Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

HowStern

CAGiversary!
Israeli troops have admitted what we all knew they were doing..So, this is sort of like if Richard Simmons admitted he was gay.

Israel troops admit Gaza abuses


An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.


One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.
Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.
The army has defended its conduct during the Gaza offensive but said it would investigate the testimonies.
The Israeli army has said it will investigate the soldiers' accounts.
The testimonies were published by the military academy at Oranim College. Graduates of the academy, who had served in Gaza, were speaking to new recruits at a seminar.


Soldier testimony


"[The testimonies] conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians," academy director Dany Zamir told public radio.
Heavy civilian casualties during the three-week operation which ended in the blockaded coastal strip on 18 January provoked an international outcry.
Correspondents say the testimonies undermine Israel's claims that troops took care to protect non-combatants and accusations that Hamas militants were responsible for putting civilians into harm's way.


'Less important'

The Palestinian woman and two of her children were allegedly shot after they misunderstood instructions about which way to walk having been ordered out of their home by troops.
"The climate in general... I don't know how to describe it.... the lives of Palestinians, let's say, are much, much less important than the lives of our soldiers," an infantry squad leader is quoted saying.


In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.
Testimonies, which were given by combat pilots and infantry soldiers, also included allegations of unnecessary destruction of Palestinian property.
"We would throw everything out of the windows to make room and order. Everything... Refrigerators, plates, furniture. The order was to throw all of the house's contents outside," a soldier said.
One non-commissioned officer related at the seminar that an old woman crossing a main road was shot by soldiers.
"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story… I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out… It was cold-blooded murder," he said.

The transcript of the session for the college's Yitzhak Rabin pre-military course, which was held last month, appeared in a newsletter published by the academy.
Israeli human rights groups have criticised the military for failing to properly investigate violations of the laws of war in Gaza despite plenty of evidence of possible war crimes.

'Moral army'

The soldiers' testimonies also reportedly told of an unusually high intervention by military and non-military rabbis, who circulated pamphlets describing the war in religious terminology.

"All the articles had one clear message," one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."
"Many soldiers' feelings were that this was a war of religion," he added.
Defence Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the findings would be examined seriously.
"I still say we have the most moral army in the world. Of course there may be exceptions but I have absolutely no doubt this will be inspected on a case-by-case basis," he said.
Medical authorities say more than 1,300 Palestinians were killed during Israel's 22-day operation, including some 440 children, 110 women, and dozens of elderly people.
The stated aim was to curb rocket and mortar fire by militants from Gaza. Thirteen Israelis, including three civilians were killed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm


edit: what do you guys think of that moral army part at the end? That is really weird to me. Maybe just a few nutso rabbis interjecting themselves?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
War makes people snap regardless of ethnicity or religious conviction. Our troops have done some atrocious things over there also and you can't pin everything on the entire state of Israel just like you can't paint ever American with the pictures of Abu Gharib or Guantanamo.
 
^Except for the fact that the Israeli army has always acted this way towards Palestinian civilians. This article is just some of the troops finally admitting it. Which is nice to see.
And, no one ever said this is how all Israelis act. Who implied that?

Also, please don't tell me you are comparing ill-treatment of prisoners to shooting children at point blank range in the face.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='depascal22']War makes people snap regardless of ethnicity or religious conviction. Our troops have done some atrocious things over there also and you can't pin everything on the entire state of Israel just like you can't paint ever American with the pictures of Abu Gharib or Guantanamo.[/quote]Right, you pin it on the organization. The Israeli army needs to discipline their troops.
 
I'm just saying that our troops (and every other nation's) have done the same thing. Look at Vietnam. Yes, sometimes there are isolated instances of criminal behavior on the battlefield but you guys like to forget that it's a battlefield. I used Abu Gharab as an example of embarassing behavior by troops. It isn't as severe but I'm also not even saying that it's equivalent behavior.

First of all, two or three reported incidents aren't abnormal for ANY unit in ANY war. In fact, it's commendable that the Israelis have released this report. How many reports have we seen from Hamas that readily account for everything that happened during the war?

Second of all, you guys forget that Hamas and their buddies love to hide out in residential areas. Then they love to point the finger when people in that area become collateral damage. You can't have it both ways. You can't cower behind your own people and then act like the victim when the bill comes due.


EDIT: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/85725/ Here's something instead of Abu Gharab since you guys like to get stuck on the bullshit details instead of the meat of an argument. Here is a prime example of our troops doing something just as heinous as anything that's in this article about the Israelis.

Do I think we're evil? Hell no. I just think some people can get carried away during a war and shit like this happens. Stop getting your panties in a bunch because bad stuff happens during war. They wouldn't call it war if it was all roses and cupcakes.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm just saying that our troops (and every other nation's) have done the same thing. Look at Vietnam. Yes, sometimes there are isolated instances of criminal behavior on the battlefield but you guys like to forget that it's a battlefield. I used Abu Gharab as an example of embarassing behavior by troops. It isn't as severe but I'm also not even saying that it's equivalent behavior.
[/quote]
So, that makes it Ok?

First of all, two or three reported incidents aren't abnormal for ANY unit in ANY war. In fact, it's commendable that the Israelis have released this report. How many reports have we seen from Hamas that readily account for everything that happened during the war?
A few incidents, eh?
So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, Dr Moawiya Hassanein, the head of Gaza's medical emergency services, told the Guardian. The number of injured after 19 days of fighting stood at 4,700, he said.
source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-city-fighiting-israel-un

And it's not commendable because Israel didn't release this report. A few rogue soldiers with a heavy conscience broke rank to reveal these statements. Military service is mandatory in Israel and those failing to follow order are jailed.
http://intifada-palestine.com/2009/02/25/israeli-student-jailed-for-refusing-to-serve-army-tours-uk/

Second of all, you guys forget that Hamas and their buddies love to hide out in residential areas. Then they love to point the finger when people in that area become collateral damage. You can't have it both ways. You can't cower behind your own people and then act like the victim when the bill comes due.
Uhh, Did you read the article? They were ordered to climb onto a roof and snipe an old woman...How is that collateral damage? They stuck a sniper rifle in a mother and her childrens faces and blew their heads off because the children misunderstood which way they were supposed to walk. Did the Israeli soldiers think Hamas were hiding in the kids' heads? It wasn't shrapnel from a badly targeted missile.

EDIT: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/85725/ Here's something instead of Abu Gharab since you guys like to get stuck on the bullshit details instead of the meat of an argument. Here is a prime example of our troops doing something just as heinous as anything that's in this article about the Israelis.

Do I think we're evil? Hell no. I just think some people can get carried away during a war and shit like this happens. Stop getting your panties in a bunch because bad stuff happens during war. They wouldn't call it war if it was all roses and cupcakes.
LOL. Ok, so, because one country kills innocent people it's ok that another does too. So, I shouldn't "get my panties in a bunch" about my tax dollars paying for this shit?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Stern don't mind him, he just has his head in the sand or is a shameless Israel shill. If I mentioned how it was in South Africa he wouldn't justify that. I mean the two situations are a lot alike. The only difference is the Palestinians fought back and got armed. I'm not saying any sides killing the others are all right.

But lets look at it from this standpoint, Israeli's were the one's that came in and occupied the area. If you had foreigners around the land where you'd grown up forever intruding, taking your land, threatening you, you'd start to get angry as well. Look at Tibet. It's commendable that most of them haven't just start attacking the Chinese troops in their lands. Also the people in general that are changing and taking their land. Are the Palestinian's just total pieces of shit for fighting back?

Seriously I would go so far as to say the Israeli situation is worse then Tibet. I mean showing ID at all the checkpoints around, sometimes NOT letting them through even when they have their papers. I mean as the occupiers some troops if not the majority are REALLY abusing their powers. It would take a strong constitution NOT to get up in arms about this shit.
 
First of all, I'm not saying it's OK. I'm just saying that it's odd that we never hear the stories of Sudanese troops or any other nation. You guys have such a hard on for the Palestinians.

Why is it OK to point out that Israel is an invader but it's not OK to point out that the Muslims invaded hundreds of years ago?

Are Palestinians pieces of shit for fighting back? No way. I just think their anger should be directed at their leadership that continues to attack Israel so they can garner global support for their cause.

Tibet is a bad analogy because the Chinese didn't originally come from Tibet. They have no historical claim on the land whatsoever. In fact, I'd compare Tibet with Israel before 1947. The Israelis were living on their land but it was controlled by the Palestinians (gasp) just like the Tibetans now.

South Africa is a decent analogy. Muslims could be seen as living under a form of apartheid. That being said, apartheid (and Jim Crow here in America) was overthrown using mostly peaceful methods.
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm just saying that our troops (and every other nation's) have done the same thing. Look at Vietnam. Yes, sometimes there are isolated instances of criminal behavior on the battlefield but you guys like to forget that it's a battlefield. I used Abu Gharab as an example of embarassing behavior by troops. It isn't as severe but I'm also not even saying that it's equivalent behavior.

First of all, two or three reported incidents aren't abnormal for ANY unit in ANY war. In fact, it's commendable that the Israelis have released this report. How many reports have we seen from Hamas that readily account for everything that happened during the war?

Second of all, you guys forget that Hamas and their buddies love to hide out in residential areas. Then they love to point the finger when people in that area become collateral damage. You can't have it both ways. You can't cower behind your own people and then act like the victim when the bill comes due.


EDIT: http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/85725/ Here's something instead of Abu Gharab since you guys like to get stuck on the bullshit details instead of the meat of an argument. Here is a prime example of our troops doing something just as heinous as anything that's in this article about the Israelis.

Do I think we're evil? Hell no. I just think some people can get carried away during a war and shit like this happens. Stop getting your panties in a bunch because bad stuff happens during war. They wouldn't call it war if it was all roses and cupcakes.[/quote]
Never said that our own troops don't do horrible things, i also think our own troops need to be disciplined when shit like this happens.
 
It just seems like everyone is all over Israel for everything they do but the rest of the world seems to get a pass. It sucks whenever this stuff happens but it's kind of an inevitable by product of war.
 
^ No, everyone is all over Israel because they are exceptionally forceful. Always excessive. The U.N. has gone after them for war crimes around 60 times. And Americans should be especially all over them because it is our tax money paying for it. We paid for those kids deaths. We paid for these war crimes.
People complain about bonuses (which is shitty, yeah..), but think of how much money we'd save as a country if we stopped funding Israel - the sixteenth richest country in the whole world - and their over reactions?
Sixteenth richest country in the world yet one-third of all US aid goes to them.

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
 
[quote name='depascal22']
Why is it OK to point out that Israel is an invader but it's not OK to point out that the Muslims invaded hundreds of years ago?
[/quote]

Why is it OK to point out that the Muslims invaded hundreds of years ago but it's not OK to point out that the Israelites invaded thousands of years ago at the expense of the Canaanites?;)
 
i am not condoning it, but this shit always happens in war, this comes from many things, poorly trained soldiers, poor leadership, not being mentally prepared for combat. Israel walks a narrow line, having to defend itself while avoiding civilian causalities, which sadly it has been failing lately. There is really no right answers to this situation, they give a little, the other side wants more. They take a little back everyone else wants them to give more. Until someone can come up with a reasonable a enforceable solution they are doomed to repeat the cycle of misery for the foreseeable future.
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']i am not condoning it, but this shit always happens in war, this comes from many things, poorly trained soldiers, poor leadership, not being mentally prepared for combat. Israel walks a narrow line, having to defend itself while avoiding civilian causalities, which sadly it has been failing lately .[/quote]

But to put things into perspective a little bit more. It isn't just lately that they are failing to protect civilians.
From September 29, 2000, when the current Palestinian intifada erupted, through January 18, 2008, at least 1056 Palestinian and 123 Israeli youths under the age of 18 were killed in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. Thousands more have been injured, many permanently.
1056 dead Palestinian kids. 123 dead Israeli kids.
That's almost 10-1.
And we are now finding out, through the soldiers own admission, that some of these were direct orders.

http://rememberthesechildren.org/about.html

There is a list of all the childrens names on that site in chronological order of death. Their age and how they died is included. "This type of thing" with this level of severity doesn't happen in a legitimate war.
 
[quote name='HowStern']But to put things into perspective a little bit more. It isn't just lately that they are failing to protect civilians.
1056 dead Palestinian kids. 123 dead Israeli kids.
That's almost 10-1.
And we are now finding out, through the soldiers own admission, that some of these were direct orders.

http://rememberthesechildren.org/about.html

There is a list of all the childrens names on that site in chronological order of death. Their age and how they died is included. "This type of thing" with this level of severity doesn't happen in a legitimate war.[/quote]


how do you attack an enemy that hides in civilian areas?
 
^That's just Israels excuse. It always has been. That's the whole point of why this article is such big news... :facepalm: It shows that the civilian casualties aren't due to Hamas "hiding in civilian areas." It uproots that facade publicly finally. The soldiers outright admit to very plain and simply being ordered to kill civilians. Did you read the article? Or see the article looploop just posted? They are proud of this..I don't think it would be out of line to call it genocide at this point.

@looploop, holy shit..They aren't even trying to hide it anymore..My mind is short-circuiting right now as to 1)how anyone can defend Israel and 2)why we are giving them tax money. I'm really not into my tax money paying for war crimes..I'm weird like that :p
That is disgusting..

This part is nuts

"It has a drawing depicting a soldier as the Angel of Death, next to a gun and an Arab town," he explains. "The text was very powerful. The funniest part was that when our soldier came to get the shirts, the man who printed them was an Arab, and the soldier felt so bad that he told the girl at the counter to bring them to him."

Does the design go to the commanders for approval?

The Givati soldier: "Usually the shirts undergo a selection process by some officer, but in this case, they were approved at the level of platoon sergeant. We ordered shirts for 30 soldiers and they were really into it, and everyone wanted several items and paid NIS 200 on average."
 
[quote name='HowStern']^That's just Israels excuse. It always has been. That's the whole point of why this article is such big news... It shows that the civilian casualties aren't due to Hamas "hiding in civilian areas." It uproots that facade publicly finally. The soldiers outright admit to very plain and simply being ordered to kill civilians. Did you read the article? Or see the article looploop just posted? They are proud of this..I don't think it would be out of line to call it genocide at this point.[/quote]



i read the article, so these soldiers speak for every soldier in the Israeli army? This one article shows all every civilian was killed, cause i didnt think it mentioned that many people :facepalm: You can keep living your life in terms of black and white, but for most of us life is gray. Enjoy the view from your ivory tower.
 
[quote name='HowStern']^I don't think you could fit an article with every Palestinian civilian killed on the internet

If 1056 children isn't "that many" Then I don't know what is..
Enjoy supporting/defending baby killers.

http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2000.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2001.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2002.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2003.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2005.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2006.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2007.html
http://rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html[/quote]


enjoy sounding like a pampas ass, in every war there are civilian casualties but to hold every soldier responsible is idiotic at best. You can keep posting every link in the world, but that isnt convincing anyone. I do know some soldiers in Israel, and guess how many children they have killed 0.
 
For some reason the far left like to portay Israel as the bad guy and Palestinians as the victims. Which of course is bullshit. That's not to say that there aren't some bad apples among the soldiers, though.

Bottom line is that less kids would die if Hamas stopped using civilians as human shields in warzones. Hamas cares more about the destruction of Israel than the welfare of its own people.
 
@ikohn: You're argument is exactly what you are accusing me of. You are saying that because the soldiers you know haven't killed any children, then none of them have?
:facepalm: This is the exact opposite of saying that if a few soldiers kill children they all do. Which I never said.

What I am saying is that, look at the exceptionally high rate of Palestinian civilian casualties. Look at the latest report of soldiers admitting they were ordered to kill civilians. Look at the link looploop posted where the IDF openly wears shirts supporting killing pregnant palestinian women. Now put 2 and 2 together. The evidence has been stacked up. You are really naive if you think that just because this is the first time they admit it then it must be the first time it has happened.

Also, I highly doubt you even read any of the links. And you should probably look up the word "Pampas" lol...


@Ruined, The soldiers admitted to being ordered to kill civilian children, that they knew were clearly not a threat, at point blank range. How is that Hamas' fault? Please don't join the conversation if you haven't read the article of the topic.

This might just be a hunch but maybe people portray Israel as the bad guy and Palestine as the victims because the U.N. has passed 131 resolutions at Israel and 0 towards Palestine.

Jews against the occupation
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='looploop']On the topic of Israeli military personnel conduct:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072466.html[/QUOTE]

She's holding a AK-47 or what looks to be a AK-47 - that's gonna get you shot, even if you are pregnant. But that's just a shirt and these are just stories in which we are all far removed. It's easy to be sympathetic or disgusted through a forum discussion about specific cases. I don't know of any war vet who posts in these politics/controversy threads but I'm guessing most of us do not know what war is like or the circumstances of the aforementioned events. Investigations should be conducted on these instances but one shouldn't condemn the entire IDF or country as a whole on the behavior of a few.
 
Are some of you defending this because you think the alternative would be to defend terrorists on the "other side"? You know you can condemn both, right?
 
[quote name='tivo']She's holding a AK-47 or what looks to be a AK-47 - that's gonna get you shot, even if you are pregnant.[/quote]...

That... that's too fucked up to even get the "Wait. What?" LOLcat out of me, man.
 
When it's one or two exceptions, I don't mind, but when it becomes institutionalized, that's when I take issue.
15245789.jpg

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Wo...03315245946?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2

Also, they fire flechette shells in residential areas. I don't mean from a gun, I mean from a tank cannon. That's 30,000 steel darts being propelled in a wide cone in the middle of a public street. If you argue with this, then you really need your head screwed in tighter.
 
[quote name='HowStern']@ikohn: You're argument is exactly what you are accusing me of. You are saying that because the soldiers you know haven't killed any children, then none of them have?
:facepalm: This is the exact opposite of saying that if a few soldiers kill children they all do. Which I never said.

What I am saying is that, look at the exceptionally high rate of Palestinian civilian casualties. Look at the latest report of soldiers admitting they were ordered to kill civilians. Look at the link looploop posted where the IDF openly wears shirts supporting killing pregnant palestinian women. Now put 2 and 2 together. The evidence has been stacked up. You are really naive if you think that just because this is the first time they admit it then it must be the first time it has happened.

Also, I highly doubt you even read any of the links. And you should probably look up the word "Pampas" lol...


@Ruined, The soldiers admitted to being ordered to kill civilian children, that they knew were clearly not a threat, at point blank range. How is that Hamas' fault? Please don't join the conversation if you haven't read the article of the topic.

This might just be a hunch but maybe people portray Israel as the bad guy and Palestine as the victims because the U.N. has passed 131 resolutions at Israel and 0 towards Palestine.

Jews against the occupation
 
^I'm not condemning them because of a few baby killers. I'm condemning them for their constant excessive force and their choice of promoting it on casual wear(the link Obscur posted). And just like Obscur said anyone who argues with this needs their head screwed in tighter.
 
bread's done
Back
Top