Now Who's a Socialist?

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mykevermin

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http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE49U3Y020081031

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. Republican presidential candidate John McCain said on Friday the struggling U.S. auto industry could not be allowed to fail, and if elected president he would do "whatever I think needs to be done" to save it.

But interviewed on U.S. television network ABC's Good Morning America show, he remained cautious about proposals for a government bailout of the industry.

He said the focus should be on disbursing $25 billion in low-interest loans already authorized by the U.S. Congress to help the auto industry retool to produce more fuel-efficient vehicles.

"We have delayed getting them that money," McCain said of the industry that saw September sales drop 27 percent from a year earlier.

He spoke after the Bush administration on Thursday appeared to rebuff pleas by six state governors and a group of chief executives for more direct government intervention to shore up the industry.

"I would do whatever I think needs to be done to help out the auto industry. We need to keep this industry alive," said McCain, who is trailing Democratic challenger Barack Obama in the polls ahead of Tuesday's election.
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Redistribution of wealth indeed.
 
A republican president has presided over the largest expansion of government in history and Mccain was with him all the way...yet they still have the nerve to call Obama socialist. Hilarious.
 
yes lets bailout an industry that banked everything on trucks and suv's. Everyone knows that the future is in high mpg vehicles... now we are there to help them because they were to busy building tanks for soccer moms to drive.. Another case of "get to big and the gov't won't let the market destroy you"
 
He's also a believer in the progressive income tax. Your rationales for hating him so much are fading.


And I can think of only one really good reason to prop up the auto industry: national security. If we really do get into a legitimate conflict, we'll need someone to build tanks instead of having to import them from Korea and China. I don't agree with the welfare plan, though.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']And I can think of only one really good reason to prop up the auto industry: national security.[/quote]

No.

GM, Ford and Chrysler has been detrimental to national security since the 1970s.

By producing low mpg cars and trucks, they've allowed our enemies to acquire vast reserves of capital.

They have failed the consumer, their employees and their country.

GM, Ford and Chrysler should be allowed to go belly up.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']And I can think of only one really good reason to prop up the auto industry: national security. If we really do get into a legitimate conflict, we'll need someone to build tanks instead of having to import them from Korea and China.[/quote]

GDLS not doing it for you?
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']GDLS not doing it for you?[/QUOTE]

Not if we were to have to enter a global conflict. Can you imagine the heavy industrial capacity we would need if there were another world war? Shit, we should just nationalize the car companies and start building assault vehicles now.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']No.

GM, Ford and Chrysler has been detrimental to national security since the 1970s.

By producing low mpg cars and trucks, they've allowed our enemies to acquire vast reserves of capital.

They have failed the consumer, their employees and their country.

GM, Ford and Chrysler should be allowed to go belly up.[/quote]

Think of the insane amount of jobs that would be lost. It would not just be GM, and Ford, and Chrysler. There are suppliers and many other companies around the world that work with those three. To say that they should just go belly up is asking potentially 150k people to lose their jobs.
 
So we should prop up failing businesses just to keep people jobs? If it's about the little people, we should just disperse the $25 billion to every laid off auto-worker and then give then two free years at any community college. Problem solved.
 
[quote name='FloodsAreUponUS']Think of the insane amount of jobs that would be lost. It would not just be GM, and Ford, and Chrysler. There are suppliers and many other companies around the world that work with those three. To say that they should just go belly up is asking potentially 150k people to lose their jobs.[/QUOTE]

http://www.bls.gov/bdm/

In just the fourth quarter of 2007, and in only the private sector, 7.65 million jobs were created and 7.33 million were lost. Not to be unsympathetic to those 150,000 who might lose jobs, but this is not nearly as huge as you think. Our economy creates and destroys tens of millions of jobs each year. One of the keys is letting failed businesses fail so that those that are successful aren't penalized to prop up those who aren't successful. Sadly, the huge bailout bill rammed through Congress by both parties upsets this system to the tune of trillions of dollars.
 
[quote name='FloodsAreUponUS']Think of the insane amount of jobs that would be lost. It would not just be GM, and Ford, and Chrysler. There are suppliers and many other companies around the world that work with those three. To say that they should just go belly up is asking potentially 150k people to lose their jobs.[/quote]

Eh, that's how capitalism works. This is why McCain is the biggest socialist (and hypocrite) in this race. But that's not even the tip of the iceberg of why I am against him.
 
People are still going to buy cars. If the Big Three fall, somebody will pick up the slack.

It COULD be foreign firms, but tariffs could easily allow small domestic car makers be competitive.

If the car makers did something truly innovative such as making cars that run on electric, natural gas, gas hybrid electric, used vegetable oil, green oil, hydrogen hybrid electric or something else, they may not even need tariffs.

With the Big Three under Gubmint's protection, smaller and nimbler firms that can truly satisfy customer demand are paralyzed.
 
I agree with your statement and thats the problem.
Those companies felt very good with their suv, trucks and till now there was no real urgency in promoting fuel efficent vehicles. Gasprices were somewhat low and the taxes on the gas are even lower compared to europe where taxation on fuel is much more.
In that sense these automobile manifactures find them now in a very bad position where they have to catch up with the current trend and to compete with customers that already went to japanese manifactures.
And yes, it is true that if these big three go bankrupt, thousands will lose their jobs.
In the end the goverment will end up to substudice these manifactures. I believe that their ceo's should be held accountable for making these bad deccision. I wonder what the shareholder have to say on this.

Another thing what aggrevates me is the notion that Obama is a suppsedly socialist. What a claim. The majority of voter does not even now what socialismen is.
To distribute taxes is a normal process and i can not see how McCain would even pay for his programs if he does not raise taxes somewhere. Unless he cuts everwhere.

Perhaps McCain as a president would get rid of taxes as a whole and stop the redistribution of taxpayers money and stop the socialismen approach for good. Or does he know what he is talking about?


[quote name='FloodsAreUponUS']Think of the insane amount of jobs that would be lost. It would not just be GM, and Ford, and Chrysler. There are suppliers and many other companies around the world that work with those three. To say that they should just go belly up is asking potentially 150k people to lose their jobs.[/quote]
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Not if we were to have to enter a global conflict. Can you imagine the heavy industrial capacity we would need if there were another world war?[/quote]
Its hard to imagine a real world war these days without one of the nuclear powers using their capacity, in which case the answer to that is zero.
 
MAD might assure that no one uses nuclear weapons though. If everyone has them, no one will be crazy enough to use them. That's just the optimist in me though.
 
But if one side is losing bad, and they are backed into a corner through conventional warfare, there is nothing to lose. At that point it doesnt matter if everyone is destroyed.
 
The dirty little secret about nuclear war: It won't stop the people at the top.

Both sides have doomsday vaults that can weather any storm for thousands of their "brightest" people for several generations.

It's just like the Fallout series.

If somebody wants to argue, here are the basics:

Geothermal heat can boil water if concentrated.

Boiled water is steam that can turn turbines to power lights.

Boiling water removes radioactive particles.

Let's see: you have water and light. What else is needed to grow food?

Ah, yes: Dirt.

Pile up a bunch of fertilizer and topsoil in a closed underground complex.

Have X number of men and Y number of women for breeding.

The nukes can start flying at any moment and, 800 years later, very intelligent people with very thick sunglasses can emerge to a pristine planet free of 99.9% of pesky people like us.

If we could just get those damn Russians on board or build up China's nuclear program ...
 
I havent really followed the state of self sustaining sub-systems (biodome?), but I was under the impression that they were not sustainable in practice long term.

Edit: If both sides have the capacity to survive a nuclear holocaust...then the action still doesnt lead to a victory.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']People are still going to buy cars. If the Big Three fall, somebody will pick up the slack.

It COULD be foreign firms, but tariffs could easily allow small domestic car makers be competitive.[/quote]

No need for tariffs; they are counterproductive in any case. When Toyota builds cars in Tennessee and gives people their jobs to do so, I don't see why people are so incensed.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']With the Big Three under Gubmint's protection, smaller and nimbler firms that can truly satisfy customer demand are paralyzed.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Where are the Southwests and JetBlues of the auto industry? I guess we have stuff like Tesla, but it's hard for startups with different ways of thinking and innovative business models to succeed when the government is giving $25+ billion to their competitors...
 
[quote name='depascal22']MAD might assure that no one uses nuclear weapons though. If everyone has them, no one will be crazy enough to use them. That's just the optimist in me though.[/QUOTE]

It's optimistic that everyone will be rational in their use of such weapons, especially if they get into the hands of the ultimate irrational actors, terrorists.
 
I thought protective trade tariffs were more about imported goods, goods that had to cross borders, and not so much the Toyota plant in Tennessee. Those jobs are certainly here in this country, but at the same time, there are many jobs that are really going beyond the borders.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']The dirty little secret about nuclear war: It won't stop the people at the top.

Both sides have doomsday vaults that can weather any storm for thousands of their "brightest" people for several generations.

It's just like the Fallout series.

If somebody wants to argue, here are the basics:

Geothermal heat can boil water if concentrated.

Boiled water is steam that can turn turbines to power lights.

Boiling water removes radioactive particles.

Let's see: you have water and light. What else is needed to grow food?

Ah, yes: Dirt.

Pile up a bunch of fertilizer and topsoil in a closed underground complex.

Have X number of men and Y number of women for breeding.

The nukes can start flying at any moment and, 800 years later, very intelligent people with very thick sunglasses can emerge to a pristine planet free of 99.9% of pesky people like us.

[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. Maybe it's vain to believe that something like that hasn't already happened.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I thought protective trade tariffs were more about imported goods, goods that had to cross borders, and not so much the Toyota plant in Tennessee. Those jobs are certainly here in this country, but at the same time, there are many jobs that are really going beyond the borders.[/QUOTE]

Yes, tariffs are about goods traded internationally. Here's a dirty little secret: U.S. exports have grown substantially and are an engine of growth for our country. Another dirty little secret: NAFTA has been beneficial for Canada, Mexico, AND the United States in terms of economic prosperity. Every study shows this. The only reason people are opposed to free trade agreements (real free trade agreements, not one-way stuff) is that they are scared that some people will lose jobs -- which they will. However, those jobs are replaced with even more jobs in other industries. The problem is the people who have lost jobs are sometimes in a tough place because they aren't trained for the new jobs. I think we should spend more time thinking about that conundrum than figuring out how to slow down our own prosperity, as well as other countries' prosperity, by stopping trade.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']It's optimistic that everyone will be rational in their use of such weapons, especially if they get into the hands of the ultimate irrational actors, terrorists.[/quote]

But that won't be a world war. If we get nuked by terrorists, who do we nuke in retaliation. We could always pick a name out of the hat like we did with Iraq but I don't think we'll make many allies by doing so.

EDIT -- I agree with elprincipe 100% on the re-training of workers. Instead of shutting down trade or propping up inefficient corporations, give the money to the workers so they can go back to school and get competitive in the job market.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I havent really followed the state of self sustaining sub-systems (biodome?), but I was under the impression that they were not sustainable in practice long term.

Edit: If both sides have the capacity to survive a nuclear holocaust...then the action still doesnt lead to a victory.[/quote]

http://www.zetatalk.com/shelter/slideloc/figurea.gif

Physically speaking, biodomes can be nearly self-sustaining. From our point of view, matter can't be created or destroyed. It can only change form.

Psychologically speaking, people living in an underground vault would be very odd if depression didn't get to them. People would have to be dedicated military they still might crack.

...

If the goal of a nuclear holocaust was to defeat the other side, you are correct.

If the goal of a nuclear holocaust was to reduce the numbers of people running around topside, you are incorrect.

The pesky things about Communists are that they lie constantly and some of them actually believe in Marxism.

If every Communist was a power hungry sociopathic gangster like Stalin, the US could have come to an agreement about divvying up the world.

The other major snag about nuclear war is that 800 year cooldown period. Once we've obtained immortality or something damn close to it, that snag won't matter.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Yes, tariffs are about goods traded internationally. Here's a dirty little secret: U.S. exports have grown substantially and are an engine of growth for our country. Another dirty little secret: NAFTA has been beneficial for Canada, Mexico, AND the United States in terms of economic prosperity. Every study shows this. The only reason people are opposed to free trade agreements (real free trade agreements, not one-way stuff) is that they are scared that some people will lose jobs -- which they will. However, those jobs are replaced with even more jobs in other industries. The problem is the people who have lost jobs are sometimes in a tough place because they aren't trained for the new jobs. I think we should spend more time thinking about that conundrum than figuring out how to slow down our own prosperity, as well as other countries' prosperity, by stopping trade.[/quote]

The problem is that "free" trade with the USA has never happened. Even in the case of NAFTA, it has put American workers at a disadvantage. While goods may indeed cross border freely, there are minimal protections for workers rights, thus labor is cheaper in say Mexico. Even when you consider our neighbors to the north, they have the built in advantage that those workers dont need to be covered by corporate health insurance as they have government funded health care. Again this an expense of hiring an American worker, putting them at a disadvantage.

I'm for free trade, but fully free. For example, Korea exports like 70K cars to the USA. GM should be able to export as many cars to Korea as Koreans want to buy them, but we are limited by their government. So if they want to put limits on imports, then I say tax the hell out of their exports. Of course, if they want to be like Toyota does with their Avalons and build them here, no tarrifs on those.

Back on the topic of "socialism", fundamentally, there is no difference b/w McCain and Obama. They both tax ppl who make more at a higher rate. They both propose giving refundable tax credits to those who pay no federal income tax. And they both believe in 'Privatizing profits and socialising losses" as evidenced by their support for the "Wall Street Bailout" bill. This proves that neither really believes in the "free" market as in a true market, the businesses would be allowed to fail when they screw-up. Fear of bankrupcy/failure is the one thing that is supposed to restrain companies in the market system. McCain and Obama are just fine with removing that penalty.

At least Obama is being intellectually honest when he states that govenrment should have a role in the market. McCain only poses as a free-marketeer. And that McCain allows his campaign to base their argument that Obama is all these things and imply that McCain is not, just shows that he is a fraud. I was so supportive of McCain in 2000, but this McCain has completely sold out just to try and get elected. I hope, even for his legacy's sake that he fails. Then he can finally stop courting the "base" that he so often was all 'mavricky' against. :)
 
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[quote name='elprincipe']Yes, tariffs are about goods traded internationally. Here's a dirty little secret: U.S. exports have grown substantially and are an engine of growth for our country. Another dirty little secret: NAFTA has been beneficial for Canada, Mexico, AND the United States in terms of economic prosperity. Every study shows this. The only reason people are opposed to free trade agreements (real free trade agreements, not one-way stuff) is that they are scared that some people will lose jobs -- which they will. However, those jobs are replaced with even more jobs in other industries. The problem is the people who have lost jobs are sometimes in a tough place because they aren't trained for the new jobs. I think we should spend more time thinking about that conundrum than figuring out how to slow down our own prosperity, as well as other countries' prosperity, by stopping trade.[/quote]

That would work if people practiced fair trade. But when Starbucks pays pennies to Ethiopian farmers for coffee beans only to turn it around to sell cups of coffee for five bucks a pop, we're all going to be in a mess of trouble if the unfair labor practices of third world countries continue to be imported into the United States. The gap between the top and bottom continues to maw even wider, and ultimately this will erode any remaining vestiges of prosperity among the low and middle classes.
 
Oh, god, that is such nonsense. First, consider the exchange rate and the cost of living in those countries relative to the United States. Wages here don't equal wages there, nor should they. That they accept these wages in dollar terms of their own volition shows you how much more it is than they could get from their decrepit state-run hellhole. As if America has anything to do with assholes like Chavez, Mugabe, or Castro. I think Castro's brother just this year allowed his people to buy computers. If any of these countries construct a tax and regulatory environment that is attractive to foreign businesses, eventually so many companies will be competing for the labor there that wages will get bid up to the people's continuous advantage. Just like India, just like Hong Kong, just like every country that went from shitsville to capitalism.

What's about to screw us over and send us into hyperinflationary overdrive is the complete u-turn we've made towards socialism over the past seventy years. We have a non-market determined inflationary money, our politicians abandoned the discipline of gold. We have a Manchausen syndrome central bank that centrally price fixes interest rates and now apparently can buy any private company willy nilly. And an entitlement happy populace that is so damned scared of having their checks taken away that they will continue to vote for idiots on both sides that think wealth can be created with a printing press.

U.S. exports have grown substantially and are an engine of growth for our country
Click to expand...

Too bad we've been running 60 billion a month trade deficits with the rest of the world for some time now. That means they provide us with 60 billion more in goods and services than we provide them. Our manufacturing base is in tatters, we borrow the rest of the world's savings not to produce and pay them back with products, but to consume things we import from them. Instead of embracing the recession and reallocation of resources towards manufacturing to purge these trade imbalances (because the weak dollar is indeed good for exports), the government is stepping in to prop up asset prices with inflation. They're not letting it happen. This is a complete repeat of the Great Depression, except this time prices won't be falling.
 
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[quote name='FitzRoy']Oh, god, that is such nonsense. First, consider the exchange rate and the cost of living in those countries relative to the United States. Wages here don't equal wages there, nor should they. That they accept these wages in dollar terms of their own volition shows you how much more it is than they could get from their decrepit state-run hellhole. As if America has anything to do with assholes like Chavez, Mugabe, or Castro. I think Castro's brother just this year allowed his people to buy computers. If any of these countries construct a tax and regulatory environment that is attractive to foreign businesses, eventually so many companies will be competing for the labor there that wages will get bid up to the people's continuous advantage. Just like India, just like Hong Kong, just like every country that went from shitsville to capitalism.[/quote]

You have set the bar so low that failure is almost impossible. Look - American executive fatcats are not exploiting the people of third-world countries as badly as a brutal dictator - success! While you are factually correct, your lack of compassion for (or ignorance of) the plight of the third-world poor would be startling if it wasn't so commonplace.
 
We are definitely raising the standard of living for some of these countries. Take customer service that is often handled by companies in India. We have now raised their standard of living so much, that the Indians are now re-exporting those jobs to China!
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']We are definitely raising the standard of living for some of these countries. Take customer service that is often handled by companies in India. We have now raised their standard of living so much, that the Indians are now re-exporting those jobs to China![/quote]

Great point. I only wonder if there's a bunch of unemployed Indians sitting around yelling "They took our jobs!"
 
[quote name='FitzRoy']I think Castro's brother just this year allowed his people to buy computers.[/quote]Oh yes, Castro's brother. Castro's brother CASTRO!
 
Our manufacturing base is in tatters because of two things. Unions made the worker more powerful than their managers and our factories produce over-priced crap.
 
[quote name='vherub']I've played Bioshock. Free market systems simply do not work.[/QUOTE]

To be more accurate:

As long as assholes exist, and as long as greed exists, no system can be said to work.
 
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