Microsoft getting sued over Xbox Live Outage

$5 million? How do you even come up with a number like that? The service has been down for what, 12 days (if that) now?
 
Maybe the $5 million is coming from being forced to go outside, getting hooked on alcohol and drugs, boning a woman with 16 various STDs, and getting mauled by a Tiger at a zoo.
 
they wont win, it's all in the EULA about service not being garunteed and what not. those texans will lucky if they're not counter-sued.
 
Ridiculous. Lawsuits should be reserved for times our rights are violated. MS should make up for the outage, no doubt, but the courts shouldn't be tied up for *games*. Sheesh.
 
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THESE GUYS SHOULD BE EXECUTE

seriously though is this what the world is comin to, if someone doesnt get their way its time to get sue happy
 
I definitely saw this happening. The 5 mill is probably aggregate damages for the millions who have suffered from M$'s negligence, not their personal damages. If any case was ever ripe for class status, it would be this, since everybody's damages are pretty much identical, and MS breached the same duty owed to us all.
 
[quote name='Ice2Dragon']Guess they arent electrocuting anyone this week in Texas and the texans need something to get all fired up about.[/quote]
We have upgraded to lethal injection.
 
[quote name='torifile']Ridiculous. Lawsuits should be reserved for times our rights are violated. MS should make up for the outage, no doubt, but the courts shouldn't be tied up for *games*. Sheesh.[/QUOTE]

I really can't 100% agree with you on this. You say Microsoft should make up for the outage, but why do you think they are giving you the free game? They are doing this to stem the chance of a class action suit (I speculated about this in the compensation thread before I read anything about this).

I wouldn't make much of the number. In cases like this, they throw out an extreme number, so that the judge can issue however much he/she likes for the punitive damages (the judge can only go as high as they are asked).

Also, I'm not sure the Terms of Service overally matter. If you read those for any company, they pretty much always say you can't sue them for such and such (boring reading), yet these companies get sued all the time. So, they have certain expectations.

I fully expect that Microsoft will settle this case for an undesclosed amount (likely for court costs and a couple years of XBLA service and some MS Points). But, they'll end up a lot better off than the rest of us, who will sign away their rights when they collect their free game.

Though, I like the timing of this. It may give us a better game. Last thing MS wants is for the bulk of the community to forego the free game in lieu of suing.
 
[quote name='Nate1986']THESE GUYS SHOULD BE EXECUTE[/quote]

fuck yes! They should have to perform indicated tasks according to encoded instructions.
 
[quote name='lordxixor101']I really can't 100% agree with you on this. You say Microsoft should make up for the outage, but why do you think they are giving you the free game? They are doing this to stem the chance of a class action suit (I speculated about this in the compensation thread before I read anything about this).

I wouldn't make much of the number. In cases like this, they throw out an extreme number, so that the judge can issue however much he/she likes for the punitive damages (the judge can only go as high as they are asked).

Also, I'm not sure the Terms of Service overally matter. If you read those for any company, they pretty much always say you can't sue them for such and such (boring reading), yet these companies get sued all the time. So, they have certain expectations.

I fully expect that Microsoft will settle this case for an undesclosed amount (likely for court costs and a couple years of XBLA service and some MS Points). But, they'll end up a lot better off than the rest of us, who will sign away their rights when they collect their free game.

Though, I like the timing of this. It may give us a better game. Last thing MS wants is for the bulk of the community to forego the free game in lieu of suing.[/quote]

Wow...you don't know a lot do you? Just because companies get sued all the time that doesn't mean anyone ever really wins. You agree to Microsoft's terms when you sign up for the service..unless there is an underlying specific law which Microsoft can't go against, you as the user are pretty much screwed.
 
[quote name='Malik112099']Wow...you don't know a lot do you? Just because companies get sued all the time that doesn't mean anyone ever really wins. You agree to Microsoft's terms when you sign up for the service..unless there is an underlying specific law which Microsoft can't go against, you as the user are pretty much screwed.[/quote]

You'd be surprised how often cases get settled despite user agreements. It will usually cost MS far less to settle than to litigate, though the amount they offer in settlement will usually depend on the merits of the plaintiffs' cases.
 
Has anyone found a link to the actual complaint yet? I need to get it for my collection. Any word on whether these are just 3 dudes who figured out how to file a lawsuit, or were they actually smart enough to hire an attorney? It would be shitty to have some random dipshits represent all XBL users as a class, when the issue of XBL outage may need to be seriously litigated in the future. Have they asked for other XBL users to join them in the suit yet?

Good discussion of the issues by an Xbox live ambassador (full disclosure) who also is an attorney at the following link:
http://lawofthegame.blogspot.com/2008/01/xbox-live-class-action.html

However, his narrative seems to minimize the issue and suggest that the free arcade game is a sufficent remedy. I disagree.
 
For those interested, these are the requirements for a case to be certified as a class action. The relevance? If individual plaintiffs get class status, it greatly adds to their bargaining power and will often exponentially increase the settlment offers. It is a "united we stand, divided we fall" reasoning. They're contained in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure Rule 23:

(a) Prerequisites. One or more members of a class may sue or be sued as representative parties on behalf of all members only if:


(1) the class is so numerous that joinder of all members is impracticable;


(2) there are questions of law or fact common to the class;


(3) the claims or defenses of the representative parties are typical of the claims or defenses of the class; and


(4) the representative parties will fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class.
 
[quote name='morpheusx']I haven't really had any issues at all with my xbox live service, But I usually only play late night.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it's generally been ok late at night (midnight-1am on) through early afternoon.
 
Interesting; I haven't seen the complaint, but the news stories are indicating that the plaintiffs are bringing a negligence, rather than a breach of contract claim against MS.
 
[quote name='lordxixor101']I really can't 100% agree with you on this. You say Microsoft should make up for the outage, but why do you think they are giving you the free game? They are doing this to stem the chance of a class action suit (I speculated about this in the compensation thread before I read anything about this).[/QUOTE]

I think the main reason for giving a free game is to keep their customers happy so they continue to pay for Live. It's not like anyone has a lifetime subscription, if people have problems with Live and no compensation they will stop paying for it.
 
[quote name='kevlar51']Interesting; I haven't seen the complaint, but the news stories are indicating that the plaintiffs are bringing a negligence, rather than a breach of contract claim against MS.[/QUOTE]

I could see that. If it really is just that the servers couldn't handle the increased load from the holidays, then that is pretty negligent.

MS readily knew that usage would spike with games like Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4 coming out, and selling a lot of 360's over the holidays.

If that's all that caused the problem, then one could argue that it was negligent not to expand server capacity greatly to be ready for it.

But I have a hard time imagining that's all the problem is, given that the service still sucks even with people being back at work, kids back in school etc.
 
I found the complaint on the Seattle times blog. http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.c...holiday_outages_prompts_class_action_law.html

Looks like they did hire a lawfirm (The Gibson Law frim). They do have a website.

Looks like a pretty quickly written complaint. No obvious errors though. Alleging everything under the sun.

I'm actually fairly surprised MS was giving XBL status updates prior to this lawsuit. I would have imagined their legal team might counsel them against making any statements regarding the condition of the service, as these are admissions against self interest (among other things) and clearly admissible in court.
 
[quote name='NWgamer666']I found the complaint on the Seattle times blog. http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/techtracks/2008/01/xbox_live_holiday_outages_prompts_class_action_law.html

Looks like they did hire a lawfirm (The Gibson Law frim). They do have a website.

Looks like a pretty quickly written complaint. No obvious errors though. Alleging everything under the sun.

I'm actually fairly surprised MS was giving XBL status updates prior to this lawsuit. I would have imagined their legal team might counsel them against making any statements regarding the condition of the service, as these are admissions against self interest (among other things) and clearly admissible in court.[/quote]


WARNING: Extremely Lawyerly info to follow, ignore if not interested!
Sorry to nitpick but you seem to be confusing some different evidentiary terms: Under the Federal Rules of Evidence there is no such thing as an "admission against self interest."

There is an admission, which must be made by a party member (meaning a party to the suit, eg. plaintiff or defendant).

Then there is a statement against interest, which is the same thing but not made by a party member (not a party to the suit, eg. plaintiff or defendant. Could be a witness or something).

Both are exceptions to the hearsay rule which excludes: "Out of court statements used to prove the truth of the matter asserted." About half of all the time in evidence was used learning about hearsay and its exceptions.

So yeah, technically there is no such thing as an "admission against interest."

FWIW: To win a Negligence case the plaintiff must prove by a preponderance of the evidnece (aka more likely than not, aka 51%): (1) Duty, (2) breach, (3) causation, and (4) damages.
 
The complaint only references "XBOX console systems," does that mean us 360 owners are SOL? ;) Also, they're primarily suing for breach of contract and warranty; the "negligence" claim applies to negligent misrepresentation.
 
Thats much more correct pitt. I guess I remember the concepts, but not the vocabulary. Guess I better cram that all in my brain soon.

Would you have advised XBL of the potential liability of doing status updates? In that these admissions may come back to haunt them.
 
[quote name='Malik112099']Wow...you don't know a lot do you? Just because companies get sued all the time that doesn't mean anyone ever really wins. You agree to Microsoft's terms when you sign up for the service..unless there is an underlying specific law which Microsoft can't go against, you as the user are pretty much screwed.[/QUOTE]
In that case, parties could sign a contract with no intention whatsoever of fulfilling since there's a catch all clause. They could simply close down Live tomorrow and keep everyone's money.

That's obviously an extreme view, but is the logical conclusion of your opinion. Reality is somewhere in between, and will depend heavily on the court.
 
I wouldn't sue over it, but for some users, this issue was larger than just not being able to play online via live. For instance, I had quite a few really annoying problems.

1. Multiple times, I went to play a new games, was told I needed to download an update to play it and then not able to get the download. Considering how many games have been released with glitches, I'm not too big a fan of playing a game without a patch that's been released to improve it's functionality. Plus, I like the achievement system and wouldn't want to play a game knowing my progress wouldn't count.

2. I sold my original 360 some time back and so the majority of my live arcade games on my new system won't play unless I'm signed into live. In other words, games I'd paid for but had absolutely no way of playing due to Live problems.

3. During the live problems, my profile somehow got corrupted and I had to format my hard drive. After that, I couldn't recover my gamertag for 3 days, so it was either don't play or play with a fake profile that wouldn't track my achievements, etc.

Like I said, I wouldn't sue over spotty performance for a couple weeks, but I understand people getting really pissed off and frustrated. Hopefully, the problems in December will be a one-time occurrence. If they get to be somewhat common, I'll sell my 360 and be done with it. People keep saying 'Live's only $40 a year.' That may be true, but when the problems are keeping you from playing games at all, you start questioning if it was worth spending hundreds of dollars on the console and games.
 
[quote name='NWgamer666']Thats much more correct pitt. I guess I remember the concepts, but not the vocabulary. Guess I better cram that all in my brain soon.

Would you have advised XBL of the potential liability of doing status updates? In that these admissions may come back to haunt them.[/QUOTE]

No problem man, here is a tip I was taught, just remember "You need to an admission to get into the party." This will help you remember that and admission must be made by a party member.

Hmm..damn dude this question: "Would you have advised XBL of the potential liability of doing status updates?" is easy for me in retrospect since I have the benefit of hindsight. HELL YES!! Shit you might risk a malpractice suit if you didn't. No doubt M$ has teams of lawyers workin for em', so in all likelihood they probably figured the PR gains outweighed the risk of potentially increased liability and culpability, especially where there is an argument that the status updates would be protected from entry into evidence.

You've probably learned that subsequent remedial measures (e.g. you fix a broken step after somebody got hurt on faulty stairs) are inadmissible, so perhaps this can be painted as a subequent remedial measure?? Seems like a weak argument to me. On the other hand (sorry to play devil's advocate) I would argue on behalf of M$ that the status updates kept the userbase informed, which is the first step to getting the melt-down repaired. They would have to prove the utility/necessity/benefit of an informed userbase as it related to getting the problem fixed. It's really a judgment call. I can see a judge letting it in or not.

A clear exampel of a subsequent remedial measure would be getting XBL fixed and I think it is isn't it? Seems like its been workin fine but havent tried to play COD4 in a while.
 
The lawsuit is crazy. Is anyone having issues right now? It's 7:35pm on Tuesday and it's taking about an hour minutes to download 1 new song in Rock Band. These feels like the days when I had dial up.
 
I'm sure you've read this by now Pitt but anyway:
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1579728/20080116/index.jhtml

The plaintiffs attorney speaks. Seems genuine. Now I'm swayed to his side of the argument (at least on a suit alleging negligence, breach of implied warranty). I may email him and find out what type of relief/damages he is seeking, and possibly join the class. I'd rather have MS proven wrong and have to acknolwedge the extent of the problems over a free game. 3 year warranty on RRoD is closer to making up for the hassle of getting a RRoD, but free arcade game does not equal XBL downtime.
Maybe we can discuss this via private chat on XBL.
 
[quote name='Indiana']The lawsuit is crazy. Is anyone having issues right now? It's 7:35pm on Tuesday and it's taking about an hour minutes to download 1 new song in Rock Band. These feels like the days when I had dial up.[/quote]

It took about 50 minutes to download Ecco the Dolphin a couple days ago. The download was about a mere 60 MBs. x_x;
 
12 days of no online gaming=5 milliion dollars?

sheit...12 days is mad expensive apparently.

well i hope the gamers actually win. M$ didnt respond to them about the service outage and they have every right to be outraged. i would be pissed too, if i coudnt log on to XBL and play COD 4 because M$ apparently cant handle the up in bandwidth of new users logging in. its like if you are at a restaurant and your completely ignored by all the waiters and waitresses. I know i would be throwing my fork at someone's head to get attention to my table. Shouldnt that have been forsight enough when they put out so many systems during the holidays? they must have some geniuses working their if they cant handle bandwidth with unlimited amount resources they have. M$ can be real pathetic at times.
 
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