it continues: Manhunt 2 given AO rating in the U.S.

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Apossum

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Manhunt 2 and the AO rating:
http://gamepolitics.com/2007/06/19/breaking-manhunt-2-rated-adults-only-by-esrb/

This just in from Take Two Interactive, publisher of the embattled Manhunt 2:

The ESRB has issued an initial rating of AO (Adults Only) for Manhunt 2.

We believe the process of rating videogames is to help people make informed entertainment choices and not to limit them.

Manhunt 2 was created for mature audiences and we strongly believe it should receive an M (Mature) rating, aligning it with similar content created in other forms of media. We are exploring our options with regard to the rating of Manhunt 2.

Beyond that, T2 isn’t talking. It is unknown exactly when the AO was assigned to Manhunt 2, but it would have to have been less than 30 days ago, based on earlier comments by ESRB president Patricia Vance.

GP: For a video game publisher, the economic impact of an AO rating cannot be overstated. It means that major retailers like Wal-mart, which by itself accounts for about 25% of retail games sales, will not carry Manhunt 2. There is an appeal process available to game pubilshers who wish to dispute rating assignments.
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http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=25909


"To issue a certificate would involve a range of unjustifiable risks, to both adults and minors"

The BBFC has rejected Rockstar's Manhunt 2, banning the controversial title from sale anywhere in the UK.

Both PlayStation 2 and Wii versions of the game have been banned, with the BBFC unable to recommend cuts or removal of content to make it suitable for public sale.

"Where possible we try to consider cuts or, in the case of games, modifications which remove the material which contravenes the Board’s published Guidelines. In the case of Manhunt 2 this has not been possible," revealed David Cooke, director of the BBFC.

"Manhunt 2 is distinguishable from recent high-end video games by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone in an overall game context which constantly encourages visceral killing with exceptionally little alleviation or distancing.

"There is sustained and cumulative casual sadism in the way in which these killings are committed, and encouraged, in the game," he continued.

The BBFC has stated that the sequel to Manhunt is far more brutal and bleak than the original title, which was granted an 18 rating in 2003.

"Although the difference should not be exaggerated the fact of the game’s unrelenting focus on stalking and brutal slaying and the sheer lack of alternative pleasures on offer to the gamer, together with the different overall narrative context, contribute towards differentiating this submission from the original Manhunt game," added Cooke.

"Against this background, the Board’s carefully considered view is that to issue a certificate to Manhunt 2, on either platform, would involve a range of unjustifiable harm risks, to both adults and minors, within the terms of the Video Recordings Act, and accordingly that its availability, even if statutorily confined to adults, would be unacceptable to the public."

The last game to be banned by the BBFC was Carmageddon in 1997. Publisher Rockstar has the right to appeal against the BBFC's decision.

Rockstar was not available at the time of writing.
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The game does look beyond tasteless, but banning stuff sucks.
 
Last game banned in the UK was Carmageddon eh, I wouldn't say the Uk is one of the stricter european countries either, there's no way this'll get through in Germany.

I wonder if they can make changes and re-submit it.
 
This isn't really news. The original Manhunt was banned in several places. Not exactly sure where but I know if you try to list it on ebay with International shipping they don't let you list it. I don't know which areas you have to remove exactly to get it to work.
 
At the same time, Rockstar knew this game would be banned in a lot of places. Hence why they never invested in a PS3/360 version of the game. It's easier to make money on a Wii/PS2 production cost in limited markets than HD versions.
 
I disapprove of your crappy game, but I will defend to the death your right to play/publish it.

This kind of activity is scarier than the stuff that happens in the Manhunt games.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I disapprove of your crappy game, but I will defend to the death your right to play/publish it.

This kind of activity is scarier than the stuff that happens in the Manhunt games.[/quote]

What's even scarier is this kind of activity going on with Harry Potter books.
 
I thought the UK was a beacon for Liberalism. Same with Australia.

... yet they always ban films, video games, music and other forms of art.
 
[quote name='Brak']I thought the UK was a beacon for Liberalism. Same with Australia.

... yet they always ban films, video games, music and other forms of art.[/quote]

I think the UK generally cuts a good balance between censorship and the "anything goes" attittude of some other european countries.

The Uk used to censor a lot more than it does now, especially with art and films back in the 70's/80's. These days I think it gets things about right.
 
[quote name='mrchainsaw']Good. I don't see how Manhunt can be fun at all and it definitely isn't doing any good.[/QUOTE]

First: am I the only one here that really enjoyed the first Manhunt? That game was crazy tense.

Second: I don't see how censorship can do any good...
 
[quote name='Brak']I thought the UK was a beacon for Liberalism. Same with Australia.

... yet they always ban films, video games, music and other forms of art.[/quote]

In America the Dems are seen as liberals but I think we can all agree that they are moderately hostile to violent video games. These days liberal is typically taken to mean favoring big govt - IMO it follows that big govt would eventually start becoming nanny govt if unchecked by the people.

My theory is that Americans associate censorship and morality police with conservatives because of the recent administration.
 
[quote name='willardhaven']I disapprove of your crappy game, but I will defend to the death your right to play/publish it.

This kind of activity is scarier than the stuff that happens in the Manhunt games.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with the first statement. If parents were more on top of regulating what their kids play, this wouldn't be necessary. It's being banned because many parents are lazy as hell. (It's possible for parents to use the ESRB or EU equivalent-- my nephew asks his parents first whenever he wants to try a game over E.)

but i dunno...I'm more scared of having balls and one of my vertebrae ripped off by fireplace tongs :lol:
 
[quote name='camoor']In America the Dems are seen as liberals but I think we can all agree that they are moderately hostile to violent video games. These days liberal is typically taken to mean favoring big govt - IMO it follows that big govt would eventually start becoming nanny govt if unchecked by the people.

My theory is that Americans associate censorship and morality police with conservatives because of the recent administration.[/QUOTE]
Both sides do it equally, if not entirely different from one another.

Essentially, they both ban things that offend their side of the fence.

I'd be so bold to say that the American Liberals are more censorship-crazy than the Right.
 
So, can't they still get an M rating in the states and import it to the UK? Is the Wii region locked between U.S. and U.K. to prevent this? If this game gets good reviews, it could convince me to buy a wii.
Side note: will we be offered plastic 3rd party broken bottles and shivs to insert our Wiimotes into ala tennis racket and golf accessories, in order to heighten the realism of killing a bum so he doesn't alert nearby guards?
 
[quote name='mrchainsaw']Good. I don't see how Manhunt can be fun at all and it definitely isn't doing any good.[/quote]
Censorship/government intervention is never good. What does it matter if the game doesn't do any good? The idea of that something is only valid if it's beneficial to society is draconian, and is the first thought that triggers a violation of our freedoms. Obviously the game won't be banned here, but in a country that is supposed to be free, this sort of act is simply unacceptable.
 
This is a genuine question, I'm not just trying to stir things.

How far should "freedom of speech" or not censoring/banning some content in games go, would people be so up in arms if "Child Rape Simulator 2" had been submitted to a ratings board and subsequently not given a rating. Doesn't a line need to be drawn somewhere ?

Oh and I could be wrong about this but I believe the BBFC is not a government agency, again I could be wrong on that.

EDIT - Apparently the Carmageddon ban was over-turned on appeal.
 
I would think Sony or Nintendo would not approve a child rape game... They have the final say in what gets published I think. I am not sure that is correct though, it's just what I assume is the case.
 
[quote name='benjamouth']This is a genuine question, I'm not just trying to stir things.

How far should "freedom of speech" or not censoring/banning some content in games go, would people be so up in arms if "Child Rape Simulator 2" had been submitted to a ratings board and subsequently not given a rating. Doesn't a line need to be drawn somewhere ?
.[/QUOTE]

The protection of speech wasn't put in the constitution to protect that which is popular, it was out in there to protect the fringe "crazy" stuff. So yes, all that racist, sexist, insane tripe should be allowed. Period. "Child Rape Simulator" is different from child pornography; Child Porn isn't protected under the 1st amendment because it is causing harm to another(contrast with ..."regular"...porn.)
 
I'd be so bold to say that the American Liberals are more censorship-crazy than the Right.
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Not really that bold when you look at the history of censorship in America. Only when you get to these moronic Neo-Cons (that have taken over the Right) that it starts becoming a wash
 
[quote name='PRMega']First: am I the only one here that really enjoyed the first Manhunt? That game was crazy tense.

Second: I don't see how censorship can do any good...[/quote]

Hrmm... my mind might be changing a bit when it comes to violent games. At least where the Wii is concerned. You know that retail outlets aren't gonna follow the 'M' rated rules about not selling to minors so censorship might be the only option. I've been thinking about this ever since that politician mentioned being able to do the actual arm and hand movements of slitting someone's throat with the Wii controls.

Videogames have always been more immersive than other forms of entertainment, but actually being able to simulate the physical movements of brutal murder over and over for a 10 to 15 hour game might be too much.
 
[quote name='fart_bubble']Not really that bold when you look at the history of censorship in America. Only when you get to these moronic Neo-Cons (that have taken over the Right) that it starts becoming a wash[/quote]

I generally agree with this statement.
 
[quote name='dragonreborn23']Hrmm... my mind might be changing a bit when it comes to violent games. At least where the Wii is concerned. You know that retail outlets aren't gonna follow the 'M' rated rules about not selling to minors so censorship might be the only option. I've been thinking about this ever since that politician mentioned being able to do the actual arm and hand movements of slitting someone's throat with the Wii controls.

Videogames have always been more immersive than other forms of entertainment, but actually being able to simulate the physical movements of brutal murder over and over for a 10 to 15 hour game might be too much.[/quote]

Actually, I don't know that retail outlets are going to ignore the 'M' rated rules. I would concede that there will be a few isolated cases, but for the majority of the time I believe that the kids getting this game will be recieving it as a present from an adult.

I think the game is tasteless and I don't see the appeal. However your assertion that the game is "too much" smacks of truthiness (however if you have a scientific opinion that you can source, I'd like to see it)
 
[quote name='Brak']

I'd be so bold to say that the American Liberals are more censorship-crazy than the Right.[/QUOTE]

It's the truth. That's why political correctness is so rampant now. Both the far right and left are dangerous to freedom of expression.
 
Rockstar answers.

Shame on anyone here who expressed support for the ban. Whether you find the game in question "entertaining" should be the last thing on your mind.

It would be wise to remember that the same people who would stop you from listening to Boards of Canada may be back next year to complain about a book, or even a TV programme. If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. Defend your constitutionally-protected rights. No one else will do it for you. Thank you.
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nice Boards of Canada quote...I always found that track to be pretty ominous and I guess this is exactly what it's referring to.
 
Since people are starting all kinds of new threads for the same discussion...

GamePolitics.com just reported that Manhunt 2 gets AO rating. LINK.


We are exploring our options with regard to the rating of Manhunt 2.
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It's safe to say that an appeal is forthcoming.
 
[quote name='dopa345']It's the truth. That's why political correctness is so rampant now. Both the far right and left are dangerous to freedom of expression.[/QUOTE]

Word
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']Rockstar answers.

Shame on anyone here who expressed support for the ban. Whether you find the game in question "entertaining" should be the last thing on your mind.[/quote]

Au contraire, Colbert! It is Rockstar who should feel shame. All game developers should start being more responsible about their game content. Videogames are not the cause of all our societal problems, but they are much more interactive and repetitive than any 1-2 hour movie. Whether we gamers like it or not, causing the death and destruction yourself is different than watching it unfold. How much different? No one really knows, but saying I should feel shame for wanting to ban an interactive experience that no one really knows the full effects of is ridiculous.
 
All this means is more American kids buying what will probably be a pretty crappy game because it's getting great free publicity.

I don't think video games lead to violent behavior, but companies should at least be expected to have some sense of taste when creating them. More importantly I'd like to see actual enforcement of the ratings system, which I think would kill a majority of the market for this type of game (assuming it really is as tasteless as it would appear).
 
[quote name='dragonreborn23']No one really knows, but saying I should feel shame for wanting to ban an interactive experience that no one really knows the full effects of is ridiculous.[/quote]

So you would rather ban something, despite your addmitted ignorance of it and its effects? Based on what, exactly do YOU make your claim? Because the game preview did not appeal to you?

I'm glad you trust the goverment to separate the good games from the bad ones. Especially since you admit that they are doing guesswork just as the rest of us do, since "no one really knows the full effects of (violent video games)." There is a fine line between AO rating (limited cencorship which does not prohibit interested parties from obtaining a title) and a "ban."
 
Basically, there needs to be a legitimate Ao rating so that the M rating can be more defined and so that developers have more room for Adult content that isn't sexual in nature. It's so stupid that such a huge amount of the games on the shelf are M rated, and the Ao is so rarely used. M for the Halos, MGSs, Ninja Gaidens, Ao for the GTAs, Manhunts, and Fallouts.
 
Updated the OP

[quote name='dragonreborn23']Au contraire, Colbert! It is Rockstar who should feel shame. All game developers should start being more responsible about their game content. Videogames are not the cause of all our societal problems, but they are much more interactive and repetitive than any 1-2 hour movie. Whether we gamers like it or not, causing the death and destruction yourself is different than watching it unfold. How much different? No one really knows, but saying I should feel shame for wanting to ban an interactive experience that no one really knows the full effects of is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]


"causing death and destruction" :rofl:


yeah, there's a rowdy group of gamers outside my apartment ripping people's balls off as we speak. Guess I'll skip that trip to Walgreen's :roll:
 
Someone on the INTERNET had an interesting comment, on why there isnt a legitimate AO rating:
AO is for whatever the ESRB feels would harm the industry. The primary purpose of ESRB is to prevent government regulation of content, and their only tools are the M and AO ratings. M is meant to give an aura of responsibility on the part of retailers and publishers. AO is meant to straight-up censor via economic sanction.

The text descriptions of the ratings have nothing to do with it.
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no surprises there. That could completely backfire and Rockstar is just the company to turn this controversy into a point of purchase.

after all, they just got $50,000,000 richer...why would they give a fuck? :lol:
 
[quote name='DesertEagleXIX']I guess Manhunt 2 it's it's current form will never see the light of day. Sad...[/quote]

has take 2/rockstar come out and said that? There is a ton of potential customers on the wii craving for a new game, and not all of them are kids. I am sure they could do fine financially by selling it as an AO game. Yes, they will lose some sales due to walmart not carrying it, but IMO, it could make them some money by selling it as an AO game. I am sure other boards are talking about the rating on the game, and it will sell due to the curiosity of people to see why it was an AO game.
 
[quote name='ryanbph']has take 2/rockstar come out and said that? There is a ton of potential customers on the wii craving for a new game, and not all of them are kids. I am sure they could do fine financially by selling it as an AO game.[/quote]

I think you should do some research. Nintendo Publishing Policy explicitly prohibits AO games on the system. In other words, NO AO MANHUNT ON THE WII.

AO is a sentiment of "extreme offense" that should be marketed to a very small group of "special interest" persons (very much like legal pornography). I will not argue for or against the AO rating - it is completely up to ESRB. While many may argue that it is "cencorship via economic sanction," it is a perfectly legitimate affair because that's the service ESRB is intended to serve.

The game's contents and the extent of violence expressed within are unknown at the time, and I do not believe that anyone can judge ESRB. I will say, however, that I'd much rather have ESRB rating versus a government regulated ban. Once again this is a reminder why we should embrace and support ESRB and not trust any federal regulation regarding rating and regulation on video games. Free enterprise and market economy regarding interested parties obviously takes care of this well on its own.
 
[quote name='ryanbph']has take 2/rockstar come out and said that?[/QUOTE]

No, it was speculation. Although I don't see any major chains carring this game. Why? the bad publicity could hurt them. If Gamestop sold the game, it could bite them in the ass later. They are a pretty conservative company, and I don't think they risk a bit of money against a huge media uprising (which could happen, look at the whole, idiotic Hot Coffee coverage).
 
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