Man Law - Out Of Bounds???

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chosen1s

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So I'm having a debate with a buddy of mine (who will go unnamed) about the terms of man-law. And who is a better judge of morality and right vs. wrong that CAG right? Ha ha. Anyway, for your judging enjoyment - read the following scenario. There are lots of stupid moves on A&A's parts, but because the topic is BORIS, Judge ONLY whether BORIS broke was wrong.

Amy and Adam date for 5 years. They are involved in their Church and do Bible Studies with kids in their free time. In April they have a painful breakup but because the breakup is about marriage (just can't make it work) rather than hating each other they stay close. A week later BORIS enters and gets involved in the study, co-leading with Adam. Boris is one of those guys with girls waiting in line to date him, flirts with anything that moves (over 18 of course), and despite his bond with Adam over their shared experiences (he has also recently ended a long-term relationship) begins paying a lot of extra attention to Amy.

It is significant to point out that starting early May, a number of people comment on the obvious amount of time these two are spending together. Meanwhile, Boris continues to pursue friendship with Adam, inviting him to movies, out with "the guys", hanging out, etc. but never discussing Amy. He also has long heart-to-hearts with Adam - giving advice on how Adam should distance himself from Amy and not let himself fall into only remembering good times, etc.

In early June, approximately 2 months after breaking up, Adam finds out that Boris has also been emailing back-and-forth with Amy, giving her "advice" and consolation. A week later, Amy tells Adam that Boris was suddenly surprised to discover that they have feelings for each other and are going to start dating. He feels really bad about the way things "look" but just had to be honest. Adam feels betrayed, and believes Boris should have known better than to put himself in such a cozy situation with Amy, regardless of whether or not he really had "feelings" at the time. Either that, or Boris should not have pursued friendship with Adam.

So, lots of mistakes, lots of should-have. My buddy and I have debated a lot of the other should-have's, etc but came to a stalemate on the application of man-law (appropriate interaction between guys and/or guy-friends) to Boris. What's your vote?
 
Was Boris friends with you before the study, or was he just a random guy that got involved in the study? Is there any history before the study with you two?


If not, then I don't think Boris did anything wrong in pursuing her.

I do think he was wrong in getting so close to you and befriending you. I also think it was really low trying to give you, "advice."
 
If they aren't dating, it's fair game for all involved parties.

Separable is the element of secrecy involved on Boris' part - but since Adam isn't dating Amy anymore, it's not his fuckin' business.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']If they aren't dating, it's fair game for all involved parties.

Separable is the element of secrecy involved on Boris' part - but since Adam isn't dating Amy anymore, it's not his fuckin' business.[/QUOTE]

You can't separate the secrecy from "man-law". I agree, without the "hey Adam, let's be friends and let me give you advice on Amy" then it's none of Adam's business. It's just the next guy Amy dates. The question is, did BORIS do the wrong thing?
 
Therein lies the debate, and your stance. It seems you think the secrecy is where Boris went wrong. IMO, it's evidence of a weak personality (he can't be out front about what he's doing) - but since it's only business b/w Amy and Boris, it's not wrong.
 
If Boris had any respect for Adam, he wouldn't have gotten involved with Amy in the first place. Boris is either A) not a "true" friend of Adam or B) not really the ladies man you say he is.

If you're Boris and you are friends with Adam quit the relationship with Amy.
If you're Adam stop bring friends with Boris if Amy actually means something to you as it will bug you to death.
 
idk, that does sound pretty scummy of him.

basically he did betray him,
cause i wasnt just like she broke up with him and got over him and THEN dated Boris.

Boris in a way sabotaged Adams chances of getting back with her, only for his own benefit.
 
I think Boris crossed the line. He betrayed his friend, and gave advice for both Amy and Adam to stay away from eachother. He set it up so they wouldn't have ANY feelings at all for eachother so he could just butt in and take Amy. If Boris were a good man, he would have talked to Adam about Amy truthfully, telling him he was interested in Amy. It is like when a man and woman are dancing, and another man want's to dance with her, he simply taps the man dancing on the shoulder, Boris basically, pushed them away from eachother so he can have the woman.
 
Nuts to Boris and any other douche that tries to play both sides of the fence like that. I've had friendships sour for similiar reasons, although forutnately my girlfriend at the time was not interested.
 
You asked to think only about Boris, so let's at least look at that for a second before I derail this into other territory. Did he do something wrong? Dunno. There's a hypocritical element to his nature for sure, since pushing two people away in order to secure one is questionable when you try to be friends with both, but keep both in the dark as well as convince themselves to keep each other in the dark. So that's definitely an outright personality trait flaw, since this is the kind of guy that - when you're around him - might act like a good friend, and then call you an asshole when you leave. So in that respect, it's a life-long failure thing instead of this specific situation. I get the feeling the guy is going to do this a lot, which may or may not mean he's a dick in other respects.

I tend to agree with myke, and he seems dead on here in the sense that fair game = fair game. Ultimately what someone does is up to themselves solely, disregarding anything they might be hearing from outside parties, so there was effectively nothing stopping Adam from pursuing Amy. Frankly, if I were him, I probably wouldn't have given two shits about what some noob had to say about my stuff, no matter how nice and sincere he came off as.

For fun - let's consider another angle of this story.

Oddly enough, this is how my first true relationship began. I was interested in girl A for a while. We tried to date, but then her best friends more or less convinced her me was no good, and more or less orchestrated a break up. She was then there to snatch me the second that was complete.

So let's look at it from my perspective, since I'm the "Amy" in this case.

First off, does Amy even know that Boris and Adam are friends? In my case, I didn't know girl A was good friends with girl B. If Amy knows, then you'd think she'd have said something, but the evidence says she doesn't. Likewise, Adam doesn't (given this 2 months e-mail discovery thing). The point is that if either of them know there's these divisive Amy and Boris/Boris and Adam thing going on, with Boris being the overlap, you'd think one of them would say something to the other. If they don't, then they either completely don't know OR Boris has convinced them to shut up entirely, which makes both of them sound kind of weak (on top of Boris's weakness in terms of being up-front and genuine).

In my case, I found out how much...the plot extended when it came to all this orchestration, and by then, I wasn't speaking with girl A at all. It went deep. The new gf I was with had actually been secretly liking me for years, and she and girl A even kept some kind of tiny journal about it. This was all pretty shocking when I found out. I made fun of it (of course), and girl A was no longer around so I didn't feel bad or have any regrets, but it was still an odd situation.

I guess the point is that it comes down to personal decisions on everyone's part to an extent, but that partially depends on who knows what at what time.

Only other thing I'd look at is how Amy feels about Boris's actions. Again, with me, there wasn't much to consider. If Amy finds all of that bad - either out of respect for Adam and how things went down, or purely because she might feel a little betrayed - then she might think he did something wrong.

I've kind of rambled on, and I'm tired and have insomnia, so I don't know if I've made sense.
 
boris played both ends to get what he wanted. he should have maned up and told adam from the beginning he wanted to ask amy out. instead he told adam to back away from amy and was probably telling amy that adams backing away from her was a sign that there wasnt any chance of them saving their relationship which is a shady thing to do especially when youre pretending to be adams friend. adam should kick boris's ass the guy obviously used him to get to amy and played them both to fully end their relationship. as soon as adam saw what was happening he should have talked to amy and let her know and asked what boris had been telling her.
 
It is not really Adam's business anymore even though Boris was a little shady in getting Amy. It would probably be for the best if Adam removed himself from the situation.
 
It would be one thing if Boris and Adam had been close friends before Adam and Amy broke up. Then, their male bond (man-law, as you put it) would/should prevent Boris from pursuing Amy. But with them broken up before Boris walks into the picture, Amy is free game and man-law does not apply. There was no prior precedent to keep Boris from sniffing around wherever he pleases.
 
Another thing to point out is that Adam and Amy obviously don't talk a whole lot during this time. If you two were close, or even acted close, then both of you would have known that Boris was close to the other. Simple communication could have prevented this very early on.

However, if Adam and Amy didn't have that kind of communication going on, then the relationship probably was already near, if not past, the point of no return.

We always have to keep the option open that Boris MIGHT have actually been friends with both parties and be giving the best advice for both parties, even if it may seem like he was playing both ends for his own means.
 
to me it seems Boris was playing with both sides to get closer to Amy. Making sure they continually stay separate, while finding out ways to get closer to Amy. Seems like a real DBag
 
LoL - Christian guilt is obviously at the root of this question.

Noone did anything wrong, but frankly Amy sounds like she's an idiot (hot idiot I'm suspecting)
 
I want to take a moment to point out that this kind of garbage takes place in churches and church settings all the time. Rather than Boris' fault being in question, let's ask:

1. Why does this guy Boris just show up and all of the sudden he is co-leading a youth group? There needs to be some time for this man to prove himself to be upstanding and full of integrity (obviously not the case) before he is given the ability to pour into a bunch of impressionable young kids' lives. Judging from his flirtatious tendencies and desire to hook up with another co-leader in private, I'd say he needs to be put in his place by the pastor of this church.

Furthermore, based on the information the OP is giving, I'd say it is high time that new leadership as a whole be put in place over the youth. This whole situation needs to be refocused to the real reason youth groups and churches exist in the first place. These types of misdirection are the reason that so many people have a bad taste in their mouth about God and church: poor leadership and a misuse of spiritual authority.
 
The church setting is really irrelevant. It could take place in a grocery store, a high school gym class, or in a van down by the river. The fact is, Adam is no longer dating Amy and has no right to be upset when she chooses to date someone else.
 
I lost count of how many times my old 'friends' who jump on my exes (or atleast try.) Granted, I never wanted to get back with them, and it was never a long term relationship other then someone I would bang for months on end... still pretty low and dirty. But... who am I to judge?

The only messed up part I see is that Boris would try to coex A&A away from each other while he moved in for the ban.. err kill.
 
Well, I think this is reasonably cut and dry. If I'm reading this right, Boris really didn't know either of them while they were dating. So, he seemed to become friends with Adam and Amy after the fact. Amy is definitely fair game here.

So, Boris did nothing wrong. That being said, I doubt he can be friends with Adam at the same time. After a 5 year relationship, you just can't be friends with the guy that's bending your ex over and giving it to her now. I'm not saying years down the road you couldn't, but you can't right away.

But, something like this is bound to brew when you stay "friends" after a 5 year relationship. Sorry, either you are ready for each other or you aren't, but staying friends when you both need to move on lead to problems like this (since you hang out, you will hang out at the same parties, with the same friends, and something like this is bound to happen).

So, my man law

Boris did nothing wrong
Even though point one is true, Adam has every right to be pissed/kick his ass, since he was obviously doing something sneaky not being out in the open.

Next case
 
Bros before ho's.

OTOH who was it that said "All is fair in love and war."

You cant pick who you have feelings for, we only have control (and limited control at that) over how we act upon those feelings.

Ehh its a tough situation. I'm sure just about every CAG in here had friends fight amongst each other over a girl, it sucks but it is nothing new. At the end of the day, the girl, and possibly your future wife/mother of your child is the most important IMO. Throw a chick into the mix with lifelong friends and you have yourself a grey, hazy, fucked up situation.
 
It looks to me like Boris is manipulating Adam in order to ensure he doesn't threaten his burgeoning relationship with Amy. Rather...conniving, at best.

Still, there's no way to prove it.
 
Were Adam and Boris long time friends or did they meet after the break up? This means everything as to how to judge this situation. If Boris and Adam were long term friends, then Boris needs to be shot in the face with a sawed off 12 gauge. That's just something you don't do to your friends. However, if they just had met, Amy is fair game, regardless of how shady Boris is. And mind you, Boris sounds pretty shady. Best thing to do if you are Adam is to move on, stay busy in your life, women are a dime a dozen.
 
[quote name='the ender']I want to take a moment to point out that this kind of garbage takes place in churches and church settings all the time. Rather than Boris' fault being in question, let's ask:

1. Why does this guy Boris just show up and all of the sudden he is co-leading a youth group? There needs to be some time for this man to prove himself to be upstanding and full of integrity (obviously not the case) before he is given the ability to pour into a bunch of impressionable young kids' lives. Judging from his flirtatious tendencies and desire to hook up with another co-leader in private, I'd say he needs to be put in his place by the pastor of this church.

Furthermore, based on the information the OP is giving, I'd say it is high time that new leadership as a whole be put in place over the youth. This whole situation needs to be refocused to the real reason youth groups and churches exist in the first place. These types of misdirection are the reason that so many people have a bad taste in their mouth about God and church: poor leadership and a misuse of spiritual authority.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more. However, just because Judas made his way into the inner sanctum doesn't mean they should have thrown out the other 11 disciples. This question of course is about whether or not Boris was right or wrong, not about proper Church leadership choices.

Nevertheless, your focus on the importance of making sure leadership is doing the job they are supposed to be doing is 100% correct. GREAT point about guy just showing up and leading...Kudos!
 
[quote name='the ender']I want to take a moment to point out that this kind of garbage takes place in churches and church settings all the time. [/quote]Omfg, I thought I was the only one that realized this. I had an ex that was caught banging THREE married men that she babysat for that she knew from church. Also know of 3 other instances of sexxors with married people that knew each other FROM CHURCH. Just cause they go to church, doesnt mean their morals are straight.
 
Is Boris fella an Iranian man? If yes.. nuke him! j/k

Get a new Amy.. it will be much better in the long run.. this type of secretive relationship usually is not good in the long run.. good luck anyway :)
 
I'm claiming fair use (haha) since he knew neither until they were apart. He was kinda sneaky about playing both sides because he knew what he was doing. If I were Adam I would be mad because he played both sides. I still claim "fairity".
 
[quote name='pittpizza']Bros before ho's.[/quote]

Whenever you're out and some dude says this, you know they're full of shit.

With my friends this phrase is always shortly followed by "fuck that!"
 
[quote name='Lupuri']Omfg, I thought I was the only one that realized this. I had an ex that was caught banging THREE married men that she babysat for that she knew from church. Also know of 3 other instances of sexxors with married people that knew each other FROM CHURCH. Just cause they go to church, doesnt mean their morals are straight.[/QUOTE]


hmmm...maybe I should convert.



Boris played them against each other to get with Amy. Adam should probably feel pretty betrayed. It's hard saying not knowing Boris, but it sounds like he knew what he was doing the whole time and Amy will probably end up being hurt by him. Either way, whether it was intentional or not, it was a boneheaded way to go about the situation for Boris. If I were Adam, I probably wouldn't go out of my way to be friends with him. If Boris continued to be friendly, I'd be friends with him, but would never trust him.
 
Based on the information that was provided, there's no way to really know Boris' original true intentions. So there's no way you can possibly come to a black and white conclusion based on that. It's quite possible that the timing could be purely coincidental. Up until the point where Adam and Boris are having "heart to heart" discussions, Boris has performed no wrong.

However, once Adam and Boris have "heart to heart" discussions is where the rubber meets the road. If Boris held an interest in Amy he was no longer an impartial member to be giving advice to neither Adam nor Amy. Boris was clearly being dishonest to Adam, considering that advice was being given to both parties. In this, yes Boris was wrong and a bad friend to Adam.

While it would've been completely within Boris' right to approach Amy with interest, he had no place giving advice to both persons and being dishonest with Adam while doing so.
 
Oh, the drama-llamas are in the house...

There's a lot we don't know. First off, for a christian youth group leader, isn't it against your way for us to be judging Boris' actions? (That was tongue-in-cheek, of course.)

Secondly, How did this Boris guy just appear out of nowhere and is suddenly helping to run things?

Third, let's look at your description of Boris: "Boris is one of those guys with girls waiting in line to date him, flirts with anything that moves (over 18 of course) and despite his bond with Adam over their shared experiences (he has also recently ended a long-term relationship) begins paying a lot of extra attention to Amy." - well, does his actions surprise you? If he just appeared out of nowhere, what made anyone think Amy was off-limits? (Also, it seemed like there was a sub-conscious method of describing Boris as unflattering or a jerk.) By the OP's own description, he came in a week after the break-up, so he doesn't seem to have long history with either side.

Fourth, and I quote: "Meanwhile, Boris continues to pursue friendship with Adam, inviting him to movies, out with "the guys", hanging out, etc. but never discussing Amy. He also has long heart-to-hearts with Adam - giving advice on how Adam should distance himself from Amy and not let himself fall into only remembering good times, etc." Which is it? He never discusses Amy with Adam or has long heart-to-heart conversations with Adam about her? This makes me wonder about everything else in the story. The facts conflict, so how do we know how much we can trust the story about Boris and any implied motives?

Fifth, "[Boris] begins paying a lot of extra attention to Amy." What does that mean? Flirting? Does everyone else notice it? Why didn't Adam?

Let me see if I have this straight:

Adam and Amy date for five years but break up painfully over marriage issues/ (What does that mean? One of them can't commit? If it is Adam, then he has no fucking right to be upset about Boris.) They break up in May. A week later, Boris enters the scene. Now, since they are all in the same circle (Church group and bible study), I'm guessing they must have some sort of interaction or at least being in the same place at the same time. In this time, Adam and Boris have become friends. (I'm not going to make any comments about the conversing between Adam and Boris about Amy since the story contradicts itself.) In June, Adam finds out that Boris has been emailing advice back and forth with Amy and then develops feelings.

This story has been set up in a subtle way to frame Boris in a bad light.

It's hard to say anything based on what has been presented, but let me try to look at this a different way. Boris comes into the scene. He is new in the circle (and if my memory serves of Church settings, especially youth orgs, there are few secrets because everyone intermingles), and it is never said he has ever met Adam or Amy before. Plus, he comes in after the break-up - he has met them as they were both single. He does the male bonding stuff with Adam, but talks to Amy on the side.

Let's pause at the point. Have you ever had a close female friend? Ever had one that just came out of a long relationship that ended badly? If not, let me say this: I'd lay money down that Boris didn't bring up the topic of Adam. Plus, we only know he gave advice and consoled Amy, but we don't know what was said or who brought it up. She may have approached him and he was being nice to a friend.

This is the kind of thing you see if most groups of friends like this. Adam had his chance and the relationship is over. Boris entered when they were single. There are too many holes or inconsistancies in the story to say Boris did anything wrong at all.

Sorry for being long winded (Like Strell, I can't sleep either), but, based on the story told, I don't see where Boris did anything wrong - hence: no Man Law broken.
 
No. Simply put Boris did what he needed to do, that was it. He wanted a piece of Amy and he got hit. All the people with problems in the way he operates can all get together in church and pray he will get hit by a truck. Although I will say that I try to stay away from Boris like people based solely on the fact that I don't like to see other men get my seconds, I still don't get this dating morality thing civilization has set up. If you have sexy time with the wrong people you lose a friend. I say goodbye to the friend have my fun and never wonder about the friend again.
 
[quote name='cindersphere']No. Simply put Boris did what he needed to do, that was it. He wanted a piece of Amy and he got hit. All the people with problems in the way he operates can all get together in church and pray he will get hit by a truck. Although I will say that I try to stay away from Boris like people based solely on the fact that I don't like to see other men get my seconds, I still don't get this dating morality thing civilization has set up. If you have sexy time with the wrong people you lose a friend. I say goodbye to the friend have my fun and never wonder about the friend again.[/quote]

Wow, hopefully you are showing some internet sarcasm and I am not picking up on it. If what you are saying is true, you must have very little friends. :roll:
 
His method could be taken as underhanded or simply the result of trying to be helpful to both Adam and Amy, it's quite difficult to console 2 people at once.

Eitherway he hasn't broken any code since she's available.

Boris might be a totally slimeball and bastard but that's really something for Amy to find out in the future and hopefully Adam will be there to consule her assuming he hasn't wrecked their friendship by that point.
 
If Boris and Adam were good friends, Boris is a total slimy douchebag.

Being a total slimy douchebag to a close friend = broken man code.

Now if Boris and Adam were more like acquaintances, then Amy was fair game.
 
I only skimmed this, because it started to talk about Bible Study group or something and I became ill.

Anyway, it sounds like you got set up by Boris. But then again, you shouldn't blindly be following another guy's advice.
 
[quote name='PlumeNoir']Oh, the drama-llamas are in the house...

There's a lot we don't know. First off, for a christian youth group leader, isn't it against your way for us to be judging Boris' actions? (That was tongue-in-cheek, of course.)

Secondly, How did this Boris guy just appear out of nowhere and is suddenly helping to run things?

[/Quote]

I left a lot of details out because I didn't want to sway one way or the other, just wanted to try to keep it to "did Boris break Guy Code"? Not "is Boris good/bad". There is very little debate about Boris as a person between my buddy and I.

Boris came in during a time of great need. How he was "checked out" before jumping in is unknown and not really applicable to guy code.

[quote name='PlumeNoir']

Third, let's look at your description of Boris: "Boris is one of those guys with girls waiting in line to date him, flirts with anything that moves (over 18 of course) and despite his bond with Adam over their shared experiences (he has also recently ended a long-term relationship) begins paying a lot of extra attention to Amy." - well, does his actions surprise you? If he just appeared out of nowhere, what made anyone think Amy was off-limits? (Also, it seemed like there was a sub-conscious method of describing Boris as unflattering or a jerk.) By the OP's own description, he came in a week after the break-up, so he doesn't seem to have long history with either side.

[/Quote]
Adam was the first person Boris met. They talked extensively about Amy, as well as about Boris' Ex and knowing this, Boris pursued friendship with Adam while pursuing Amy. This is applicable to whether or not Boris broke man-code, whether you think he did or didn't.

[quote name='PlumeNoir']

Fourth, and I quote: "Meanwhile, Boris continues to pursue friendship with Adam, inviting him to movies, out with "the guys", hanging out, etc. but never discussing Amy. He also has long heart-to-hearts with Adam - giving advice on how Adam should distance himself from Amy and not let himself fall into only remembering good times, etc." Which is it? He never discusses Amy with Adam or has long heart-to-heart conversations with Adam about her? This makes me wonder about everything else in the story. The facts conflict, so how do we know how much we can trust the story about Boris and any implied motives?

[/Quote]

Maybe it would have read better to say "hiding or choosing not to discuss his frequent conversations etc with Amy" rather than "never discussing Amy"

[quote name='PlumeNoir']

Fifth, "[Boris] begins paying a lot of extra attention to Amy." What does that mean? Flirting? Does everyone else notice it? Why didn't Adam?

[/Quote]

Yes, all of the girls who thought Boris liked THEM because he was so flirtateous began to get angry with Amy because it was obvious how much time he was committing to flirting with her

[quote name='PlumeNoir']

Let's pause at the point. Have you ever had a close female friend? Ever had one that just came out of a long relationship that ended badly? If not, let me say this: I'd lay money down that Boris didn't bring up the topic of Adam. Plus, we only know he gave advice and consoled Amy, but we don't know what was said or who brought it up. She may have approached him and he was being nice to a friend.

This is the kind of thing you see if most groups of friends like this. Adam had his chance and the relationship is over. Boris entered when they were single. There are too many holes or inconsistancies in the story to say Boris did anything wrong at all.

Sorry for being long winded (Like Strell, I can't sleep either), but, based on the story told, I don't see where Boris did anything wrong - hence: no Man Law broken.[/QUOTE]

That's fine. Some of the above isn't clear what you're trying to say. However, most of the "details" that you are concerned about were left out specifically to keep the story from slanting against Boris. The question was whether or not man-law was broken, and I tried to keep the facts to that. If this story led you to "no", then thank you for your vote :)
 
[quote name='rcpettit']Isn't it a man-card violation to create online polls about relationships?[/QUOTE]

Ha!

Yeah, you might be right :)
 
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