Kucinich Speech at DNCC: Finally Someone Gets It

[quote name='thrustbucket']Not even that. For the past 2 years (maybe 4), Democrats have done little but blame Republicans. They lost before because they had very little in the way of plans, and this is more of the same.

I would just like if Democrats would lay out detailed plans for all their "fixes" across the board. That's what bothers me. Their whole shtick for nearly a decade has been "We don't really have much of a plan, but we know the Republican plan sucks!"

A lot of people often side with the guy with detailed plans, even if they aren't crazy about the plans, if the other choice is simply a guy with lots of good intentions and no plan. This is what the Dems are up against.[/quote]

That was the dumbest post I've read today.

Did you even LISTEN to the Democratic debates? Joe Biden spent the whole time outlining his plan to divide Iraq. Hilary and Obama drew boos because they spent too much time detailing their health care plans and arguing over particulars.

And don't give me that BS about how the Dems haven't done anything, cause how can they when the Republicans have had a majority from 1994-2006? Even when the Dems pass something through Congress nowadays, Bush vetoes it, and since the Dems majority is only one in the Senate they don't have the two thirds necessary to override the veto.

EDIT: I read your follow-up posts, which clarify what you're saying more but I wrote the above based on your first post.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I think Pot calling Kettle Black.

Not sure about the inbetween symbols.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what it means. For Kerry to complain about anyone flip-flopping is comedic chutzpah. Kind of like Bill Clinton calling someone on the carpet for "family values" - or did that happen too?

And before anyone gets all "LOL ZOMG McCain iz a flip-flopper too! LOLZ!",

A. I know that.

B. Don't like him anyway.
 
[quote name='Heavy Hitter']Yeah, that's what it means. For Kerry to complain about anyone flip-flopping is comedic chutzpah. Kind of like Bill Clinton calling someone on the carpet for "family values" - or did that happen too?

And before anyone gets all "LOL ZOMG McCain iz a flip-flopper too! LOLZ!",

A. I know that.

B. Don't like him anyway.[/QUOTE]

Good thing you watched the speech he made, since you completely got the tongue-in-cheek appall with which Kerry spoke in this case.

Or, wait, no. It appears you've obtusely overlooked Kerry's tone.

Not to mention the idiocy of a party nominating a candidate in 2008 whose cover-all-the-bases stances on attitudes make Kerry's alleged flip-flops pale in comparison.

Your faux outrage is akin to lecturing two friends, one enjoying a beer and one passed out from drinking a fifth of bourbon, about the dangers of alcohol as if they were equally indulging.

That aside, spare me your "I don't like McCain" nonsense. Your crap posts and your crap signature clearly show who you are aligned with - and that you're the kind of wimp who, when the chips are down, you'll cash in your self respect and vote for him in November.

Don't deny it. You buy into the "Obama is so ZOMG communist!" crap so much - that point alone seems to prove you're enough of an idiot to vote for McCain on your sheer lack of principle.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Speaking of good speeches, anyone check out John Kerry's? I always liked him and donated a few dollars in 04 even though I couldn't vote. Really a shame he didn't win, and his speech last night was excellent. He really could have used that enthusiasm back then.[/QUOTE]

I think he had the speech of the convention. Thus far, anyway.
 
Myke, I really wish you could articulate your views without resorting to the same type of personal insults and partisan rhetoric that the conservative blow hards on this forum do--just from the opposite side of the political spectrum.

You're better than that and it's much easier to debate such people if you don't resort to stooping to their levels.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Good thing you watched the speech he made, since you completely got the tongue-in-cheek appall with which Kerry spoke in this case.

Or, wait, no. It appears you've obtusely overlooked Kerry's tone.

Not to mention the idiocy of a party nominating a candidate in 2008 whose cover-all-the-bases stances on attitudes make Kerry's alleged flip-flops pale in comparison.

Your faux outrage is akin to lecturing two friends, one enjoying a beer and one passed out from drinking a fifth of bourbon, about the dangers of alcohol as if they were equally indulging.

That aside, spare me your "I don't like McCain" nonsense. Your crap posts and your crap signature clearly show who you are aligned with - and that you're the kind of wimp who, when the chips are down, you'll cash in your self respect and vote for him in November.

Don't deny it. You buy into the "Obama is so ZOMG communist!" crap so much - that point alone seems to prove you're enough of an idiot to vote for McCain on your sheer lack of principle.[/quote]

:applause:
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Myke, I really wish you could articulate your views without resorting to the same type of personal insults and partisan rhetoric that the conservative blow hards on this forum do--just from the opposite side of the political spectrum.

You're better than that and it's much easier to debate such people if you don't resort to stooping to their levels.[/quote]
To be fair, he does have the fifth worst signature I've seen on this site.

EDIT: And that's coming from someone whose signature is stuck in 1998.
 
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I did watch it, excruciating as it was to do so. And I realize that it was an attempt at humor by the big guy, but as his "stuck in Iraq" humor reminds us, he's not good at it and he should lay off trying to be funny - ever.

McCain a bad nominee? Check. Can't argue with that. He's the candidate the Left and their water carriers wanted, and they got him. He's one of the easier-to-defeat Republicans that were gunning for the nomination.

Outrage? Sorry, but my mood was actually falling somewhere in the neighborhood of amused. And I'm the one that overlooks tone? One of us has a problem discerning tone, and it isn't me. You're the one constantly taking up the bully pulpit and attempting to argue with anger and belittlement. It's called a mirror, and you should try looking in one from time to time.

You can call my posts and sig "crap", and that's fine. I'm not seeking your approval on anything, and I tend to disagree with Puffa469. As far as this post of yours goes, it's strangely without the patented super-mykevermin-attitude and prose we all know and love so well. Strange.

It's no secret I do not like McCain. I've said so many times before, but it looks like I needed to say it again as one of us (again, not me) is having trouble with reading comprehension.

Look, you can name-call all you want but all it does it make you look foolish. Either you're drunk again or terribly immature. Either sober up, or grow up.

For you to make the assumption that I will vote for McCain is ridiculous. The only thing you can bank on is that I sure as hell won't vote for Obama. The only thing I've "bought into" is that I don't like his proposed policies on a good number of things. And yes, I read the proposals from his own website. Do I think a President Obama would be bad for the country? Yeah. Does that mean I'll automatically vote for McCain? Not really. I may go third (or fourth, or fifth) party, I may write in "None of these Asses", I may stay home. But you're so sure of how someone that you don't even know will act, you had better go with your gut and buy a few lotto tickets.

[quote name='mykevermin']Good thing you watched the speech he made, since you completely got the tongue-in-cheek appall with which Kerry spoke in this case.

Or, wait, no. It appears you've obtusely overlooked Kerry's tone.

Not to mention the idiocy of a party nominating a candidate in 2008 whose cover-all-the-bases stances on attitudes make Kerry's alleged flip-flops pale in comparison.

Your faux outrage is akin to lecturing two friends, one enjoying a beer and one passed out from drinking a fifth of bourbon, about the dangers of alcohol as if they were equally indulging.

That aside, spare me your "I don't like McCain" nonsense. Your crap posts and your crap signature clearly show who you are aligned with - and that you're the kind of wimp who, when the chips are down, you'll cash in your self respect and vote for him in November.

Don't deny it. You buy into the "Obama is so ZOMG communist!" crap so much - that point alone seems to prove you're enough of an idiot to vote for McCain on your sheer lack of principle.[/QUOTE]
 
What idiocy? The only thing I saw was that he called Kerry out for being a hypocrite, which is more or less true in this situation. I guess those of us that didn't drink the kool-aid can see that.
 
[quote name='SpiderLocMTGO']What idiocy? The only thing I saw was that...[/QUOTE]

Well I found your problem.

Look harder, perhaps you can look at myke's response on the matter or maybe at HH'S failtastic sig.

Unless of course you think tossing around the word commie until it is meaningless is not a sign of massive consumption of kool-aid.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']To be fair, he does have the fifth worst signature I've seen on this site.
[/QUOTE]

I turned off sig display long ago on any forums I visit. There are at least 10 annoying ones for every one clever one.

And I wasn't saying HH didn't deserve to be called out, I just wish discourse on this forum could be more substantive and less personal attacks and tired rhetoric. But this is the net, and that's an impossible dream.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I turned off sig display long ago on any forums I visit. There are at least 10 annoying ones for every one clever one.

And I wasn't saying HH didn't deserve to be called out, I just wish discourse on this forum could be more substantive and less personal attacks and tired rhetoric. But this is the net, and that's an impossible dream.[/QUOTE]

I concur...

Damn, quit quoting that worthless asshole so I don't have to see his asinine posts! I put him on ignore not for disliking Dave Matthews but for being an asshole in a thread about someone's death on top of just being generally annoyed by his holier than thou attitude. Ironic for someone who said they went to community college out of high school.

As I said in that thread about Leroi Moore, he's a worthless, thoughtless, self-centered piece of shit and no one should pay him any attention.
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Touche. :D

I don't expect people to be 100% composed all the time, some people are worthless and deserved to be treated as such. I have zero respect for Koggit and could never treat him respectfully so I've thrown him on ignore and won't waste my time on him in the future.

The problem with this forum that I was getting at is that we have conservative blow hards who do nothing but talk in generalities and party line rhetoric in bashing liberals, and then some liberal members respond by doing the same damn thing from the opposite side of the spectrum. Or vice versa when the thread is started by a liberal posting the same type of nonsense.

Thus threads here are no better than the talking head shows like the O'reilly Factor or Scarborough Country in that all their is to read is the same, partisan rhetoric, generalizations and insults over and over and over again.

And its frustrating as people like myke and thrust have shown in more level headed posts that they're better than that and can discuss issues in a constructive and intelligent manner. Yet to often they take the easy route and fall back on rhetoric and insults.

But that's all I say on the topic and I'll just go back to reading and posting in Vs. sporadically as it's really just not woth my attention 95% of the time.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The problem with this forum that I was getting at is that we have conservative blow hards who do nothing but talk in generalities and party line rhetoric in bashing liberals, and then some liberal members respond by doing the same damn thing from the opposite side of the spectrum.[/QUOTE]

Thrust for example much like HH spends most of his time calling well the overwhelming majority of this country commies, railing against "Liberals" that are by and large figments of right wing fantasies. Mostly the cons here spend their time pretending they never heard of Bush or frankly what has been passing as conservative policy for a generation.

So yeah you lost me when you said a pox on both there houses since I do not see any liberals here spewing for example Fascist at cons every day and then running away when called on it.
 
Oh I think one side is clearly worse in this aspect than the other, I'm just saying the way to fight it isn't with rhetoric and insults, but with either well thought out posts or simply ignoring stupid posts that don't warrant a response.

The occasional outburst is fine, we all have tempers and can only take so much before lashing out. But I'd rather fight cries of "commie" with articulate responses, or simply ignore them until these attention whore blowhards with nothing of substance to say quit posting when they don't get the responses they crave from their flamebait posts.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Oh I think one side is clearly worse in this aspect than the other, I'm just saying the way to fight it isn't with rhetoric and insults, but with either well thought out posts or simply ignoring stupid posts that don't warrant a response.

The occasional outburst is fine, we all have tempers and can only take so much before lashing out. But I'd rather fight cries of "commie" with articulate responses, or simply ignore them until these attention whore blowhards with nothing of substance to say quit posting when they don't get the responses they crave from their flamebait posts.[/QUOTE]

Good luck with that.
 
Obama made my point much more eloquently than I ever could in his speech tonight.

But what I will not do is suggest that the senator takes his positions for political purposes. Because one of the things that we have to change in our politics is the idea that people cannot disagree without challenging each other's character and each other's patriotism.

The times are too serious, the stakes are too high for this same partisan playbook. So let us agree that patriotism has no party. I love this country, and so do you, and so does John McCain. The men and women who serve in our battlefields may be Democrats and Republicans and independents, but they have fought together and bled together and some died together under the same proud flag. They have not served a Red America or a Blue America -- they have served the United States of America.

So I've got news for you, John McCain. We all put our country first.

America, our work will not be easy. The challenges we face require tough choices, and Democrats as well as Republicans will need to cast off the worn-out ideas and politics of the past. For part of what has been lost these past eight years can't just be measured by lost wages or bigger trade deficits. What has also been lost is our sense of common purpose. That's what we have to restore.

We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country. The reality of gun ownership may be different for hunters in rural Ohio than they are for those plagued by gang-violence in Cleveland, but don't tell me we can't uphold the Second Amendment while keeping AK-47s out of the hands of criminals. I know there are differences on same-sex marriage, but surely we can agree that our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters deserve to visit the person they love in the hospital and to live lives free of discrimination. You know, passions may fly on immigration, but I don't know anyone who benefits when a mother is separated from her infant child or an employer undercuts American wages by hiring illegal workers. But this, too, is part of America's promise -- the promise of a democracy where we can find the strength and grace to bridge divides and unite in common effort.

I know there are those who dismiss such beliefs as happy talk. They claim that our insistence on something larger, something firmer and more honest in our public life is just a Trojan Horse for higher taxes and the abandonment of traditional values. And that's to be expected. Because if you don't have any fresh ideas, then you use stale tactics to scare voters. If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.
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Essentially people on both sides of the spectrum need to drop the blatant, blind, sheepish adherence to partisan issue, dig down deep and actually think about the nuances of issues rather than seeing them as black and white along long defined and entrenched party lines. And they need to come to the table (or forum in this case) and discuss them intelligently without party rhetoric and insults, personal attacks and general assholish attitudes towards every topic of debate and everyone with an opposing viewpoint.

While many will no doubt continue to post rhetoric and flamebait, responding in kind or with personal attacks is just giving them what they want. Attention and to see threads on topics that they disagree with derailed.

I know this will fall largely on deaf ears as it's preaching to the choir of those who give a shit, and will just be ignored by attention whores on both sides who come only to troll partisan bullshit and add have no intent of adding anything of substance.

But hey, change can't happen if no one tries!
 
If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

Doesn't Obama try to promote the McSame idea? Sure, I agree that both of them should stop being douches, but Obama's compliments and "let's be friends" message from his speeches fly out the window when it is advertisement time. He resorts to painting McCain == Bush, when we all know it isn't true. Sure, they share some ideas, but Obama shares some plans with communists, but that doesn't mean Obama == Marx, so to speak.

For some reason neither candidate can win if he just acts like himself, but both of them have stepped up and acted like idiots. McCain has a pretty good conservative issues with his "maverick" streak, and Obama is a liberal guy. The problem is that they need independent voters, and neither of them is going to secure a whole lot by being himself, hence the douchebaggery.

I may vote for Obama and "hope" for the best in November, but I won't be happy about it. I just hope that once this little show is behind us that whoever is elected mans up and actually does something.
 
[quote name='SpiderLocMTGO']If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

Doesn't Obama try to promote the McSame idea? Sure, I agree that both of them should stop being douches, but Obama's compliments and "let's be friends" message from his speeches fly out the window when it is advertisement time. He resorts to painting McCain == Bush, when we all know it isn't true. Sure, they share some ideas, but Obama shares some plans with communists, but that doesn't mean Obama == Marx, so to speak.

For some reason neither candidate can win if he just acts like himself, but both of them have stepped up and acted like idiots. McCain has a pretty good conservative issues with his "maverick" streak, and Obama is a liberal guy. The problem is that they need independent voters, and neither of them is going to secure a whole lot by being himself, hence the douchebaggery.

I may vote for Obama and "hope" for the best in November, but I won't be happy about it. I just hope that once this little show is behind us that whoever is elected mans up and actually does something.[/QUOTE]

Obama has been attacked for being too popular, been attacked via preacher, via wife, via flag pin, via experience, via work history. I want to if McCain is going to put his planned policies out on the table like Obama did tonight.
 
[quote name='SpiderLocMTGO']If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from.

Doesn't Obama try to promote the McSame idea? .[/QUOTE]

I think what Obama is talking about it the personal attacks, calling him a celebrity, not being patriotic because he stopped wearing the flag pin for a while, and all the other non-sense that Thomas already listed.

By saying McCain has supported Bush's policies 90% of the time, he's attacking McCain on the issues. Not attacking McCain's character etc. That's the stuff that bothers me.

I have no problems with ads attacking McCain for voting with Bush, thinking the economy is strong, for his misguided continuing support for the Iraq war etc. etc.

That is how you should campaign. Attack the other persons positions and show how your's are better. Keep the petty, personal stuff out of it.
 
[quote name='level1online']Please go to http://kucinich.us and sign the petition. Thanks.[/quote]

Like I'm going to put my name on a government list.

Come on, level1, you're smarter than that.

Besides, Bush can be investigated in less than 3 months.
 
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