John Kerry is making the most badass and awesome speech ever.

[quote name='niceguyshawne']But, to be fair, an even greater number of troops are undereducated making his statement true.[/QUOTE]

I know this is from a right-wing think tank, but here are some numbers:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm
If one single statistic could settle this issue, it is this: 98 percent of all enlisted recruits who enter the military have an education level of high school graduate or higher, compared to the national average of 75 percent.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']Oh, one other thing: Kerry's comments are only rallying the GOP faithful. Voters have already made up their minds by now who they're voting for.[/QUOTE]

That's just not true of a lot of voters in a lot of races. Look at any poll in any close race and you'll see enough undecided voters to possibly swing the election. Kerry's comments are hurting with these, as well as waking up Republicans who have been less likely to vote up until now due to unhappiness with the current leadership.
 
Here's Keith's comment from last night: http://movies.crooksandliars.com/CD-SC-KerryJoke.wmv

Oh, and people are REALLY retarded. Anyone who isn't a jackass would have gotten what Kerry said immediately, especially in context with what he had just said, but who gives a fuck about context, right? Seriously, anyone who heard what he said and immediately thought "OMG HE H8S TEH TRUUPS!!!11!!" should be taken out behind the woodshed and shot.
 
He shouldn't have said it period, no matter what his intended target was. It was in bad taste, and shows that anyone can spew hateful and slanderous thoughts to try and win someone an election.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I know this is from a right-wing think tank, but here are some numbers:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda05-08.cfm[/QUOTE]
All branches of the military require you to have a high school education or equivalent, except recently the Naval Reserve (as seen on The Simpsons). This statistic is completely meaningless. A far more interesting question is the percentage of college graduates or those with some college experience who enlist... The numbers are miniscule. More than a quarter of the general population has a 4 year degree or higher.

The fact of the matter is that most enlisted personnel in the military join as a means to an end. They join in order to go to college later, or to learn skills that translate into a civilian career. They come from predominantly poor and middle class families. There are very few Pat Tillman's out there. The people that support the war, and are the loudest about "supporting the troops", don't seem to acknowledge this.

Perhaps Kerry's completely misinterpreted comments wouldn't be so biting if they didn't have an element of truth to them. If you don't have the money for college, and don't get a scholarship, you'll end up in Iraq. There is a major disconnect between the people that do the chest pounding about supporting their troops and send them off to war, and the people that actually go and do the fighting, they're two completely different demographics. The former are mainly rich white men. The latter are younger, poorer, unlikely to have an education beyond high school, more likely to be minorities.

But, the point is moot, since he was referring to Bush, and not the troops. The only one that needs to apologize to them is George W. Bush. "Iraq is an eminent threat to America" "They will greet us as liberators" "Mission Accomplished".

Great rant by Olbermann, by the way. One of the few in the media with the balls to say that.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']All branches of the military require you to have a high school education or equivalent, except recently the Naval Reserve (as seen on The Simpsons). [/QUOTE]

I'm sorry, but that's blatantly wrong. There were at least five kids in BCT that were dropouts. Whether their recruiters lied to get them in, that's a different story.

Also, cited:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1004-01.htm


And GEDs have been okay for at least a few years.
 
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/releases/release.html?id=37

November 1, 2006
Statement of Senator John Kerry

As a combat veteran, I want to make it clear to anyone in uniform and to their loved ones: my poorly stated joke at a rally was not about, and never intended to refer to any troop.

I sincerely regret that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply anything negative about those in uniform, and I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended.

It is clear the Republican Party would rather talk about anything but their failed security policy. I don’t want my verbal slip to be a diversion from the real issues. I will continue to fight for a change of course to provide real security for our country, and a winning strategy for our troops.
Click to expand...

Now that he's apologized, I'm sure our dedicated liberal media will no longer follow this story, and those considered devil's advocates or republicans on this board will also accept his apology and move on with their lives. Right? Right? Oh, who am I kidding? It's all about the letter next to his name.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']

Perhaps Kerry's completely misinterpreted comments wouldn't be so biting if they didn't have an element of truth to them. If you don't have the money for college, and don't get a scholarship, you'll end up in Iraq. There is a major disconnect between the people that do the chest pounding about supporting their troops and send them off to war, and the people that actually go and do the fighting, they're two completely different demographics. The former are mainly rich white men. The latter are younger, poorer, unlikely to have an education beyond high school, more likely to be minorities.
[/quote]

However, that's not what Kerry said if you take it at face value. He did not say "if you're poor or a minority, you'll end up stuck in Iraq". His statement implied those who enlist in the military are people who didn't work hard in school and "didn't make an effort to be smart". You acknowledge that most enlistees are those who don't have the means to go to college right and are using the military as a means to do so. I'm surprised you support Kerry's original statement which seems to go against what you're saying.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That reinforces dafoomie's point, however, by specifically mentioning loosening standards.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how. That article was from last year, and when I joined, they were already recruiting kids who didn't have a high school diploma, and that was four years ago. So to say that military branches require (his bolding, not mine) a high school education is wrong.

These 'standards' have been loosened for quite some time, and the HS diploma is just a nice bonus to recruiters.

Trust me, just because the numbers are there to say that there is a percentage that has a diploma or GED, don't take it at face value. They had me lie about a head injury and breathing problems so I could serve. Unfortunately, those reared their head during BCT and I was not eligible for any benefits.
 
If voters change their mind and vote R because of Kerry's misstatements instead of looking at the real issues (Iraq, healthcare, losing the war on terrorism, largest debt & deficit in history, loss of the Bill of Rights except for the Right to Bear Arms, of course, etc), then we deserve what we get.
 
[quote name='dopa345']However, that's not what Kerry said if you take it at face value. He did not say "if you're poor or a minority, you'll end up stuck in Iraq". His statement implied those who enlist in the military are people who didn't work hard in school and "didn't make an effort to be smart". You acknowledge that most enlistees are those who don't have the means to go to college right and are using the military as a means to do so. I'm surprised you support Kerry's original statement which seems to go against what you're saying.[/QUOTE]
No, his statement implied that George W. Bush is stupid. The Republican Party inferred that his statement was referring to the troops. However, the fact remains that most people who enlist are less educated, and aren't the children of privilege that these politicians are. That was my point, not Kerry's.[quote name='CocheseUGA']I'm sorry, but that's blatantly wrong. There were at least five kids in BCT that were dropouts. Whether their recruiters lied to get them in, that's a different story.

Also, cited:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1004-01.htm


And GEDs have been okay for at least a few years.[/QUOTE]
GED's count as High School or equivalent, statistically. However, the armed forces regard them differently, they require people with GED's to score higher on the ASVAB. But, the people with GED's are included in that 99+% the article cites. Here are the requirements to join:

Army: http://www.army.com/enlist/active-duty-requirements.html
have a high school diploma or equivalent (such as a GED)

Navy: http://www.navy.com/about/before/enlistmentstandards/
Generally speaking, you must meet the high school graduate or high school equivalency requirements to enlist in the Navy. It is extremely rare to be accepted into the Navy if you have not met the high school graduate or high school equivalency requirements. (You can get in anyway if you score extremely high on the ASVAB, a fairly recent change)

Air Force: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/asvabminimum.htm
You're more likely to be struck by lightening than enlist in the Air Force without a high school diploma. Even with a GED, the chances are not good.

Marines: http://www.princetonreview.com/cte/articles/military/marinehs.asp
A high school diploma or equivalent is required for enlistment in the Marines.

Some of the reserves are taking non-graduates with high enough ASVAB scores, but not many.

Not that this changes my point in any way. A higher rate of dropouts in the military, if anything, would support my point. But, the military has standards that almost completely preclude them. Its almost impossible to get into the military without at least a GED, its easier just to go out and get the GED, and then apply.

Yes, the recruiters are lying. They've got quotas to meet. Which would mean that the people who are lying would show up statistically as people who are graduates or equivalent, because they've lied about it.

The point I'm trying to make with all this, is that people in the military generally aren't there because they support the cause so much that they're lining up to go to Iraq. They join to get an education and a career. The people who do the chest thumping and yell the loudest about supporting the war, aren't the people going out to fight it. THAT is my point.

The only Pat Tillman is Pat Tillman, people who live a financially comfortable life don't join the military. Its almost strictly a means to an end.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']No, his statement implied that George W. Bush is stupid. The Republican Party inferred that his statement was referring to the troops. However, the fact remains that most people who enlist are less educated, and aren't the children of privilege that these politicians are. That was my point, not Kerry's.
GED's count as High School or equivalent, statistically. However, the armed forces regard them differently, they require people with GED's to score higher on the ASVAB. But, the people with GED's are included in that 99+% the article cites. Here are the requirements to join:

Army: http://www.army.com/enlist/active-duty-requirements.html
have a high school diploma or equivalent (such as a GED)

Navy: http://www.navy.com/about/before/enlistmentstandards/
Generally speaking, you must meet the high school graduate or high school equivalency requirements to enlist in the Navy. It is extremely rare to be accepted into the Navy if you have not met the high school graduate or high school equivalency requirements. (You can get in anyway if you score extremely high on the ASVAB, a fairly recent change)

Air Force: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/genjoin/a/asvabminimum.htm
You're more likely to be struck by lightening than enlist in the Air Force without a high school diploma. Even with a GED, the chances are not good.

Marines: http://www.princetonreview.com/cte/articles/military/marinehs.asp
A high school diploma or equivalent is required for enlistment in the Marines.

Some of the reserves are taking non-graduates with high enough ASVAB scores, but not many.

Not that this changes my point in any way. A higher rate of dropouts in the military, if anything, would support my point. But, the military has standards that almost completely preclude them. Its almost impossible to get into the military without at least a GED, its easier just to go out and get the GED, and then apply.

Yes, the recruiters are lying. They've got quotas to meet. Which would mean that the people who are lying would show up statistically as people who are graduates or equivalent, because they've lied about it.

The point I'm trying to make with all this, is that people in the military generally aren't there because they support the cause so much that they're lining up to go to Iraq. They join to get an education and a career. The people who do the chest thumping and yell the loudest about supporting the war, aren't the people going out to fight it. THAT is my point.

The only Pat Tillman is Pat Tillman, people who live a financially comfortable life don't join the military. Its almost strictly a means to an end.[/QUOTE]

Based on my personal experience that is not correct. You'll just have to take my word for it.

My best friend graduated Georgia Tech with am Aerospace Engineering degree and is currently in the Air Force. That would have been a financially comfortable life in and of itself, but he wants to follow in his dad's footsteps (fly airliners) so he joined the USAF to gain flight experience. This is not a means to an end. His story is but one of thousands.

I was a semester away from getting my degree when I joined. I surely could have eeked by until then, but that is what I chose to do. Half the people I went to MEPS with did not graduate, and I know at least half of them didn't lie about it. Take whatever percentage you want and say the recruiters are lying about it, but the numbers aren't anywhere close to accurate. I'd say no more than 80%, tops, have a true high school education.
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']I'm still waiting for Dubya to apologize for his "where's the WMDs?" joke. I guess it was just funny when there were only 500 troops killed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3570845.stm[/quote]

Ok, since you seem to want to play the "It's not bad because the other guy did it" game, I am still waiting to hear an apology from gerry studds for screwing an underage page before I condemn Mark Foley for talking about screwing an underage page.
 
[quote name='Veritas1204']Ok, since you seem to want to play the "It's not bad because the other guy did it" game, I am still waiting to hear an apology from gerry studds for screwing an underage page before I condemn Mark Foley for talking about screwing an underage page.[/QUOTE]

You'll be waiting a long time, since supporting our troops doesn't mean bringing them home.
 
[quote name='Veritas1204']Ok, since you seem to want to play the "It's not bad because the other guy did it" game[/QUOTE]

Bush meant what he said and was not misunderstood in anyway you ignorant tool.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']He shouldn't have said it period, no matter what his intended target was. It was in bad taste, and shows that anyone can spew hateful and slanderous thoughts to try and win someone an election.[/QUOTE]

No, it wasn't. It was a joke about the President's inability to conduct the Iraq war successfully because of a complete lack of understanding and knowledge about the situation. The only way it could possibly be considered slanderous or hateful is if it is taken completely out of context or the person hearing it is missing a few chromosomes.

Oh, and get behind this, now.

woodshed.jpg


[quote name='dopa345']However, that's not what Kerry said if you take it at face value. He did not say "if you're poor or a minority, you'll end up stuck in Iraq". His statement implied those who enlist in the military are people who didn't work hard in school and "didn't make an effort to be smart". You acknowledge that most enlistees are those who don't have the means to go to college right and are using the military as a means to do so. I'm surprised you support Kerry's original statement which seems to go against what you're saying.[/QUOTE]

And your entire point rests on a blatant misinterpretation of what he said, so your argument is invalid.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']Based on my personal experience that is not correct. You'll just have to take my word for it.[/QUOTE]

The miltary is huge, so your personal experiences don't mean a whole lot at all.
 
It's amusing how the republicans are grasping at straws with this comment as if it really means anything to anyone except the fanatical right.
 
[quote name='Veritas1204']Ok, since you seem to want to play the "It's not bad because the other guy did it" game, I am still waiting to hear an apology from gerry studds for screwing an underage page before I condemn Mark Foley for talking about screwing an underage page.[/QUOTE]

To mention Gerry Studds and ignore Dan Crane in the same breath is either (1) dishonest, or (2) indicative of you listening to too much Sean Hannity. Which one is it?

I made the "W made a tasteless joke, too" argument, but:
1) W did not fuck up the joke; it was meant as it was said
2) my argument was not a justification of what either man did, but, rather, merely pointing out that this feigned animosity is a direct result of him having a (D) following his name.
3) I'd also like to point out that the "liberal media" didn't rake the president over the coals when he made a funny about how his rationale for war, which had killed 500 troops by that point, was bogus.
 
[quote name='evanft']

The miltary is huge, so your personal experiences don't mean a whole lot at all.[/QUOTE]

What's your experience with it?

I thought it was a cheap shot. Something we shouldn't have to put up with one way or another from politicians. I don't care what side you're on.

Also, one must take into account his past when he makes a comment like this. His views on troops hasn't exactly been stellar. So, combine that with this misstep, if you're in need of popular support, then you're going to try and make the connection. Don't be so ignorant to tell me that Democrats, Libertarians, Labour, Green, the fucking Bolsheviks wouldn't have made the same claims. It's politics, it's fucked up. I'm tired of it.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']What's your experience with it?[/QUOTE]

Ah, so now your argument is "I HAVE TEH EXPERIENCES DAT U DONT SO I WINZ AGAINST UR INFOZEZ THAT J00 FUND ON TEH GOOGLE!!!". Fantastic. Because I, or other in this thread which you have or will refer to, don't have military experience, what you say automatically overules a superior source that has data on the entire miltary and not just the small sample you were exposed to. Yep, makes sense.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']I thought it was a cheap shot. Something we shouldn't have to put up with one way or another from politicians. I don't care what side you're on.[/QUOTE]

Again, you'd have to completely miss the point to think that.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']Also, one must take into account his past when he makes a comment like this. His views on troops hasn't exactly been stellar. [/QUOTE]

TEH CITATIONS, PLZ???

[quote name='CocheseUGA']So, combine that with this misstep, if you're in need of popular support, then you're going to try and make the connection. Don't be so ignorant to tell me that Democrats, Libertarians, Labour, Green, the fucking Bolsheviks wouldn't have made the same claims. It's politics, it's fucked up. I'm tired of it.[/QUOTE]

spaghetti_on_the_wall.jpg
 
I really have no idea what that picture is supposed to represent. Nor do I care.

Actually, I was just asking what your experience was to see if you concurred with the links. That's it. But it's a typical 'You must be looking for information to undermine me' retort. I'm not saying you are incorrect, or I know everything. I'm merely offering a personal experience that does not corroberate the evidence presented. Stop being a dickweed and read things at face value.

The data? The data is flat out wrong. I don't need anyone to tell me that. Kind of like I don't need to see anything given to me by a car salesman: I know it's either going to be a flat-out lie or an exaggeration. Which is exactly what recruiters are: car salesman. They're here to tell you how much better their line is than their competitor's, and how you'd be so much happier and better off with them than you would anyone else. Oh, no need to have a diploma, we can whip one up for you. Don't mind the extra few pounds, we can get rid of that with some Saran Wrap and Preperation-H. Also don't mind the MEPS optometrist when he says you have perfect eyesight...we don't actually know if he's licensed, anyways. Also, don't worry if you fail the PFT in the holding area...we're so short on troops it doesn't matter anyways.

All I have are my experiences. Nothing more.

I thought it was a cheap shot at the President. How could I be missing the point? Did you ever have one? I'm tired of dirty politicians and dirty ads. I'm tired of wanting the election to be over with in July. Sue me, I hate nasty campaigns.

Citations? Watch the Dick Cavett show. 6/30/71. I'm sure it's on YouTube.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Why wasn't he this defiant last year? Anyway...

This is a nonstory. It's a screwed up joke, but those 29% of the people who still support this president won't believe a single thing, and swear up and down that John Kerry hates the troops and wants the terrorists to win (just like all Democrats).[/quote]Wasn't John Kerry the one who testified in the 70's about how US soliders were basically rapists and murderers in Vietnam? Yeah, he doesn't sound like someone who would hate soldiers at all! And I am quite sure more than 29% of Americans are pissed off at his comments, even some Democrats have said "Yeah, he doesn't speak for us." Very nice of Kerry to spit on our troops from his Ivory Tower, no wonder he lost to GW in 2004. That's like losing to a 1 legged man in a bicycle race.

Love it, when Kerry says something stupid about the troops, it's a non-issue. When Bush or some other Republican says anything even remotely stupid, no matter what issue it is, everyone pounces on them.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Actually, I was just asking what your experience was to see if you concurred with the links. That's it. But it's a typical 'You must be looking for information to undermine me' retort. I'm not saying you are incorrect, or I know everything. I'm merely offering a personal experience that does not corroberate the evidence presented. Stop being a dickweed and read things at face value.[/quote]

Woops. Tone doesn't come across very well on the internets, does it? Myyyy mistake.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']The data? The data is flat out wrong. I don't need anyone to tell me that. Kind of like I don't need to see anything given to me by a car salesman: I know it's either going to be a flat-out lie or an exaggeration. Which is exactly what recruiters are: car salesman. They're here to tell you how much better their line is than their competitor's, and how you'd be so much happier and better off with them than you would anyone else. Oh, no need to have a diploma, we can whip one up for you. Don't mind the extra few pounds, we can get rid of that with some Saran Wrap and Preperation-H. Also don't mind the MEPS optometrist when he says you have perfect eyesight...we don't actually know if he's licensed, anyways. Also, don't worry if you fail the PFT in the holding area...we're so short on troops it doesn't matter anyways.

All I have are my experiences. Nothing more. [/quote]

If you want your personal experiences to be actually taken seriously, you're gonna have to show some data from SOMEONE proving it to be true.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']I thought it was a cheap shot at the President. How could I be missing the point? Did you ever have one? I'm tired of dirty politicians and dirty ads. I'm tired of wanting the election to be over with in July. Sue me, I hate nasty campaigns.[/quote]

Yeah, it's so nasty and cheap to use a metaphor to call the President incompetant and say his handling of the war has completely miserable.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']Citations? Watch the Dick Cavett show. 6/30/71. I'm sure it's on YouTube.[/quote]

*checks date in windows calendar*

*checks date in post again to be sure*

*does math*

:roll:
 
[quote name='evanft']
If you want your personal experiences to be actually taken seriously, you're gonna have to show some data from SOMEONE proving it to be true.
[/QUOTE]

What kind of retarded justification is that? I'm going to go outside and tell you I see a plane. You want me to fucking cite it? Hey I ate oatmeal with peanut butter today. Come cite the fucking jar.


OMG!!! There was TV before you were born? Teh h0rr0r5. Bet it was even in color, too.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Based on my personal experience that is not correct. You'll just have to take my word for it.

My best friend graduated Georgia Tech with am Aerospace Engineering degree and is currently in the Air Force. That would have been a financially comfortable life in and of itself, but he wants to follow in his dad's footsteps (fly airliners) so he joined the USAF to gain flight experience. This is not a means to an end. His story is but one of thousands.

.[/QUOTE]


Just kind of lurking but that story is exactly a means to an end. The end in this case isn't surviving financially but learning flying. Different standard, same deal.
 
Perhaps. He already had a license and we actually flew to Athens and back together. I'm not actually sure he's flying yet, I haven't talked to him in awhile. Last I knew, he was working on F-22s.

He could have become a commercial pilot by other means, this was the one he chose (and apparently USAF BCT is a fucking cakewalk). You get dorms and shit. I had to benchpress a wooden bunkbed.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']What's your experience with it?

I thought it was a cheap shot. Something we shouldn't have to put up with one way or another from politicians. I don't care what side you're on[/QUOTE]

Kerry is a veteran himself you know.

BTW are you reffering to the TV clip where he pwns that Swift Vet Douchecopter?

Also Vanilla dont be such a dishonet tool, those things did happen and Kerry never ever even implied every soldier did it.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']The fact of the matter is that most enlisted personnel in the military join as a means to an end. They join in order to go to college later, or to learn skills that translate into a civilian career. They come from predominantly poor and middle class families.[/QUOTE]

Did you even look at that study? It concludes this is just not true...
 
[quote name='E-Z-B']It's amusing how the republicans are grasping at straws with this comment as if it really means anything to anyone except the fanatical right.[/QUOTE]

If this were really true, why did Democrats from Harold Ford to Hillary Clinton to John Murtha tell Kerry to apologize? Why did Democrats who wanted to make campaign appearances with Kerry to a one cancel those appearances? And why, frankly, then, did Kerry apologize?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top