mykevermin
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More Old-Timey Racism in the Presidential Campaign
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VanillaGorilla
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Yeah, pretty racist. Obama's real-life prehensile tail is longer.
usickenme
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I thought this was about Fox News labeling Michelle Obama as "Obama's baby mama."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvZEZL2LmA8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvZEZL2LmA8
thrustbucket
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Oh dang I was hoping the tape of Mrs. Obama saying "whitey" finally surfaced.
But I should have known better, if it had, it wouldn't be from this OP.
But I should have known better, if it had, it wouldn't be from this OP.
mykevermin
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[quote name='VanillaGorilla']Yeah, pretty racist. Obama's real-life prehensile tail is longer.[/QUOTE]
Hot diggity, lookit the vocabulary on you.
Hot diggity, lookit the vocabulary on you.
VanillaGorilla
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[quote name='mykevermin']Hot diggity, lookit the vocabulary on you.[/quote]I've known that word since the 3rd grade, Professor.
level1online
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[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=LpocrqvP2Yg[/media]
thrustbucket
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[quote name='pittpizza']It beats "recession, war, recession, war, war, recession, recession."[/QUOTE]
I don't recall any candidate ever saying that. Obama actually does say "hope" or "change" every other word.
[/QUOTE]I don't recall any candidate ever saying that. Obama actually does say "hope" or "change" every other word.
[quote name='mykevermin']http://commentsfromleftfield.com/2008/06/a-quick-remedial-course-in-racist-iconography[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but the opinions of others do not change my own. I prefer to think for myself rather than let some guy's blog post dictate my opinion, and I just don't see this as racist.
Obama looks sort of monkeyish, it's true. It's mostly the ears. It's not because he's black -- some white people look monkeyish too. Recall Bush or Chimp? Keep in mind that site was made back before Bush was even president.
All of the candidates (and their supporters) have been trying to play the role of victim to bigotry, and it's absolutely pathetic. McCain is doing it about age, Hillary did it about gender, and Obama does it about race. Now, don't get me wrong, I totally believe racism is much more prevalent than sexism or ageism -- in fact, I've made several posts here highlighting the prejudice Obama faced during the primaries. Sometimes, though, saying somebody looks like a monkey just means somebody looks like a monkey.
Nobody claimed racism during the past 8 years when Bush was compared to a chimp, yet people cry when Obama gets the same treatment...
Sorry, but the opinions of others do not change my own. I prefer to think for myself rather than let some guy's blog post dictate my opinion, and I just don't see this as racist.
Obama looks sort of monkeyish, it's true. It's mostly the ears. It's not because he's black -- some white people look monkeyish too. Recall Bush or Chimp? Keep in mind that site was made back before Bush was even president.
All of the candidates (and their supporters) have been trying to play the role of victim to bigotry, and it's absolutely pathetic. McCain is doing it about age, Hillary did it about gender, and Obama does it about race. Now, don't get me wrong, I totally believe racism is much more prevalent than sexism or ageism -- in fact, I've made several posts here highlighting the prejudice Obama faced during the primaries. Sometimes, though, saying somebody looks like a monkey just means somebody looks like a monkey.
Nobody claimed racism during the past 8 years when Bush was compared to a chimp, yet people cry when Obama gets the same treatment...
speedracer
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The difference being white people have been using variations of monkeys as racist slurs against black for what...a couple hundred years now? Porch monkey anyone?
Trancendental
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So what's your point. That there are some people in America that are still racist? I'm shocked.
This is just sensationalist popcorn news, on the same level as "Paris Hilton shows of her hoo-haw for the 532nd time"
This is just sensationalist popcorn news, on the same level as "Paris Hilton shows of her hoo-haw for the 532nd time"
mykevermin
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Your contrarian gimmick is boring.
[quote name='Koggit']Nobody claimed racism during the past 8 years when Bush was compared to a chimp, yet people cry when Obama gets the same treatment...[/quote]
I know right, and when you call a black guy a $$$$er it's all "you're a racist," but when you call a white guy a $$$$er it's like it doesn't even matter! If you cover your face with black paint with red lips and dance around you're "racist," by acting out a "history of racist imitation and humiliation," but if you cover your face with white paint and dance around you're just a
ing mime! It's a crazy double standard I tells ya!
I know right, and when you call a black guy a $$$$er it's all "you're a racist," but when you call a white guy a $$$$er it's like it doesn't even matter! If you cover your face with black paint with red lips and dance around you're "racist," by acting out a "history of racist imitation and humiliation," but if you cover your face with white paint and dance around you're just a
ing mime! It's a crazy double standard I tells ya!thrustbucket
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[quote name='SpazX']I know right, and when you call a black guy a $$$$er it's all "you're a racist," but when you call a white guy a $$$$er it's like it doesn't even matter! If you cover your face with black paint with red lips and dance around you're "racist," by acting out a "history of racist imitation and humiliation," but if you cover your face with white paint and dance around you're just a ing mime! It's a crazy double standard I tells ya![/QUOTE]
Well this is why making fun of any minority on any level in this country is always considered racism. Making fun of any white person (because they are considered the majority still) on any level for any reason is considered a good comedy routine.
Welcome to probably the most prevalent example of political correctness in our society.
ing mime! It's a crazy double standard I tells ya![/QUOTE]Well this is why making fun of any minority on any level in this country is always considered racism. Making fun of any white person (because they are considered the majority still) on any level for any reason is considered a good comedy routine.
Welcome to probably the most prevalent example of political correctness in our society.
mykevermin
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Well this is why making fun of any minority on any level in this country is always considered racism. Making fun of any white person (because they are considered the majority still) on any level for any reason is considered a good comedy routine.
Welcome to probably the most prevalent example of political correctness in our society.[/QUOTE]
If you want to overlook hegemony, then sure, perhaps you're onto something.
Welcome to probably the most prevalent example of political correctness in our society.[/QUOTE]
If you want to overlook hegemony, then sure, perhaps you're onto something.
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well this is why making fun of any minority on any level in this country is always considered racism. Making fun of any white person (because they are considered the majority still) on any level for any reason is considered a good comedy routine.
Welcome to probably the most prevalent example of political correctness in our society.[/quote]
Please tell me an insult for white people that has the same meaning as $$$$er. Right now I can't think of any.
Welcome to probably the most prevalent example of political correctness in our society.[/quote]
Please tell me an insult for white people that has the same meaning as $$$$er. Right now I can't think of any.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='mykevermin']If you want to overlook hegemony, then sure, perhaps you're onto something.[/QUOTE]
Hegemony might be the reason for the double standard, but it isn't an excuse. Nor does it justify it in any way.
[quote name='SpazX']Please tell me an insult for white people that has the same meaning as $$$$er. Right now I can't think of any.[/QUOTE]
That would really depend on what you mean by "meaning of $$$er". That's a potential 3-5 page debate alone, that would undoubtedly include a history lesson from mykevermin.
There are lots of racial slurs, probably the most common I hear is "Cracker" or "Whitey" (which would be more equivalent to calling a black person "darkey", which is still a slur). Now as to whether those words are as harmful is quite relative and debatable.
Hegemony might be the reason for the double standard, but it isn't an excuse. Nor does it justify it in any way.
[quote name='SpazX']Please tell me an insult for white people that has the same meaning as $$$$er. Right now I can't think of any.[/QUOTE]
That would really depend on what you mean by "meaning of $$$er". That's a potential 3-5 page debate alone, that would undoubtedly include a history lesson from mykevermin.
There are lots of racial slurs, probably the most common I hear is "Cracker" or "Whitey" (which would be more equivalent to calling a black person "darkey", which is still a slur). Now as to whether those words are as harmful is quite relative and debatable.
[quote name='thrustbucket']That would really depend on what you mean by "meaning of $$$er". That's a potential 3-5 page debate alone, that would undoubtedly include a history lesson from mykevermin.
There are lots of racial slurs, probably the most common I hear is "Cracker" or "Whitey" (which would be more equivalent to calling a black person "darkey", which is still a slur). Now as to whether those words are as harmful is quite relative and debatable.[/quote]
Well, first I'll say that I don't think it is debatable. It's simply not possible to have an equivalent insult towards white people because of what the word represents.
But this is all a tangent that I shouldn't have started and so I'll just end it here.
My original point was just that what Koggit said was ridiculous. Calling a white guy a monkey isn't racist just like calling a white guy a $$$$er isn't racist (unless you were doing some kind of comparative thing like "you're acting like a $$$$er" in which case it would be racist, but again towards blacks and not whites). Nor would calling a white guy a chink or a $$$$ or any racial slur that doesn't apply to white people be racist. The same terminology is obviously not racist in every context and so a comment like Koggit's doesn't make any sense.
The blackface/mime thing was just a little bonus to illustrate the same point. Right after I posted it I was thinking clown might work better than mime, but whatever.
There are lots of racial slurs, probably the most common I hear is "Cracker" or "Whitey" (which would be more equivalent to calling a black person "darkey", which is still a slur). Now as to whether those words are as harmful is quite relative and debatable.[/quote]
Well, first I'll say that I don't think it is debatable. It's simply not possible to have an equivalent insult towards white people because of what the word represents.
But this is all a tangent that I shouldn't have started and so I'll just end it here.
My original point was just that what Koggit said was ridiculous. Calling a white guy a monkey isn't racist just like calling a white guy a $$$$er isn't racist (unless you were doing some kind of comparative thing like "you're acting like a $$$$er" in which case it would be racist, but again towards blacks and not whites). Nor would calling a white guy a chink or a $$$$ or any racial slur that doesn't apply to white people be racist. The same terminology is obviously not racist in every context and so a comment like Koggit's doesn't make any sense.
The blackface/mime thing was just a little bonus to illustrate the same point. Right after I posted it I was thinking clown might work better than mime, but whatever.
pittpizza
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Completely agree that Koggit is off his rocker in his view on this.
Monkey is a racist slur to black people. End of story.
If you were to ask anybody, what race does "Monkey" slur, everyone would know. That is why it is different than typical political satire and why it is racist.
Monkey is a racist slur to black people. End of story.
If you were to ask anybody, what race does "Monkey" slur, everyone would know. That is why it is different than typical political satire and why it is racist.
mykevermin
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[quote name='thrustbucket']There are lots of racial slurs, probably the most common I hear is "Cracker" or "Whitey" (which would be more equivalent to calling a black person "darkey", which is still a slur). Now as to whether those words are as harmful is quite relative and debatable.[/QUOTE]
NO.
NO.
I talked to my dad (south louisiana sugar cane farmer) today, being Father's Day and all. My dad asked who I supported for president, and when I said Obama he was rather outraged, because "He's Muslim." When I said he was Christian, I was treated to "Yeah but didn't you hear what his preacher said?"
I brought up that McCain's preacher claimed we earned Katrina as god's wrath for all the sinning homosexuals, and his response was simply "No way in hell I'd ever vote for somebody named Hussein."
I brought up that McCain's preacher claimed we earned Katrina as god's wrath for all the sinning homosexuals, and his response was simply "No way in hell I'd ever vote for somebody named Hussein."
VanillaGorilla
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White people aren't allowed to be outraged if someone calls them a racial slur. It's like if Michael Jordan starts complaining to the refs if he gets called for a foul. MJ got all the calls for 16 years, time to start evening things off a bit.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='mykevermin']NO.[/QUOTE]
[quote name='VanillaGorilla']White people aren't allowed to be outraged if someone calls them a racial slur. It's like if Michael Jordan starts complaining to the refs if he gets called for a foul. MJ got all the calls for 16 years, time to start evening things off a bit.[/QUOTE]
And this is why we, as a society, fail.
We've gotten to the point where we actually think we can dull out permission or some PC grading system, for who is allowed to be more offended by bigoted remarks.
Pathetic.
**************************************
Little 6 year old white girl (crying): "Daddy, that boy keeps calling me cracker"
Father: "It's ok, you shouldn't be upset about that. You know, just make sure you never call him the N word, because that's far worse"
Little girl: "Why is that worse? Why can't I feel bad when he calls me "Cracker"?
Father: "Oh honey, it's because your white and he's not. You'll understand some day why it's worse when he gets called names than when you do. It's all about history and this thing called hegemony. And there are different rules depending on what color you are, even today."
Little girl: "I don't understand, it still hurts when he calls me names...."
[quote name='VanillaGorilla']White people aren't allowed to be outraged if someone calls them a racial slur. It's like if Michael Jordan starts complaining to the refs if he gets called for a foul. MJ got all the calls for 16 years, time to start evening things off a bit.[/QUOTE]
And this is why we, as a society, fail.
We've gotten to the point where we actually think we can dull out permission or some PC grading system, for who is allowed to be more offended by bigoted remarks.
Pathetic.
**************************************
Little 6 year old white girl (crying): "Daddy, that boy keeps calling me cracker"
Father: "It's ok, you shouldn't be upset about that. You know, just make sure you never call him the N word, because that's far worse"
Little girl: "Why is that worse? Why can't I feel bad when he calls me "Cracker"?
Father: "Oh honey, it's because your white and he's not. You'll understand some day why it's worse when he gets called names than when you do. It's all about history and this thing called hegemony. And there are different rules depending on what color you are, even today."
Little girl: "I don't understand, it still hurts when he calls me names...."
Trancendental
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[quote name='thrustbucket']And this is why we, as a society, fail.
We've gotten to the point where we actually think we can dull out permission or some PC grading system, for who is allowed to be more offended by bigoted remarks.
Pathetic.
**************************************
Little 6 year old white girl (crying): "Daddy, that boy keeps calling me cracker"
Father: "It's ok, you shouldn't be upset about that. You know, just make sure you never call him the N word, because that's far worse"
Little girl: "Why is that worse? Why can't I feel bad when he calls me "Cracker"?
Father: "Oh honey, it's because your white and he's not. You'll understand some day why it's worse when he gets called names than when you do. It's all about history and this thing called hegemony. And there are different rules depending on what color you are, even today."
Little girl: "I don't understand, it still hurts when he calls me names...."[/quote]
I'm willing to bet that the amount of people enthusiastically jumping up and down cheering to Rev. Wright's 'greatest hits' speech far outnumber the people who bought one of these dopey dolls made by an ignorant Utah couple. Myke's take on hegemony in modern society is very strange, dare I say myopic.
We've gotten to the point where we actually think we can dull out permission or some PC grading system, for who is allowed to be more offended by bigoted remarks.
Pathetic.
**************************************
Little 6 year old white girl (crying): "Daddy, that boy keeps calling me cracker"
Father: "It's ok, you shouldn't be upset about that. You know, just make sure you never call him the N word, because that's far worse"
Little girl: "Why is that worse? Why can't I feel bad when he calls me "Cracker"?
Father: "Oh honey, it's because your white and he's not. You'll understand some day why it's worse when he gets called names than when you do. It's all about history and this thing called hegemony. And there are different rules depending on what color you are, even today."
Little girl: "I don't understand, it still hurts when he calls me names...."[/quote]
I'm willing to bet that the amount of people enthusiastically jumping up and down cheering to Rev. Wright's 'greatest hits' speech far outnumber the people who bought one of these dopey dolls made by an ignorant Utah couple. Myke's take on hegemony in modern society is very strange, dare I say myopic.
[quote name='thrustbucket']And this is why we, as a society, fail.
We've gotten to the point where we actually think we can dull out permission or some PC grading system, for who is allowed to be more offended by bigoted remarks.
Pathetic.
**************************************
Little 6 year old white girl (crying): "Daddy, that boy keeps calling me cracker"
Father: "It's ok, you shouldn't be upset about that. You know, just make sure you never call him the N word, because that's far worse"
Little girl: "Why is that worse? Why can't I feel bad when he calls me "Cracker"?
Father: "Oh honey, it's because your white and he's not. You'll understand some day why it's worse when he gets called names than when you do. It's all about history and this thing called hegemony. And there are different rules depending on what color you are, even today."
Little girl: "I don't understand, it still hurts when he calls me names...."[/QUOTE]
C'mon Thrust, don't play dumb. The meaning of a word is defined by its use. Just like bitch was a more offensive word 10 years ago than it is today, n***** is more offensive than cracker because of its use. There's no white equivalent, cracker does not carry the same weight of distaste. Cracker carries about the same weight as "darkie".
N***** is used, almost exclusively, by racists. They say it with utter disgust, with a deep hatred for blacks. No word for whites is used that way. If there were a word for whites equivalent, it would not be okay to say it.
We've gotten to the point where we actually think we can dull out permission or some PC grading system, for who is allowed to be more offended by bigoted remarks.
Pathetic.
**************************************
Little 6 year old white girl (crying): "Daddy, that boy keeps calling me cracker"
Father: "It's ok, you shouldn't be upset about that. You know, just make sure you never call him the N word, because that's far worse"
Little girl: "Why is that worse? Why can't I feel bad when he calls me "Cracker"?
Father: "Oh honey, it's because your white and he's not. You'll understand some day why it's worse when he gets called names than when you do. It's all about history and this thing called hegemony. And there are different rules depending on what color you are, even today."
Little girl: "I don't understand, it still hurts when he calls me names...."[/QUOTE]
C'mon Thrust, don't play dumb. The meaning of a word is defined by its use. Just like bitch was a more offensive word 10 years ago than it is today, n***** is more offensive than cracker because of its use. There's no white equivalent, cracker does not carry the same weight of distaste. Cracker carries about the same weight as "darkie".
N***** is used, almost exclusively, by racists. They say it with utter disgust, with a deep hatred for blacks. No word for whites is used that way. If there were a word for whites equivalent, it would not be okay to say it.
VanillaGorilla
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Let me just say, without any racial component to it, that I love being white. Sure, I miss out on a lot of scholarships, and don't have a built in reason to claim why people don't like me. But aside from that, White is Alright!TM
[quote name='Koggit']C'mon Thrust, don't play dumb. The meaning of a word is defined by its use. Just like bitch was a more offensive word 10 years ago than it is today, n***** is more offensive than cracker because of its use. There's no white equivalent, cracker does not carry the same weight of distaste. Cracker carries about the same weight as "darkie".
N***** is used, almost exclusively, by racists. They say it with utter disgust, with a deep hatred for blacks. No word for whites is used that way. If there were a word for whites equivalent, it would not be okay to say it.[/QUOTE]
I'd quibble a little, considering how the n-word is being reclaimed, but that's all about context and another kettle of fish besides. Well said.
N***** is used, almost exclusively, by racists. They say it with utter disgust, with a deep hatred for blacks. No word for whites is used that way. If there were a word for whites equivalent, it would not be okay to say it.[/QUOTE]
I'd quibble a little, considering how the n-word is being reclaimed, but that's all about context and another kettle of fish besides. Well said.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='Koggit']C'mon Thrust, don't play dumb. The meaning of a word is defined by its use. Just like bitch was a more offensive word 10 years ago than it is today, n***** is more offensive than cracker because of its use. There's no white equivalent, cracker does not carry the same weight of distaste. Cracker carries about the same weight as "darkie".[/quote]
[quote name='SpazX']I'm with Koggit on this. You're playing dumb thrust, you know the difference.[/QUOTE]
If the difference can't be explained to a child, then it's a difference that is almost entirely taught. And a taught difference is not something I would defend or justify. But you guys can if you want.
Exactly WHY the N word is worse is a convoluted thing to explain or understand. Especially when you throw in the semantics of double standards such as it's ok for black people to say it and only becomes offensive when certain other races say it.
Actually I'd disagree with that. That word, today, is almost exclusively heard being used by blacks, and I'm pretty sure they don't mean it the way you describe.
..... But that leads into an entirely different angle on this discussion I'm not sure we want.
[quote name='SpazX']I'm with Koggit on this. You're playing dumb thrust, you know the difference.[/QUOTE]
If the difference can't be explained to a child, then it's a difference that is almost entirely taught. And a taught difference is not something I would defend or justify. But you guys can if you want.
Exactly WHY the N word is worse is a convoluted thing to explain or understand. Especially when you throw in the semantics of double standards such as it's ok for black people to say it and only becomes offensive when certain other races say it.
Actually I'd disagree with that. That word, today, is almost exclusively heard being used by blacks, and I'm pretty sure they don't mean it the way you describe.
..... But that leads into an entirely different angle on this discussion I'm not sure we want.
isn't it a good thing that the negative word association of monkey isn't an automatic?
Whether "monkey" derides blacks, russians or swamp monsters, why should monkey be an insult? asses and elephants aren't exactly the nobility of the animal kingdom and yet they get pretty good press.
To me, it comes down to: the people who think that "blacks are monkeys" in a derogatory, rascist sentiment are going to think that about the plushie regardless of the intent and regardless of whether it exists in the first place- it isn't going to "convert" a good person into a rascist. People who aren't rascists, who do not see blacks as monkeys, or any race as a monkey, shouldn't associate a monkey obama as being rascist.
Why? Because if insults are about the meaning, intent and effect they have, then normal, just-minded folks should win back the monkey, not as a symbol of rascism, but rather as a symbol of nothing. Let monkey plush dolls of aspiring presidential candidates be exactly what they should be independent of whatever we pour into them: cute.
Whether "monkey" derides blacks, russians or swamp monsters, why should monkey be an insult? asses and elephants aren't exactly the nobility of the animal kingdom and yet they get pretty good press.
To me, it comes down to: the people who think that "blacks are monkeys" in a derogatory, rascist sentiment are going to think that about the plushie regardless of the intent and regardless of whether it exists in the first place- it isn't going to "convert" a good person into a rascist. People who aren't rascists, who do not see blacks as monkeys, or any race as a monkey, shouldn't associate a monkey obama as being rascist.
Why? Because if insults are about the meaning, intent and effect they have, then normal, just-minded folks should win back the monkey, not as a symbol of rascism, but rather as a symbol of nothing. Let monkey plush dolls of aspiring presidential candidates be exactly what they should be independent of whatever we pour into them: cute.
[quote name='vherub']isn't it a good thing that the negative word association of monkey isn't an automatic?
Whether "monkey" derides blacks, russians or swamp monsters, why should monkey be an insult? asses and elephants aren't exactly the nobility of the animal kingdom and yet they get pretty good press.
To me, it comes down to: the people who think that "blacks are monkeys" in a derogatory, rascist sentiment are going to think that about the plushie regardless of the intent and regardless of whether it exists in the first place- it isn't going to "convert" a good person into a rascist. People who aren't rascists, who do not see blacks as monkeys, or any race as a monkey, shouldn't associate a monkey obama as being rascist.
Why? Because if insults are about the meaning, intent and effect they have, then normal, just-minded folks should win back the monkey, not as a symbol of rascism, but rather as a symbol of nothing. Let monkey plush dolls of aspiring presidential candidates be exactly what they should be independent of whatever we pour into them: cute.[/QUOTE]
It goes back to words being defined by use. "Monkey" on its own is not offensive, but if used by racists when referring to a group they hate, it would become racially offensive in society. This is why I'm not offended by this sock Obama -- up until this thread, I had never heard of monkey as any sort of racial slur.
I think Bush being parodied with chimps is a perfect example. 8 years ago, it was done based on his appearance. Today, it's done based on perceived intellect. 8 years ago it would be silly to be offended by it, but today, not so much... today, "That chimp in the White House" carries more disdain than it did 8 years ago, so it's more offensive.
[quote name='thrustbucket']If the difference can't be explained to a child, then it's a difference that is almost entirely taught. And a taught difference is not something I would defend or justify. But you guys can if you want.
Actually I'd disagree with that. That word, today, is almost exclusively heard being used by blacks, and I'm pretty sure they don't mean it the way you describe.
..... But that leads into an entirely different angle on this discussion I'm not sure we want.[/QUOTE]
I know you're not that dumb. That's all I have to say.
Whether "monkey" derides blacks, russians or swamp monsters, why should monkey be an insult? asses and elephants aren't exactly the nobility of the animal kingdom and yet they get pretty good press.
To me, it comes down to: the people who think that "blacks are monkeys" in a derogatory, rascist sentiment are going to think that about the plushie regardless of the intent and regardless of whether it exists in the first place- it isn't going to "convert" a good person into a rascist. People who aren't rascists, who do not see blacks as monkeys, or any race as a monkey, shouldn't associate a monkey obama as being rascist.
Why? Because if insults are about the meaning, intent and effect they have, then normal, just-minded folks should win back the monkey, not as a symbol of rascism, but rather as a symbol of nothing. Let monkey plush dolls of aspiring presidential candidates be exactly what they should be independent of whatever we pour into them: cute.[/QUOTE]
It goes back to words being defined by use. "Monkey" on its own is not offensive, but if used by racists when referring to a group they hate, it would become racially offensive in society. This is why I'm not offended by this sock Obama -- up until this thread, I had never heard of monkey as any sort of racial slur.
I think Bush being parodied with chimps is a perfect example. 8 years ago, it was done based on his appearance. Today, it's done based on perceived intellect. 8 years ago it would be silly to be offended by it, but today, not so much... today, "That chimp in the White House" carries more disdain than it did 8 years ago, so it's more offensive.
[quote name='thrustbucket']If the difference can't be explained to a child, then it's a difference that is almost entirely taught. And a taught difference is not something I would defend or justify. But you guys can if you want.
Actually I'd disagree with that. That word, today, is almost exclusively heard being used by blacks, and I'm pretty sure they don't mean it the way you describe.
..... But that leads into an entirely different angle on this discussion I'm not sure we want.[/QUOTE]
I know you're not that dumb. That's all I have to say.
[quote name='thrustbucket']If the difference can't be explained to a child, then it's a difference that is almost entirely taught. And a taught difference is not something I would defend or justify. But you guys can if you want.
Exactly WHY the N word is worse is a convoluted thing to explain or understand. Especially when you throw in the semantics of double standards such as it's ok for black people to say it and only becomes offensive when certain other races say it.[/quote]
What the hell is that? All meanings of all words are taught as all meanings of all words are entirely socially constructed. That means nothing.
$$$$er is a worse insult because it represents over 250 years of slavery and over 100 years of legally enforced oppression based on the idea that black people are naturally inferior to whites and less than human. Tell me, how does "cracker" compare? For how many years of oppression have whites been insulted with the word "cracker"? What abusive past does the word "cracker" call to mind?
It's not that convoluted to explain and unbelievably easy to understand unless you have no knowledge of American history.
There are plenty of black people who don't appreciate black people using it either, but it being more offensive when said by someone of another race (especially white) to a black person is pretty easy to understand. If there's any intellectually defensible reason for some black people to use it as they do (in many cases I'm sure it's only said because of others saying it), it is to redefine it on their own terms and effectively kill it as a racial slur. I'm not sure that will work, the better strategy is to just not use it at all and teach others not to as well.
I didn't need to say this, I know you understand it all already, so I don't know what exactly it is that you have a problem with.
Exactly WHY the N word is worse is a convoluted thing to explain or understand. Especially when you throw in the semantics of double standards such as it's ok for black people to say it and only becomes offensive when certain other races say it.[/quote]
What the hell is that? All meanings of all words are taught as all meanings of all words are entirely socially constructed. That means nothing.
$$$$er is a worse insult because it represents over 250 years of slavery and over 100 years of legally enforced oppression based on the idea that black people are naturally inferior to whites and less than human. Tell me, how does "cracker" compare? For how many years of oppression have whites been insulted with the word "cracker"? What abusive past does the word "cracker" call to mind?
It's not that convoluted to explain and unbelievably easy to understand unless you have no knowledge of American history.
There are plenty of black people who don't appreciate black people using it either, but it being more offensive when said by someone of another race (especially white) to a black person is pretty easy to understand. If there's any intellectually defensible reason for some black people to use it as they do (in many cases I'm sure it's only said because of others saying it), it is to redefine it on their own terms and effectively kill it as a racial slur. I'm not sure that will work, the better strategy is to just not use it at all and teach others not to as well.
I didn't need to say this, I know you understand it all already, so I don't know what exactly it is that you have a problem with.
[quote name='thrustbucket']when you throw in the semantics of double standards such as it's ok for black people to say it and only becomes offensive when certain other races say it.[/QUOTE]
Background info: I'm a meek, effeminate scenester.
Fact 1: When a football-loving frat guy says "shut up, bitch" to a girl it's usually offensive.
Fact 2: When I say "shut up, bitch" to a girl it's rarely offensive. Even if I use a malicious tone, it's usually taken as satire of a chauvinist.
Black-to-black, "get outta my way, n*gga" usually means something different than nonblack-to-black "get outta my way, n*gger". It's not a double-standard -- it's differentiating between different meanings of the same word (and I hesitate to even call them the same word).
I dated a jewish girl about a year ago, and I made jew jokes all the time. We'd go eat out: "You pay, use your jew gold", etc. By contrast, when my dad found out she was Jewish he said (not infront of her) "You're dating a Jew?" and I found it offensive because I know what the world meant to him, I know it was derogatory, it was a different word when he said it to me than when I said it to her.
Honestly, you can try to debate semantics all day, but I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. Fact of the matter is a word's meaning comes from its use -- the meaning of n*gger from a white man is much more offensive than the meaning of n*gga from a black man. It's not the spelling or sound of a word that's offensive, it's the meaning. It's no double standard to say one meaning is offensive and another is not.
Background info: I'm a meek, effeminate scenester.
Fact 1: When a football-loving frat guy says "shut up, bitch" to a girl it's usually offensive.
Fact 2: When I say "shut up, bitch" to a girl it's rarely offensive. Even if I use a malicious tone, it's usually taken as satire of a chauvinist.
Black-to-black, "get outta my way, n*gga" usually means something different than nonblack-to-black "get outta my way, n*gger". It's not a double-standard -- it's differentiating between different meanings of the same word (and I hesitate to even call them the same word).
I dated a jewish girl about a year ago, and I made jew jokes all the time. We'd go eat out: "You pay, use your jew gold", etc. By contrast, when my dad found out she was Jewish he said (not infront of her) "You're dating a Jew?" and I found it offensive because I know what the world meant to him, I know it was derogatory, it was a different word when he said it to me than when I said it to her.
Honestly, you can try to debate semantics all day, but I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. Fact of the matter is a word's meaning comes from its use -- the meaning of n*gger from a white man is much more offensive than the meaning of n*gga from a black man. It's not the spelling or sound of a word that's offensive, it's the meaning. It's no double standard to say one meaning is offensive and another is not.
thrustbucket
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Spazx, Koggit,
I understand what you are both saying. I am saying I acknowledge all of what you are saying as the WAY THINGS ARE. But, I'm not ok with the way things are. So from an idealistic perspective, I argue it.
And because of that, if I have kids, I will teach them that it is simply this: Racism is racism is racism. And Racisim always = bad. It doesn't have variations of bad depending on which word, who says it, and at who. There is no degrees of bad. Bad is bad and racism is bad.
Now if you guys want to teach your kids the semantics of racism as you've just described, or leave it to society to do so, that's your prerogative. And it may be naive of me to try and raise a generation that just simply sees racism and slurs as bad across the board, period. But if I stand by my own principles, I must.
I understand what you are both saying. I am saying I acknowledge all of what you are saying as the WAY THINGS ARE. But, I'm not ok with the way things are. So from an idealistic perspective, I argue it.
And because of that, if I have kids, I will teach them that it is simply this: Racism is racism is racism. And Racisim always = bad. It doesn't have variations of bad depending on which word, who says it, and at who. There is no degrees of bad. Bad is bad and racism is bad.
Now if you guys want to teach your kids the semantics of racism as you've just described, or leave it to society to do so, that's your prerogative. And it may be naive of me to try and raise a generation that just simply sees racism and slurs as bad across the board, period. But if I stand by my own principles, I must.
thrustbucket
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Spazx, Koggit,
I understand what you are both saying. I am saying I acknowledge all of what you are saying as the WAY THINGS ARE. But, I'm not ok with the way things are. So from an idealistic perspective, I argue it.
And because of that, if I have kids, I will teach them that it is simply this: Racism is racism is racism. And Racisim always = bad. It doesn't matter which flavor, by who, at who. There is no degrees. Bad is bad and racism is bad.
Now if you guys want to teach your kids the semantics of racism as you've just described, or leave it to society to do so, that's your prerogative. And it may be naive of me to try and raise a generation that just simply sees racism and slurs as bad across the board, period. But if I stand by my own principles, I must.[/quote]
Nobody thinks racism is good in any situation. That doesn't make the words "cracker" and "$$$$er" equally offensive or harmful.
If all races had the same power and the same history, then there wouldn't be a difference, but that's not the case.
I understand what you are both saying. I am saying I acknowledge all of what you are saying as the WAY THINGS ARE. But, I'm not ok with the way things are. So from an idealistic perspective, I argue it.
And because of that, if I have kids, I will teach them that it is simply this: Racism is racism is racism. And Racisim always = bad. It doesn't matter which flavor, by who, at who. There is no degrees. Bad is bad and racism is bad.
Now if you guys want to teach your kids the semantics of racism as you've just described, or leave it to society to do so, that's your prerogative. And it may be naive of me to try and raise a generation that just simply sees racism and slurs as bad across the board, period. But if I stand by my own principles, I must.[/quote]
Nobody thinks racism is good in any situation. That doesn't make the words "cracker" and "$$$$er" equally offensive or harmful.
If all races had the same power and the same history, then there wouldn't be a difference, but that's not the case.
[quote name='thrustbucket']Spazx, Koggit,
I understand what you are both saying. I am saying I acknowledge all of what you are saying as the WAY THINGS ARE. But, I'm not ok with the way things are. So from an idealistic perspective, I argue it.
And because of that, if I have kids, I will teach them that it is simply this: Racism is racism is racism. And Racisim always = bad. It doesn't have variations of bad depending on which word, who says it, and at who. There is no degrees of bad. Bad is bad and racism is bad.
Now if you guys want to teach your kids the semantics of racism as you've just described, or leave it to society to do so, that's your prerogative. And it may be naive of me to try and raise a generation that just simply sees racism and slurs as bad across the board, period. But if I stand by my own principles, I must.[/QUOTE]
Nobody said racism toward whites is okay. As I said, if there were a white equivalent of $$$$er, it'd be equally offensive. Cracker is not as racist as $$$$er. $$$$er is used as a racial generalization, by racists who deplore those they refer to as "$$$$ers". Cracker is used by some non-whites, usually when they're upset with a particular person. It's not a racial generalization, it's a derogatory name for a single person or a small group. $$$$er is a racial generalization.
Society will teach your kids "the semantics of racism" all the same. Every single word is defined by use. I'm not going to have this discussion with my kids: they'll understand it by being part of society.
I understand what you are both saying. I am saying I acknowledge all of what you are saying as the WAY THINGS ARE. But, I'm not ok with the way things are. So from an idealistic perspective, I argue it.
And because of that, if I have kids, I will teach them that it is simply this: Racism is racism is racism. And Racisim always = bad. It doesn't have variations of bad depending on which word, who says it, and at who. There is no degrees of bad. Bad is bad and racism is bad.
Now if you guys want to teach your kids the semantics of racism as you've just described, or leave it to society to do so, that's your prerogative. And it may be naive of me to try and raise a generation that just simply sees racism and slurs as bad across the board, period. But if I stand by my own principles, I must.[/QUOTE]
Nobody said racism toward whites is okay. As I said, if there were a white equivalent of $$$$er, it'd be equally offensive. Cracker is not as racist as $$$$er. $$$$er is used as a racial generalization, by racists who deplore those they refer to as "$$$$ers". Cracker is used by some non-whites, usually when they're upset with a particular person. It's not a racial generalization, it's a derogatory name for a single person or a small group. $$$$er is a racial generalization.
Society will teach your kids "the semantics of racism" all the same. Every single word is defined by use. I'm not going to have this discussion with my kids: they'll understand it by being part of society.
mykevermin
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An impressive apology in an era where public apologies take the form "I'm sorry if I offended someone," which distances the person's responsibility from the comment/deed.
thrustbucket
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On my way to work today I heard an interview with the guy that owns this company. Thought I'd share a couple things he said.
He said he already had a deal with a big comedy toy manufacturer, who also never thought it was racist. But they backed out after the media backlash.
He still claims he never intended it to be racist, and it never crossed his mind, because ->
He says they have a whole line of sock puppet monkey's of notable personalities such as McCain and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that were planned. The Obama one was singled out and made a big deal of.
Anyway, the guy sounded sincere. It's possible this was not a case of racism, but more like cluelessness. But I'm not going to defend him.
He said he already had a deal with a big comedy toy manufacturer, who also never thought it was racist. But they backed out after the media backlash.
He still claims he never intended it to be racist, and it never crossed his mind, because ->
He says they have a whole line of sock puppet monkey's of notable personalities such as McCain and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that were planned. The Obama one was singled out and made a big deal of.
Anyway, the guy sounded sincere. It's possible this was not a case of racism, but more like cluelessness. But I'm not going to defend him.
bread's done