LIBERALS - I don't understand why they think STEALING is okay?

Not that I'll ever check this topic again as I've had enough politics in my life (My father was the Libertarian chairman for WA state sometime in the 90s) I'll just say this: Privatize things.
 
[quote name='Quigoni'] I'll just say this: Privatize things.[/QUOTE]

Because that worked so well with Enron, Worldcom and ButtRapeCorp.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Because that worked so well with Enron, Worldcom and ButtRapeCorp.[/QUOTE]

Aren't you one of the same people who rightly say don't judge a group from the actions of a few? Hmm...oh yeah, more hypocrisy!
 
Nobody forced people to invest 100% in Enron stock. That was STUPID.

Roughly equivalent to selling on Ebay & then not shipping with DC or Tracking. You shoot yourself in the foot.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Okay, then stop the subsidies to farmers and federal money for rural electrification and broadband expansion.[/quote]
I agree 100%!!! Let them pay their own bills (or else, let the electric company pay for it since the EC benefits from the extra profit).


And trash collection?
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You get free trash collection???? I don't. I have to hire a private garbage company to come haul it away.


Why should any of us worry about water pollution in another area when it doesn't affect us?
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Nobody has a right to take away another man's right to clean water (i.e. polluting it). Same applies to air pollution.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Jefferson owned slaves, lots of them.[/QUOTE] No he didn't. His Creditors owned them. Same way the Bank owns your house or car. You use the property, but it actually belongs to someone else.


Also Jefferson put forth many, many, many proposals to *free* the slaves in his home state Virginia, but of course nobody listened to him. Jefferson recognized that blacks should be free just like whites, but was not able to convince anybody else.


And finally, it's a logical fallacy to think a person must be 100% perfect, else he is not worth listening to. None of us is 100% perfect & such a standard is not a fair way to judge our fellow human beings. Which is why I said I agree with 99% of Jefferson's writings...... not all of them, but still enough that I admire the great genius that man was.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']And finally, it's a logical fallacy to think a person must b 100% perfect, else he is not worth listening to. None of us is 100% perfect & such a standard is not a fair way to judge our fellow human beings. Which is why I said I agree with 99% of Jefferson's writings...... not all of them, but still enough that I admire the great genius that man was.[/QUOTE]
:imwithst:
 
[quote name='electrictroy']No he didn't. His Creditors owned them. Same way the Bank owns your house or car. You use the property, but it actually belongs to someone else.[/QUOTE]
Is that supposed to be a defense of slavery?

Back to the main topic. The government is not stealing from you. They ask for money and you give it to them.

I'll admit that our country has serious flaws. But get over it. Don't whine on a messageboard. Do actual research and find hard numbers to support your claims. Put together suggestions for change based on that research, not neglecting to take into account all of the ripple effects associated with them. Run for office, or volunteer to help a candidate that shares your views. Or find a country that runs more in line with your views, denounce your U.S. citizenship, and move to that country.


And don't put a question mark at the end of your topic when it's not a question.
 
Looks like the DC metro system is finally setting up a consistent, dedicated source of funds for our metro system.

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0106/296325.html

ET - the liberuhls win again! Ahahaha. I can't wait to start tieing damsels in distress to the publicly funded metro tracks :D

snidely.jpg
 
[quote name='electrictroy']Same way the Bank owns your house or car.[/QUOTE]
I own my car. My mom owns her house.

Can you give me some evidence to back up this claim about Jefferson?
 
With the several thousand riders on D.C.'s metro, most of whom are high-paid professionals, WHY DO THEY NEED TO DIVERT 1/2% OF SALES TAX TO THE METRO??? Jeez. We who drive cars pay ~50 cents on every gallon of gasoline to directly maintain & upgrade the roads. Why can't Metro riders ALSO pay an extra 50 cents per ride to maintain & upgrade the rails??? (rolls eyes) [quote name='sheepboy_1923']The government is not stealing from you. They ask for money and you give it to them. [/QUOTE] Riiiight. More like, "They ask for money, and then threaten to arrest you if you don't give it." The government uses the threat of force to extract the money from your wallet. It's compulsory not voluntary.

(shrug) I still think it's wrong to take money from one person & give it to another, just so person #2 can waste it on trivial nonsense like buying lotto tickets or cigarettes:

- If person #2 did that with a gun, it would be called stealing.

- If person #2 does it with government, then suddenly it's okay?!?!? Bull. Person #1 sweated & slaved to earn that money, and he/she should be allowed to keep it for him or herself..... not buy someone else's lotto tickets.
 
Can you name a country that doesn't tax its residence?

Can you suggest a means to tax people that coincides with what you desire that DOESN'T destroy society or halt efficiency to a crawl?
 
[quote name='electrictroy'] When I read Jefferson, I find myself agreeing with him 99% of the time. [/QUOTE]

Do you agree with these quotes?

"There is no act, however virtuous, for which ingenuity may not find some bad motive. "

It seems almost, like that is what you are doing here.

Here is what Jefferson thought about libraries, a stance you would disagree with:

"I have often thought that nothing would do more extensive good at small expense than the establishment of a small circulating library in every county, to consist of a few well-chosen books, to be lent to the people of the country under regulations as would secure their safe return in due time"

Or this quote regarding museums, regardless of whether people attend:

"I agree with you that it is the duty of every good citizen to use all the opportunities, which occur to him, for preserving documents relating to the history of our country. "

Perhaps this is part of the 99% you agree with as well:

"I advance it, therefore, as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstance, are inferior to the whites in the endowment both of body and mind. "
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']I own my car. My mom owns her house.

Can you give me some evidence to back up this claim about Jefferson?[/QUOTE]

He's more likely to tell you to look it up and that its all over the net (regardless of whether it is or not) than actually provide the evidence.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']With the several thousand riders on D.C.'s metro, most of whom are high-paid professionals, WHY DO THEY NEED TO DIVERT 1/2% OF SALES TAX TO THE METRO??? Jeez. We who drive cars pay ~50 cents on every gallon of gasoline to directly maintain & upgrade the roads. Why can't Metro riders ALSO pay an extra 50 cents per ride to maintain & upgrade the rails??? (rolls eyes) [/QUOTE]

There may be some high-paid professionals who ride the metro, but the majority of DC metro riders are working-class or government workers, neither of which I would call highly-paid.

Many industries are moving towards privitization, and I believe this is good, but it must be approached carefully. If you want to see what happens when you privatize too quickly and radically without proper oversight, google "Enron California rolling blackouts"

Markets are fascinating when viewed as a tool that can provide positive social benefits. The EU recently agreed to setup a pollution market in which companes can buy and sell permits to pollute carbon dioxide. As I see it, the trick will be to keep the cost of permits artificially high enough so that companies are persuaded not to over-pollute the atmosphere.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2560175.stm
 
[quote name='electrictroy']
- If person #2 does it with government, then suddenly it's okay?!?!? Bull. Person #1 sweated & slaved to earn that money, and he/she should be allowed to keep it for him or herself..... not buy someone else's lotto tickets.[/QUOTE]
You're just making a generalization now. Not everyone who uses government assistance is buying lottery tickets. I believe the U.S. is actually one of the least taxed countries, so I don't think it's that bad really. On a different but somewhat related subject, is it right that people who have kids are allowed a special deduction (or whatever it is) off of their taxes? Just because you know how to stick your penis in a vagina you're allowed some of your money back, that's never made sense to me. You should have thought of your financial situation before you had kids.
 
They get money back because its harder to raise kids than be single. They already have the kids, improving their financial situation helps the kids, and thats more important than punishing the adult. Personally I think anyone below the poverty line should not be taxed.
 
[quote name='docvinh']You're just making a generalization now. Not everyone who uses government assistance is buying lottery tickets. I believe the U.S. is actually one of the least taxed countries, so I don't think it's that bad really. On a different but somewhat related subject, is it right that people who have kids are allowed a special deduction (or whatever it is) off of their taxes? Just because you know how to stick your penis in a vagina you're allowed some of your money back, that's never made sense to me. You should have thought of your financial situation before you had kids.[/QUOTE]

So you should punish the kids by making sure the parents don't have enough money to spend on them?

Yeah, fucking kill yourself.
 
[quote name='camoor']Many industries are moving towards privitization, and I believe this is good, but it must be approached carefully. If you want to see what happens when you privatize too quickly and radically without proper oversight, google "Enron California rolling blackouts"[/quote]

The California market was NOT privatized. The central trading market was still controlled by the government, and was the primary reason energy was not available when needed. (Same reason food was scarce in former USSR. Government can not react quickly enough to minute-by-minute variances.)
 
California's attempt to deregulate energy markets became a disaster for consumers when companies like Enron manipulated the West Cost power market and even shut down plants so they could drive up prices.
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Yes and WHY was Enron/others able to manipulate prices??? BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT set-up a stupid market that did not respond to supply & demand laws (like trying to build an airplane that ignores aerodynamics... it won't work). The blame ALL flows back to the California lawmakers.


Back home in Maryland/Pennsylvania, deregulation & introducing a free electricity market has worked *extremely* well. That's because the governments of these two states are NOT trying to control the market.... they're just letting it run free.
 
[quote name='evanft']So you should punish the kids by making sure the parents don't have enough money to spend on them?

Yeah, fucking kill yourself.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying don't help kids, but I know plenty of people not on the poverty line that get money back. I have rarely seen people reinvest their money back into their kids, they usually end up spending the money on themselves. Trust me, my parents benefitted greatly from this deduction, but I have friends that I would say are like middle class, and could easily afford not to have that deduction. They generally spend it on new things like a tv or new furniture. Calm down man, you guys are way too high strung in this vs. forum.:)
 
[quote name='electrictroy']You get free trash collection???? I don't. I have to hire a private garbage company to come haul it away.[/QUOTE]

I would hardly call it "free" since a fee is paid to the county to do it, but it's not done by a private company. But then again, since it's done by the county, all of us pay the same amount, regardless of how much trash we have picked up.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']Can you name a country that doesn't tax its residence?[/QUOTE]

Brunei.

http://www.bruneipress.com.bn/brunei/brunei.html

Brunei Darussalam has no personal income tax. There are no export, sales, payroll and manufacturing taxes.
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[quote name='electrictroy']With the several thousand riders on D.C.'s metro, most of whom are high-paid professionals, WHY DO THEY NEED TO DIVERT 1/2% OF SALES TAX TO THE METRO??? Jeez. We who drive cars pay ~50 cents on every gallon of gasoline to directly maintain & upgrade the roads. Why can't Metro riders ALSO pay an extra 50 cents per ride to maintain & upgrade the rails???[/quote]

Consider Metro is one of the more expensive systems to ride in the country already. Consider Metro is poorly run, causing it to need more money (obviously this should be fixed, but don't blame the riders). Consider Metro keeps hundreds of thousands of people off the roads every day and provides transportation to those without cars, not to mention the decreased pollution associated with those numbers.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']I wouldn't call Brunei a great place to model one's society.[/QUOTE]

Well I guess the phrase "you get what you pay for" apparently must apply to governments as well.
 
[quote name='capitalist_mao']I wouldn't call Brunei a great place to model one's society.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't either. You just asked for a country that doesn't tax its residents. I think Monaco doesn't either.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I wouldn't either. You just asked for a country that doesn't tax its residents. I think Monaco doesn't either.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and I was hoping the implications that the few countries that don't tax people aren't particularly great.
 
Prior to 1910, the United States rarely taxed its own citizens. It relied on Tariffs on imported good to raise money. My grandfather remembers when he never paid income tax (since initially only the rich paid).
 
[quote name='electrictroy']Prior to 1910, the United States rarely taxed its own citizens. It relied on Tariffs on imported good to raise money. My grandfather remembers when he never paid income tax (since initially only the rich paid).[/QUOTE]
Then they started an income tax and the US prospered quite readily.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']Prior to 1910, the United States rarely taxed its own citizens. It relied on Tariffs on imported good to raise money. My grandfather remembers when he never paid income tax (since initially only the rich paid).[/QUOTE]

Yes, and income tax was initially instituted in 1862 only to pay for the civil war.

Another interesting fact - the United States has continually been fighting one war or another ever since WWII.
 
Not not really. There were some peaceful moments between WW2 and Korea. Also Korea and Vietnam. And also peacetime between Vietnam & Reagan's Grenada invasion.

So that "fact" is actually false.
 
"the United States has continually been fighting"

A Cold War, by definition, means NO fighting. And so I was right in my previous post that some moments of peace, when the U.S. was not fighting, existed.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']"the United States has continually been fighting"

A Cold War, by definition, means NO fighting. And so I was right in my previous post that some moments of peace, when the U.S. was not fighting, existed.[/QUOTE]

Just because we may not have been physically fighting, our government was spending money out the wazoo in the event that we were going to go to war. (Star Wars?) We also had the added expenses of increased intelligence/counter-intelligence and aid to countries that we feared would fall to communism. Then you have spend money on the propoganda to keep support for the spending... really, I would think a cold war would be more expensive than a normal one...
 
You are correct. Our government has been wasting a lot of money on Military Preparedness since 1942.

Nevertheless, that's NOT the point I was refuting. The point I was refuting was: "Another interesting fact - the United States has continually been fighting one war or another ever since WWII," which is flat wrong.
 
[quote name='electrictroy']You are correct. Our government has been wasting a lot of money on Military Preparedness since 1942.

Nevertheless, that's NOT the point I was refuting. The point I was refuting was: "Another interesting fact - the United States has continually been fighting one war or another ever since WWII," which is flat wrong.[/QUOTE]
So, you're saying we weren't fighting the cold war?
 
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