Morality...

[quote name='fragmanslayer']If the market determines a price for an object and it is too high for your tastes you have the option to figure out how to afford it or wait til the pricepoint is in your range and then buy it..[/quote]

Absolutely.


[quote name='fragmanslayer']I was using the rental as an example. $8 is too much for me to rent a game for a week (not using the damn end-of-late-fees exploit) when I can buy games for cheaper. I prefer to borrow games from friends and let them borrow my games. Simple solution to having to pay MSRP for anything. I guess you pay that premium in order to OWN said merchandise in this case a videogame.[/quote]

Again, I'm cool with that. I don't generally like renting either, because I could usually find a game for around 20 bucks or less, so I might as well just buy it. [And using their policy isn't an 'exploit.'] Borrowing/lending/trading, sounds good too.

You dont own a bootleg, you own the media its on, but not the data that is on the media. Thats where the illegality comes into play. If there were no such thing as bootlegs though, people would not get to experience as much because they wouldnt be able to legitimately afford it.
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Correct on all counts. But your final argument is misleading--honest people don't get to experience as much as thieves, because thieves just take what they want while honest people wait till they legimitately afford it. Does that excuse thievery? No.

Could fansubs be compared to bootlegging games? I personally wouldnt mind saving money here and there by copying a game, but in the long run, it wouldnt be worth it. Fines, lawsuits, criminal activity, etc just wouldnt be worth it. IF you get caught.
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Fansubbing could definitely be compared to pirating games, with one addition: most fansubs are stuff that haven't been released over here. Where's the motivation for Geneon or whoever to release it over here, if there's already a lot fansubs floating around, for free?

Getting back to morality. Its only moral if you believe its not hurting anyone. Morals are a personal thing all in your mind. You can believe you are moral while others believe you are morally corrupt. It all depends on who is looking through the microscope.
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Hmm..I disagree slightly with this. Morality is not the absence of harm, it's the presence of virtue. Not quite the same thing.
"Its only moral if you believe its not hurting anyone." This sounds more like the legal definition of insanity, "at the time of the commission of the acts, the defendant, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. ' IE, he believed it didnt' hurt anyone.
 
[quote name='Kayden']
Smart ass... I don't mean the 3rd one or the psx copy.

I was refering to the original SNES copy. :p[/quote]

That's not a valid counterpoint. The game is available. Just because it's in a different format doesn't count as 'no longer in production.'

A ROM of Chrono Trigger would be in a different format from the original SNES as well.
 
[quote name='PsyClerk']Couple of points to consider, one pro, one con (hey, I like to stir the pot):

-Who's to say the game you pirate, in this case Suikoden 2, won't see a re-release? Retro-gaming is getting pretty large lately, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. By pirating it, you have directly hurt the developer, because that's at least one sale they probably won't make.

-On the other side of the same coin, I think there is a valid point about items no longer being available. What about a case of demand with NO supply? I want to play Extremely Obscure Arcade Game X. It was never translated to a console, and the company that made it went out of business a long time ago. It's likely that, due to a low production run, no cabinets or PCBs for this game exist anymore. The one known PCB was used to dump the ROM, then was lost/destroyed in the mail. What then? (I realize this is an extreme)[/quote]

Both great points... BUT, I have to disagree with the first one. I have a pirated copy of Valkyrie Profile. Yet, the first thing I did when Amazon posted some was order a copy. Now... $40 is a bit for an old game... but seeing how I did pirate it already, I can give a little more. However... if amazon wanted to sell it at 200... I'd say they could shove it.

[quote name='fragmanslayer']
Could fansubs be compared to bootlegging games? I personally wouldnt mind saving money here and there by copying a game, but in the long run, it wouldnt be worth it. Fines, lawsuits, criminal activity, etc just wouldnt be worth it. IF you get caught. [/quote]

Good point... fan subs of DBZ were around for years before Philips and Funimation got their crap together... is it wrong to get a copy of a show to watch in your native language?
 
I guess the pro side of piracy being moral is a losing battle.

If you want item X so badly but cant afford it you should not be AMERICAN and go into debt acquiring it. Inflated sales and what not are the reason why the majority of this great nation is up to their ears in debt. And because of the fact that they have no impulse control keeps them from organizing their lives and gettin out of debt. Just say no.

Back on topic, piracy hurts videogames ONLY if copies are still available/being made. If a game is sitting on a shelf, no one wants to buy it at that price. Eventually the price will come down (liquidation) to a point you want to buy it. If a game is no longer being made and you cant find a copy for sale at a reasonable price (big range here) then you will see piracy.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']
Awww bro, you missed my big point. But I'll address this first.

I'm referring to things like selling used games as new, selling display copies for the sealed price, and giving somebody $0.50 for a game and turning around and selling it for $10. Yes, I realize that this is all PERFECTLY legal, but I don't agree with it morally. That's just me.[/quote]

Okay, selling used as new I can have a question about, selling display as sealed as well [although the price is for 'new' not necessarily 'sealed'.] And the used-as-new argument can be used lots of other places--that 'new' car you just bought, already has 125 miles on it. That shirt you tried on, just got returned. Buying for .50 and selling for 10, I don't have a problem with--the trader-in doesn't have to accept the .50, and obviously the .50 is worth more to him than the game.

[quote name='evilmax17']
My big point was that when you pirate the game, you don't inherrit any of the benefits of the real mccoy. Your burned disk is worth approximately squat, and you don't get the box and manual. Alot of that $200 pricetag on eBay is collectability, and you aren't getting that when you download it. Look at Re2 and Re3 for GCN on eBay. Do you think people are paying $150 for the data on the disk? Or for the whole package?[/quote]

This is absolutely true. they're wanting the 'real thing', and certainly as complete as possible. But you using this to condone piracy, or speak against it, or just as a random factoid? I guess I don't get your point. In your original post you mentioned 'severely overpriced,' but again, that is a totally subjective measurement. 150 would be overpriced by any account for a homeburned CDR copy of any game, but for a legit complete game? Depends onthe buyer.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']I'm referring to things like selling used games as new, selling display copies for the sealed price, and giving somebody $0.50 for a game and turning around and selling it for $10. Yes, I realize that this is all PERFECTLY legal, but I don't agree with it morally. That's just me.[/quote]

But both parties involved in the last two example you give agree to the transaction, thus no wrong is done. If I agree to buy an old tire from you for $1000, as long as we agree to the transaction, there is no wrongdoing. It's stupid on my part, but stupid and wrong are two different things.

As for the selling used games as new, you have legal means to gain satisfaction should that occur (for all the talk of it, I have personally not seen it, but regardless...). And as stated before, you can always shop elsewhere. That is how it's supposed to work.
 
[quote name='PsyClerk'][quote name='Kayden']
Smart ass... I don't mean the 3rd one or the psx copy.

I was refering to the original SNES copy. :p[/quote]

That's not a valid counterpoint. The game is available. Just because it's in a different format doesn't count as 'no longer in production.'

A ROM of Chrono Trigger would be in a different format from the original SNES as well.[/quote]

*sigh*... fine, wanna nit pic?

Star Ocean 1... Japanese Not even release here
Super Mario RPG - Snes
EarthBound - snes
A Boy and His Blob - NES
MegaMan soccer- SNES
Trebble & Bass - Snes
... ...
well.. there are a lot of catridge only games with only one version.... Tons of games that can hardly be found... :p
 
[quote name='Kayden']Both great points... BUT, I have to disagree with the first one. I have a pirated copy of Valkyrie Profile. Yet, the first thing I did when Amazon posted some was order a copy. Now... $40 is a bit for an old game... but seeing how I did pirate it already, I can give a little more. However... if amazon wanted to sell it at 200... I'd say they could shove it.[/quote]

This goes back to the earlier point of "it's not piracy if it's out of my price range." If demand drives the price of an item out of your reach, then welcome to capitalism, my friend.
 
[quote name='fragmanslayer']I guess the pro side of piracy being moral is a losing battle.

If you want item X so badly but cant afford it you should not be AMERICAN and go into debt acquiring it. Inflated sales and what not are the reason why the majority of this great nation is up to their ears in debt. And because of the fact that they have no impulse control keeps them from organizing their lives and gettin out of debt. Just say no.

Back on topic, piracy hurts videogames ONLY if copies are still available/being made. If a game is sitting on a shelf, no one wants to buy it at that price. Eventually the price will come down (liquidation) to a point you want to buy it. If a game is no longer being made and you cant find a copy for sale at a reasonable price (big range here) then you will see piracy.[/quote]

Paragraph 1: Save your money till you can afford it. Yes, you're right, part of the problem as to the massive consumer debt is the same tthinking that leads to piracy: "I want this now, and I don't want to wait [until the price drops or I save money." So I use credit [not necessarily a bad thing], or pirate it [a bad thing.]

Paragraph 2: It doesnt' matter if piracy hurts video games/industry [which it does, regardless if the game is new, old, OOP, etc]. What matters is that piracy, taking someone else's IP illegally and immorally, is wrong, and everything else is a side issue.
 
I think were also starting to stretch too far from my idea...

I was asking about rare games that aren't made anymore.

Then things like houses, cars, clothes, forging... all came into play.

Being raped by property taxes and trying to get a rare game are very separate entities.

When you bring in piracy as a whole you get people ripping everything the second it comes out just to save money on retail.

I have nothing against waiting for the retail price to sink after a while... but when the price is only going up and I just want to play the game and not make an 'investment' ...

My point was to simply ask about what you guys thought about getting rare games to play for free. Not about fraud, imbezzlement, or any other fellony.
 
[quote name='Kayden']*sigh*... fine, wanna nit pic?

Star Ocean 1... Japanese Not even release here
Super Mario RPG - Snes
EarthBound - snes
A Boy and His Blob - NES
MegaMan soccer- SNES
Trebble & Bass - Snes
... ...
well.. there are a lot of catridge only games with only one version.... Tons of games that can hardly be found... :p[/quote]

And once again I point to my earlier post and ask who are you to say those games will not be re-released? If they were produced by a now-defunct company whose game rights were not purchased, then you might have a case. However, those you listed are owned by active companies. Find one that's not and we'll discuss it.

Also, there is a supply of those games out there. Now, when all copies of a game cartridge have degraded to no longer work, you might have a case. Unless the company that owns the game has the code somewhere, with plans for a re-release...etc etc.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']
Paragraph 2: It doesnt' matter if piracy hurts video games/industry [which it does, regardless if the game is new, old, OOP, etc]. What matters is that piracy, taking someone else's IP illegally and immorally, is wrong, and everything else is a side issue.[/quote]

So... you're saying that by playing BaseWars on an emulator... someone is hurting Nintendo?
 
This was a good conversation with good arguments and examples. Good brain exercises.

One last point I would like to raise. Do you think people who lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes, etc can live with themselves because of what they do? Is that because they are not moral or is that because they are really bad people.

Arent morals pushed on us by society. If society believes piracy is ok, then it is ok. As of right now, the corporations who believe and keep telling us that piracy is wrong means that it is wrong. They are only bitching because they THINK they are losing money when in fact they are making more money because more people are being exposed through piracy and purchasing NEW stuff. Goes for music, movies, possibly videogames. The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).
 
[quote name='Kayden']Its a well known fact that some of our favorite older games are becoming quite costly...

So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?[/quote]

you just opened up a huge can of worms bro...
 
[quote name='PsyClerk'][quote name='Kayden']*sigh*... fine, wanna nit pic?

Star Ocean 1... Japanese Not even release here
Super Mario RPG - Snes
EarthBound - snes
A Boy and His Blob - NES
MegaMan soccer- SNES
Trebble & Bass - Snes
... ...
well.. there are a lot of catridge only games with only one version.... Tons of games that can hardly be found... :p[/quote]

And once again I point to my earlier post and ask who are you to say those games will not be re-released? If they were produced by a now-defunct company whose game rights were not purchased, then you might have a case. However, those you listed are owned by active companies. Find one that's not and we'll discuss it.

Also, there is a supply of those games out there. Now, when all copies of a game cartridge have degraded to no longer work, you might have a case. Unless the company that owns the game has the code somewhere, with plans for a re-release...etc etc.[/quote]

*sigh*.... If they made a rerelease for a game I had pirated I would probably be tempted to buy it unless they messed it up ala MegaMan for GC... (I do own the ps2 version tho)

But again, I'm not arguing legality... I don't care if Capcom might release a crappy port of MegaMan Soccer in 20 years, I want to play it now and not play $100. I know its illegal, but I think all this intelectual property stuff is retarded... 'you cant use that, we might possibly think about considering using that idea later...

Hold your horses... Im saying its rediculous in the sense of sexual harasment or political correctness. A little is a good thing... Don't grab her boobies, don't call him a "slow or stupid person" (think N), and don't take credit for other peoples ideas... good principles... but now you cant lick your lips in the presence of a woman, arrest a minority without it being 'racial profiling' or make a mod or a homebrew game with your favorite characters because the owners want to squat on the rights. (Lucas arts stopped a bunch of people from making mods and what not because they featured Sam and Max (fully credited) because they planned on maybe making a game sometime later.... which they cancelled anyways)

This is a nation founded by great ideas executed by freaking morons that fuck everything up.
 
[quote name='fragmanslayer']This was a good conversation with good arguments and examples. Good brain exercises.

One last point I would like to raise. Do you think people who lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes, etc can live with themselves because of what they do? Is that because they are not moral or is that because they are really bad people.

Arent morals pushed on us by society. If society believes piracy is ok, then it is ok. As of right now, the corporations who believe and keep telling us that piracy is wrong means that it is wrong. They are only bitching because they THINK they are losing money when in fact they are making more money because more people are being exposed through piracy and purchasing NEW stuff. Goes for music, movies, possibly videogames. The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).[/quote]

There is no right and wrong... just what is socially acceptable and what is not.
 
[quote name='onetrackmind'][quote name='Kayden']Its a well known fact that some of our favorite older games are becoming quite costly...

So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?[/quote]

you just opened up a huge can of worms bro...[/quote]

Don't I know it... I'm trying to stomp the lid back on... but they just keep crawling out... oh the wiggling!
 
[quote name='polaricecaves']as soon as information is created it's up for grabs[/quote]

Damn straight. Information, sound, sights. Let's keep the rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer.
 
[quote name='fragmanslayer']The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).[/quote]

I resent that. No one is forcing anyone to file any lawsuits. Lawyers can't even really advertise (it used to be illegal but even today it is still heavily regulated). Attorneys fees are high because you are getting a service that cannot be performed by anyone else. What happened to the "if it's not worth it don't buy it" mentality that is all over this thread?

Being called a mofo is fine with me but if you want to be more accurate, please, say "rich mofo" instead... \:D/
 
[quote name='javeryh'][quote name='fragmanslayer']The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).[/quote]

I resent that. No one is forcing anyone to file any lawsuits. Lawyers can't even really advertise (it used to be illegal but even today it is still heavily regulated). Attorneys fees are high because you are getting a service that cannot be performed by anyone else. What happened to the "if it's not worth it don't buy it" mentality that is all over this thread?

Being called a mofo is fine with me but if you want to be more accurate, please, say "rich mofo" instead... \:D/[/quote]

:lol:
 
[quote name='Kayden']*sigh*.... If they made a rerelease for a game I had pirated I would probably be tempted to buy it unless they messed it up ala MegaMan for GC... (I do own the ps2 version tho)

But again, I'm not arguing legality... I don't care if Capcom might release a crappy port of MegaMan Soccer in 20 years, I want to play it now and not play $100. I know its illegal, but I think all this intelectual property stuff is retarded... 'you cant use that, we might possibly think about considering using that idea later...[/quote]

If it was YOUR intellectual property that had made millions of dollars, you would think differently. Therein lies the problem. Too many people cannot put themselves on the opposite end of their argument. You might say "well, if I made a game and it sold a billion copies, I would eventually let it go for free through emulation or whatever." You think that NOW. Once you've actually produced something, be it a game, a novel, a movie, just an idea, and that thing makes money for you, your perception WOULD change. This is why there are so many games where the dev(s) have asked that it NOT be distributed freely.

[quote name='Kayden']Hold your horses... Im saying its rediculous in the sense of sexual harasment or political correctness. A little is a good thing... Don't grab her boobies, don't call him a "slow or stupid person" (think N), and don't take credit for other peoples ideas... good principles... but now you cant lick your lips in the presence of a woman, arrest a minority without it being 'racial profiling' or make a mod or a homebrew game with your favorite characters because the owners want to squat on the rights. (Lucas arts stopped a bunch of people from making mods and what not because they featured Sam and Max (fully credited) because they planned on maybe making a game sometime later.... which they cancelled anyways)[/quote]

Making a homebrew game and pirating a commercially available game are two different things, and arguments about the former have no bearing on the original topic.

[quote name='Kayden']This is a nation founded by great ideas executed by freaking morons that shaq-fu everything up.[/quote]

Not sure what that has to do with the original topic.

The question we should ask is "Why hasn't JSweeney or epobirs (or even CornfedWB) weighed in yet?"
 
[quote name='fragmanslayer']This was a good conversation with good arguments and examples. Good brain exercises.

One last point I would like to raise. Do you think people who lie, cheat, steal, commit crimes, etc can live with themselves because of what they do? Is that because they are not moral or is that because they are really bad people.

Arent morals pushed on us by society. If society believes piracy is ok, then it is ok. As of right now, the corporations who believe and keep telling us that piracy is wrong means that it is wrong. They are only bitching because they THINK they are losing money when in fact they are making more money because more people are being exposed through piracy and purchasing NEW stuff. Goes for music, movies, possibly videogames. The money is all going to F'ing lawyers (aka asshats, sharks, good for nothing POS mofos).[/quote]

Society--and morals--and corporations--all have one thing in common. They all originate from people. "Society" isn't some third party thing.
I think piracy is wrong, regardless if anyone is 'hurt' by it, because in my mind it is akin to stealing, ie, taking what is not yours, and that also is wrong.

I have no problem with 'the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer' [even though right now the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting richer as well] if the rich are doing it legally and morally through hard work or creativity or offering something in demand, be it tangible or not.

And about the question:
"So... where to do yous stand on the issue of copies? Do you think we should be forced to pay 100+ for games we might not even like? Do you think emulators and mod chips are ok when used for games that are unreasonably priced on ebay?"

Piracy is wrong. You're not 'forced' to buy anything. If something is 'unreasonably priced' save up or wait for the price to drop or deal without it. None of that condones piracy. Someone else brought in the 'Wel, it doesn't hurt anyone argument, which, again, is irrelevant to the core issue.

I have no problem with 'trying to get a rare game' or book or dvd or video. I have a problem with the apparently widespread thinking, "Since I don't want to pay 50-200 bucks for it, it's ok to pirate it."
 
Alright, I'm going to bring up what I said earlier again to see what people think. When looking at rare OOP games, it can be safe to say that a good amount of the money they garner is because of collectibility and not necessarily because of their content (RE2/3 on GCN anybody?). This isn't to say that games like Suikoden II aren't good, but their value comes from their scarcity, and thus, collectibility.

When you download a ROM from the internet, you're gaining the ability to play the game. That's it. You don't get the case, box art, manual, official disks, none of it. You don't "own" Suikoden II after you burn the ROM onto a disk, you simply gain the ability to play the game.

Your burnt copy is worth the cd that its printed on. It has NO collectors value, or any of the value that you would associate eBay with. Alot of people have been making the arguement that this is taking a "sale" away from somebody else. How so?

How is this any different than borrowing the game from a friend? You'd get the same amount of play time, and the same gameplay experience. At the end of both situations, you still don't own the game, yet you've played it and beat it through.

Would you argue that borrowing videogames from friends is wrong? How is this any different? Could you consider the internet as a "universal" friend that you continually borrow games from?

Some food for thought.
 
[quote name='PsyClerk']If it was YOUR intellectual property that had made millions of dollars, you would think differently. Therein lies the problem. Too many people cannot put themselves on the opposite end of their argument. You might say "well, if I made a game and it sold a billion copies, I would eventually let it go for free through emulation or whatever." You think that NOW. Once you've actually produced something, be it a game, a novel, a movie, just an idea, and that thing makes money for you, your perception WOULD change. This is why there are so many games where the dev(s) have asked that it NOT be distributed freely.[/quote]

Making money is all fine and good, but the larger issue thats not being discussed here is "How long should copyrights last?"

Corporate lobbyists have been pushing for longer and longer terms over the last 30 years and the end result is that all intellectual property is "owned" forever.... which is ridiculous.

Where would Disney be without the original Grimm Brothers tales? Should we not be allowed to create our own interpretations of the work of previous artists without having to be worried about being sued for copyright infringement?

Eventually copyrights must die and intellectual property must join the commons where it can be used freely by the populace and the next generation of artists. We can debate whether that should be 25 years or 50 years, but its an essential part of culture that is now being threatened in the name of greed.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Alright, I'm going to bring up what I said earlier again to see what people think. When looking at rare OOP games, it can be safe to say that a good amount of the money they garner is because of collectibility and not necessarily because of their content (RE2/3 on GCN anybody?). This isn't to say that games like Suikoden II aren't good, but their value comes from their scarcity, and thus, collectibility.

When you download a ROM from the internet, you're gaining the ability to play the game. That's it. You don't get the case, box art, manual, official disks, none of it. You don't "own" Suikoden II after you burn the ROM onto a disk, you simply gain the ability to play the game.

Your burnt copy is worth the cd that its printed on. It has NO collectors value, or any of the value that you would associate eBay with. Alot of people have been making the arguement that this is taking a "sale" away from somebody else. How so?

How is this any different than borrowing the game from a friend? You'd get the same amount of play time, and the same gameplay experience. At the end of both situations, you still don't own the game, yet you've played it and beat it through.

Would you argue that borrowing videogames from friends is wrong? How is this any different? Could you consider the internet as a "universal" friend that you continually borrow games from?

Some food for thought.[/quote]

Try the same argument with the RIAA and see how they like it. When you download music from P2P networks, you don't get the jewel case, you don't get the silkscreened disc, no insert booklet. Didn't stop them from taking Napster to the cleaners.

When you "borrow" from the universal friend that is the internet, no one suffered the loss of access to their copy, BTW.
 
Even if it's 25 years, that is still far longer than any video game release, so that part of the discussion is irrelevant to this thread. And there's a difference between the idea of, say, a Snow White hanging out with 7 dwarfs falling into public domain, and the ability to copy the thousands/millions of lines of code that were written to create the specific entity known as "Donkey Kong" or "Suikoden II'.
Borrowing/renting is not the same as burning your own copy. There is still only one 'copy' of the work, and the owner of the *media* [not the work] can do what he wants with it--give it away, sell it, smash it, etc. When he lends or sells it, ownership of that 'copy' is transferred temporarily. Borrowing transfers ownership from one person to another, the internet allows one copy be cloned indefinitely.
 
[quote name='cheapass Gundam']Try the same argument with the RIAA and see how they like it. When you download music from P2P networks, you don't get the jewel case, you don't get the silkscreened disc, no insert booklet. Didn't stop them from taking Napster to the cleaners.

When you "borrow" from the universal friend that is the internet, no one suffered the loss of access to their copy, BTW.[/quote]

Again, i've already said that we're not argueing about legality. It's illegal, no bones about it. I'm not argueing about that. We're talking about if there's anything intrinsically wrong with it.

And again, I'm only talking about OOP games that you can't find in retail stores. I think that when you talk about piracy on current games, you start going down a very dark and dangerous road. With your RIAA analogy, you're talking about music that's widely and readily available. That's piracy for the WRONG reasons. I'm hypothesizing that there can be a RIGHT reason to pirate.

"Suffering the loss of access". I think this point is extremely moot. We have Suikoden II, that my friend has already beat and is letting me have for an undetermined amount of time. Really, is that you're only arguement for it?
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Borrowing/renting is not the same as burning your own copy. There is still only one 'copy' of the work, and the owner of the *media* [not the work] can do what he wants with it--give it away, sell it, smash it, etc. When he lends or sells it, ownership of that 'copy' is transferred temporarily. Borrowing transfers ownership from one person to another, the internet allows one copy be cloned indefinitely.[/quote]

You're right, millions of "copies" could be created. But none of these copies is of any worth. You could have a billion burned copies of RE2/3 for the GCN, and I seriously doubt that their eBay value would drop any. I think you're confusing the actual content, the actual game, with the physical product. You're right, when borrowing, there is only one PHYSICAL LEGIT copy (box manual etc). What does that have to do with somebody else playing it (burned or not).
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Even if it's 25 years, that is still far longer than any video game release, so that part of the discussion is irrelevant to this thread.[/quote]

No, its not.... especially since the videogame industry is about that old now.

Furthermore, it wont be that long until we're thinking of playstation games the way we think of nes and snes now.


[quote name='dtcarson']And there's a difference between the idea of, say, a Snow White hanging out with 7 dwarfs falling into public domain, and the ability to copy the thousands/millions of lines of code that were written to create the specific entity known as "Donkey Kong" or "Suikoden II'.[/quote]

Again... no there's not. Not when we're talking about who profits on the original work, which eventually should be nobody. (Especially once the original authors/creators are dead)
 
I don't believe in playing 'backups' for modern systems. That said, I don't care if someone uses MAME or an NES emulator. Doesn't hurt the industry one bit. Midway Arcade Treasures has sold well, which shows that MAME doesn't hurt sales. NES Classics for the Gameboy all sell well, even Super Mario 1, which shows NES emulation doesn't hurt Nintendo. For many people, emulation is the only way they will ever be able to play Japanese games. Check my collection, I own thousands of games and yet I still use Nester DC for the Dreamcast because it's the most effective way to play famicom games that never reached America.

I do believe Emulation is a good way to keep old games from fading into the sunset. That said, I think it's awful that websites have ROMs for GBA games. I think it's awful that people get mod chips for the sake of playing bootleg PS2 games. That hurts the industry. Why steal Grand Theft Auto 3 when it's only $20? That's my feelings on it. I use emulation because games like Eggerland Mystery Revival never came out in the United States. But if they came out tomorrow, I would buy it and never play the emulator again. If I found a used copy of it for sale, I would buy it. Emulation should be a means to playing a game you could otherwise never play. Only in that instance is it acceptable.
 
Someone could *always* profit on the original work, as was stated by the pro-pirates above [see: my music references.]

That is irrelevant.

Some things are wrong, even if no one is directly harmed.

And the difference I meant in that example was one of general versus specific, that is, Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs, is an ancient fairy tale. Certain *appearances* and dialog of the girl and dwarves are IP, but the idea is not. The idea of Donkey Kong is inherently attached to the code that creates the game.

I believe there is no 'right' reason to pirate. Virtually everything you would want to pirate, can be found if you're willing to pay the price.
And yes, pirating games even those that are OOP can have an effect on the purchasing of current games. How many people here find themselves having trouble paying 40-50 for a game because you're so good at getting them for 5-15? Now imagine if every game you wanted, you could download for free. You might have more money, but you'd have less time to play them or any you'd buy, and you'd have 'trouble' buying games when you got them 'for free.'

So to summarize:
The only pro-piracy arguments are:
Piracy is ok if it's for games that are not released new and are too expensive for my cheap ass.
Piracy is ok if, man, you know, it's *really* hard to find that game.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']I don't believe in playing 'backups' for modern systems. That said, I don't care if someone uses MAME or an NES emulator. Doesn't hurt me one bit. Midway Arcade Treasures has sold well, which shows that MAME doesn't hurt sales. For many people, emulation is the only way they will ever be able to play Japanese games. Check my collection, I thousands of games and yet I still use Nester DC for the Dreamcast because it's the most effective way to play famicom games that never reached America.
[/quote]

So it's okay, since it doesn't affect you?

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']I do believe Emulation is a good way to keep old games from fading into the sunset. That said, I think it's awful that websites have ROMs for GBA games. I think it's awful that people get mod chips for the sake of playing bootleg PS2 games. That hurts the industry. Why steal Grand Theft Auto 3 when it's only $20? [/quote]

Because 0 is less than 20, and as we've seen here, it's all about the dollar, even from those who constantly rail about evil Ebay or evil EB. The difference between 20 bucks and 200 bucks is one of quantity, not of kind.

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']That's my feelings on it. I use emulation because games like Eggerland Mystery Revival never came out in the United States. But if they came out tomorrow, I would buy it and never play the emulator again. If I found a used copy of it for sale, I would buy it. Emulation should be a means to playing a game you could otherwise never play. Only in that instance is it acceptable.[/quote]

You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Someone could *always* profit on the original work, as was stated by the pro-pirates above [/quote]

*bzzzzt*

Wrong.

Once a work becomes part of the commons, that is no longer a problem.

Do you see any books of Shakespeares works going for hundreds of dollars?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...103-5698973-9527028?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

"Washington Square Press" isnt profiting off of Shakespeares work, they're merely providing a service so you can own a copy of something that you could just as easily get off the internet for free or borrow from the library.

And thats the way it should be.


If the copyright on Suikoden II died, everyone would be able to legally get a copy and there would be no way to profit off it anymore.
 
dt:

Or you could borrow it for free from your friend. Or the internet. Go back and see my post about "value" as it pertains to burned games.

I equate imports with OOP games. As far as the game companies are concerned, we're never supposed to know that imported games even exist. They aren't released here, and they've designed their consoles to stop us from playing them. Your "you can find a way to play" arguement, that would include modding your console no? How is this OK? Wouldn't burning a copy of a game that "isn't available to you" finding a way to play?

But really, see my post about the value of burned games.
 
They're making *absolutely* no money off it? I find that difficult to believe. 4.99 is probably still more than their costs. It doesn't have to be 'hundreds of dollars' to be a profit.
If I'm getting it from the library, hate to tell you, it's not free. My 11000 in annual property taxes go to fund that library.
And I said someone 'could' always profit, not 'does' always profit.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']They're making *absolutely* no money off it? I find that difficult to believe. 4.99 is probably still more than their costs. It doesn't have to be 'hundreds of dollars' to be a profit.
If I'm getting it from the library, hate to tell you, it's not free. My 11000 in annual property taxes go to fund that library.
And I said someone 'could' always profit, not 'does' always profit.[/quote]

They are making a small profit (obviously), but its from the service they are providing, not the content of the work.

The fact that the content is now free prevents them from making money off Shakespeares corpse.
 
[quote name='evilmax17']Or you could borrow it for free from your friend. Or the internet. Go back and see my post about "value" as it pertains to burned games.

I equate imports with OOP games. As far as the game companies are concerned, we're never supposed to know that imported games even exist. They aren't released here, and they've designed their consoles to stop us from playing them. Your "you can find a way to play" arguement, that would include modding your console no? How is this OK? Wouldn't burning a copy of a game that "isn't available to you" finding a way to play?

But really, see my post about the value of burned games.[/quote]

But they do exist. And AFAIK, it's not illegal to play an import. You are buying a product that is for sale [assuming it's legitimately for sale, not produced by the Hong Kong mafia or whatever]. I'm sorry, after 'you can find a way to play' should be inferred 'without piracy or stealing.' Sure, the console manufacturers try to place roadblocks in the way of imports. As is their right. You don't have to buy their console, you can buy the Japanese or UK version if you want.
Value doesn't matter, except as it pertains to the buyer and the seller.
 
[quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='dtcarson']They're making *absolutely* no money off it? I find that difficult to believe. 4.99 is probably still more than their costs. It doesn't have to be 'hundreds of dollars' to be a profit.
If I'm getting it from the library, hate to tell you, it's not free. My 11000 in annual property taxes go to fund that library.
And I said someone 'could' always profit, not 'does' always profit.[/quote]

They are making a small profit (obviously), but its from the service they are providing, not the content of the work.

The fact that the content is now free prevents them from making money off Shakespeares corpse.[/quote]

Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.
 
You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.
Click to expand...

Your argument is that we should go to Buy-Rite, the biggests thieves and con artists in the history of video game retail. Sorry, that's not a good way to make your point.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']
You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.
Click to expand...

Your argument is that we should go to Buy-Rite, the biggests thieves and con artists in the history of video game retail. Sorry, that's not a good way to make your point.[/quote]

The point is still valid. I chose Buy Rite because I know they sell imports, I don't do imports, so I don't know where else they could be bought. The fact they aren't a very good business has nothing to do with what they sell. How aboutLikSang? PlayAsia?
My argument was that there are legitimate sources to easily buy import games and systems. If BuyRite are crooks, and they sell US games as well, your 'logic' implies we shouldn't buy any games at all because one vendor of them is crooked. I got sick once off eating seafood, so I shouldn't eat food at all, by your logic.

Fine. Erase BuyRite and insert in its place
Tronixweb
VideoGameDepot
NCSX
TheRage
Jandaman
NewAgeConsoles

Thanks, you proved my point. A five second Google turned up multiple places where these imports are easily available.

And if the original question is morality, not legality [which it is], I personally thinking buying imports is more moral than pirating games, new or old, standard or OOP.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Someone could *always* profit on the original work, as was stated by the pro-pirates above [see: my music references.]

That is irrelevant.

Some things are wrong, even if no one is directly harmed.

And the difference I meant in that example was one of general versus specific, that is, Snow White and the 7 Dwarfs, is an ancient fairy tale. Certain *appearances* and dialog of the girl and dwarves are IP, but the idea is not. The idea of Donkey Kong is inherently attached to the code that creates the game.

I believe there is no 'right' reason to pirate. Virtually everything you would want to pirate, can be found if you're willing to pay the price.
And yes, pirating games even those that are OOP can have an effect on the purchasing of current games. How many people here find themselves having trouble paying 40-50 for a game because you're so good at getting them for 5-15? Now imagine if every game you wanted, you could download for free. You might have more money, but you'd have less time to play them or any you'd buy, and you'd have 'trouble' buying games when you got them 'for free.'

So to summarize:
The only pro-piracy arguments are:
Piracy is ok if it's for games that are not released new and are too expensive for my cheap ass.
Piracy is ok if, man, you know, it's *really* hard to find that game.[/quote]


When I was a poor confused middle schooller I used to pirate PSX games. Now I find myself buying the games I already have copies of because I want to actually own them. I beat a copy of Wild Arms 4 years ago... Two days ago I just bought it. I enjoyed the game so much, I bought Wild Arms III as soon as it came out. A purchase I probably wouldn't have made with out the pirated copy. Playing a copy of a game makes me more willing to buy the game than had I not played it at all... unless of course I hated it... In which case I shattered the CD. ...I'm looking at you Alundra...

I downloaded StarCraft years ago. As soon as I finished the first campain I ran right out and bought it and the expansion. I still have it today and love it to death....

Sure, it's about saving money... Its like an enhanced, full featured demo. Pirating games may hurt the industry... but in the case of Tomb Raider... I don't think thats a bad thing. Almost every game I've pirated and kept I've purchased. The ones I didn't like I got rid of. There is also a game I cant find anywhere called Metal Fatigue (7+ years old)... I finally found it for download somewhere... come to find out, the game wont run for beans. So I deleted the download. Not only did it save me from losing money... but it kept me from supporting crap.
 
[quote name='dtcarson']Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.[/quote]

No, they are profitting from the service, not the content.

The fact that anyone can publish it negates the ability to profit off the work itself. The product will always be driven down to at cost, or barely above cost. Therefore they are profitting off some pages, ink and a cover, not the content of the work.
 
I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it. Some games you will never find no matter how hard you look. And I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.
 
[quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='dtcarson']Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.[/quote]

No, they are profitting from the service, not the content.

The fact that anyone can publish it negates the ability to profit off the work itself. The product will always be driven down to at cost, or barely above cost. Therefore they are profitting off some pages, ink and a cover, not the content of the work.[/quote]

They are *absolutely* profiting off Shakespeare. I don't buy from them because of the cool cover, I buy from them because of the content. If I don't want to read Shakespeare, I'm not going to buy their book no matter how nice the printing is or how black the ink is. Without Shakespeare, they would not have that item for sale. Assuredly, they would sell some other titles, so it's more accurate to say they are profiting off Shakespeare and Dickens and Wilde etc, they vary their offerings, but without those authors, they would have nothing to sell.
And again, the issue of 'does the original creator profit' does not affect the question 'is piracy moral'.
And the amount or percent of profit, again, is irrelevant. A profit is a profit, and all businesses [and people] want to maximize their profit/dollar.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it. Some games you will never find no matter how hard you look. And I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.[/quote]

Just out of curiousity, why do YOU think that is? Why would MAT and NC still do well despite MAME, but that principle wouldn't apply to old (or hell, even current) console games?

Just curious?
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']
You can always find a way to play. Lik-Sang, Buy-Rite, PlayAsia, many other places sell imported games and systems. And again, the internet has made it quite possible to find these things very easily, whereas only 10 yeras ago, you might have to know someone who lives or goes to Japan.
Click to expand...

Your argument is that we should go to Buy-Rite, the biggests thieves and con artists in the history of video game retail. Sorry, that's not a good way to make your point.[/quote]

Now, no one ever said doing the 'right' thing was cheap...


dtcarson... are you some kind of... ... I don't even know how to say it... moral zealot? You're so ferverant about this its like your parents were killed by pirates... The Hong Kong kind... not the eye patch 'arrrrggg' kind...
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']I own authetic copies of over 100 imported games for a wide range of systems. If I can find it, I buy it. [/quote]

Good for you. [serious, not sarcastic].

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']ISome games you will never find no matter how hard you look. .[/quote]

I find this difficult to believe. Do you mean 'some games you will never find for a cheap price no matter how hard you look.'

[quote name='Survivor Charlie']IAnd I support emulation only for classic machines and arcade machines. Midway Arcade Treasures, Activision Anthology, Atari Anthology, and Namco Classics all sold well, along with those plug-and-play controllers. That's all the proof you need that MAME doesn't hurt the industry. If anything, it helps it.[/quote]

MAME, though big on the internet, I believe has a much smaller active fanbase than the potential audience for those games-in-a-controller sets, or the anthology disks. I would be interested in seeing relative numbers on sales/downloads of each, and if the userbases bisected or not.
 
[quote name='dtcarson'][quote name='Hereticked'][quote name='dtcarson']Hate to tell you, they are making money off Shakespeare's corpse. If I buy Much Ado About Nothing from them, they're printing it, Willie Shakes wrote it. Hence, they are profiting from him. I never said it was from the content or the service, but if I'm interested in Shakespeare and only Shakespeare, and buy from them, obviously they are profiting off his work.[/quote]

No, they are profitting from the service, not the content.

The fact that anyone can publish it negates the ability to profit off the work itself. The product will always be driven down to at cost, or barely above cost. Therefore they are profitting off some pages, ink and a cover, not the content of the work.[/quote]

They are *absolutely* profiting off Shakespeare. I don't buy from them because of the cool cover, I buy from them because of the content. If I don't want to read Shakespeare, I'm not going to buy their book no matter how nice the printing is or how black the ink is. Without Shakespeare, they would not have that item for sale. Assuredly, they would sell some other titles, so it's more accurate to say they are profiting off Shakespeare and Dickens and Wilde etc, they vary their offerings, but without those authors, they would have nothing to sell.
And again, the issue of 'does the original creator profit' does not affect the question 'is piracy moral'.
And the amount or percent of profit, again, is irrelevant. A profit is a profit, and all businesses [and people] want to maximize their profit/dollar.[/quote]

I really think you're missing his point.

They aren't selling Shakespeare as their work for $40 a book. They are making money from his work, but they are not making cheap knock offs or gouging prices or stealing his work. The basis of their price is to recoupe the expense of the materials and to get some profit for the actual task.
To compare this to games...

CAG could get together and start copying old PSX games. We'd sell them for like $5 to cover disks, other materials, time, effort, etc. We wouldn't be saying we made Parasite Eve 2, we'd just be offering a copy of it... ofcourse, this would require Squeenix to be dead for about 1000 years... :roll:
 
[quote name='Kayden']

dtcarson... are you some kind of... ... I don't even know how to say it... moral zealot? You're so ferverant about this its like your parents were killed by pirates... The Hong Kong kind... not the eye patch 'arrrrggg' kind...[/quote]

I could flip the question, and ask if your parents were killed by evil capitalists or G-Men or something.
No, my parents taught me some things are right, some things are wrong, you shouldn't steal, and to respect the work of others.
I have beliefs, some of which are very strongly held, and while I generally don't try to 'force' them on others, in open discussions, especially where it was solicited, I certainly will try to debate and defend and support them as best I can.
I have pirated games before, I'm not a holy man. And much of what I said above applied to me as well [I bought fewer games, I enjoyed them less, I got real cheap for a long time, etc]. I never, however, thought I was doing the 'right' thing. I knew it was stealing/wrong, and admitted to myself that I was doing it because I was cheap.
That's what gets me, these defensive manuevers, these excuses, [It doesn't hurt anybody, No one's profiting, Poor me, I can't get the game any other way, etc], rather than just saying 'Hey, I want all the games I can get, so I'm going to pirate them.' That, again, is wrong, but at least it's 'honest.' That dishonesty, and they hypocricy of saying 'I want to stretch my dollar, but it's not ok for anyone else to maximise their profit.'
 
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