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http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/88300.html

Where consent isn’t freely given, forcible rape is lawful. Such is the logic — if that word can be tortured into applying here — behind the Supreme Court’s ruling in the case of Kentucky v. King, in which the Regime’s judicial branch destroys whatever remained of the illusive Fourth Amendment protection against warrantless searches.

As with most rulings of this kind, the case was a byproduct of the Regime’s ongoing Narcotics Price Support Program. Narcotics officers in Lexington, Kentucky went trolling for patsies in a poor neighborhood that is most likely a preferred fishing hole for such activities. Using an undercover informant, the narcs set up a “controlled buy” of crack cocaine. Once the transaction was through, the merchant headed back to his apartment, which was one of two that were found at the end of a breezeway. The suspect was seen entering the apartment on the right, but the uniformed officers who arrived at the scene weren’t aware of this fact.

After discerning the aroma of marijuana emanating from the door on the left, the officers banged on it insistently and demanded to be let in. They later said that they “could hear people inside moving,” and what were taken to be the sounds of “things being moved inside the apartment.” Fearful that evidence would be destroyed, the officers kicked in the door, finding three terrified people inside. A “protective sweep” — “officer safety” über alles, you know — revealed a small amount of crack cocaine and marijuana.

A Kentucky Circuit Court ruled that the evidence seized in this warrantless search was admissible because it “consensual entry” was denied, and waiting to obtain a warrant would permit the destruction of evidence. The Kentucky Supreme Court reversed that ruling, pointing out that audible noises behind a closed door did not constitute reliable evidence “that evidence was being destroyed.” The state Court noted as well that it is impermissible for police deliberately to create “the exigent circumstances with the bad faith intent to avoid the warrant requirement” found in the Fourth Amendment.

Writing on behalf of the Supreme Court’s dominant Authoritarian Right faction, Justice Samuel Alito insisted that the fault resided entirely with defendant Hollis King, who supposedly could have refused to respond to the police (presumably by remaining perfectly silent), or could have come to the door and demanded that the police return with a warrant. “Occupants who choose not to stand on their constitutional rights but instead elect to attempt to destroy evidence have only themselves to blame,” sniffed Alito.

“How `secure’ do our homes remain if police, armed with no warrant, can pound on doors at will and, on hearing sounds indicative of things moving, forcibly enter and search for evidence of unlawful activity?” replied Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg. “The court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then break the door down, nevermind that they had ample time to obtain a warrant.”

For several years, Punitive Populists have insisted that the Regime should be permitted to torture people identified as “terrorists,” since such people aren’t entitled to the protection of legal guarantees such as those found in the Eighth Amendment and the Geneva Conventions. After all, we already know that they’re terrorists, and so they shouldn’t be permitted to withhold evidence. After all, the Constitution “isn’t a suicide pact.” Obviously, the same reasoning (once again, assuming that this is the appropriate word) applies to the Fourth Amendment’s purported guarantees against warrantless searches.

There is a sense, I suppose, in which the Constitution is a suicide pact: It has been used to seduce people into thinking that parchment can serve as an effective impediment to power.

The PATRIOT Act already gave federal agents the power of writs of assistance; hell, why not all enforcement officers?

Also shocking: the government's highest court voting in favor of the government.
 
[quote name='solid snake']You know what the founders, and militia men back in the 1770's would do about this?[/QUOTE]

Not worried about it because marijuana was legal and crack didn't exist?
 
[quote name='depascal22']Not worried about it because marijuana was legal and crack didn't exist?[/QUOTE]
Sad they had more liberty back then than we do now and they had a revolution over it.
 
[quote name='solid snake']Sad they had more liberty back then than we do now and they had a revolution over it.[/QUOTE]

The Revolution was never solely about freedom. Money had more of a role. We would've been a colony for much longer if taxes had never been increased.

And what liberty? Slavery was legal. Women couldn't vote. How was that better than what we have now? For some reason, I don't want to go back to a time when I was three fifths of a human being.

As for the people in the OP, I sympathize with them. They probably should've used the towel under the door and incense trick but that doesn't mean the police should bang their door down. Most of us feel that marijuana should be legalized but you need to keep that on the down low.
 
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Why shouldn't the person that had the police in their apartment or house or whatever sue the actual suspect? That's kinda of what would be right...
 
[quote name='nasum']Why shouldn't the person that had the police in their apartment or house or whatever sue the actual suspect? That's kinda of what would be right...[/QUOTE]

Because they still were in possession of marijuana AND crack. They might've gotten away with weed but nobody gets a slap on the wrist for crack.
 
That's not a new precedent though.

There 7 current precedents when warrantless searches can be done.

1. Plainview--if the evidence is in plain sight, no warrant is needed (obviously as no search is needed).

2. Search incident to lawful arrest--if one is being arrested with probable cause they can search the immediate vicinity of the arrest.

3. Special needs--this covers things like metal detectors at air ports, court houses etc. This is ok as everyone is searched and/or it is random.

4. Exigent circumstances--when there's probable cause of danger or evidence being destroyed if they wait for a warrant

5. Consensual--they can ask permission of the person to be searched/owner of the place to be searched, if they consent no warrant is needed

6. Automobile searches--vehicles are mobile, so if they have probable cause to find evidence of a crime, they can search the car without waiting for a warrant.

7. Stop and Frisks (pat downs) on the street. If they have reasonable suspicion the person has drugs or weapons etc., they can stop them and pat them down.


The case in question would hit the "exigent circumstances" exception since they had probable cause of there being drugs in the apartment and could hear people moving around and not answering the door--thus reason to believe evidence was being destroyed.


Now I'm not saying these exceptions are ideal or that I agree with them etc. Just that the court ruling isn't really news as it's just enforcing existing precedent as that situation does fit clearly within the current exigent circumstances precedent. So it's not a further erosion of the 4th amendment.
 
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Also:
"Where consent isn’t freely given, forcible rape is lawful"
Probably the most poorly written sentence ever. Id even be stunned if Rush made that drastic of a leap in logic and he can somehow or another go from banana's to Ronald Reagan and GWB killing Osama bin Laden with his barehands while landing that jet on the aircraft carrier and someone was playing dulcet tones on a piano nearby.

Also, also:
Say what you will about the war on drugs and all that, but they had crack in the house, they're breaking the law, why are we complaining that they got caught?
 
[quote name='depascal22']The Revolution was never solely about freedom. Money had more of a role. We would've been a colony for much longer if taxes had never been increased.

And what liberty? Slavery was legal. Women couldn't vote. How was that better than what we have now? For some reason, I don't want to go back to a time when I was three fifths of a human being.

As for the people in the OP, I sympathize with them. They probably should've used the towel under the door and incense trick but that doesn't mean the police should bang their door down. Most of us feel that marijuana should be legalized but you need to keep that on the down low.[/QUOTE]

Actually many believed slavery was wrong and Ben Franklin was the one that i believe established the first anti slavery organization, i dont know where you got indoctrinated from but you need to go read a little history the overwhelming majority believed all humans had the same rights, and not all states practiced slavery. It was the beginning in the fight for freedom. dont need to keep anything on the down low, the govt has no right telling any one what they can or cant put into their body.
 
[quote name='solid snake']Actually many believed slavery was wrong and Ben Franklin was the one that i believe established the first anti slavery organization, i dont know where you got indoctrinated from but you need to go read a little history the overwhelming majority believed all humans had the same rights, and not all states practiced slavery. It was the beginning in the fight for freedom. dont need to keep anything on the down low, the govt has no right telling any one what they can or cant put into their body.[/QUOTE]
You said something stupid ("We were more free back then!")

He called you out on it (women couldn't vote, and black people could be bought and sold).

Your "counter" is... "People didn't like it?"

What in all of holy horse cocks, brother?
 
[quote name='The Crotch']You said something stupid ("We were more free back then!")

He called you out on it (women couldn't vote, and black people could be bought and sold).

Your "counter" is... "People didn't like it?"

What in all of holy horse cocks, brother?[/QUOTE]

no there were free black people,Ben Franklin helped see to that not all states practiced slavery and people recognized it as wrong even then and changed it. we were, we all had alot more liberty to put what we wanted into our bodies with out govt. in between us, we stood up to authority that tried to tell us we couldn't own certian weapons and even fought for our right to keep them. if you were black or female back then you'd still have more liberty then you do now.
The people would've fukd some one up if a a guy would've started molesting your children to board a ship like our tsa dose with the airways.
Our right to do with our bodies as we want and right to keep arms was stood for, we ddint have homeland securtiy spying on colonists back then either.

there were also blacks that fought in the revolution, so ...
 
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[quote name='nasum']Also:
"Where consent isn’t freely given, forcible rape is lawful"
Probably the most poorly written sentence ever. Id even be stunned if Rush made that drastic of a leap in logic and he can somehow or another go from banana's to Ronald Reagan and GWB killing Osama bin Laden with his barehands while landing that jet on the aircraft carrier and someone was playing dulcet tones on a piano nearby.

Also, also:
Say what you will about the war on drugs and all that, but they had crack in the house, they're breaking the law, why are we complaining that they got caught?[/QUOTE]

Because you have the right to remain secure in houses ,papers and effects from unreasonable search and seizure unless a warrant is issued by oath or affirmation.
meaning even if you know you have illegal things in your house its no ones business unless they have a warrant. This is important that you need to learn and read the bill of rights, you live int he land of the free yet have no idea what freedom means, freedom from oppression , from unwarranted searches, having the right to put into your body what you want etc.
Its fine if you choose not to exercise your rights or don't care if the cops, govt screw you with out even spitting on it but at least recognize wrong doing.
 
...

I, The Crotch, do from this day forward relinquish whatever rights I have or am perceived to have as to any "dibs" I have in first reply towards one "solid snake".

Depascal? Vermin? Any of ya's? Please, by all god damn means, go for it. Be heroes.
 
[quote name='solid snake']no there were free black people,Ben Franklin helped see to that not all states practiced slavery and people recognized it as wrong even then and changed it. we were, we all had alot more liberty to put what we wanted into our bodies with out govt. in between us, we stood up to authority that tried to tell us we couldn't own certian weapons and even fought for our right to keep them. if you were black or female back then you'd still have more liberty then you do now.
[/QUOTE]
Please, brother, comprehend the words you are saying.

The 1770s. Slavery was in every single one of the colonies. Women could not vote.

Because people eventually came to oppose these things, and because these things gradually, over a great god damn period of time improved... things were better then. The 1770s, I mean. Before anything improved, decades and fucking centuries down the line. When slavery was ubiquitous, women couldn't vote, etc. Those are the words you are saying. That is, in the purest essence, what I'm getting from you. Am I in any way misrepresenting this?

whatinallofholyhorsecocks
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Please, brother, comprehend the words you are saying.

The 1770s. Slavery was in every single one of the colonies. Women could not vote.

Because people eventually came to oppose these things, and because these things gradually, over a great god damn period of time improved... things were better then. The 1770s, I mean. Before anything improved, decades and fucking centuries down the line. When slavery was ubiquitous, women couldn't vote, etc. Those are the words you are saying. That is, in the purest essence, what I'm getting from you. Am I in any way misrepresenting this?

whatinallofholyhorsecocks[/QUOTE]


There were many free black men during the 1770's and slacery was not a common practice in all colonies and was looked down upon and in disquest by many, thats why People like ben franklin made institutions and freed slaves. ab Lincoln isn't the messiah he was made out to be many men before him came. I dont really understand what you are trying to say i know there was slavery back then but it wasent a practice we were trying to continue with the revolution ... people like thomas paine and ben franklin make that obviously clear. in other words it wasent just abunch of racist slave owners , blacks and whites a like believed in liberty and many had more than we have today.

Though Paine was not the first, as some have said, to advocate the abolition of slavery in America, he was certainly one of the earliest and most influential. The essay was written in 1774 and published March 8, 1775 when it appeared in the Pennsylvania Journal and the Weekly Advertiser. Just a few weeks later on april 14, 1775 the first anti-slavery society in America was formed in Philadelphia. Paine was a member. - http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/paine_slavery.html

 
So in other words, yes, when slavery was legal throughout the colonies, people were "more free". Because some people didn't like it.

Same goes for women.

Thank you.

differentlycolouredcopiedtexthere
 
i am speaking on the effects of govt tyranny and interferrance in all our lives as to how far removed from the ideals of that day we are
 
[quote name='solid snake']i am speaking on the effects of govt tyranny and interferrance in all our lives as to how far removed from the ideals of that day we are[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAH...you mean if you were a rich white guy right? Not that it's changed today, but it was anything BUT free for anyone that wasn't a white guy period. Where the fuck did you go to school kid? Do they have lead in the water or something?
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']That's not a new precedent though.

There 7 current precedents when warrantless searches can be done.

Now I'm not saying these exceptions are ideal or that I agree with them etc. Just that the court ruling isn't really news as it's just enforcing existing precedent as that situation does fit clearly within the current exigent circumstances precedent. So it's not a further erosion of the 4th amendment.[/QUOTE]

Well now there may be an 8th. The Indiana Supreme Court ruled (3-2) that even if police illegally enter your house, you cannot resist. So basically, they can barge in and your only remedy is to address it via civil court *after* they've done whatever they wished in your house.

Perhaps they wouldn't be able to convict you with any evidence found in the house. But that they could obtain it in the first place, illegally, would put you at risk/expense for defending yourself against something that the police should have had no access to in the first place. This is more of a threat to the 4th amendment, imo, than what the OP linked.

I'm sure this will make it up to SCotUS. Wonder if they'll take it up (they should).
 
I'm a little surprised that this has made such big news. Communities with mostly people of color have been dealing with bullshit like this for years. Hell, I think I've only met 1 black man that was never pulled over for dwb(driving while black). dmaul is right though, this is pretty "standard." It's not "new" erosion; it's already been eroded for certain people.
 
[quote name='dohdough']I'm a little surprised that this has made such big news. Communities with mostly people of color have been dealing with bullshit like this for years. Hell, I think I've only met 1 black man that was never pulled over for dwb(driving while black). dmaul is right though, this is pretty "standard." It's not "new" erosion; it's already been eroded for certain people.[/QUOTE]

I agree. The War On Drugs is a War On Minorities. With the Supreme Court ruling, it made for a good opportunity to bring it up.

hostyl:

Good find. I was about to post that myself.
 
[quote name='dohdough']I'm a little surprised that this has made such big news. Communities with mostly people of color have been dealing with bullshit like this for years. Hell, I think I've only met 1 black man that was never pulled over for dwb(driving while black). dmaul is right though, this is pretty "standard." It's not "new" erosion; it's already been eroded for certain people.[/QUOTE]
Why hasent any one done anything about it? we keep voting for the same fucked up politriks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIrmyfXufrc

VOTE RON PAUL
 
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[quote name='solid snake']Why hasent any one done anything about it? we keep voting for the same fucked up politriks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIrmyfXufrc

VOTE RON PAUL[/QUOTE]

If you really cared, you wouldn't be a teabagging moron. Its a direct result of right-wing policies that you support. You think that ending the war on drugs will stop institutional racism like Paul suggests? No. What he proposes would allow rampant discrimination worse then what we have now. The civil rights act of 1964 was less about eating at white establishments and more about access to political and economic enfranchisment of which they were actively denied. The "free market" didn't put those institutions under because THERE WAS NO ACCESS TO CAPITAL.

Now that I already answered your next question, I can't wait to see your next post...not really.
 
[quote name='hostyl1']Well now there may be an 8th. The Indiana Supreme Court ruled (3-2) that even if police illegally enter your house, you cannot resist. So basically, they can barge in and your only remedy is to address it via civil court *after* they've done whatever they wished in your house.[/QUOTE]

The alternative is to encourage people to violently resist police entry into their home when they subjectively believe it's illegal. Or, in other words, irrespective of whether police entry actually is legal or not. Are you going to feel the same way when someone beats up a cop serving a legal search warrant because they thought the cop was violating their rights? How about when the search is illegal solely because of a defect that the police had no control over (e.g. the magistrate who issued the warrant wasn't neutral and detached)? Still gonna be "too bad Officer, you get your brains beat in"? Drawing the line for a "self-defense" right at whether the search is illegal seems pretty silly to me in that light, particularly when any victims who might exist will have a pretty hefty civil rights claim against the city/county/whatever.

Regardless, it's a matter of state law. If you don't like it, move to Oregon. Here you have the right to resist an arrest you think is unlawful.

[quote name='hostyl1']Perhaps they wouldn't be able to convict you with any evidence found in the house. But that they could obtain it in the first place, illegally, would put you at risk/expense for defending yourself against something that the police should have had no access to in the first place. This is more of a threat to the 4th amendment, imo, than what the OP linked.[/QUOTE]

If you're keeping evidence of illegal conduct in your home you've already assumed the risk of having to defend yourself in court. Besides, if the police "shouldn't have had access to it" because they couldn't have seized it without violating your rights, it'll be suppressed. If you think that isn't good enough, or the police are just trumping up charges, then your real problem is with systemic corruption in law enforcement and not the erosion of the Fourth Amendment.
 
[quote name='dohdough']If you really cared, you wouldn't be a teabagging moron. Its a direct result of right-wing policies that you support. You think that ending the war on drugs will stop institutional racism like Paul suggests? No. What he proposes would allow rampant discrimination worse then what we have now. The civil rights act of 1964 was less about eating at white establishments and more about access to political and economic enfranchisment of which they were actively denied. The "free market" didn't put those institutions under because THERE WAS NO ACCESS TO CAPITAL.

Now that I already answered your next question, I can't wait to see your next post...not really.[/QUOTE]

You assume too much and it seems youve been indoctrinated, its ok though i get called a anarchist, a leftist a tea bagger from all different people.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']The alternative is to encourage people to violently resist police entry into their home when they subjectively believe it's illegal. Or, in other words, irrespective of whether police entry actually is legal or not. Are you going to feel the same way when someone beats up a cop serving a legal search warrant because they thought the cop was violating their rights? How about when the search is illegal solely because of a defect that the police had no control over (e.g. the magistrate who issued the warrant wasn't neutral and detached)? Still gonna be "too bad Officer, you get your brains beat in"? Drawing the line for a "self-defense" right at whether the search is illegal seems pretty silly to me in that light, particularly when any victims who might exist will have a pretty hefty civil rights claim against the city/county/whatever.[/quote]

We already have laws on the books to deal with assaulting an officer. That is well established. What I'm talking about is that simply standing in front of a doorway, impeding illegal search of your home is also covered by this ruling. Imagine this, police kick down your front door without probable cause/warrant/etc. demand access to your bedroom. You simply standing in front of the door asserting that the police have no right to invade your space is, under this ruling, illegal. That's bull-roar!

Regardless, it's a matter of state law. If you don't like it, move to Oregon. Here you have the right to resist an arrest you think is unlawful.

Praise Jesus I no longer live in Indiana. But this isnt a states right issue. This is a 4th amendment issue.


If you're keeping evidence of illegal conduct in your home you've already assumed the risk of having to defend yourself in court. Besides, if the police "shouldn't have had access to it" because they couldn't have seized it without violating your rights, it'll be suppressed. If you think that isn't good enough, or the police are just trumping up charges, then your real problem is with systemic corruption in law enforcement and not the erosion of the Fourth Amendment.

Just because it may or may not be used in a criminal case, does not mean that anything seized might not result in personal/professional injury. Imagine you're into an 'unconventional' hobby. Not illegal, but something you choose to keep private (as is your right). The police can illegally seize evidence of it and the mere mention of it could ruin you personally/professionally even if you are free of criminal charges.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

An illegal entry to the home violates the right to be "secure". Continuing through the house, above the protest of the home owner violates the right "against unreasonable search" and the ability to traverse the entirety of the home violates the requirement of "particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized".

You are correct, this is not an "erosion" of 4th amendment rights. It is a complete DISMANTLING of said 4th Amendment!
 
[quote name='solid snake']You assume too much and it seems youve been indoctrinated[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='dohdough'] dmaul is right though, this is pretty "standard." It's not "new" erosion; it's already been eroded for certain people.[/QUOTE]

Well the exceptions get applied disproportionately on minorities in the drug war for sure.

But they do hit everyone. For instance, the same exigent circumstances exception has been used in white color crime cases when evidence was being shredded etc.

So the exceptions are applicable to all types of crime and offenders. Just due to the nature of the war on drugs, a huge chunk of police searches are looking for guns and drugs in inner city areas that are predominantly minority.

So they bear the brunt of those policies, along with any other policies applicable to the pointless war on drugs.


[quote name='hostyl1']Well now there may be an 8th. The Indiana Supreme Court ruled (3-2) that even if police illegally enter your house, you cannot resist. So basically, they can barge in and your only remedy is to address it via civil court *after* they've done whatever they wished in your house.
[/QUOTE]

No, that's not an 8th exception. From skimming, it's just saying people can't physically resist the police.

If it ended up not fitting in one of those 7 existing exceptions, then they should be able to get the evidence thrown out in court in any criminal trial via the exclusionary rule. As well as being able to sue.

Those 7 exceptions are all things where police can do an search without a warrant and still have evidence permissible in court. That Indiana case is saying that the evidence is automatically permissible--if they don't have a warrant the prosecution would have to show it fit under one of those 7 exceptions.

It's just saying citizens can't forcibly resist, which isn't unreasonable IMO. Though it doesn't seem necessary given I'm sure the state already had laws abut assaulting an officer and not obeying orders from a law enforcement officer etc.

It's also worth noting I suppose, that there are also two exemptions to the exclusionary rule where even if the warrantless search didn't fit within one of the 7 exceptions the evidence can still be ruled permissible in court.

1. The Good Faith rule--if the prosecution can show the cops acted in good faith (i..e they had a warrant) but it wasn't valid because of some technicality (i.e. there wasn't clear probable cause at the time the judge issued the warrant) the evidence can be used.

2. The Inevitable Discovery Rule--if the prosecution could have shown the police would have inevitably found the evidence by other means beside the illegal search, it can still be used. For instance, some officers did an illegal search, but they didn't know the undercover unit had the house staked out and was on the verge of getting a warrant.

But those are both hard cases for the state to make most of the time.
 
[quote name='solid snake'] if you were black or female back then you'd still have more liberty then you do now.[/QUOTE]

Quoted for posterity...

I fail to see how not having a vote is more free that today. If we live in a Republic, voting is one of the most important aspects of being free.

Either way, I don't think there's anything to be gained from "debating" with you.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Quoted for posterity...

I fail to see how not having a vote is more free that today. If we live in a Republic, voting is one of the most important aspects of being free.

Either way, I don't think there's anything to be gained from "debating" with you.[/QUOTE]

While I disagree with the original statement, I don't think voting is the best counter-example to use. A woman's vote in 1800 is probably about as effective as anyone's vote today - at least as far as national politics go.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']While I disagree with the original statement, I don't think voting is the best counter-example to use. A woman's vote in 1800 is probably about as effective as anyone's vote today - at least as far as national politics go.[/QUOTE]

Women couldn't vote until 1920 but I think I get your point.

And I didn't say it was the most important thing on purpose. Our vote doesn't mean much but at least we can all say we have an equal voice. Also, voting doesn't just happen on a national level. A single vote on the local level can still be very important.
 
dmaul is right.*

* although if I remember correctly (haven't studied this in a long time) the search related to the routine automobile stop can only be done in the surrounding area of the defendant (for police protection - not for finding evidence of a crime). So the trunk is off limits and so is a locked glove compartment. Of course the cops won't tell you this and when they demand you get out of the car so they can search the whole thing and you do so, congratulations, you are now in the realm of a "consensual search".
 
[quote name='Javery']dmaul is right.*

* although if I remember correctly (haven't studied this in a long time) the search related to the routine automobile stop can only be done in the surrounding area of the defendant (for police protection - not for finding evidence of a crime). So the trunk is off limits and so is a locked glove compartment. Of course the cops won't tell you this and when they demand you get out of the car so they can search the whole thing and you do so, congratulations, you are now in the realm of a "consensual search".[/QUOTE]

The only time they can search the whole thing (trunk etc.) without getting consent from the driver (or a warrant obviously), is if they have clear probable cause that they'll find evidence of a specific crime in the search. That's where the general automobile exception comes in.

So that's a tough case for the police to make to make. If the person is drunk or they saw drugs or a gun in the car etc., then that general automobile exception doesn't apply as the driver is already being arrested and then they can search the whole car without a warrant due to the "search incident to a lawful arrest" exception. So the general automobile exception probably isn't used all that often in practice.

Most car searches fall under the "consent" exception as many people don't know their rights and don't know that they can say no when asked and that there's no legal implications from saying. Or even if they do they just are afraid to say no. And of course their are problems with cops pressuring people to consent. That should invalidate the search (consent can't be coerced), but that's going to be the word of the cop vs. the defendant when it comes to court of course.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Women couldn't vote until 1920 but I think I get your point.

And I didn't say it was the most important thing on purpose. Our vote doesn't mean much but at least we can all say we have an equal voice. Also, voting doesn't just happen on a national level. A single vote on the local level can still be very important.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I used the 1800 date for a reason. It was a snippy comment about our current system for electing federal officials and making real change in Washington. :D
 
[quote name='depascal22']Quoted for posterity...

I fail to see how not having a vote is more free that today. If we live in a Republic, voting is one of the most important aspects of being free.

Either way, I don't think there's anything to be gained from "debating" with you.[/QUOTE]

We had more liberty with our own bodies, personal freedom meaning you were aloud to take calculated risks, now we live in a nanny state. back then at least you could smoke pot...
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The only time they can search the whole thing (trunk etc.) without getting consent from the driver (or a warrant obviously), is if they have clear probable cause that they'll find evidence of a specific crime in the search. That's where the general automobile exception comes in.

So that's a tough case for the police to make to make. If the person is drunk or they saw drugs or a gun in the car etc., then that general automobile exception doesn't apply as the driver is already being arrested and then they can search the whole car without a warrant due to the "search incident to a lawful arrest" exception. So the general automobile exception probably isn't used all that often in practice..[/QUOTE]

The automobile exception extends to any part of the car (including containers, like the trunk, regardless of who owns them) that the probable cause the police have will justify. So, e.g., if they only have probable cause to look for a rifle, they probably can't search the glove compartment. Also, search incident to arrest in the vehicle context is generally limited by Arizona v. Gant to include only areas a suspect can actually reach, and then only if he hasn't already been restrained. Likewise, if the cops are just going to impound (and, thus, inventory) the car anyway, they can probably just argue inevitability even if the stuff in the car is illegally seized. But you're right that people will probably consent without thinking.

[quote name='hostyl1']Just because it may or may not be used in a criminal case, does not mean that anything seized might not result in personal/professional injury. Imagine you're into an 'unconventional' hobby. Not illegal, but something you choose to keep private (as is your right). The police can illegally seize evidence of it and the mere mention of it could ruin you personally/professionally even if you are free of criminal charges.[/QUOTE]

Again, you've assumed the risk of whatever stigma your "unconventional" activities might bring about. If your actual substantive rights are violated, there are mechanisms for you to vindicate them. The only real issue behind that decision is whether it's good policy to encourage people to resist police trying to search their homes, regardless of the legality of those searches. It doesn't seem unreasonable to say that discouraging violence is a good idea.
 
I love how many constitutional scholars have joined CAG. I really don't feel the need to argue with anyone because I find it would be pointless, but I have a question to ask. If someone is in the apartment screaming for help do they have to get a search warrant to enter?

I do love the fact that they blogger compares potheads getting caught to someone being being raped:roll:

Also Carrol Doctrine does not apply to incident after arrest anymore because of a Supreme Court ruling I believe early last year or late '09. If someone is removed from a vehicle and arrested the Supreme Court ruled the car is no longer in the vicinity of the suspect. Therefore does not fall under search incident to arrest.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-542.ZO.html

Latest ruling on search incident to arrest^^
 
[quote name='solid snake']We had more liberty with our own bodies, personal freedom meaning you were aloud to take calculated risks, now we live in a nanny state. back then at least you could smoke pot...[/QUOTE]

yeah those were great times... could settle our differences with a duel at 15 paces... and when you got shot in the arm... they'd amputate it... stupid government creating manslaughter laws, infringing on our rights.
 
[quote name='Afflicted']yeah those were great times... could settle our differences with a duel at 15 paces... and when you got shot in the arm... they'd amputate it... stupid government creating manslaughter laws, infringing on our rights.[/QUOTE]
....coke had coke in it.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']The automobile exception extends to any part of the car (including containers, like the trunk, regardless of who owns them) that the probable cause the police have will justify. So, e.g., if they only have probable cause to look for a rifle, they probably can't search the glove compartment.
[/quote]

Yep. That's 100% correct as I understand it.

Also, search incident to arrest in the vehicle context is generally limited by Arizona v. Gant to include only areas a suspect can actually reach, and then only if he hasn't already been restrained.

Yep. From my understanding the general term used is that a search incident to a lawful arrest is limited to the "immediate vicinity" around the arrest. So within reach would apply to that, but maybe it's not quite that limited? Though it sounds like it has gotten narrowed down more again from the info provided by silentevil.

Likewise, if the cops are just going to impound (and, thus, inventory) the car anyway, they can probably just argue inevitability even if the stuff in the car is illegally seized. But you're right that people will probably consent without thinking.

Well, if they're impounding the car, then they have time to get a warrant if they can't get consent.

The automobile exception is in place because cars are mobile and can disappear. If they're impounding the car, that goes way, so the cops would be stupid to do a warrantless search if they don't get consent vs. just impounding it, getting a warrant and then searching it.


[quote name='silentevil']I love how many constitutional scholars have joined CAG. I really don't feel the need to argue with anyone because I find it would be pointless, but I have a question to ask. If someone is in the apartment screaming for help do they have to get a search warrant to enter?[/quote]

I'm far from a constitutional scholar! I just have a basic knowledge of these things from teaching them in my criminal justice courses. But really no more than a textbook level of knowledge. :D

As for that screaming for help circumstance--that should fit under the "exigent circumstances" exception as they have probable cause to believe that someone is in serious danger if they wait to get a warrant.

[quote name='silentevil']
Also Carrol Doctrine does not apply to incident after arrest anymore because of a Supreme Court ruling I believe early last year or late '09. If someone is removed from a vehicle and arrested the Supreme Court ruled the car is no longer in the vicinity of the suspect. Therefore does not fall under search incident to arrest.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-542.ZO.html

Latest ruling on search incident to arrest^^[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link. I'll have to update my lecture on searches a bit.
 
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Yes and destruction of evidence falls under exigent circumstances. The only reason I bothered using that example is the comparison to rape in the original blog.

My constitutional scholar remark is for all the people who post things with no knowledge.

As far as inventories of vehicles goes they ARE NOT searches. They are property inventories and can and are easily challenged by defense lawyers. This is because some leos fail to inventory every car. If this is the case a lot of lawyers will argue the impounding was just a way to gain access to the car. Leos have to do paperwork when they do inventories so it is easily verifiable. If a leo is does this than any evidence found will fall under the fruits of the poisonous tree doctrine. If this happens that officer will have his ass chewed out by his CO.


Link to the case being discussed here.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-1272.pdf

My suggestion to anyone in college is to take a criminology or criminal law course. You won't know as much as someone who majors in it but you'll still know more than the lay person.
 
[quote name='silentevil']Yes and destruction of evidence falls under exigent circumstances. [/QUOTE]

Yep. Like I said earlier, the case the OP posted isn't news as it's just applying the existing exigent circumstances clause to a case where there was clearly probable cause to suspect destruction of evidence.
 
[quote name='Afflicted']yeah those were great times... could settle our differences with a duel at 15 paces... and when you got shot in the arm... they'd amputate it... stupid government creating manslaughter laws, infringing on our rights.[/QUOTE]
If you both consent to a duel i think it should be legal, why not?

/HEll setup a dueling arena so we can end the drive bys
 
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