James Webb Senator from Virginia(D): Diversity and the Myth of White Privilege

dohdough

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703724104575379630952309408.html
The NAACP believes the tea party is racist. The tea party believes the NAACP is racist. And Pat Buchanan got into trouble recently by pointing out that if Elena Kagan is confirmed to the Supreme Court, there will not be a single Protestant Justice, although Protestants make up half the U.S. population and dominated the court for generations.

Forty years ago, as the United States experienced the civil rights movement, the supposed monolith of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant dominance served as the whipping post for almost every debate about power and status in America. After a full generation of such debate, WASP elites have fallen by the wayside and a plethora of government-enforced diversity policies have marginalized many white workers. The time has come to cease the false arguments and allow every American the benefit of a fair chance at the future.

I have dedicated my political career to bringing fairness to America's economic system and to our work force, regardless of what people look like or where they may worship. Unfortunately, present-day diversity programs work against that notion, having expanded so far beyond their original purpose that they now favor anyone who does not happen to be white.

In an odd historical twist that all Americans see but few can understand, many programs allow recently arrived immigrants to move ahead of similarly situated whites whose families have been in the country for generations. These programs have damaged racial harmony. And the more they have grown, the less they have actually helped African-Americans, the intended beneficiaries of affirmative action as it was originally conceived.

How so?

Lyndon Johnson's initial program for affirmative action was based on the 13th Amendment and on the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which authorized the federal government to take actions in order to eliminate "the badges of slavery." Affirmative action was designed to recognize the uniquely difficult journey of African-Americans. This policy was justifiable and understandable, even to those who came from white cultural groups that had also suffered in socio-economic terms from the Civil War and its aftermath.

The injustices endured by black Americans at the hands of their own government have no parallel in our history, not only during the period of slavery but also in the Jim Crow era that followed. But the extrapolation of this logic to all "people of color"—especially since 1965, when new immigration laws dramatically altered the demographic makeup of the U.S.—moved affirmative action away from remediation and toward discrimination, this time against whites. It has also lessened the focus on assisting African-Americans, who despite a veneer of successful people at the very top still experience high rates of poverty, drug abuse, incarceration and family breakup.

Those who came to this country in recent decades from Asia, Latin America and Africa did not suffer discrimination from our government, and in fact have frequently been the beneficiaries of special government programs. The same cannot be said of many hard-working white Americans, including those whose roots in America go back more than 200 years.

Contrary to assumptions in the law, white America is hardly a monolith. And the journey of white American cultures is so diverse (yes) that one strains to find the logic that could lump them together for the purpose of public policy.

The clearest example of today's misguided policies comes from examining the history of the American South.

The old South was a three-tiered society, with blacks and hard-put whites both dominated by white elites who manipulated racial tensions in order to retain power. At the height of slavery, in 1860, less than 5% of whites in the South owned slaves. The eminent black historian John Hope Franklin wrote that "fully three-fourths of the white people in the South had neither slaves nor an immediate economic interest in the maintenance of slavery."

The Civil War devastated the South, in human and economic terms. And from post-Civil War Reconstruction to the beginning of World War II, the region was a ravaged place, affecting black and white alike.

In 1938, President Franklin Roosevelt created a national commission to study what he termed "the long and ironic history of the despoiling of this truly American section." At that time, most industries in the South were owned by companies outside the region. Of the South's 1.8 million sharecroppers, 1.2 million were white (a mirror of the population, which was 71% white). The illiteracy rate was five times that of the North-Central states and more than twice that of New England and the Middle Atlantic (despite the waves of European immigrants then flowing to those regions). The total endowments of all the colleges and universities in the South were less than the endowments of Harvard and Yale alone. The average schoolchild in the South had $25 a year spent on his or her education, compared to $141 for children in New York.

Generations of such deficiencies do not disappear overnight, and they affect the momentum of a culture. In 1974, a National Opinion Research Center (NORC) study of white ethnic groups showed that white Baptists nationwide averaged only 10.7 years of education, a level almost identical to blacks' average of 10.6 years, and well below that of most other white groups. A recent NORC Social Survey of white adults born after World War II showed that in the years 1980-2000, only 18.4% of white Baptists and 21.8% of Irish Protestants—the principal ethnic group that settled the South—had obtained college degrees, compared to a national average of 30.1%, a Jewish average of 73.3%, and an average among those of Chinese and Indian descent of 61.9%.

Policy makers ignored such disparities within America's white cultures when, in advancing minority diversity programs, they treated whites as a fungible monolith. Also lost on these policy makers were the differences in economic and educational attainment among nonwhite cultures. Thus nonwhite groups received special consideration in a wide variety of areas including business startups, academic admissions, job promotions and lucrative government contracts.


Where should we go from here? Beyond our continuing obligation to assist those African-Americans still in need, government-directed diversity programs should end.

Nondiscrimination laws should be applied equally among all citizens, including those who happen to be white. The need for inclusiveness in our society is undeniable and irreversible, both in our markets and in our communities. Our government should be in the business of enabling opportunity for all, not in picking winners. It can do so by ensuring that artificial distinctions such as race do not determine outcomes.

Memo to my fellow politicians: Drop the Procrustean policies and allow harmony to invade the public mindset. Fairness will happen, and bitterness will fade away.

So Jim Webb thinks that 46 years after the Civil Rights Act was signed, non-whites have had enough aid from the government and that whites don't get enough, as well as a wave of "reverse racism"(racism going the wrong way lolz) overtaking the country. I guess 200+ years of overt systematic oppression and violence was somehow solved in the last 46 years. fuck me :wall:

Now I wonder what his supporters will say now, especially the Asian ones in which his Vietnamese wife used her ethnicity to get and mobilize minorities because his Republican opponent did this to one of his campaign volunteers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7gq7GQ71c.
 
He's right and I agree with a lot of this. Today, Affirmative action is about bringing colored people into positions they wouldn't get if they were white instead of helping people, regardless of race, pay for the opportunity they've worked to create. Additionally, its not just about whites getting unfair treatment- Asians frequently get the shaft when applying to schools.

As for dohdough's response, it isn't about trying to apologize or make amends for something that happened generations ago. The USA doesn't need to apologize for anything we've ever done (Listen up Obama). We are the greatest nation to ever exist. Read a history book. Practically every country has some sort of blemish and every race has been interned in slavery. Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.

However even if one wanted to make reparations to a specific race, Hispanics weren't ever oppressed in the US. Why should greater accommodations be made for them over any other group?

Justice is blind.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']How dare he say what most Americans think?

Absolutely ridiculous![/QUOTE]

I agree, most, like 99.99% of whites in the US don't believe that white privilege exists and that people of color are getting too much help from the government. Funny how white people didn't say anything about it when the GI Bill just about created the white middle-class and FHA allowed them to get low interest loans in which non-whites were effectively barred. Too bad it only matters when it's non-whites benefiting.:roll:
 
[quote name='tivo']He's right and I agree with a lot of this. Today, Affirmative action is about bringing colored people into positions they wouldn't get if they were white instead of helping people, regardless of race, pay for the opportunity they've worked to create. Additionally, its not just about whites getting unfair treatment- Asians frequently get the shaft when applying to schools.

As for dohdough's response, it isn't about trying to apologize or make amends for something that happened generations ago. The USA doesn't need to apologize for anything we've ever done (Listen up Obama). We are the greatest nation to ever exist. Read a history book. Practically every country has some sort of blemish and every race has been interned in slavery. Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.

However even if one wanted to make reparations to a specific race, Hispanics weren't ever oppressed in the US. Why should greater accommodations be made for them over any other group?

Justice is blind.[/QUOTE]

Damn you.

That post is going to have myke's sphincter creating diamonds again. Then, at some point, I'll be forced to bring up American Indians and double standards in not only treatment, but the national racial give-a-shit scale.

It's actually more interesting, to me, to discuss the huge disparity in how the gov and media treats the various non-whites differently from each other.
 
[quote name='tivo']He's right and I agree with a lot of this. Today, Affirmative action is about bringing colored people into positions they wouldn't get if they were white instead of helping people, regardless of race, pay for the opportunity they've worked to create. Additionally, its not just about whites getting unfair treatment- Asians frequently get the shaft when applying to schools.[/QUOTE]
"Colored people?" Oh man, I don't know where to begin with that. Either way, for every "token" black appointment, how many white people got positions due to networking, socio-economic status, and social capital eventhough they didn't score as high? And you can't also jusdge competency on scores alone when learning testing techniques can skew your score above actual knowledge on any standardized test? Meritocracy has nothing to do with that, and even then, we don't live in one.

Although, I will agree that Asians get shafted, but that stems from more of an immigration issue.

As for dohdough's response, it isn't about trying to apologize or make amends for something that happened generations ago. The USA doesn't need to apologize for anything we've ever done (Listen up Obama). We are the greatest nation to ever exist. Read a history book. Practically every country has some sort of blemish and every race has been interned in slavery. Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.
Wow, straight from the RACIST's handbook: "if it wasn't for the white man, black people would still be living like savages in Africa and they should be thankful for that. Especially since Europe and the US are complicit in keeping the entire continent of Africa in it's current state of poverty."

So you're saying that black people should be thanking the US for slavery? That's beyond reprehensible.

However even if one wanted to make reparations to a specific race, Hispanics weren't ever oppressed in the US. Why should greater accommodations be made for them over any other group?
Ummm...they are oppressed and discriminated against.

Justice is blind.
That's why black and Latino men are pulled over four times as much as white people when white people are four times as likely to have drugs or parapernalia when searched. This is also why black men recieve harsher sentencing than white males. Sounds blind to me!
 
[quote name='tivo']Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.

[/QUOTE]

Huh?
 
[quote name='tivo']He's right and I agree with a lot of this. Today, Affirmative action is about bringing colored people into positions they wouldn't get if they were white instead of helping people, regardless of race, pay for the opportunity they've worked to create. Additionally, its not just about whites getting unfair treatment- Asians frequently get the shaft when applying to schools.

As for dohdough's response, it isn't about trying to apologize or make amends for something that happened generations ago. The USA doesn't need to apologize for anything we've ever done (Listen up Obama). We are the greatest nation to ever exist. Read a history book. Practically every country has some sort of blemish and every race has been interned in slavery. Calls this what you may, but I would say that Blacks actually benefited from the slavery. Comparing the current lives of many African Americans to Africans, one can see that the former live in much better conditions with greater freedoms and opportunities.

However even if one wanted to make reparations to a specific race, Hispanics weren't ever oppressed in the US. Why should greater accommodations be made for them over any other group?

Justice is blind.[/QUOTE]

I am wondering what your definition of oppression is.

Mexican's were never oppressed? What happened to the California Gold Rush Lynchings, the Texas Rangers abuse, the immigration raids during the depression (not illegal immigrants), Post ww2 discrimination (systematic oppression of Zoot Suiters) and segregation in schools.
 
[quote name='dohdough']http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703724104575379630952309408.html


So Jim Webb thinks that 46 years after the Civil Rights Act was signed, non-whites have had enough aid from the government and that whites don't get enough, as well as a wave of "reverse racism"(racism going the wrong way lolz) overtaking the country. I guess 200+ years of overt systematic oppression and violence was somehow solved in the last 46 years. fuck me :wall:

Now I wonder what his supporters will say now, especially the Asian ones in which his Vietnamese wife used her ethnicity to get and mobilize minorities because his Republican opponent did this to one of his campaign volunteers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7gq7GQ71c.[/QUOTE]

You don't know VA politics. And trust me, asian people will not care. They don't get any breaks to begin with.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']He is saying Africa is a shithole. It is. Exploitation rarely improves one's situation.[/QUOTE]

Still, saying that people are better off because they were enslaved....just wow.
 
^^ I exaggerated there. some discrimination to mexicans but taking the entire group of Hispanics as a whole, their "hardships" don't match up with the more popular and violent events in history.

the bottom line is that most Americans believe that AA and similar plans need to be reoriented based on the current times.

Edit:
Some of you have taken offense to my claim that the black race benefited from American slavery. It might not sound right but it is. Its like how today, big game in Africa have actually benefited from western hunting. Sounds impossible but its true. Regardless, my main point is that we don't need to dwell on the past anymore. You don't see the japanesse make reparations for the millions they killed or any other country. We just need to move on and ensure the government doesn't produce preferential treatment towards any races because 1) thats not their role or duty and 2) it would be impossible to do it fairly.
 
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I do think AA could probably be re-oriented, though it would be complex.

The real disadvantage (not that outright racial discrimination is gone by any means) today is in the form of poverty, of growing up in crime plagued inner-city communities with inferior public school systems etc. Though in reality those areas are heavily black and Hispanic, so re-orientation would change that much in who is targeted with benefits in terms of getting into colleges etc.

I guess those growing up in poor rural areas could get the benefits too--but that's a far cry from the inner city. I grew up in a very poor rural count. The schools systems was pretty good, teaching jobs were some of the best and hardest to get in the county, class sizes were small since it was low population, very, very little to worry (or nothing) about in the way of crime, drugs, gangs etc. So not nearly the same level of disadvantage as urban poor face.

But I guess at the least it would stop middle and upper class minorities from getting benefits when they didn't grow up in disadvantage etc., but I doubt that would do much to stop the bitching about AA as people would still complain about the poor getting benefits etc.
 
Yeah tivo, I think Mark Williams was expelled from the Tea Party Express for expressing sentiments like yours. You should stick with your convictions and keep arguing that slavery was good for black people.

By the way, where are you getting the idea the stats that big game benefited from being killed?
 
Reverse racism is a term I hate.
It should be just plain racism.

Also, all this "hurr but slavery was so bad" stuff needs to stop. My great great great great great great great grandfather was killed in the revolutionary war, why am I not getting money for his loss?

Your ancestor's hardships shouldn't make you eligible for anything. Just be glad they're hardships aren't yours, and go on with it.
 
[quote name='IRHari']By the way, where are you getting the idea the stats that big game benefited from being killed?[/QUOTE]

duh. he already answered your question.

[quote name='tivo']Read a history book.[/QUOTE]

see?

I'm beginning to think that, to borrow the parlance of our renaissance man tivo, "colored people" have been doing well for themselves, largely at the expense of hard-working white Americans. They get a leg up they don't deserve. It harms our pure, unvarnished meritocracy that we've established in the US.

As evidence, I present the following to you:
a) ACORN
b) Van Jones
c) Shirley Sherrod

All three of them have had their lives and careers ruined since the Kenyan took office. The only three victims of major scandals have been African-American. Since discrimination doesn't occur in the United States anymore (unless you count reverse racism against good, honest, hard-working white folks), we can't point to racism as being the catalyst behind 100% of the political assassinations under Obama being black. It's not racist, because...well, because the Civil Rights Act was a whole 46 years ago. We didn't even text message each other then, that's how long ago it was.

So it's not racism. The only alternative explanation is that "colored people" are overly concentrated in positions of power. They must be everywhere in Washington, thanks to Affirmative Action, I'm sure. Think about it. Justice is blind, right? It must be, since tivo made that claim, and he's read a history book. So there.

So justice is blind, blacks aren't victims of patterned and widespread systemic discrimination, yet all of these political victims have been black persons or organizations.

It necessarily follows, then, that it's because Affirmative Action has taken all the white jobs in Washington and handed them over to "colored people" who didn't deserve it. That's the only way, given random chance and selection (again, it's not racism, so it must be random), all three victims were "colored."

Alternately, I was followed in a store about two weeks ago by an employee - clearly making a hamfisted attempt to keep an eye on me to prevent shoplifting. So I guess that means racism is over, yes?
 
[quote name='sandaz93']is anybody against economic affirmative action? For example, if 2 candidates were equally, the poorer one would get hired/into college. A friend was talking to me about it...seemed interesting.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that any system can and will be gamed. I can think that this would backfire with people going to insane lengths to meet the qualifications for "poor"

It was the irony of my college experience, the one kid on full stipend was the one who had all the extra cash. While we were scraping by on Ramen and oranges because of crushing student loans, any money he earned during the summer went right to useless luxuries like PSX and magic cards. If my other friends had fallen just a little further into the "poor" category, ironically they would have been better off.
 
[quote name='sandaz93']is anybody against economic affirmative action? For example, if 2 candidates were equally, the poorer one would get hired/into college. A friend was talking to me about it...seemed interesting.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but that might end in a white getting shown favoritism over a black. That would be terrible because blacks are genetically disadvantaged, which clearly negates economic positions!

You know, I find it nice how the people who argue for racism against whites are always able to do so when it doesn't affect them. "Hey, I'm not white, so whatever," or "I got mine already, so fuck the rest," right? Classy.

But can I really hate on the racists? Isn't schadenfreude as American as apple pie? It's fun to laugh at white trash because that won't get us in trouble with anyone. After all, they're deserving of their position. Haven't you seen the color of their skin?

Making it an economic issue, after all, would go against the current Democratic plank. And if the ruling Democrats aren't right absolutely 100% of the time, then what will people whose lives consist of being lock-step with their leaders' policies do? Can't have that; would be too much of a shock to the brain. Change is bad, ya know.
 
[quote name='dohdough']
So Jim Webb thinks that 46 years after the Civil Rights Act was signed, non-whites have had enough aid from the government and that whites don't get enough, as well as a wave of "reverse racism"(racism going the wrong way lolz) overtaking the country. I guess 200+ years of overt systematic oppression and violence was somehow solved in the last 46 years. fuck me :wall:
[/QUOTE]

So what you're saying is that if we keep affirmative action around for 154 more years everything is even?

[quote name='mykevermin']As evidence, I present the following to you:
a) ACORN
b) Van Jones
c) Shirley Sherrod

All three of them have had their lives and careers ruined since the Kenyan took office. The only three victims of major scandals have been African-American. Since discrimination doesn't occur in the United States anymore (unless you count reverse racism against good, honest, hard-working white folks), we can't point to racism as being the catalyst behind 100% of the political assassinations under Obama being black. It's not racist, because...well, because the Civil Rights Act was a whole 46 years ago. We didn't even text message each other then, that's how long ago it was.
[/QUOTE]


Um... ACORN was on it's last legs before the scandal... and would have collapsed soon anyway. There were way more issues than just the prostitution ring video.

I also hardly think that Van Jones had his life and career ruined. Because he was doing pretty well for himself before he was appointed to the job in the administration. And having said job for 6 months doesn't exactly fit the definition for career. Not to mention he seems to still be doing pretty well for himself after his resignation.

Seriously find some new and real issues...
 
Affirmative action is shit. Racism is shit.

Stop caring what their skin color is and start caring how dumb they are.

For instance, if you believe in the tea party movement, I don't care if you are black or white. You are an idiot, and fuck you.

If you are a member of PETA, race be damned. fuck you.

If you feel the war in Iraq was called for, race can take a seat over there. fuck you.


and so on
 
[quote name='camoor']You don't know VA politics. And trust me, asian people will not care. They don't get any breaks to begin with.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='SpazX']Yeah and Jim Webb is about as good as you can get in VA...[/QUOTE]

It's not so much my opinion that Asians in Virginia will care and have the pull to do something about it, but I know that there were many community organizations that ended up backing him as well as some national Asian non-profits. I personally feel that Webb was the lesser of two evils and don't like him at all really, but I know that there were some people that were talking up his campaign like it was the fucking rainbow coalition.

Not to say that I don't believe you guys, I do.
 
[quote name='camoor']The problem is that any system can and will be gamed. I can think that this would backfire with people going to insane lengths to meet the qualifications for "poor"

It was the irony of my college experience, the one kid on full stipend was the one who had all the extra cash. While we were scraping by on Ramen and oranges because of crushing student loans, any money he earned during the summer went right to useless luxuries like PSX and magic cards. If my other friends had fallen just a little further into the "poor" category, ironically they would have been better off.[/QUOTE]
Nice anecdote. Considering that I know something about financial aid, a lot actually considering I used to help kids fill out their FAFSA's and I have friends that actually work in Financial Aid depts at a couple major private universities, I see two things going on here.

With your roomate on the full stipend, here are three scenarios that would mostly explain it. The kid's family is so poor that the college gave him a free ride, he applied to a lot of grants and won them, or he recieved a merit scholarship because he performed well in high school.

Now to you and the other roomate that had to eat ramen and oranges, it's most likely that either your families had too much net worth to qualify for federal and state grants, you didn't apply soon enough, or you didn't do well enough in highschool.

Crushing loans sounds a bit disingenuous as federal and state loans are Very low interest compared to private loans. Not to mention that any school with very high tuition that would be crushingly expensive would also have a meal plan with multiple dining halls along with various vendors on and off campus that would allow you to use meal points at them. This was common even when I started college 14 years ago.

Like I said, nice anecdote, but your story doesn't really jive with how financial aid works. These of course, are the most likely scenarios.

[quote name='Afflicted']So what you're saying is that if we keep affirmative action around for 154 more years everything is even?[/QUOTE]
Nice strawman, but no. Now if you gave the same opportunities and preferential treatment that were given to whites, to people of color, well, it wouldn't make it even, but it would help. It's not about getting even, it's about being given a fair chance. Instead of focusing on the one person that is an "affirmative action case"(codeword for black), why don't people look at the countless others that got a pass through connections rather than merit, which happens to be the most common way to get jobs and move up.

Um... ACORN was on it's last legs before the scandal... and would have collapsed soon anyway. There were way more issues than just the prostitution ring video.
Oh really? Seems to me they were doing fine until there were trumped up allegations of voter registration fraud that they had actually reported before the media ran with it.

I also hardly think that Van Jones had his life and career ruined. Because he was doing pretty well for himself before he was appointed to the job in the administration. And having said job for 6 months doesn't exactly fit the definition for career. Not to mention he seems to still be doing pretty well for himself after his resignation.
Right. And the smear campaign somehow will have no effect on his career. I think you have the definition of a job and career mixed up.

Seriously find some new and real issues...
Racism IS a real issue and has a Very REAL effect on people that are victims of it. But I imagine that it must be nice not having to worry about it.
 
[quote name='dohdough'] Now if you gave the same opportunities and preferential treatment that were given to whites, to people of color, well, it wouldn't make it even, but it would help. It's not about getting even, it's about being given a fair chance. [/QUOTE]

How is this comment about being given a fair chance. A fair chance is about being on equal footing. But you say that being on equal footing doesn't make it even.... Seriously? :roll:

[quote name='dohdough'] Right. And the smear campaign somehow will have no effect on his career. I think you have the definition of a job and career mixed up.[/QUOTE]

let's see...
------------------------------------------------
Post-White House activity
In February 2010, Jones became a senior fellow at the Center For American Progress, where he leads their Green Opportunity Initiative "to develop a clearly articulated agenda for expanding investment, innovation, and opportunity through clean energy and environmental restoration".[54] At the same time, he received appoinments at Princeton University, as a distinguished visiting fellow in both the Center for African American Studies and in the Program in Science, Technology and Environmental Policy at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.[55] Jones is also a senior policy advisor at Green For All.[56]
On February 26, 2010, Jones received the NAACP President's Award at the 41st annual NAACP Image Awards.
------------------------------------------------

Looks to me as Van Jones is still in the same career path he was in before his brief stint in the government and I'm sure he's getting paid a lot more than his government wages.

Personally I think you have the definition of career and job mixed up... a career is something you do for a large part of your life... a job is something you do for 6 months... ie: What Van Jones is doing now and before his appointment by Obama is a career.... his 6 months in politics was a job. By what I see... his career is still doing fine. I mean if that's the wrong end of a conservative axe job then where do I sign up for one?
 
[quote name='dohdough']Nice anecdote. Considering that I know something about financial aid, a lot actually considering I used to help kids fill out their FAFSA's and I have friends that actually work in Financial Aid depts at a couple major private universities, I see two things going on here.

With your roomate on the full stipend, here are three scenarios that would mostly explain it. The kid's family is so poor that the college gave him a free ride, he applied to a lot of grants and won them, or he recieved a merit scholarship because he performed well in high school.

Now to you and the other roomate that had to eat ramen and oranges, it's most likely that either your families had too much net worth to qualify for federal and state grants, you didn't apply soon enough, or you didn't do well enough in highschool.

Crushing loans sounds a bit disingenuous as federal and state loans are Very low interest compared to private loans. Not to mention that any school with very high tuition that would be crushingly expensive would also have a meal plan with multiple dining halls along with various vendors on and off campus that would allow you to use meal points at them. This was common even when I started college 14 years ago.

Like I said, nice anecdote, but your story doesn't really jive with how financial aid works. These of course, are the most likely scenarios.[/QUOTE]

Oh wow you helped some kid fill one out and a friend works at a college. Sorry I didn't know you were such a goddamn expert on my life experiences.

His father made furniture, I don't know how much money that makes but it was just small enough to put him in the 'poor' category.

If you want to get technical, I stayed on the meal plan but two of my friends dropped off because of their money issues (of course full stipend man also stayed on). I didn't ask for their finance papers but I could tell these two friends were strapped. The only thing I can remember them buying besides food and cheap liquor was a Flowbee.

We never resented the kid for gaming the system like he did. After all if the state is stupid enough to give you free money, good for you for taking it.

It had nothing to do with affirmative action too if that's what has your panties in a twist. The grants were purely about financial situations.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Considering that I know something about financial aid, a lot actually considering I used to help kids fill out their FAFSA's and I have friends that actually work in Financial Aid depts at a couple major private universities, I see two things going on here.[/QUOTE]
My High school counselor did this too; she had no experience in financial aid. None.
 
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[quote name='dorino']My High school counselor did this too; she had no experience in financial aid. None.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. It's funny how he thinks his anecdotal experience trumps mine.

Also can you fix the quote, I didn't say that, dumdough did.
 
He's right and I agree with a lot of this. Today, Affirmative action is about bringing colored people into positions they wouldn't get if they were white instead of helping people, regardless of race, pay for the opportunity they've worked to create. Additionally, its not just about whites getting unfair treatment- Asians frequently get the shaft when applying to schools.

It ain't easaaaay being white.....it ain't easy bein brooown....all this pressure to be bright....I got children all over town....
 
[quote name='dohdough']Nice strawman, but no. Now if you gave the same opportunities and preferential treatment that were given to whites, to people of color, well, it wouldn't make it even, but it would help. It's not about getting even, it's about being given a fair chance. Instead of focusing on the one person that is an "affirmative action case"(codeword for black), why don't people look at the countless others that got a pass through connections rather than merit, which happens to be the most common way to get jobs and move up. [/QUOTE]

Im curious as to how forcing a company or college to hire or accept a member of a particular race just to meet a quota instead of qualifications and such is better than professional networking?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Im curious as to how forcing a company or college to hire or accept a member of a particular race just to meet a quota instead of qualifications and such is better than professional networking?[/QUOTE]
It isn't.
 
[quote name='Afflicted']How is this comment about being given a fair chance. A fair chance is about being on equal footing. But you say that being on equal footing doesn't make it even.... Seriously? :roll:[/QUOTE]
If you define affirmative action for 154 years relegating white people to the social, political, and economic status of black people, then yes, it would make things "even," but that's not what I'm getting at. Oh, and non-whites actually had no rights for longer than 154 years and if you paid attention in school, you'd know that.

Here's a cartoon to simplify it for you:
concise.png



Until we fix institutional racism as well, using quotas to feign diversity is half-assed and doesn't really fix anything.

We also don't see proportionate racial representation in any area of life whether it's employment, incarceration rates, economically, etc...

let's see...
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Post-White House activity
In February 2010, Jones became a senior fellow at the Center For American Progress, where he leads their Green Opportunity Initiative "to develop a clearly articulated agenda for expanding investment, innovation, and opportunity through clean energy and environmental restoration".[54] At the same time, he received appoinments at Princeton University, as a distinguished visiting fellow in both the Center for African American Studies and in the Program in Science, Technology and Environmental Policy at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.[55] Jones is also a senior policy advisor at Green For All.[56]
On February 26, 2010, Jones received the NAACP President's Award at the 41st annual NAACP Image Awards.
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Looks to me as Van Jones is still in the same career path he was in before his brief stint in the government and I'm sure he's getting paid a lot more than his government wages.

Personally I think you have the definition of career and job mixed up... a career is something you do for a large part of your life... a job is something you do for 6 months... ie: What Van Jones is doing now and before his appointment by Obama is a career.... his 6 months in politics was a job. By what I see... his career is still doing fine. I mean if that's the wrong end of a conservative axe job then where do I sign up for one?
Good thing that he'll just be appointed to another position of power within the government soon so that he'll have the power to direct change again. But it's so much better being a part time consultant and lecturer.
 
[quote name='camoor']Oh wow you helped some kid fill one out and a friend works at a college. Sorry I didn't know you were such a goddamn expert on my life experiences.[/quote]
Yeah, being formally trained and volunteering to help first generation immigrant kids and their families fill out FAFSA forms and answering their questions doesn't mean squat.

It's also a good thing that you fully described the socio-economic status of your family that necessitated the "crushing school loans" as well as your qualifiers for what "poor" means to you.

His father made furniture, I don't know how much money that makes but it was just small enough to put him in the 'poor' category.
So tell me, what does poor mean.

If you want to get technical, I stayed on the meal plan but two of my friends dropped off because of their money issues (of course full stipend man also stayed on). I didn't ask for their finance papers but I could tell these two friends were strapped. The only thing I can remember them buying besides food and cheap liquor was a Flowbee.

We never resented the kid for gaming the system like he did. After all if the state is stupid enough to give you free money, good for you for taking it.
Really? Cause it sure as hell seems to me that you were pretty resentful. I'm guessing that you also benefited from it by being able to play with the system too.

It had nothing to do with affirmative action too if that's what has your panties in a twist. The grants were purely about financial situations.
If that's true, then why bring it up at all to begin with.

[quote name='camoor']Yeah. It's funny how he thinks his anecdotal experience trumps mine.[/quote]
It does because mine isn't anecdotal. I'm not going to post a cv and provide references to prove you wrong, but anyone that knows something about financial aid knows that you don't know what you're talking about in your posts.

But I'll throw you a bone here: Yes, people do game the system and go through some lengths to appear "poor," but those are usually the ones with a Lot of assets and networth. Being cash poor isn't the only qualifier.

Also can you fix the quote, I didn't say that, dumdough did.
Nothing like a good ad hom to avoid refuting arguments.
 
[quote name='dorino']Also, all this "hurr but slavery was so bad" stuff needs to stop. My great great great great great great great grandfather was killed in the revolutionary war, why am I not getting money for his loss?[/QUOTE]

Oh, because he volunteered... No big difference between that and being captured, shipped over here chattel style, and then being sold like livestock. I'm also pretty sure that your ancestor got to walk away and make a living for himself after the war was over.

If we can't claim the past's hardship, then you can't claim the past's accomplishments.

That citizenship everyone holds so dear? Not yours anymore. Your ancestors didn't fight for the future. They fought for the present and only the present.
 
[quote name='dorino']My High school counselor did this too; she had no experience in financial aid. None.[/QUOTE]
Define no experience. My guidance counselor helped run the financial aid assitance program to help students in the Greater Boston area located at the Boston Public Library. It was staffed with financial aid counselors from different universities, volunteers consisting of high school students, college students, and various other professions that required training before you're able to become an advisor. There were also computers there to help kids without them that also included a database for hundreds of scholarships. While this may be atypical for your town, city, state, district, every student in the Boston Public School system is made aware of the resources there. Just because your town sucks doesn't mean other places suck too.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Im curious as to how forcing a company or college to hire or accept a member of a particular race just to meet a quota instead of qualifications and such is better than professional networking?[/QUOTE]
Because people were literally barred from employment based on being non-white. If it wasn't for affirmative action, we'd see no diversity in the workplace or anywhere else. Networking only used to work if you were white because there were virtually no non-white professionals.
 
Some people actually think that whites don't get any good jobs anymore?

Last time I checked, most of medical school students (and undergrads) are white women. Conservatives would have you believe that Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians overran college campuses a decade ago. Nope, women did.
 
A new study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade and his colleague Alexandria Radford is a real eye-opener in revealing just what sorts of students highly competitive colleges want -- or don't want -- on their campuses and how they structure their admissions policies to get the kind of "diversity" they seek. The Espenshade/Radford study draws from a new data set, the National Study of College Experience (NSCE), which was gathered from eight highly competitive public and private colleges and universities (entering freshmen SAT scores: 1360). Data was collected on over 245,000 applicants from three separate application years, and over 9,000 enrolled students filled out extensive questionnaires. Because of confidentiality agreements Espenshade and Radford could not name the institutions but they assure us that their statistical profile shows they fit nicely within the top 50 colleges and universities listed in the U.S. News & World Report ratings. Consistent with other studies, though in much greater detail, Espenshade and Radford show the substantial admissions boost, particularly at the private colleges in their study, which Hispanic students get over whites, and the enormous advantage over whites given to blacks. They also show how Asians must do substantially better than whites in order to reap the same probabilities of acceptance to these same highly competitive private colleges. On an "other things equal basis," where adjustments are made for a variety of background factors, being Hispanic conferred an admissions boost over being white (for those who applied in 1997) equivalent to 130 SAT points (out of 1600), while being black rather than white conferred a 310 SAT point advantage. Asians, however, suffered an admissions penalty compared to whites equivalent to 140 SAT points.
The box students checked off on the racial question on their application was thus shown to have an extraordinary effect on a student's chances of gaining admission to the highly competitive private schools in the NSCE database. To have the same chances of gaining admission as a black student with an SAT score of 1100, an Hispanic student otherwise equally matched in background characteristics would have to have a 1230, a white student a 1410, and an Asian student a 1550. Here the Espenshade/Radford results are consistent with other studies, including those of William Bowen and Derek Bok in their book The Shape of the River, though they go beyond this influential study in showing both the substantial Hispanic admissions advantage and the huge admissions penalty suffered by Asian applicants. Although all highly competitive colleges and universities will deny that they have racial quotas -- either minimum quotas or ceiling quotas -- the huge boosts they give to the lower-achieving black and Hispanic applicants, and the admissions penalties they extract from their higher-achieving Asian applicants, clearly suggest otherwise.
Espenshade and Radford also take up very thoroughly the question of "class based preferences" and what they find clearly shows a general disregard for improving the admission chances of poor and otherwise disadvantaged whites. Other studies, including a 2005 analysis of nineteen highly selective public and private universities by William Bowen, Martin Kurzweil, and Eugene Tobin, in their 2003 book, Equity and Excellence in American Higher Education, found very little if any advantage in the admissions process accorded to whites from economically or educationally disadvantaged families compared to whites from wealthier or better educated homes. Espenshade and Radford cite this study and summarize it as follows: "These researchers find that, for non-minority [i.e., white] applicants with the same SAT scores, there is no perceptible difference in admission chances between applicants from families in the bottom income quartile, applicants who would be the first in their families to attend college, and all other (non-minority) applicants from families at higher levels of socioeconomic status. When controls are added for other student and institutional characteristics, these authors find that “on an other-things-equal basis, [white] applicants from low-SES backgrounds, whether defined by family income or parental education, get essentially no break in the admissions process; they fare neither better nor worse than other [white] applicants."
Distressing as many might consider this to be -- since the same institutions that give no special consideration to poor white applicants boast about their commitment to "diversity" and give enormous admissions breaks to blacks, even to those from relatively affluent homes -- Espenshade and Radford in their survey found the actual situation to be much more troubling. At the private institutions in their study whites from lower-class backgrounds incurred a huge admissions disadvantage not only in comparison to lower-class minority students, but compared to whites from middle-class and upper-middle-class backgrounds as well. The lower-class whites proved to be all-around losers. When equally matched for background factors (including SAT scores and high school GPAs), the better-off whites were more than three times as likely to be accepted as the poorest whites (.28 vs. .08 admissions probability). Having money in the family greatly improved a white applicant's admissions chances, lack of money greatly reduced it. The opposite class trend was seen among non-whites, where the poorer the applicant the greater the probability of acceptance when all other factors are taken into account. Class-based affirmative action does exist within the three non-white ethno-racial groupings, but among the whites the groups advanced are those with money.

When lower-class whites are matched with lower-class blacks and other non-whites the degree of the non-white advantage becomes astronomical: lower-class Asian applicants are seven times as likely to be accepted to the competitive private institutions as similarly qualified whites, lower-class Hispanic applicants eight times as likely, and lower-class blacks ten times as likely. These are enormous differences and reflect the fact that lower-class whites were rarely accepted to the private institutions Espenshade and Radford surveyed. Their diversity-enhancement value was obviously rated very low.
Besides the bias against lower-class whites, the private colleges in the Espenshade/Radford study seem to display what might be called an urban/Blue State bias against rural and Red State occupations and values. This is most clearly shown in a little remarked statistic in the study's treatment of the admissions advantage of participation in various high school extra-curricular activities. In the competitive private schools surveyed participation in many types of extra-curricular activities -- including community service activities, performing arts activities, and "cultural diversity" activities -- conferred a substantial improvement in an applicant's chances of admission. The admissions advantage was usually greatest for those who held leadership positions or who received awards or honors associated with their activities. No surprise here -- every student applying to competitive colleges knows about the importance of extracurriculars.
But what Espenshade and Radford found in regard to what they call "career-oriented activities" was truly shocking even to this hardened veteran of the campus ideological and cultural wars. Participation in such Red State activities as high school ROTC, 4-H clubs, or the Future Farmers of America was found to reduce very substantially a student's chances of gaining admission to the competitive private colleges in the NSCE database on an all-other-things-considered basis. The admissions disadvantage was greatest for those in leadership positions in these activities or those winning honors and awards. "Being an officer or winning awards" for such career-oriented activities as junior ROTC, 4-H, or Future Farmers of America, say Espenshade and Radford, "has a significantly negative association with admission outcomes at highly selective institutions." Excelling in these activities "is associated with 60 or 65 percent lower odds of admission."
http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html
I figured this would be better posted here than in a new topic.
 
[quote name='dorino']Creating diversity defeats the point of diversity. fullmetalfan, that's a sad bit of reading.[/QUOTE]
Creating diversity would be at the very least giving poor and working class whites at least an equal chance of admission as rich whites. And you know, puting that farmboy from Idaho on equal footing as the blue blood from the East Coast.
Oh, and this is the title of the article, so don't try and say I am reading the article wrong.
How Diversity Punishes Asians, Poor Whites and Lots of Others

by Russell K. Nieli
Russell K. Nieli received his Ph.D. in political philosophy from Princeton University and currently works for Princeton's James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions. He has been a lecturer in Princeton's Politics Department and for ten years was an academic adviser to Princeton freshmen.
 
Good post fullmetalfan. All this reverse discrimination for "diversity." Do people really think we are all that different? Or that skin color in American means a substantial difference in thoughts, ideas, beliefs, etc.?

Last week, Robert Gibbs told reporters that Obama claimed "Sherry Sherrod had a unique set of experiences..." I don't understand this at all. Are they more unique than any average American woman her age. What makes them more unique than anybody else's unique experiences?!? Are they unique because she's black!?!

This is the sort of ridiculous blabber that people put forward as reason for ridiculous appointments. Reverse Racism doesn't mend the past, it only destroys the present and impedes the future.
 
Dude, tivo, everybody is the same, exactly. That's why I advocate that we don't vote. We're all thinking the same thing anyway, we all have the same experiences, might as well just ask one person what they think and make that law. It's what the founders intended.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Dude, tivo, everybody is the same, exactly. That's why I advocate that we don't vote. We're all thinking the same thing anyway, we all have the same experiences, might as well just ask one person what they think and make that law. It's what the founders intended.[/QUOTE]

"I would rather be governed by the first 2000 names in the Boston phone book than by the 2000 members of the faculty of Harvard University." - William Buckley Jr.

Maybe not Boston but the point is there. Also note 5/9 of Supreme court went to Harvard Law, as did Obama. Harvard + Yale is the ticket into the elite ruling class.
 
[quote name='tivo']"I would rather be governed by the first 2000 names in the Boston phone book than by the 2000 members of the faculty of Harvard University." - William Buckley Jr.

Maybe not Boston but the point is there. Also note 5/9 of Supreme court went to Harvard Law, as did Obama. Harvard + Yale is the ticket into the elite ruling class.[/QUOTE]

And they deserve it right? They have the same experiences as everyone else and made it through an elite institution completely on their own with wealth they earned (at least as long as they were white), right?
 
[quote name='tivo']Last week, Robert Gibbs told reporters that Obama claimed "Sherry Sherrod had a unique set of experiences..." I don't understand this at all. Are they more unique than any average American woman her age. What makes them more unique than anybody else's unique experiences?!? Are they unique because she's black!?![/QUOTE]

there we go. there is modern racism in action. claim that a person's achievements are solely due to their minority status. drop that bomb, then walk away. yet you've never even proposed the same question to the myriad and various white people you've met in life who got something far better than they deserved.

(leaving aside the presumption that sherrod is unqualified for her job, another racist assertion you've made that you can't support).

man, if michael brown of FEMA wasn't a white male, the ENTIRE issue of his gross incompetence would have been about race and/or gender. instead it's "cronyism" - which is just code for white males jerking each other off.
 
bread's done
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