Let's Define Political Correctness

mykevermin

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I'm familiar with the phrase, I use it often, I hear it often - but to be honest, after hearing a radio bit on NPR, I'm now uncertain about the definition of "political correctness."

I've always thought of it in terms of understanding phrases and actions that are offensive, and not using them.

So I say "African American" and not "negro" or "$$$$er."

So I call women "women" and not "bitches" or "cunts."

I use words like "gay" and "lesbian" and not "$$$" or "dyke."

You get the idea.

The concept is troublesome when they feel it's "forced" on them - that they can freely use a word like "$$$$er" (coupled with the pitiful counterargument that "blacks call each other that all the time!"). They are, I remind them, free to use any word they want, even $$$$er. They are, however, responsible for every word they say. Like yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, or "fuck JESUS! SATAN LIVES!" in a church on Sunday morning. You're going to have consequences for what you say. That's political correctness.

But this idea isn't the entirety of what people consider "political correctness." There's also this (and here's where I start to disagree by the extension of the word's meaning) idea that any attempt to stifle good performance and also uplift the undeserving is "politically correct." Like in the case of 9-year old fastball phenom Jericho Scott, other players and parents in the league didn't want him pitching because his fastball was *too* fast. So he and his team are punished - so this is "politically correct" by virtue of not wanting to offend/harm the majority of people at the expense of the person/people who *excel* at this very thing. Punishing success to make others feel better.

I think this is something other than political correctness. These moments get into an idea of community groupthink and, really, power of the majority (or vocal minorty) to get their way. I see where people would call this "PC" by account of working at the expense of the excellent to assist the incapable - but I also don't see it.

Maybe it's because moments like these I see as guided by idiot parents' selfishly thinking of their little shits and their little shits alone. Like how in Knothole (my father-in-law coaches), they no longer allow "smacktalk" of ANY SORT by the team. No "fuck you, pitcher," no "your mother's a whore," but also not even a single "HEEEEEEEYYBATTABATTABATTABATTA." Really.

I don't really see anything that is comparable to language uses of PC early in this post. Not because one involves race/gender/sexual relations and one involves baseball. But because, I suppose, our society encourages differentiation and competition, and that's being stifled by throwing out that which makes us different, or makes us realize we're better or worse than others at some things. Which doesn't happen, I feel, in a hierarchical way among the first order of groups (straight is not measurably better than gay, for example) but does exist in the latter (competition shows that I am better than you by virtue of runs, and both you and I should be able to voice our pleasure/disgust with that fact).
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
I've always thought of it in terms of understanding phrases and actions that are offensive, and not using them.

So I say "African American" and not "negro" or "$$$$er."

So I call women "women" and not "bitches" or "cunts."

I use words like "gay" and "lesbian" and not "$$$" or "dyke."
[/QUOTE]

That's what it is. And I think you can't ignore the political part of it. They're things a politician could never say and get away with.

For instance, if McCain call's Bush an "asshole" or some other insult, it would be a story but it wouldn't do much damange. Hell it would probably do good in the long run in that case!

But if he got caught calling Obama or Jesse Jackson or any African American at ****er he would be done for.

So politically incorrect is something that has become completely unacceptable to say in a society, to the point a campaigning politician could never get away with it.

Not just any old insult, swearing etc. that may be frowend upon.
 
I always thought that "politically correct" meant saying/doing things in line with your politics. If you think people are equal, you don't call black people $$$$ers, etc. The phrase has just been killed and stretched to mean almost anything.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I always thought that "politically correct" meant saying/doing things in line with your politics. [/QUOTE]

It's not what's in line with your politics, it's what's in line with current social norms.

Something is political incorrect to say because it offends most other people in your society.

If it was just up to your own politics, there would be no discussion over politically correct/incorrect as everyone could say whatever they wanted with no repercussions.

It's based on society standards and the repurcussions for saying something politically incorrect are being shamed by larger society.
 
I talked to my dad pretty extensively yesterday, something I rarely do. I really wish I were joking, but here are a few things he said...



"You're gonna vote for Osama? [Yes] ...don't you think he's Muslim, though?"

[following a rant about welfare] "You really want a $$$$er leading this country?"

[after some talk about equality] "Your grandpa told me something one time that's really stuck with me. He said: 'Stay around a $$$$er long enough, they'll always show their true colors.'"


I don't mean to offend anyone with any of this. I was just appalled and this seemed like a somewhat fitting place to share.
 
[quote name='dopa345']Verbal fascism.[/QUOTE]

Elaborate, please.

EDIT: That's an interesting anecdote, Koggit. I do believe there are plenty of people who are racist, either consciously or unconsciously. That said, people's willingness to be overtly racist in this day and age fascinates me (since I mostly believe in the color-blind racism maxim Eduardo Bonilla-Silva argues).
 
In my opinion, political correctness is simply the shift in attitude where the perception of the listener/reader trumps the true intent of the speaker/writer and the speaker/writer no longer gets the benefit of the doubt. It's the consequence of our society's nature to become hypersensitive to anything that can be construed as offensive at the expense of true freedom of speech. That's what I mean by verbal fascism.

As a benign example, some people find the "slow children" traffic signs offensive since it could be construed that the signs label the children in the area as "cognitively" slow, even though that is clearly not the true meaning of the sign.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']EDIT: That's an interesting anecdote, Koggit. I do believe there are plenty of people who are racist, either consciously or unconsciously. That said, people's willingness to be overtly racist in this day and age fascinates me (since I mostly believe in the color-blind racism maxim Eduardo Bonilla-Silva argues).[/quote]

You should talk to my dad, father-in-law, stepmother, mother or stepfather about Obama. You'll get your daily requirement of racism from any of them.
 
It's really weird down there. People don't really hide racism, and it exists on both sides -- populations are about 50/50 white and black and both are blatantly racist.

The stereotypical white trash / hick / southerner has a mullet, wears a wife beater, is racist, on welfare, popping out babies, etc. Most northerners dislike these 'hicks' because they're uneducated, lazy, racist assholes -- but the strange part about it is northerners never seem to acknowledge the black equivalent of the white hicks, there are just as many blacks in similar situations. It's these two low class groups of each race that fuel the racism. Blacks hate whites because of those hicks, whites hate blacks because of the blacks that live/act like hicks. Both groups are racist and both groups are guilty of causing the racism.

Some people think racism will eventually become a thing of the past, but I don't -- not unless we reach a point where our economy is strong enough for those "trashy" groups to be an insignificant portion of those populations.


But that's all very, very far from the topic of discussion...
 
Racism is completely cultural based. It has nothing to do with economy. Until we get to a point where it seems completely foreign to people to distinguish themselves from each other based on skin color then we will have racism regardless of how much money people make.
 
[quote name='Koggit']A huge part of culture is defined by economic circumstance... that's why we have words like socioeconomic...[/QUOTE]

You're reaching...
 
[quote name='dopa345']In my opinion, political correctness is simply the shift in attitude where the perception of the listener/reader trumps the true intent of the speaker/writer and the speaker/writer no longer gets the benefit of the doubt. It's the consequence of our society's nature to become hypersensitive to anything that can be construed as offensive at the expense of true freedom of speech. That's what I mean by verbal fascism.

As a benign example, some people find the "slow children" traffic signs offensive since it could be construed that the signs label the children in the area as "cognitively" slow, even though that is clearly not the true meaning of the sign.[/QUOTE]


Those are cases of political correctness gone too far. I don't think the same "hypersensitivity" comes to social frowning of racial slurs, gay bashing etc. Some things represent cultural changes for the better that promote equality. I'd have a hard time taking anyone who said frowning at the use of the word ****er was "verbal facism" very seriously.

But like any thing, it can be taken so far.


[quote name='RedvsBlue']Racism is completely cultural based. It has nothing to do with economy. Until we get to a point where it seems completely foreign to people to distinguish themselves from each other based on skin color then we will have racism regardless of how much money people make.[/QUOTE]

I think that's partly true.

But education has a lot to do with it. There is much less racism among the highly educated. Part of learning not to see people as different is being educated, exposed to the diversity of college etc. Which is something poor people who are lucky to graduate high school don't have exposure to. Even worse in areas that are mostly white or mostly black etc.

So there is some correlation between culture and education. And in turn between culture and economic status as highly educated people are going to be better off financially.
 
[quote name='RedvsBlue']You're reaching...[/QUOTE]

I've seen a lot of intense racism on both sides and it seems deeply rooted in social aspects related to poverty -- welfare, crime, theft, etc. What are you basing your claims on? I really don't think it has absolutely anything to do with "those people are different than me" -- my dad doesn't hate Hispanics, Asians, etc. Only blacks. Why? Because he associates them with a certain archetype: a negative one, just as those blacks associate him with the white trash they've known.

I'm really curious what you base your beliefs on, though. Something you read in a book? Something someone told you? What have you seen that has shaped your beliefs, making you such an authority?
 
I'm not sure how this thread so quickly devolved into another racial discussion, but I digress...

There is this billboard near where I live on the interstate that simply shows a giant burning American flag and a caption that reads: "Political Correctness is destroying your country". I've often thought about what it means, and I have no idea who's responsible for it.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Those are cases of political correctness gone too far. I don't think the same "hypersensitivity" comes to social frowning of racial slurs, gay bashing etc. Some things represent cultural changes for the better that promote equality. I'd have a hard time taking anyone who said frowning at the use of the word ****er was "verbal facism" very seriously.

But like any thing, it can be taken so far.

[/quote]

But the example you give is not political correctness. When someone uses those terms, their intent is clearly to exhibit a racist sentiment so interpreting that way is correct. However, when one has to step on eggshells in their speech, to the point that calling a black presidential candidate "articulate" can be construed as racist, I find that ridiculous. The fact that these types of situations could potentially ruin someone's career is what I find deplorable.
 
Meh. I find covert/subconscious racism nearly as grating as overt racism, so I have no problem with people getting frowned upon for calling an African-American presidential candiate articulate or well spoken.

He's a politician running for president, of course he's articulate! Don't act surprised that he's articulate just because he doesn't speak in ebonics like you assume all blacks do. That's my response to such situations.

At least overt racists calling him ****er make no attempt to hide their ignorance or deny their racism.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']He's a politician running for president, of course he's articulate![/QUOTE]

Not that I disagree with color-blind/subtle/subconscious racism in the slightest. But,

georgebush20frowningnj4.jpg
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Meh. I find covert/subconscious racism nearly as grating as overt racism, so I have no problem with people getting frowned upon for calling an African-American presidential candiate articulate or well spoken.

He's a politician running for president, of course he's articulate! Don't act surprised that he's articulate just because he doesn't speak in ebonics like you assume all blacks do. That's my response to such situations.

At least overt racists calling him ****er make no attempt to hide their ignorance or deny their racism.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? If you criticize an African-American, you're deemed a racist and now if you praise an African-American, you're a racist because it's assumed to be a back-handed compliment. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
 
[quote name='dopa345']Are you kidding me? If you criticize an African-American, you're deemed a racist and now if you praise an African-American, you're a racist because it's assumed to be a back-handed compliment. This is exactly what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]

I see both sides here. I don't think calling someone "articulate" is an insult, but to praise someone for possessing a characteristic that should be, bare minimum, expected of a person wanting to occupy a position, is certainly misguided.

It's not flat-out praise in every case, per se, but, yes, backhanded compliments (whether intentional or not). Saying Obama has brilliant policy proposals, the energy, the global goodwill, etc., which make him qualified to be president - that, IMO, is fine.

On the other hand, if I say "he sure does clean up real good!" is not relevant, and yes, racist as well.

If I say Sarah Palin probably has great knockers, that's a compliment, but neither one related to her qualifications and also one quite offensive. So, yes, it's praise, but it's certainly not PC.

(note that I don't have an opinion on Sarah Palin's knockers, but I have noticed other folks make remarks about her attractiveness; I'm not really one of those people, and am just using this as an example.
 
Myke hit it on the head dopa. That's what I was getting at. It's not just a backhanded compliment because it's aimed at a black man, it's because it's aimed at a highly educated black man running for president.

People shouldn't be surprised and feel compelled to say he's "articulate." Of course he is. He got a great education through hardwork, rather than being born with a silver spoon in his mouth and barely getting through undergrad like Bush.

Saying he's "articulate" is an insult tinged with covert racism as the only person who would say such a thing is somone who is surprised to hear a black person sound so intelligent.

Bill Clinton gave a fucking fantastic speech the other day, you didn't hear anyone say "wow he sure was articulate!"

Compliments for things that are a bare minimum for being a normal, reasonably intelligent human being are only going to be taken as back handed complements. Particularly when the person in question is highly educated and running for president.
 
[quote name='Koggit']I talked to my dad pretty extensively yesterday, something I rarely do. I really wish I were joking, but here are a few things he said...



"You're gonna vote for Osama? [Yes] ...don't you think he's Muslim, though?"

[following a rant about welfare] "You really want a $$$$er leading this country?"

[after some talk about equality] "Your grandpa told me something one time that's really stuck with me. He said: 'Stay around a $$$$er long enough, they'll always show their true colors.'"


I don't mean to offend anyone with any of this. I was just appalled and this seemed like a somewhat fitting place to share.[/quote]

LOL :rofl: Reminds of the time I was having a conversation with the Lead Anchor man at my job (spanish language tv station), he was pulling everybody aside individually and saying, "You ain't voting for that f*cking n*gger Obama, are you? McCain's my man, he's the best choice for this country, baby!"

I was like, "I ain't voting for either of those assholes. Now get that McCain bullshit out of my face!"

...
...

Anyways, one time he pulled me aside, as we were over looking the traffic from our building, he says, "See all these Mexicans? F*ck all these Mexicans!!! We have to keep them down... I act on the air like I care about these people, but they're nothing but basura (trash)."

I respond, "WE??? I'm not trying to keep anybody down, man, do that shit on your own time. Speaking of which... you do realize that this is the exact same scenario with white people and their "news"? CNN & Fox don't give a f*ck about their "people" either. And you just admitted to being a hypocrite just like all the rest. Man! You're an asshole!"

He responds, "shut up! you conspiracy ku-ku for coco puffs jackass!"

So we stop, stare at each for about a minute.... then bust out in a huge "hardy-har-har" laugh, and we move on like nothing happened. :D
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']He's a politician running for president, of course he's articulate![/quote]

I think it was unfair to pile on this comment, maybe he meant charismatic and said articulate, everyone's so damn PC sensitive these days.

And Dubya just goes to show that you don't have to have a way with words to get in the office. Heck even McCain does some old man muttering every now and then.
 
[quote name='camoor']I think it was unfair to pile on this comment, maybe he meant charismatic and said articulate, everyone's so damn PC sensitive these days.
[/QUOTE]

True. I was just using it as an example of the classic case of someone being surprised by a "well spoken" black person and then trying to say it wasn't subconscious racism. If you didn't have some stereotype in your head that most black people are poorly spoken you wouldn't be surprised to the point to have to make that kind of comment.

And yes people are sensitive these days. But there are just to many people who open their mouths without giving any thought to what they are going to say. And too many people who claim not to be racist but still have many covert racist beliefs and tendencies.
 
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