Western peoples to radical Islamist ideology.. these are times when Western peoples are to band together with their Jewish brothers and work to crush the enemy... instead, I see antisemitism growing amongst the Western peoples.

If anyone wishes to hear more about my immigration to Israel... let me know.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']I just wanted to throw this out there...

I'm an American atheist Jew born in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. I just arrived from my second trip to Israel. I know a lot of you have your opinions and I am by no means discrediting them.. you're all entitled to your opinions. However, I'd say many of them are based on limited knowledge and are influenced more by personal ideological beliefs than anything else.. if you all understood the situation on the ground in Israel/Palestine, you might have a different opinion.

The relationship that the Israeli Jews have with the Israeli Muslims is complicated and multi-faceted. On the one hand, many of the Israeli Muslims are perfectly happy living side by side with their Jewish brothers, and might even be described as "patriotic". On the other hand, not all is as it seems.. one of the reasons these Muslims choose to live in Israel is because their Jewish employers compensate them much better than had they continued to work either in Palestinian territory, or one of the countries that their lineages can be traced to.. for example Jordan, Syria, Egypt.. etc. When questioned by their fellow Muslim countrymen, these individuals will without a doubt claim hatred for the Jewish people and the state of Israel. They are pressured to behave this way by their social circles, regardless of how they respond in public life. It's sad.. one of the only reasons these Muslims continue to live and work in Israel is because they are economically advantaged by doing so. They could just as easily choose to live in any of the 50 Muslim countries that surround them.. but they don't. Instead, the most uneducated and angry of them end up turning on the very state that has helped create them.. they end up terrorizing the Jewish people.

I've decided to move to Israel, become a citizen, and fight in the military. I'm tired of the terrorism that resides in the shadows of the minds of the Israeli people... I'm especially sick of some of the anti-Israeli sentiments I've lately seen from Western peoples... this includes but is not limited to the United States government (Obama, Clinton, Pelosi). It makes me absolutely sick to see Western nations express anti-Israeli attitudes. When jihad is an ever growing issue in Western-Muslim relations.. when events such as 9/11 open the eyes of Western peoples to radical Islamist ideology.. these are times when Western peoples are to band together with their Jewish brothers and work to crush the enemy... instead, I see antisemitism growing amongst the Western peoples.

If anyone wishes to hear more about my immigration to Israel... let me know.[/QUOTE]

uggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

good riddance
 
[quote name='Sporadic']uggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

good riddance[/QUOTE]

The feeling is mutual. Let me guess, you've never been to Israel? :roll:
 
Phrost, we all obviously have our own opinions based on varying levels of experience. One of my dearest friends was a member of the Israeli military during the 1st intifadah. Some amazing stories.

My main issue with your comment about the so-called Palestinians being from Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc, is that the exact same can be said for the Jews in Israel. How many of them have lived in Israel, or how many of them were there before 1948? They've posted historical surveys-the answer is very, very few. I don't recall the exact ratio, but it seems like it was somewhere around 5 arabs to 1 Jew.

Sure they may be better compensated by working inside of Israel, than from within Gaza or the West Bank, but that doesn't mean they should approve of the current Israeli domestic and foreign policies.

And as I'm sure you're well aware, it's not just the Muslim Arabs that are displeased with the current arrangement, but the Christian Arabs are quite upset as well. This isn't a Judaism vs. Islam issue. This is an Israel vs. _____ issue.

One more note-I agree. Anti-semitism is becoming increasingly problematic in the West...against arabs miscategorized as Muslims, and those who think all Muslims are arabs. Remember, the Jews aren't the only Semitic people in the world. ;)
 
I realize that "semite" mean both Arabs and Jews.. but I was only referring to the antisemitism in an "anti-Jewish" sense.

You're right.. prior to the creation of the Jewish state from the remnants of the British mandates, there were very few Jews living in the area. Luckily.. soon after the creation, Jews started to flock to the Holy Land and create a paradise where before, there was only a poor British colony in a vast desert. The Jews turned their opportunity into something special. They created a strong independent democracy in the middle of the world's most hostile region. Do I think that Christians and Muslims have as much right as Jews to live there? No, not completely.. I don't. I believe that Israel is a country for the Jewish people.. the only country for the Jewish people. Almost all the world is populated with predominantly Christian or Muslim countries, but there is only one Jewish country, and it's tiny.. about the size of New Jersey. I have no problems with Christians living in Israel.. Christians aren't strapping bombs to themselves and screaming "Allahu Akbar!" with the goal of killing innocent people. There are actually many Muslim Arabs that agree. The Bedouin people are true Israelis.. just like the Israeli Jews. They fight with the Israeli Jews against the Muslim terrorists. Frankly.. I'm tired of people attacking the only Jewish state in existence.. I'm going to do my part to protect the Jewish state and its peoples.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']I realize that "semite" mean both Arabs and Jews.. but I was only referring to the antisemitism in an "anti-Jewish" sense.

You're right.. prior to the creation of the Jewish state from the remnants of the British mandates, there were very few Jews living in the area. Luckily.. soon after the creation, Jews started to flock to the Holy Land and create a paradise where before, there was only a poor British colony in a vast desert. The Jews turned their opportunity into something special. They created a strong independent democracy in the middle of the world's most hostile region. Do I think that Christians and Muslims have as much right as Jews to live there? No, not completely.. I don't. I believe that Israel is a country for the Jewish people.. the only country for the Jewish people. Almost all the world is populated with predominantly Christian or Muslim countries, but there is only one Jewish country, and it's tiny.. about the size of New Jersey. I have no problems with Christians living in Israel.. Christians aren't strapping bombs to themselves and screaming "Allahu Akbar!" with the goal of killing innocent people. There are actually many Muslim Arabs that agree. The Bedouin people are true Israelis.. just like the Israeli Jews. They fight with the Israeli Jews against the Muslim terrorists. Frankly.. I'm tired of people attacking the only Jewish state in existence.. I'm going to do my part to protect the Jewish state and its peoples.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. You made it incredibly easy for me to add you to my ignore list. Anti-(Jewish) Semitism? Bad. Anti-Muslim? Good.

Now I understand your position. Perhaps someday you'll understand the hypocrisy of your statements.

Bye bye.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Luckily.. soon after the creation, Jews started to flock to the Holy Land and create a paradise where before, there was only a poor British colony in a vast desert. The Jews turned their opportunity into something special. They created a strong independent democracy in the middle of the world's most hostile region. Do I think that Christians and Muslims have as much right as Jews to live there? No, not completely.. I don't. [/QUOTE]

UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

You are literally the worse person ever.

[quote name='PhrostByte']The feeling is mutual. Let me guess, you've never been to Israel? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Even if I did, it wouldn't make you any less crazy.
 
Yea I'm crazy.. since I actually want to stand up for what I believe in.. Instead of being Mr. Armchair UN Peace Keeper. berzirk: I wasn't referring to anti-Israeli stances as antisemitic, but anti-Jewish stances as antisemitic. I see a lot of the antisemitism here as without even an attempt to be veiled. Does anyone here who has actually been to Israel agree that I'm crazy? Or is it only those that have formed opinions based on what they have heard in the media?
 
Uh, dude, the media is pretty pro-Israel (as well as patently NOT anti-Jewish). I have no idea where you are on this one.

Give an example of the media (or one of us) being anti-Israel, and an example of the media and us being anti-Jewish.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Does anyone here who has actually been to Israel agree that I'm crazy?[/QUOTE]

What does going to Israel including a free brainwashing or something?

- edit [quote name='PhrostByte']I wasn't referring to anti-Israeli stances as antisemitic, but anti-Jewish stances as antisemitic. [/QUOTE]

I don't think there is a difference between the two in your mind.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']What does going to Israel including a free brainwashing or something?

- edit

I don't think there is a difference between the two in your mind.[/QUOTE]

No.. going to Israel includes a free reality check, something you seem desperately in need of. I don't know what your beef with me is or your agenda or whatever.. but you're making yourself out to seem very foolish.

Feeding the access: I'd argue that it used to be vehemently pro-Israel, but lately that's been less the case. Strangely it seems FOX News has remained pro-Israel while the other media outlets have waned a bit. I'm not going to specifically hunt anything down, but the impression I've got from this thread has been that there's a lot of anti-Semitism.
 
Man, what the hell did I even say in this thr-

[quote name='Strell']If you deep fry flotillas and sprinkle them with cinnamon and sugar, you have yourself a right fine dessert.[/QUOTE]

Oh right.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']No.. going to Israel includes a free reality check, something you seem desperately in need of. I don't know what your beef with me is or your agenda or whatever.. but you're making yourself out to seem very foolish.[/QUOTE]

How? Because Isreal has a history of using way too much force in response to situations they always lie about, in the beginning, to help curve negative public opinion against them for their over-the-top actions? Because they proved me right by doing the exact things I said they would do as this story was still breaking?

But you know what sounds foolish to me? A person moving to a different country and joining their army because that person thinks it is their (and their people's) God given right to have that land and live there.

[quote name='PhrostByte']I'm not going to specifically hunt anything down, but the impression I've got from this thread has been that there's a lot of anti-Semitism.[/QUOTE]

"I'm not actually going to prove any of the horseshit I'm spewing all over the thread but trust me, there are a whole bunch of Jew haters in this thread."

--------

So, again...

[quote name='PhrostByte']I wasn't referring to anti-Israeli stances as antisemitic, but anti-Jewish stances as antisemitic. [/QUOTE]

I don't think there is a difference between the two in your mind.
 
Think whatever you want. My goal is not to convince you or anyone else. Until you go there and see for yourself.. any attempt to convince you otherwise is pointless, you're clearly set in your ways.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']but the impression I've got from this thread has been that there's a lot of anti-Semitism.[/QUOTE]
Being against Israeli policy is not antisemitism. Disliking Israeli politics, political parties, and leaders is not antisemitism.

Hating semites is antisemitism.
I'm especially sick of some of the anti-Israeli sentiments I've lately seen from Western peoples... this includes but is not limited to the United States government (Obama, Clinton, Pelosi).
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I would like a specific quote to support that.

I wonder why, as an American, you are not "sickened" by comments made by Avigdor Lieberman, Yisrael Beiteinu members, Yossi Peled, and Likud members that passively or actively shit talk American interests.
 
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"British mandates?" More like every country in Europe decided to kick all the Jews out of their continent and threw them on someone else's land that was already occupied.
 
I can't believe he actually acts like we don't know because we've A) never been there, or B) don't know anyone who has. About a month ago I had the opportunity to attend a conference that featured speakers from different areas of the world, one of them being a teacher from Palestine. by the time this woman had finished speaking about the Israel/Palestine conflict she had broken down in tears twice, with plenty of others in the audience having done so as well. Now you'll be happy to know that despite what you may think, that she laid the blame squarely at the feet of the Jews, she actually laid the blame at the Israeli government and its policies. She actually said that she felt most Israelis wanted peace as much as they do, but the government of Israel continues to be provocative. Now I don't need to have gone to Israel to read about the policies of its government, something that we hear and read about all the time. Unfortunately the Israeli lobby in the U.S. is so strong that we barely ever hear anything from the Palestinian perspective. Things like the wall that was built to wall off Israeli territory from Palestinian territory, what Palestinian territory is left that is. The Israeli government tends to keep taking more and more land. So just how much is enough? I mean it's already a nightmare trying to get from one area to another, with checkpoints and roads built to try and avoid Israeli territory.

But no, keep playing the victim card. You'd think it were the other way around, that Israel was there and it was the Palestinian state was created, forcing the Israelis off of their land.Finally, for the record, being critical of Israel and it's policies does not make one antisemitic. My problem is with the government of Israel, not Jews.
 
[quote name='dohdough']"British mandates?" More like every country in Europe decided to kick all the Jews out of their continent and threw them on someone else's land that was already occupied.[/QUOTE]
The British mandate is what it is actually called though. Not that it was only the British who had a hand in it.
 
[quote name='Clak']The British mandate is what it is actually called though. Not that it was only the British who had a hand in it.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. The Sykes-Picot Agreement effectively divided the middle east with boundaries designed to include warring ethnic groups in the same country, and separating larger territories that were in cooperation with one another. It was this philosophy that has caused much of the unrest in the middle east.

Then you've got the Balfour Declaration made on behalf of Britain in 1917 which many call the basis of the creation of Israel, for the puropose of: "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." (Emphasis mine)

I know quite a few people who live(d) in Palestine, several who live(d) in Israel, one of which served in the Israeli Military for a few years. One thing that is confirmed by a majority of them, both governments are a disaster, with no real desire to have peace with the other side. If the rest of the world got the hell out of the way and quit economically and politically supporting them, they'd have to eventually cave in and work together.
 
that's why i laugh when someone mentions dividing Iraq into separate ethnic areas. As if that has ever worked when we've tried in the past. Now If they wanted to themselves, that's their business, but it never works when we try.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/12/eric-cantor-benjamin-netanyahu-israel_n_782738.html

Eric Cantors tells the leader of a foreign country he will side with them against a United States president. Good stuff.


EDIT:
[quote name='Eric Cantor']Several leading legal authorities have made the case that her recent diplomatic overtures ran afoul of the Logan Act, which makes it a felony for any American “without authority of the United States” to communicate with a foreign government to influence that government’s behavior on any disputes with the United States.[/QUOTE]

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/220559/assads-speaker/eric-cantor#
 
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Under pressure from the Obama administration, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu began nudging his Cabinet on Sunday toward accepting a multibillion-dollar package of U.S. incentives to restart peace talks with Palestinians.

But Netanyahu immediately faced strong opposition from conservative politicians and Jewish settler groups, who vowed to block the American proposal because it would reimpose building restrictions in the West Bank for three months.
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We have to pay off our everlasting brothers with billions of dollars to do what we feel is in our best security interests and they still might not do it for political reasons.

With friends like these...
 
[quote name='speedracer']We have to pay off our everlasting brothers with billions of dollars to do what we feel is in our best security interests and they still might not do it for political reasons.

With friends like these...[/QUOTE]

Did you hear? The United Kingdom is offering us billions of dollars to just give back the southern states that once belonged to Mexico. I don't know why we just don't take it, I mean it is free money.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Maybe when I move to Israel I'll settle in the West Bank too... :][/QUOTE]
What's it called when an American intentionally chooses to hurt American interests? I forget.
[quote name='PhrostByte']I'm an American [/QUOTE]
lol

Successful troll is successful.
 
[quote name='PhrostByte']Maybe when I move to Israel I'll settle in the West Bank too... :][/QUOTE]

Who knows? Maybe they will confuse you for a protester and run you over with a bulldozer ^_^
 
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