Meningitis Hearing - Republicans determined to be useless chumps of industry

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U.S. Republican lawmakers accused federal health regulators on Wednesday of failing to prevent a deadly fungal meningitis outbreak by not acting much earlier to shut down the compounding pharmacy at the center of the crisis.

As Congress began debate on whether new laws are needed to help the U.S. Food and Drug Administration police the little-known drug compounding industry, Republicans in a committee hearing warned against the knee-jerk adoption of new regulation.

Instead, Republican members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee asserted that FDA already had the authority needed to move against errant pharmacy operations, long before the rare meningitis cases began appearing in September.

Republican Tim Murphy of Pennsylvania angrily accused her of not accepting her responsibilities as a leader, while Lee Terry of Nebraska expressed exasperation when Hamburg failed to cite federal statutes that might need to modification.

"I know that you're frustrated with my answers and I'm sorry. I can't just give 'yes or no' answers," said Hamburg. "We have ambiguous, fragmented, unclear and contested authorities," she added.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/sns-rt-us-usa-health-meningitisbre8ae025-20121114,0,602367.story

Hey Republicans - it's not "with no power comes great responsibility"

Herp-derp thanks Republicans for offering exactly zero leadership. It's obvious the current setup didn't work, but instead of fix the legislation and, you know, give the FDA the power to regulate companies it's easier to just browbeat a bureaucrat scapegoat. Republicans know that bureaucrat can't fire back and call the congressmen a lying asshole. It takes a big man to verbally beat down a woman that can't fire back.

How many elections do these corporatist chumps need to lose? Republicans seriously need to GTFO.

Compare to the Democrat response:

"I have a feeling, Dr. Hamburg, that you're being picked on by Republicans because you're with the Obama administration," said Henry Waxman, the full House committee's ranking Democrat.

"You're in a no-win situation," he said.

Hamburg called on Congress to enact new legislation to give FDA clear authority to regulate large-scale compounding pharmacies and impose stricter standards with well-defined powers to inspect company records and products.

"This isn't, sadly, an isolated incident. This is the worst and most tragic. It should be the last wake-up call for us," Hamburg said of the meningitis outbreak.

"We really need a strong, clear and appropriate legislation. We cannot have a crazy quilt where different parts of the country are subject to different legal frameworks."

Come on everybody - who sounds reasonable here, and who sounds like a bunch of corrupt bullies.
 
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Remember back when this was satire?
 
Normally I try to avoid the ol' VS forum anymore, but I must say as someone working in the pharmacy industry the FDA did drop the ball here, at least in part. In fact the only other agency that comes off looking more idiotic in this situation is perhaps the Massachusetts Board of Pharmacy.

The FDA along with many others deserve to be grilled over this. Hamburg can play the role of the powerless, but the major failure was their failure to acknowledge NECC as a drug manufacturer despite the fact that mass produced medications for the majority of the lower 48. As a compounding pharmacy you must first have a written order or valid prescription for a patient patient before sending the medication to it's end destination. The FDA was warned by various people, regulators, and agencies around the US that they were distributing mass quantities without those prescriptions or orders. Yet the FDA never took notice to them as a manufacturer? Hell that alone violates various FDA regulations on sending medication out of state.

Also read the hearing on the website and it's plain to see she was being pretty evasive on some questions. When asked directly if she thought the FDA had authority to shut down the NECC's operations, Yes or No. Her response was that it was a "very, very complex question". Dodge... Some of the answers to questions regarding regulation she was also very hazy on. Take this quote:
"We have to figure out how to give you the jurisdiction to do what you need to do, OK?" said Rep. Diana DeGette (D-Colo). "And these inconclusive answers are not helping us."
Yeah that was a D next to that name. And her opening speech was just odd in my opinion, she somehow split pharmacy compounding into 2 categories (which granted I don't have a long career yet but I've never heard the names traditional & non-traditional before now) yet did not clearly define them.

There's also the larger point that the FDA has had growing concerns about NECC and operations like it for nearly a decade, why not bring up the extreme and apparent need for this addition regulation before now?

My overall point is that yes some regulation is needed and the same old partisan crap never gets anything done correctly. Every pharmacy compounds medications and many pharmacies even do sterile compounding however few do it on such a large scale. The company I work for we do maybe 5-10 sterile compounds per day and that's out of usually 900-1000+ physician orders per day and it's an average size operation to be honest and there are probably hundreds across the US like this. So I do not see the FDA regulating even pharmacy doing sterile compounding at least not in a practical way.

Still the rule IMO should be simple, if you produce and ship X number of medications per year then you are without a doubt a manufacturer and welcome to FDA regulation land. If you ship drugs across state lines without the proper orders you are a manufacturer and welcome again to FDA regulation land, etc., etc. There's really no need to read on and on for 20mins about categories that don't exist (FDA, Hamburg) or use a hearing to bicker over which political party gets to point fingers at each other (Congress). Just fix the issue so dozens of people don't die slow, agonizing deaths again.
 
[quote name='Duo_Maxwell']Still the rule IMO should be simple, if you produce and ship X number of medications per year then you are without a doubt a manufacturer and welcome to FDA regulation land. If you ship drugs across state lines without the proper orders you are a manufacturer and welcome again to FDA regulation land, etc., etc. There's really no need to read on and on for 20mins about categories that don't exist (FDA, Hamburg) or use a hearing to bicker over which political party gets to point fingers at each other (Congress). Just fix the issue so dozens of people don't die slow, agonizing deaths again.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. If the lawmaker can't point to a simple rule, and if the lawmaker has no counter to "it's complicated", then the lawmaker isn't doing his or her job. Congress needs to step up and take responsibility for allowing this loophole to exist, once they tighten up the law then they can hold the feet of the executive branch to the fire.

All I heard from Republicans was a bunch of phony-baloney about how the FDA admin doesn't have an emotional attachment to the victims of unscrupulous corporations. I don't really give a fuck if the head of the FDA cares about me as long as she protects me from the law-breaking cost-cutting quacks and hacks in the pharma biz. At least the D rep had the goal of trying to fix the legislation while she berated the bureaucrat.

All this shit - the peanut scandal, the spinach, the meningitis-laced compounds, it's due to ineffective over-complicated toothless regulation and an understaffed regulatory industry. Until the people who keep electing obstructing Republicans get that through their thick skulls, nothing is going to change.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Living in MA and hearing about all this shit going down daily, it's just fucking despicable. The FDA is a fucking joke to have this all go down.[/QUOTE]

Especially as someone living there you should be more upset with the MA Board of Pharmacy. Now granted as far as a I know damn near every state's Board of Pharmacy is understaffed, but allowing not just this one but also the other Ameridose facility operate in gross violation of even the most basic pharmacy regulations without even a temporary shutdown is damn near negligent homicide IMO. Plus they were warned several times by credible outside sources, not just by the FDA but even other state's Boards apparently and yet no surprise inspection, nothing?

Hell my state's Board has supposedly been understaffed for a few years now, yet we get an inspection at least every 2 years to renew the license plus others on top of that depending on certification requirements and we are not even mass producing any drugs in a required sterile environment like this company was.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Living in MA and hearing about all this shit going down daily, it's just fucking despicable. The FDA is a fucking joke to have this all go down.[/QUOTE]

It is scary how much stuff the FDA is not regulating.

That's why when I hear talk about more deregulation I smh. Let's not mince words, at this point American conagra and big pharma has poisoned people with rancid peanuts, shit-bacteria covered spinach, and injected meningitis directly into people's spine. More deregulation and next thing we'll have the safety record of China.
 
[quote name='camoor']It is scary how much stuff the FDA is not regulating.

That's why when I hear talk about more deregulation I smh. Let's not mince words, at this point American conagra and big pharma has poisoned people with rancid peanuts, shit-bacteria covered spinach, and injected meningitis directly into people's spine. More deregulation and next thing we'll have the safety record of China.[/QUOTE]

Do you have any proof that any of these issues were due to deregulation?
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']Do you have any proof that any of these issues were due to deregulation?[/QUOTE]

Following a six-year, million dollar lobbying campaign by the International Academy of Compounding Pharmacists, Congress in 2007 prohibited the agency from exercising proper authority over these companies
...
As to the legislation they killed,

One version would have, among other things, strengthened the FDA's powers to inspect all retail pharmacies that make or dispense compounded medications. It would have required compounded drugs to get the same premarket approval from the FDA as generic drugs, and would require clinical trials in some instances. It also called for steps to restrict distribution of compounded medications beyond state lines. [...] Sarah Sellers, a former FDA official who worked on compliance issues involving compounding at the agency, says that "political pressure from the compounders" ultimately defeated the legislation.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne-doroshow/meningitis-fda_b_1990305.html

Before you kill the messenger, it's HuffPo quoting that great liberal bastion of newsmedia, the mother fucking Wall Street Journal.
 
[quote name='camoor']http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joanne-doroshow/meningitis-fda_b_1990305.html

Before you kill the messenger, it's HuffPo quoting that great liberal bastion of newsmedia, the mother fucking Wall Street Journal.[/QUOTE]

I didn't see much DEregulation, which is what you specifically mentioned. I also didn't see any mention of shit peanuts or whatever else you were rambling about.

It's pretty clear to me that the large compounders should be regulated by the FDA, but my non-expert opinion is that giving the FDA power over the corner drug store putting together a special cream seems a bit strange.
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']I didn't see much DEregulation, which is what you specifically mentioned. I also didn't see any mention of shit peanuts or whatever else you were rambling about.

It's pretty clear to me that the large compounders should be regulated by the FDA, but my non-expert opinion is that giving the FDA power over the corner drug store putting together a special cream seems a bit strange.[/QUOTE]

Splitting hairs and then a strawman.

Wow thanks for adding nothing to the thread. Moving on...
 
[quote name='camoor']Splitting hairs and then a strawman.

Wow thanks for adding nothing to the thread. Moving on...[/QUOTE]

Do you not see a difference between deregulation and not adding more regulations?

Do you not see a difference between NECC (the meningitis pharmacy) and corner drugstores that compound medicines?

The legislation that got killed had the potential to force compounded medicines to go through clinical trials and to force the corner drugstores to meet the same standards as GSK or other "big pharma".

Don't blame me for not adding value just because I disagree with your misreading of your own cite.

Are you going to substantiate your claims of deregulation causing any of those problems?
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']Do you not see a difference between deregulation and not adding more regulations?

Do you not see a difference between NECC (the meningitis pharmacy) and corner drugstores that compound medicines?

The legislation that got killed had the potential to force compounded medicines to go through clinical trials and to force the corner drugstores to meet the same standards as GSK or other "big pharma".

Don't blame me for not adding value just because I disagree with your misreading of your own cite.

Are you going to substantiate your claims of deregulation causing any of those problems?[/QUOTE]

Dangerous deregulation and fighting necessary new regulation is part-and-parcel of the same problem. The point is, we need regulation to protect us against shoddy mass compounding. God you are fucking dumb.

If there is a legitimate need for corner drug stores to do cocktail compounding, and it can be done safely and be reliably The solution is not to kill the bill but to amend it.

Also I haven't blamed you for jack squat. What do you work at a cutrate compounding factory or something?
 
[quote name='camoor']It is scary how much stuff the FDA is not regulating.

That's why when I hear talk about more deregulation I smh. Let's not mince words, at this point American conagra and big pharma has poisoned people with rancid peanuts, shit-bacteria covered spinach, and injected meningitis directly into people's spine. More deregulation and next thing we'll have the safety record of China.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='camoor']Splitting hairs and then a strawman.

Wow thanks for adding nothing to the thread. Moving on...[/QUOTE]

[quote name='camoor']Dangerous deregulation and fighting necessary new regulation is part-and-parcel of the same problem. The point is, we need regulation to protect us against shoddy mass compounding. God you are fucking dumb.

If there is a legitimate need for corner drug stores to do cocktail compounding, and it can be done safely and be reliably The solution is not to kill the bill but to amend it.

Also I haven't blamed you for jack squat. What do you work at a cutrate compounding factory or something?[/QUOTE]

As far as I can tell there are regulations in place, but the state department responsible looked the other way. I already said I was fine with the FDA regulating the large compounders, but you seem to be glossing that over. There are some indications that they have the ability to regulate these businesses but they simply aren't.

Have you ever had a drug compounded by a local pharmacy? It is necessary occasionally, and I am sure there are regulations. From the local pharmacy's standpoint there is no need to just amend the bill as it is probably easier to kill it.

You clearly blamed me for not adding value. It seems that while I was attempting to add nuance to the conversation, you are simply playing chicken little goes to the ad hominem festival.
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']As far as I can tell there are regulations in place, but the state department responsible looked the other way. I already said I was fine with the FDA regulating the large compounders, but you seem to be glossing that over. There are some indications that they have the ability to regulate these businesses but they simply aren't.

Have you ever had a drug compounded by a local pharmacy? It is necessary occasionally, and I am sure there are regulations. From the local pharmacy's standpoint there is no need to just amend the bill as it is probably easier to kill it.

You clearly blamed me for not adding value. It seems that while I was attempting to add nuance to the conversation, you are simply playing chicken little goes to the ad hominem festival.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what your game is. You want to talk about compound mass manufacturing by assholes who were able to inject poison directly into the spinal column of sick people then welcome.

However you seem determined to muddy the waters with large vs small compounders. This thread is not about small compounders. You want to talk about small compounders then create your own damn thread.
 
[quote name='camoor']I'm not sure what your game is. You want to talk about compound mass manufacturing by assholes who were able to inject poison directly into the spinal column of sick people then welcome.

However you seem determined to muddy the waters with large vs small compounders. This thread is not about small compounders. You want to talk about small compounders then create your own damn thread.[/QUOTE]

Good to know you have nothing. The regulation that was not passed dealt with small compounders also. When a law is proposed that only deals with the large compounders I'm sure it would be passed.
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']Good to know you have nothing. The regulation that was not passed dealt with small compounders also. When a law is proposed that only deals with the large compounders I'm sure it would be passed.[/QUOTE]

Why are you sure?
 
[quote name='camoor']Why are you sure?[/QUOTE]

1) it's fairly obvious that the large interstate compounders should fall under FDA authority as they are interstate
2) this meningitis outbreak has cast a spotlight on the issue and I doubt and sane lawmaker wants to be clearly on the side of killing old people
3) the lobby for the large compounders is likely much weaker than the lobby for all pharmacies in the US, and even if there is one organization that represents both they are unlikely to want to be on the record as supporting procedures that kill old people
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']1) it's fairly obvious that the large interstate compounders should fall under FDA authority as they are interstate
2) this meningitis outbreak has cast a spotlight on the issue and I doubt and sane lawmaker wants to be clearly on the side of killing old people
3) the lobby for the large compounders is likely much weaker than the lobby for all pharmacies in the US, and even if there is one organization that represents both they are unlikely to want to be on the record as supporting procedures that kill old people[/QUOTE]

You might want to read what Republicans actually say from time-to-time.

As Congress began debate on whether new laws are needed to help the U.S. Food and Drug Administration police the little-known drug compounding industry, Republicans in a committee hearing warned against the knee-jerk adoption of new regulation.

Instead, Republican members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee asserted that FDA already had the authority needed to move against errant pharmacy operations, long before the rare meningitis cases began appearing in September.
...
"After a tragedy like this, the first question we all ask is: could this have been prevented?" said U.S. Representative Cliff Stearns of Florida. "The answer here appears to be yes."
...
Some of Wednesday's contentious four-hour hearing amounted to a tug-of-war between Republicans skeptical of the need for more federal regulation, and Democrats and regulators who contend that primary responsibility for regulating large-scale compounding pharmacies can no longer be left to states alone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-usa-health-meningitis-idUSBRE8AE02520121115

Where's the part about Republicans wanting revised regulation legislation for large compounders, and the pharma lobbies agreeing? I haven't seen one word supporting this notion, and I humbly submit that it was wholly pulled out of your ass. Feel free to cite any articles that prove me wrong.
 
[quote name='camoor']You might want to read what Republicans actually say from time-to-time.



http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-usa-health-meningitis-idUSBRE8AE02520121115

Where's the part about Republicans wanting revised regulation legislation for large compounders, and the pharma lobbies agreeing? I haven't seen one word supporting this notion, and I humbly submit that it was wholly pulled out of your ass. Feel free to cite any articles that prove me wrong.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say the republicans wanted it. I said if a more limited bill were proposed it would probably pass.
 
[quote name='yourlefthand']I didn't say the republicans wanted it. I said if a more limited bill were proposed it would probably pass.[/QUOTE]

Where's one shred of proof that Republicans are willing to compromise on amended legislation?

These are the people who apologized to BP after the oil spill. They are slavish corporatists, and you're living in a fantasy world.
 
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