Liberals Bar declaration of Independence
- Thread starter Scrubking
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One of the unfortunate side effects of "Seperation of Church and State" I'm afraid. Still though, both parties responsible for this and the gay book banning should come to their senses and understand the society we now live in.
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.
sblymnlcrymnl
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[quote name='Ledhed']One of the unfortunate side effects of "Seperation of Church and State" I'm afraid. Still though, both parties responsible for this and the gay book banning should come to their senses and understand the society we now live in.
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.[/quote]
Are you thinking of the emancipation proclaimation?
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.[/quote]
Are you thinking of the emancipation proclaimation?
Drocket
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This would be a topic I'd like to know about bit more about. From the material that the teach is complaining about not being able to use, it sounds to me rather like he's been going out of his way to teach students that the US is a 'Christian nation', in which case he quite rightly should be reigned in. At the same time, though, I do think its important that students get a true idea of history, which sometimes includes people making decisions (some right, some wrong) based on religious principles.
I rather suspect that this particular teacher didn't include the fact that quite a few of our founding fathers made the argument that slavery was OK because black people were the cursed children of Cain (God's curse made their skin turn black.) That's just a simple historical fact, though not one that makes religion look good. What I'm saying is, if you want to bring religion into the classroom, you have to do so fairly - the good, the bad and the ugly. Not just the parts that make your own side look good.
I rather suspect that this particular teacher didn't include the fact that quite a few of our founding fathers made the argument that slavery was OK because black people were the cursed children of Cain (God's curse made their skin turn black.) That's just a simple historical fact, though not one that makes religion look good. What I'm saying is, if you want to bring religion into the classroom, you have to do so fairly - the good, the bad and the ugly. Not just the parts that make your own side look good.
Trancendental
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I must agree Drocket, you can certainly read between the lines to know that there is more to this story then this blurb. For example, this teacher is banned from distributing those materials, but it does not say how all teachers are restricted (if at all). Also, for some reason this man's Christianity is an issue...
Anyway I was listening to Bill Oreilly go on about how this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and how the awful liberal media (you mean the Jews Bill?) are always trying to undermine this "fact".
Fact is, most of the founders were Deists who were schooled in classic philosophy and English law. You really think Masons believe all of the standard Christian claptrap?
Anyway I was listening to Bill Oreilly go on about how this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and how the awful liberal media (you mean the Jews Bill?) are always trying to undermine this "fact".
Fact is, most of the founders were Deists who were schooled in classic philosophy and English law. You really think Masons believe all of the standard Christian claptrap?
Scrubking
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It's funny how you people say "oh look he's a Christian so he must have been breaking the rules and teaching about God in school".
The guy was just teaching the kids that God did play some kind of role in the founding of this country evidenced by the undeniable evidence in those documents. It IS part of history do don't try to cover it up or erase it.
The guy was just teaching the kids that God did play some kind of role in the founding of this country evidenced by the undeniable evidence in those documents. It IS part of history do don't try to cover it up or erase it.
Trancendental
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[quote name='Scrubking']...The guy was just teaching the kids that God did play some kind of role in the founding of this country evidenced by the undeniable evidence in those documents...[/quote]
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.
Drocket
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[quote name='Scrubking']It's funny how you people say "oh look he's a Christian so he must have been breaking the rules and teaching about God in school". [/quote]
No, I'm looking at the fact that his quotes and the materials he wanted to use seem rather questionable:
"It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men"
No, its not. Its a fact that SOME of our founders were religious men - but not all of them. Even out of the ones that were religious, some of them were utter scumbags. Just from the quote above, he sounds to me like he's doing the usual 'the founding fathers were good, and they were Christian, therefore Christianity is good' thing that religious nuts invariable do. Not only is their logic bad, they don't even get their premises right.
Then you take a quick look at the matierial that he wanted to use. First off, its rather unusual material to be used in a fifth-grade history class in the first place ( John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania.") By what I'm sure is sheer coincidence, he's happened to pick material by highly-religious founding fathers, but more than that, only the ones that show religion in a positive light. No "God thinks slavery is good" founding fathers on that list.
The fact that he thinks the world is out to get his because he's Christian seals the deal that's he's a religious nut out to indoctrinate impressionable young kits. Just by reading between the lines in that rather positive article leads to a whole host of questions about what exactly the guy was doing.
No, I'm looking at the fact that his quotes and the materials he wanted to use seem rather questionable:
"It's a fact of American history that our founders were religious men"
No, its not. Its a fact that SOME of our founders were religious men - but not all of them. Even out of the ones that were religious, some of them were utter scumbags. Just from the quote above, he sounds to me like he's doing the usual 'the founding fathers were good, and they were Christian, therefore Christianity is good' thing that religious nuts invariable do. Not only is their logic bad, they don't even get their premises right.
Then you take a quick look at the matierial that he wanted to use. First off, its rather unusual material to be used in a fifth-grade history class in the first place ( John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania.") By what I'm sure is sheer coincidence, he's happened to pick material by highly-religious founding fathers, but more than that, only the ones that show religion in a positive light. No "God thinks slavery is good" founding fathers on that list.
The fact that he thinks the world is out to get his because he's Christian seals the deal that's he's a religious nut out to indoctrinate impressionable young kits. Just by reading between the lines in that rather positive article leads to a whole host of questions about what exactly the guy was doing.
Inmate #10943
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Absolutely amazing!
The ole "Separation of Church and State" BS.
"Why we can't teach about the DoI because God is in it!
We can't say the pledge of Allegiance because God is in it!
and....ban the Boy Scouts....get the Chaplains out of the military....change the name of every town and city in the U.S. that has any religious significance to its name.....imprison everyone in Congress for praying..... burn the Bible....destroy the Ten Commandments.........dig up the bodies of your parents and grandparents if they're buried in a religious cemetary...and if they're not dead and they're religious - DISOWN THEM........annul all religious weddings.....refuse to touch any money with "God" on it......never swear using God's name.....absolutely never accept a Christmas (shudder) gift......and rejoice in the fact that when you die there is nothingness.........."
Excerpts from the soon to be published "Guidelines for the Anti-God Nazi Party"
The ole "Separation of Church and State" BS.
"Why we can't teach about the DoI because God is in it!
We can't say the pledge of Allegiance because God is in it!
and....ban the Boy Scouts....get the Chaplains out of the military....change the name of every town and city in the U.S. that has any religious significance to its name.....imprison everyone in Congress for praying..... burn the Bible....destroy the Ten Commandments.........dig up the bodies of your parents and grandparents if they're buried in a religious cemetary...and if they're not dead and they're religious - DISOWN THEM........annul all religious weddings.....refuse to touch any money with "God" on it......never swear using God's name.....absolutely never accept a Christmas (shudder) gift......and rejoice in the fact that when you die there is nothingness.........."
Excerpts from the soon to be published "Guidelines for the Anti-God Nazi Party"
SwiftyLeZar
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Alot of times Christians like to play the victim of a cruel, secular society out to destroy all morality and throw the country into a vacuum of Bible-burning Christ-haters.
They talk of a hidden "homosexual agenda" (ironic as it is for these Christians to speak of others having a hidden agenda) that is out to destroy "family values" forever and ever. But that's just one example.
Nobody's out to destroy Christianity or morality (two completely separate things, might I add - the Bible's moral code cribs heavily from Hinduism, Islam, and contemporary Greek philosophy - I fail to see how Christians can claim the country was based on Judeo-Christian values when so few of said values are even original).
The Christians hold the majority. There is no secret conspiracy from Hollywood or anyone else to take them down. Pretty much every president in the history of this country has been a Christian. They rule the country with an iron fist and they aren't a group of downtrodden "little guys" that everyone is always trying to oppress. However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians), sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics).
They talk of a hidden "homosexual agenda" (ironic as it is for these Christians to speak of others having a hidden agenda) that is out to destroy "family values" forever and ever. But that's just one example.
Nobody's out to destroy Christianity or morality (two completely separate things, might I add - the Bible's moral code cribs heavily from Hinduism, Islam, and contemporary Greek philosophy - I fail to see how Christians can claim the country was based on Judeo-Christian values when so few of said values are even original).
The Christians hold the majority. There is no secret conspiracy from Hollywood or anyone else to take them down. Pretty much every president in the history of this country has been a Christian. They rule the country with an iron fist and they aren't a group of downtrodden "little guys" that everyone is always trying to oppress. However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians), sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics).
Inmate #10943
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[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']They talk of a hidden "homosexual agenda" (ironic as it is for these Christians to speak of others having a hidden agenda) that is out to destroy "family values" forever and ever. But that's just one example.[/quote]
Ridiculous!
I have never in my entire life ever heard any Christian talk of a "hidden homosexual agenda"! Period!
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians), sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics).[/quote]
This is absolutely the most slanderous and hateful false accusations I've seen regarding Christians. I really take exception to these remarks. You are an outrageously anti-Christian Bigot. You are exactly everything you accuse Christians of being.
Ridiculous!
I have never in my entire life ever heard any Christian talk of a "hidden homosexual agenda"! Period!
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians), sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics).[/quote]
This is absolutely the most slanderous and hateful false accusations I've seen regarding Christians. I really take exception to these remarks. You are an outrageously anti-Christian Bigot. You are exactly everything you accuse Christians of being.
sblymnlcrymnl
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[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='SwiftyLeZar']They talk of a hidden "homosexual agenda" (ironic as it is for these Christians to speak of others having a hidden agenda) that is out to destroy "family values" forever and ever. But that's just one example.[/quote]
Ridiculous!
I have never in my entire life ever heard any Christian talk of a "hidden homosexual agenda"! Period!
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians), sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics).[/quote]
This is absolutely the most slanderous and hateful false accusations I've seen regarding Christians. I really take exception to these remarks. You are an outrageously anti-Christian Bigot. You are exactly everything you accuse Christians of being.[/quote]
:? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.
Ridiculous!
I have never in my entire life ever heard any Christian talk of a "hidden homosexual agenda"! Period!
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians), sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics).[/quote]
This is absolutely the most slanderous and hateful false accusations I've seen regarding Christians. I really take exception to these remarks. You are an outrageously anti-Christian Bigot. You are exactly everything you accuse Christians of being.[/quote]
:? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.
Scrubking
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[quote name='camoor'][quote name='Scrubking']...The guy was just teaching the kids that God did play some kind of role in the founding of this country evidenced by the undeniable evidence in those documents...[/quote]
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.[/quote]
Your hatred is blinding you to what is being said. I said that God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision. That means that they had some sort of religious beliefs, etc and those beliefs obviously played a role in their establishment of the government - not that God came down from heaven you idiot.
Regardless of the teacher's motives the fact that God or religion or whatever played a role in those documents is part of factual history and needs to be taught along with everything else.
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.[/quote]
Your hatred is blinding you to what is being said. I said that God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision. That means that they had some sort of religious beliefs, etc and those beliefs obviously played a role in their establishment of the government - not that God came down from heaven you idiot.
Regardless of the teacher's motives the fact that God or religion or whatever played a role in those documents is part of factual history and needs to be taught along with everything else.
jmcc
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This really shouldn't be censored from schools. Kids need to learn how religion got it's hooks in our country early on and has been eroding it's freedoms ever since.
PS: this argument is STILL over due to Godwin's Law being invoked. All this extra conversation is moot at this point.
PS: this argument is STILL over due to Godwin's Law being invoked. All this extra conversation is moot at this point.
Pylis
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[quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='Scrubking']...The guy was just teaching the kids that God did play some kind of role in the founding of this country evidenced by the undeniable evidence in those documents...[/quote]
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.[/quote]
Your hatred is blinding you to what is being said. I said that God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision. That means that they had some sort of religious beliefs, etc and those beliefs obviously played a role in their establishment of the government - not that God came down from heaven you idiot.
Regardless of the teacher's motives the fact that God or religion or whatever played a role in those documents is part of factual history and needs to be taught along with everything else.[/quote]
Well, yeah, I understood what ScrubKing's statement meant, and I'm certain that Camoor did, too. Don't pick on semantics.
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.[/quote]
Your hatred is blinding you to what is being said. I said that God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision. That means that they had some sort of religious beliefs, etc and those beliefs obviously played a role in their establishment of the government - not that God came down from heaven you idiot.
Regardless of the teacher's motives the fact that God or religion or whatever played a role in those documents is part of factual history and needs to be taught along with everything else.[/quote]
Well, yeah, I understood what ScrubKing's statement meant, and I'm certain that Camoor did, too. Don't pick on semantics.
jmcc
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[quote name='Scrubking']
You mean just like liberals want to take away our freedom to say Merry Christmas??
[/quote]
Yes, just like that retarded example you think you provided. Also, other made-up stuff, like liberals also want to force all women to get abortions. :SNAPPY EMOTICON:
You mean just like liberals want to take away our freedom to say Merry Christmas??
[/quote]Yes, just like that retarded example you think you provided. Also, other made-up stuff, like liberals also want to force all women to get abortions. :SNAPPY EMOTICON:
Inmate #10943
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[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'] :? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.[/quote]
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.
jmcc
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[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'] :? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.[/quote]
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
And anecdotal evidence is relevent why?
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
And anecdotal evidence is relevent why?
sblymnlcrymnl
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[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'] :? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.[/quote]
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
You must not watch much TV then.
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
You must not watch much TV then.
Trancendental
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[quote name='Pylis'][quote name='Scrubking'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='Scrubking']...The guy was just teaching the kids that God did play some kind of role in the founding of this country evidenced by the undeniable evidence in those documents...[/quote]
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.[/quote]
Your hatred is blinding you to what is being said. I said that God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision. That means that they had some sort of religious beliefs, etc and those beliefs obviously played a role in their establishment of the government - not that God came down from heaven you idiot.
Regardless of the teacher's motives the fact that God or religion or whatever played a role in those documents is part of factual history and needs to be taught along with everything else.[/quote]
Well, yeah, I understood what ScrubKing's statement meant, and I'm certain that Camoor did, too. Don't pick on semantics.[/quote]
Hey, some guy says god played a role in the founding of America you bet I'm going to comment. I really couldn't understand Scrub's post, when someone says "God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision", the meaning that is inherent is that "God" is an existing character who actively changed the decision making process of the founding fathers. It is a decidedly different view then the one that postulates that the belief of the founding fathers in a god played a role in their decisions.
And I should point out that your "Christian" buddy is the one who resorted to ad hominem attacks. Seems like he doesn't have a very "Christian" attitude towards anyone who doesn't share his viewpoint.
Great, now we have citizens thinking that God came down from the heavens and pitched in to help found the country. Maybe a belief in God (and not a God literally ripped from the Bible - remember they were Deists) influenced some of the decisions of the founding fathers, but nowhere is there "undeniable evidence" that a God was actively involved in founding the country.
As far as the article is concerned, it is a small blurb designed to elicit an emotional response. I'm just pointing out that the full story has not yet been told.[/quote]
Your hatred is blinding you to what is being said. I said that God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision. That means that they had some sort of religious beliefs, etc and those beliefs obviously played a role in their establishment of the government - not that God came down from heaven you idiot.
Regardless of the teacher's motives the fact that God or religion or whatever played a role in those documents is part of factual history and needs to be taught along with everything else.[/quote]
Well, yeah, I understood what ScrubKing's statement meant, and I'm certain that Camoor did, too. Don't pick on semantics.[/quote]
Hey, some guy says god played a role in the founding of America you bet I'm going to comment. I really couldn't understand Scrub's post, when someone says "God played some sort of role in the founding father's decision", the meaning that is inherent is that "God" is an existing character who actively changed the decision making process of the founding fathers. It is a decidedly different view then the one that postulates that the belief of the founding fathers in a god played a role in their decisions.
And I should point out that your "Christian" buddy is the one who resorted to ad hominem attacks. Seems like he doesn't have a very "Christian" attitude towards anyone who doesn't share his viewpoint.
sblymnlcrymnl
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Don't be that guy.
MrBadExample
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[quote name='Inmate #10943']I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
Just because you have limited experience and knowledge, that doesn't mean that christians haven't complained about the "hidden homosexual agenda." Google Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Lou Sheldon for starters.
As for the original story: Was the teacher going outside the proscribed curricculum? Some religious people like to play martyr and subconsciously that could be what he was doing - start introducing more religion in order to be prosecuted. I'm sure he's already a hero to the PTL Club crowd.
Just because you have limited experience and knowledge, that doesn't mean that christians haven't complained about the "hidden homosexual agenda." Google Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Lou Sheldon for starters.
As for the original story: Was the teacher going outside the proscribed curricculum? Some religious people like to play martyr and subconsciously that could be what he was doing - start introducing more religion in order to be prosecuted. I'm sure he's already a hero to the PTL Club crowd.
ZarathosNY
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[quote name='Scrubking']Williams asserts in the lawsuit that since May he has been required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to Vidmar for approval, and that the principal will not permit him to use any that contain references to God or Christianity.
Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."
I guess books aren't the only thing getting banned huh.[/quote]
Scrubking, did you actually read what you posted? The Declaration of Independence was not banned. Certain excerpts were. This is more of the right wing crying wolf. If you want more follow-up just go here.
http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/stevenscreek.htm#DETAILS
Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."
I guess books aren't the only thing getting banned huh.
[/quote]Scrubking, did you actually read what you posted? The Declaration of Independence was not banned. Certain excerpts were. This is more of the right wing crying wolf. If you want more follow-up just go here.
http://www.eriposte.com/philosophy/fundamentalism/stevenscreek.htm#DETAILS
Ikohn4ever
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[quote name='Inmate #10943'][quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'] :? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.[/quote]
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
Yeah well when I lived in Texas with my family our neighbor found out we were Jewish and told my mom she was surprised we didnt have horns. Just because u dont hear it doesnt mean it exists. Also there is a ton of Islam bashing from PAD, search for his "religion of peace" posts.
No I'm not kidding!
I'm really starting to get ticked off with the Christian bashing going on here at CAG.
To attribute those absolutely hateful remarks to Christians is disgusting.
And the implication is "ALL" Christians. I highly resent those remarks.
If I falsely accused homosexuals, Jews, Blacks, atheist, pro-abortionist, Muslims, or any other group of people of such hateful things I'd be called a homophobe, anti-semetic, racist or worse.
But its OK for anti-Christian bigots to accuse all Christians of the most vile putrid actions and when we get offended it's "Hey what's your problem?"
I'll repeat it again - I've lived in 7 states and I have NEVER EVER heard a single Christian make any of those hateful remarks about any group of people.[/quote]
Yeah well when I lived in Texas with my family our neighbor found out we were Jewish and told my mom she was surprised we didnt have horns. Just because u dont hear it doesnt mean it exists. Also there is a ton of Islam bashing from PAD, search for his "religion of peace" posts.
ZarathosNY
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[quote name='Scrubking']
And your point is? They are still trying to cover up factual history simply because God is mentioned.
I'm sure if they were covering up the word "gay" from some book you guys would be screaming murder. Oh wait, you guys already did in another thread.[/quote]
They are not trying to cover up factual history. Try reading the link I posted above. The teacher had complaints from parents about him, which is why he had to submit his lesson plans. The title of the article says that the Dec of Independence was banned from the school, and I was pointing out that this was not true. In fact if you look at the link I posted above, it mentions that the Dec of Indep is actually posted in the school.
And your point is? They are still trying to cover up factual history simply because God is mentioned.
I'm sure if they were covering up the word "gay" from some book you guys would be screaming murder. Oh wait, you guys already did in another thread.
[/quote]They are not trying to cover up factual history. Try reading the link I posted above. The teacher had complaints from parents about him, which is why he had to submit his lesson plans. The title of the article says that the Dec of Independence was banned from the school, and I was pointing out that this was not true. In fact if you look at the link I posted above, it mentions that the Dec of Indep is actually posted in the school.
MrBadExample
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After reading more, it's clear this teacher was trying to push his christian agenda and got called out for it. Now he wants to claim he is being persecuted (even though there is a startling lack up evidence to back him up). The headlines about the Declaration are just sensationalist and wrong.
[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'][quote name='Ledhed']One of the unfortunate side effects of "Seperation of Church and State" I'm afraid. Still though, both parties responsible for this and the gay book banning should come to their senses and understand the society we now live in.
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.[/quote]
Are you thinking of the emancipation proclaimation?[/quote]
:shock: ... yes. Damn my eyes.
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.[/quote]
Are you thinking of the emancipation proclaimation?[/quote]
:shock: ... yes. Damn my eyes.
sblymnlcrymnl
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[quote name='Ledhed'][quote name='sblymnlcrymnl'][quote name='Ledhed']One of the unfortunate side effects of "Seperation of Church and State" I'm afraid. Still though, both parties responsible for this and the gay book banning should come to their senses and understand the society we now live in.
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.[/quote]
Are you thinking of the emancipation proclaimation?[/quote]
:shock: ... yes. Damn my eyes.[/quote]
I think it might be worse than when you bumped your post topic for 3000 and only had 2900. :lol:
In regards to the DoI, the document is overrated to begin with. Many people mistakenly think that it abolished slavery. The 13th Amendment did that. The only thing that the DoI did was free slaves in any state that was still defecting from the Union during the Civil War. If the state returned to the Union (ornever left the Union to begin with), the slaves would remain slaves.[/quote]
Are you thinking of the emancipation proclaimation?[/quote]
:shock: ... yes. Damn my eyes.
[/quote]I think it might be worse than when you bumped your post topic for 3000 and only had 2900. :lol:
SwiftyLeZar
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"I really take exception to these remarks. You are an outrageously anti-Christian Bigot. You are exactly everything you accuse Christians of being."
I take exception to being called a bigot.
I can and will back up each and every claim made in my 3-paragraph post.
"They talk of a hidden 'homosexual agenda' (ironic as it is for these Christians to speak of others having a hidden agenda) that is out to destroy 'family values' forever and ever."
EVIDENCE:
-- http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/
An entire section of a radically right-wing Christian "pro-family" site dedicated to articles dismantling the evil "homosexual agenda."
-- http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0027070.cfm
Ditto.
-- "Many observers say that AIDS is the hammer and gun of the homosexual movement, an effective vehicle to propel the homosexual agenda throughout every phase of our society." - Pat Robertson, 700 Club
-- "... waging war against the homosexual agenda [note: I couldn't find the full quote, I apologize]." - Gary Bauer's Family Research Council
"Pretty much every president in the history of this country has been a Christian."
EVIDENCE:
-- http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html
"However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians)..."
EVIDENCE:
Homosexuals:
-- See above. Also, see Republican Alabama state representative trying to ban all books with homosexual characters (I think there's a thread about it). Ban, Republican Alabama state representative, ban.
Also, see 2 proposals for constitutional amendments banning gay marriage.
Rock stars:
-- http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1999/jan11/9t124b.html
"Australian civic leaders and Christians have joined forces in a controversial attempt to ban performances by androgynous shock rocker Marilyn Manson."
-- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1465598.stm
"A group of [Catholic] campaigners is attempting to have American rock stars Eminem and Marilyn Manson removed from this year's bill at Gig on the Green in Glasgow."
"... sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics)."
EVIDENCE:
-- http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9801/29/bombing.update/
-- http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9701/16/atlanta.blast.update/
-- http://www.emergency.com/tulsabmb.htm
Of course, I didn't mean to imply that all Christians were as I described (I initially used the phrase "these Christians" - as in, those such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc etc. I switched to the ill-conceived shorthand "Christians" in my last sentence. I apologize.
It would be impossible to say that all Christians deal out ignorant, obsessive bigotry to rock stars and the pro-choice movement - as some Christians are rock stars and some Christians are pro-choice.
I take exception to being called a bigot.
I can and will back up each and every claim made in my 3-paragraph post.
"They talk of a hidden 'homosexual agenda' (ironic as it is for these Christians to speak of others having a hidden agenda) that is out to destroy 'family values' forever and ever."
EVIDENCE:
-- http://www.afa.net/homosexual_agenda/
An entire section of a radically right-wing Christian "pro-family" site dedicated to articles dismantling the evil "homosexual agenda."
-- http://www.family.org/cforum/feature/a0027070.cfm
Ditto.
-- "Many observers say that AIDS is the hammer and gun of the homosexual movement, an effective vehicle to propel the homosexual agenda throughout every phase of our society." - Pat Robertson, 700 Club
-- "... waging war against the homosexual agenda [note: I couldn't find the full quote, I apologize]." - Gary Bauer's Family Research Council
"Pretty much every president in the history of this country has been a Christian."
EVIDENCE:
-- http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html
"However, Christians are in the business of trying to destroy any group they don't like (see: homosexuals, rock musicians)..."
EVIDENCE:
Homosexuals:
-- See above. Also, see Republican Alabama state representative trying to ban all books with homosexual characters (I think there's a thread about it). Ban, Republican Alabama state representative, ban.
Also, see 2 proposals for constitutional amendments banning gay marriage.
Rock stars:
-- http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1999/jan11/9t124b.html
"Australian civic leaders and Christians have joined forces in a controversial attempt to ban performances by androgynous shock rocker Marilyn Manson."
-- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1465598.stm
"A group of [Catholic] campaigners is attempting to have American rock stars Eminem and Marilyn Manson removed from this year's bill at Gig on the Green in Glasgow."
"... sometimes taking the direct approach and bombing the shit out of them (see: abortion clinics)."
EVIDENCE:
-- http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9801/29/bombing.update/
-- http://cgi.cnn.com/US/9701/16/atlanta.blast.update/
-- http://www.emergency.com/tulsabmb.htm
Of course, I didn't mean to imply that all Christians were as I described (I initially used the phrase "these Christians" - as in, those such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc etc. I switched to the ill-conceived shorthand "Christians" in my last sentence. I apologize.
It would be impossible to say that all Christians deal out ignorant, obsessive bigotry to rock stars and the pro-choice movement - as some Christians are rock stars and some Christians are pro-choice.
Inmate #10943
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[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']Of course, I didn't mean to imply that all Christians were as I described (I initially used the phrase "these Christians" - as in, those such as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc etc. I switched to the ill-conceived shorthand "Christians" in my last sentence. I apologize.[/quote]
Accepted. As I took it that you meant ALL Christians.
Therefore, you're not a bigot.
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']It would be impossible to say that all Christians deal out ignorant, obsessive bigotry to rock stars and the pro-choice movement - as some Christians are rock stars and some Christians are pro-choice.[/quote]
And I would never defend ALL Christians. As there are definitely some bad apples in every group.
Accepted. As I took it that you meant ALL Christians.
Therefore, you're not a bigot.
[quote name='SwiftyLeZar']It would be impossible to say that all Christians deal out ignorant, obsessive bigotry to rock stars and the pro-choice movement - as some Christians are rock stars and some Christians are pro-choice.[/quote]
And I would never defend ALL Christians. As there are definitely some bad apples in every group.
Inmate #10943
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[quote name='Ikohn4ever']Yeah well when I lived in Texas with my family...................[/quote]
Hey -
HAPPY HANUKKAH !
Hey -
HAPPY HANUKKAH !
CTLesq
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[quote name='Ledhed']One of the unfortunate side effects of "Seperation of Church and State" I'm afraid. Still though, both parties responsible for this and the gay book banning should come to their senses and understand the society we now live in.
[/quote]
No, that has nothing to do with the SOC&S.
You people really don't understand this issue.
CTL
[/quote]
No, that has nothing to do with the SOC&S.
You people really don't understand this issue.
CTL
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That bitch is dumb. She needs to go and sit through a basic history class. The first thing you 
in learn about is the puritan work ethic. This country was founded by Cristians, so of course many of the documents from the past will have reference to God. She may not be religious, but not liking religious discussion, and barring a document as importand as the Declaration of Independence is short changing the children in that school, and not allowing them to learn about something as vital as the constitiution.
I guess she also won't let them read books in English class either, since the main character may be religious or their may be religious overtones in the book.
Something is wrong if this prinicipal is not fired. That is a flagrant abuse of power and is almost a form of censorship. People like her should not be people with power, because of their short sightedness
in learn about is the puritan work ethic. This country was founded by Cristians, so of course many of the documents from the past will have reference to God. She may not be religious, but not liking religious discussion, and barring a document as importand as the Declaration of Independence is short changing the children in that school, and not allowing them to learn about something as vital as the constitiution. I guess she also won't let them read books in English class either, since the main character may be religious or their may be religious overtones in the book.
Something is wrong if this prinicipal is not fired. That is a flagrant abuse of power and is almost a form of censorship. People like her should not be people with power, because of their short sightedness
[quote name='CaseyRyback']People like her should not be people with power, because of their short sightedness[/quote]
And unfortunately that is all too often the case.
And CTL, you're right. It isn't SoC&S, and had I taken just a moment to think about it I would have realized it, but I didn't. I took one look at the article and typed what you just quoted. I didn't even refer to the same document in question. I talked before thinking, and made an ass of myself in the process.
And unfortunately that is all too often the case.
And CTL, you're right. It isn't SoC&S, and had I taken just a moment to think about it I would have realized it, but I didn't. I took one look at the article and typed what you just quoted. I didn't even refer to the same document in question. I talked before thinking, and made an ass of myself in the process.
Trancendental
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[quote name='CaseyRyback']This country was founded by Cristians, so of course many of the documents from the past will have reference to God. [/quote]
This country was founded by persecuted Engish Christians, who wanted to make sure that other religions would not be persecuted in the same manner in this "New World" (Salem notwithstanding)
Alas, history repeats itself and now non-Christians are having Christian beliefs and Christian reconstructionist history forced upon their children.
This country was founded by persecuted Engish Christians, who wanted to make sure that other religions would not be persecuted in the same manner in this "New World" (Salem notwithstanding)
Alas, history repeats itself and now non-Christians are having Christian beliefs and Christian reconstructionist history forced upon their children.
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[quote name='camoor'][quote name='CaseyRyback']This country was founded by Cristians, so of course many of the documents from the past will have reference to God. [/quote]
This country was founded by persecuted Engish Christians, who wanted to make sure that other religions would not be persecuted in the same manner in this "New World" (Salem notwithstanding)
Alas, history repeats itself and now non-Christians are having Christian beliefs and Christian reconstructionist history forced upon their children.[/quote]
Not True. Why do you think there was such a high concentration of catholics in Maryland (Baltimore Specifically). Same thing for the Quakers in PA.
Just because you were persecuted, does not mean you are open minded to other people's beliefs
you could bring up that that was the way the land was divided for them, but it was done like that for a specific reason
This country was founded by persecuted Engish Christians, who wanted to make sure that other religions would not be persecuted in the same manner in this "New World" (Salem notwithstanding)
Alas, history repeats itself and now non-Christians are having Christian beliefs and Christian reconstructionist history forced upon their children.[/quote]
Not True. Why do you think there was such a high concentration of catholics in Maryland (Baltimore Specifically). Same thing for the Quakers in PA.
Just because you were persecuted, does not mean you are open minded to other people's beliefs
you could bring up that that was the way the land was divided for them, but it was done like that for a specific reason
Trancendental
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[quote name='CaseyRyback'][quote name='camoor'][quote name='CaseyRyback']This country was founded by Cristians, so of course many of the documents from the past will have reference to God. [/quote]
This country was founded by persecuted Engish Christians, who wanted to make sure that other religions would not be persecuted in the same manner in this "New World" (Salem notwithstanding)
Alas, history repeats itself and now non-Christians are having Christian beliefs and Christian reconstructionist history forced upon their children.[/quote]
Not True. Why do you think there was such a high concentration of catholics in Maryland (Baltimore Specifically). Same thing for the Quakers in PA.
Just because you were persecuted, does not mean you are open minded to other people's beliefs
you could bring up that that was the way the land was divided for them, but it was done like that for a specific reason[/quote]
The original Puritans they knew what it was like to be persecuted, and they landed on Plymouth Rock to escape that type of enviornment. Why do you think the Northeast (and Maryland) is so liberal while the South and Midwest (IE Anglicans/Baptists/etc) are "Bush" country? When you've been on the short end of the stick, you're more likely to tolerate the beliefs of your fellow man.
This country was founded by persecuted Engish Christians, who wanted to make sure that other religions would not be persecuted in the same manner in this "New World" (Salem notwithstanding)
Alas, history repeats itself and now non-Christians are having Christian beliefs and Christian reconstructionist history forced upon their children.[/quote]
Not True. Why do you think there was such a high concentration of catholics in Maryland (Baltimore Specifically). Same thing for the Quakers in PA.
Just because you were persecuted, does not mean you are open minded to other people's beliefs
you could bring up that that was the way the land was divided for them, but it was done like that for a specific reason[/quote]
The original Puritans they knew what it was like to be persecuted, and they landed on Plymouth Rock to escape that type of enviornment. Why do you think the Northeast (and Maryland) is so liberal while the South and Midwest (IE Anglicans/Baptists/etc) are "Bush" country? When you've been on the short end of the stick, you're more likely to tolerate the beliefs of your fellow man.
alonzomourning23
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The puritans wanted a place where they could create their own society, where they wouldn't be persecuted. That was their only concern. I don't know why the north is liberal, I would guess that it has to do with slavery never becoming imbedded in our culture, and being on the coast resulting in more international contact (coastal areas are usually more liberal). Sadly though, salem, while unique in many aspects, the sense of intolerance shown there was not unique. Roger williams (founded rhode island) was exiled from MA, due mainly to his ideas of tolerance and the idea of separation of church and state. They actually attempted to send him to england out of fear of a liberal colony near them (he fled south so they couldn't). Their colonies were puritan colonies, anyone who disagreed was either exiled or told to convert. Granted the salem witch trials were the puritans at their worst, but it wasn't the case of a normally tolerant society gone insane. They wanted tolerance for themselves, but as far as tolerating others they were far worse than anything they had encountered.
bread's done