Obama Administration backs 1.92 Million RIAA File Sharing Verdict

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The Obama administration told a federal judge Friday the $1.92 million jury verdict against a Minnesota woman for sharing 24 music tracks on Kazaa was constitutionally sound, despite defense claims it was unconstitutionally excessive.
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“The current damages range provides compensation for copyright owners because, inter alia, there exists situations in which actual damages are hard to quantify,” the government wrote. “Furthermore, in establishing that range, Congress took into account the need to deter the millions of users of new media from infringing copyrights (.pdf) in an environment where many violators believe that they will go unnoticed.”

www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/08/feds-support-192-million-file-sharing-verdict/

Not that this is a big deal, I thought of it more as a way of easily demonstrating that when you get past the rhetoric, both political parties are simply corporate lackeys.

The settlement goes past draconian and into the realm of the absurd. A 1.79 million verdict against a single mother who naively shared a few tunes online. I understand the point is to bring down financial ruin on anyone who gets caught sharing files online, I just think it's funny (and sad) how obviously the government is tipping it's hand.
 
Yeah, I'll add that to the list of things Obama's administration had done/said that I don't like.

I have no problem with punishing file sharers as it is clearly copyright violations and I hate the losers online who try to justify their illegal downloading and file sharing.

But that kind of penalty should fall into Cruel and Unusual Punishment IMO given how disproportionate the fine is to the offense and to the persons ability to pay it.
 
Only philosophically related: 24 hours after it was leaked, over 100,000 full copies of X-Men Origins: Wolverine were floating around the internet.

How much of a fine should the person pay? (if they were caught/convicted, of course - hence the hypothetical part of this.)
 
I can sue you for however much i want, and possibly even be awarded it, doesn't mean i'll ever get half of it. They're just trying to make an example of this woman and that's a shame.
 
Is it wrong to make examples out of individuals who break the law?

Should those who commit illegal activities be given special protections?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Is it wrong to make examples out of individuals who break the law?[/QUOTE]

If it doesn't work, sure.

Do you think a $2m fine will make a significant enough majority of people rethink the piracy they engage in?

Take a look around CAG and ask yourself that question. Start with the "OTT."

;)
 
That's the million dollar question.

Point is - is it worth it, or is it "justice," to place an unpayable fine on a single individual if we're uncertain it will be precisely that?

Obviously it's a symbolic ruling, as nobody's ever going to get $2m from an average joe/jane. But if it does nothing to halt piracy, what is done for the individual or greater good?
 
If it stops one person from illegally downloading one song, then it's done something.

Now, I'm not saying that this ruling is sensible or fair, but unless someone can come up with a better idea to stop people from illegally downloading, I'm not sure I can complain too much about settlements against people who break the law, know they're breaking the law, and do so with no respect toward those they're stealing from (and yes, it's stealing).

[quote name='mykevermin']Obviously it's a symbolic ruling[/QUOTE]

Kinda like giving a 71 year old man a 150 year prison sentence?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']

Kinda like giving a 71 year old man a 150 year prison sentence?[/QUOTE]

Stealing billions of dollars from innocent people =/= Stealing $24 worth of songs (if we go by iTunes pricing)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If it stops one person from illegally downloading one song, then it's done something.[/QUOTE]

yes, well...not "something," then - but reduced crime commensurate with cost. If I misuse language this evening, I blame Miller High Life. ;)
 
Wasn't saying the crimes were similar - merely stating that the punishments were both outrageously stupid - neither one is going to "pay up".
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Wasn't saying the crimes were similar - merely stating that the punishments were both outrageously stupid - neither one is going to "pay up".[/QUOTE]

Well it was the best we could do with Madoff under current laws. We couldn't death penalty him for a white collar crime.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If it stops one person from illegally downloading one song, then it's done something.

Now, I'm not saying that this ruling is sensible or fair, but unless someone can come up with a better idea to stop people from illegally downloading, I'm not sure I can complain too much about settlements against people who break the law, know they're breaking the law, and do so with no respect toward those they're stealing from (and yes, it's stealing).



Kinda like giving a 71 year old man a 150 year prison sentence?[/QUOTE]

You can't honestly be using Madoff's crime and punishment as an analogy for this case. Ruining the financial health for 1000s of people, ripping off charities for his own financial gain versus sharing 24 songs over the internet that you don't own the copyright for? I would hope that one of those crimes carried a much higher punishment. Some of Madoff's victims are reduced to eating dogfood as a result of his theft, I don't see Britney Spears resorting to eating dogfood (well, at least her financial situation is not forcing her to)

You know, I really hate thieves. Why don't we just go Saudi Arabia and cut off the hands of thieves, because it stops one person from stealing, then it's done something. AMIRITE

Also sharing songs you don't own the copyright to is not stealing, it's copyright infringement. Now go copy that on the blackboard 50 times and then you can come back to the discussion.
 
*sigh*

haven't we've been down this road already?

do I really have to point you to the criminal definition of "theft" again?

I guess so. if you want to be smarmy, be correct. go look up theft.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']If it stops one person from illegally downloading one song, then it's done something.[/QUOTE]

Technically, killing her would also stop one person from illegally downloading music, but we don't do that either, do we?

I'm curious who exactly in the OA stated that opinion, but seriously, $1.9 Million for essentially $24 worth of music. I think the Prosecution should have to prove that those $24 worth of songs reached the ~100,000 people the award merits.

It's really out of control. But, aside from the outrageous amount of the award, how do most of these cases usually result in regards to payment from the defendant? Do they just file bankruptcy?

~HotShotX
 
I cringe when I see folks misinterpret everything about "Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants" to show how litigation in this country is "out of control." This is due to the facts of Liebeck, as well as the fallout of that trial.

Compare that to what the RIAA has succeeded in doing here, and you can't help but see a system where those screaming for "tort reform" should understand that it's not the corporation who needs protection from overly-litigious individuals, but the other way around.

Either way, go read about Liebeck for a few minutes. Bet you a dollar you learn something about that case you didn't know before.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']*sigh*

haven't we've been down this road already?

do I really have to point you to the criminal definition of "theft" again?

I guess so. if you want to be smarmy, be correct. go look up theft.[/QUOTE]

Are you talking to me or UncleBob?

Also, tort reform needs to occur on both sides. I cite Roy Pearson's million dollar pants case as an example.
 
I didn't say it was "theft", I said it was stealing.

From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:
steal (stēl):
1. To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

Now, we can argue over the technicalities of the act (she never took possession of physical property, she distributed the property without permission, etc...), but we're not really going to achieve anything. No matter how you want to phrase it, the criminal in this case took property that did not belong to her and distributed, for free, to the millions of individuals on the internet (each of which may or may not have chosen to download it).

As per Madoff, he's guilty and should spend the rest of his life in confinement. My point is, he's just as likely to serve a 150 year sentence as this criminal is to pay up $1.92 Million. Should we sit around and decry one sentence because it's more "symbolic" than effective, but cheer on another that is the exact same thing?
 
most legal definitions of theft are derivative of that same idea, Bob.

if you want to argue that online piracy is not theft, then camoor, you will want to argue over the meaning of the word "take," not "theft."
 
I totally agree with HotShotX. Every single dollar of that 1.9 million needs to be proven is owed to someone by this lady's actions.

Just inflating a fine to make an example of someone is pretty stupid, and wrong.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']As per Madoff, he's guilty and should spend the rest of his life in confinement. My point is, he's just as likely to serve a 150 year sentence as this criminal is to pay up $1.92 Million. Should we sit around and decry one sentence because it's more "symbolic" than effective, but cheer on another that is the exact same thing?[/QUOTE]

I don't think Madoff's sentence is symbolic at all. If he was caught performing the same crimes as a 40-year old man, I would want him to get the same sentence. Besides you never know what a clever lawyer can knock down on appeal, better to throw everything in the book at Madoff so it's clear that unless he hits an appeal home-run he is never seeing the light of day again.

Now as to theft vs copyright infringement, one of these actions involves material objects and an involuntary transfer of possession. The other involves a legal concept that was originally designed to be a very tightly, very carefully time-constrained goverment-regulated monopoly in the interests of promoting creativity and innovation.

To make it simple for the kids in the back of the class, they are completely different violations of law (quite obviously, copyright infringement law for mechanically recorded music has only been around for about a century). If a thief steals a car then the original owner no longer has a car. If a downloader copies a tune without consent from the copyright owner, the tune still exists on the computer he copied it from (now it's true that as a result of this download P Diddy may not be able to buy that island for his kid - but that's where copyright infringement law comes in.

Pretty good blog about the current state of affairs - www.techdirt.com/articles/20090501/0113064710.shtml
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Is it wrong to make examples out of individuals who break the law?

Should those who commit illegal activities be given special protections?[/QUOTE]
When it won't make a single damn difference, yes it is. In fact, i'd wager that things like this just inflame the hatred against these organizations.

edit- Come to think of it, this woman might as well continue to download music. Think about it, 2 million or 20 million, she can't ever pay it anyway, what difference does it make.
 
You keep saying "theft". I never used that word.

...and 150 year sentence for a 40 year old man would be just as symbolic. Unless he's planning to live to be 191.
 
Wow. What a ridiculous ruling. They'd be better served by punishing her with having to do PSAs about how copyright infringement is wrong along with a reasonable fine (1 thousand?), or have her go talk to kids in school about it.

All this does is makes them look like douchebags. It also shows how much of a lackey the government is (regardless of who is in power) for these corporations.
 
Just want to point out that Bill Clinton was the president that signed the Digital Millenium Copyright Act into law, which is the sole law that allows verdicts like this.
 
Really though, anyone who still uses P2P software to download or share illegal or copyrighted materials is an idiot who deserves to have the book thrown at them.
 
[quote name='camoor']To make it simple for the kids in the back of the class, they are completely different violations of law (quite obviously, copyright infringement law for mechanically recorded music has only been around for about a century). If a thief steals a car then the original owner no longer has a car. If a downloader copies a tune without consent from the copyright owner, the tune still exists on the computer he copied it from (now it's true that as a result of this download P Diddy may not be able to buy that island for his kid - but that's where copyright infringement law comes in.

Pretty good blog about the current state of affairs - www.techdirt.com/articles/20090501/0113064710.shtml[/QUOTE]

...how...profound. I've never thought of the "original still has a copy" angle. :roll:

from a legal standpoint, the definition of theft is fully satisfied with the taking of property without consent. it does not specify that the owner does not retain possession of any, all, or no part of what was taken. To prevent this mind-numbing semantics discussion, this is why in my earlier post I said that, if you want to debate the definition of a word, you would want to debate the definition of "take." Theft is satisfied without regard to the result of the owner by virtue of the precise wording of the definition.

Madoff's sentence is more than symbolic. With 150 years to go, it serves as a thick barrier to release for good time credits. So it does serve a function, even if, yes, of course, he'll never serve 150 years.
 
Meh.. when I was given my slap on the wrist letter from my ISP several years ago, all I did was start requesting movies and cds through the local library... RIAA still loses.
 
[quote name='spmahn']Really though, anyone who still uses P2P software to download or share illegal or copyrighted materials is an idiot who deserves to have the book thrown at them.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but shouldn't we have the right to make backup physical and/or streaming copies of our bought DVDs/Blu-rays for our own personal use? That may be next in the crusade, thanks to the DMCA.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's not really being debated here, Ruined.[/QUOTE]

Its not, but the continued capitulation of government to excessive RIAA/MPAA legal crusades and consumer restrictions is troubling for our futures as consumers of media, so it is a concern of mine.

Is $24 worth of songs really worth a 1.92mil verdict no matter how much they were shared? Not in my book. Its similar for when doctors get sued for some ridiculous amount of money and the court just rolls with it.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']...how...profound. I've never thought of the "original still has a copy" angle. :roll:

from a legal standpoint, the definition of theft is fully satisfied with the taking of property without consent. it does not specify that the owner does not retain possession of any, all, or no part of what was taken. To prevent this mind-numbing semantics discussion, this is why in my earlier post I said that, if you want to debate the definition of a word, you would want to debate the definition of "take." Theft is satisfied without regard to the result of the owner by virtue of the precise wording of the definition.[/QUOTE]

While it may simplify things for the masses and give much-needed emotive weight for the outrageous claims made by big IP stakeholders, ultimately it does not make sense to refer to copyright infringement as theft or stealing. Copyright infringement is so different from theft that even a child can understand the difference. Witness the reaction of any young teen who watches the infamous "you wouldn't steal a car, so why do you steal music" propaganda put out by the RIAA/MPAA, it will be either disbelief or laughter.

Strip it down to the core - the purpose of the legislation. The purpose of the intellectual property concept and copyright law is to promote innovation and creativity. Without this there would be no reason to prohibit intellectual property from being distributed far and wide, free of cost, for the betterment of all. The purpose of prosecuting theft is to ensure that people who attempt to permenently deprive others of their rightfully-owned property are punished.

Copyright infringement is surely a mouthful, and it would be nice if we could find a 5 letter-word that encapsulates the concept. But theft is not that word.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']you play the slippery slope too much.[/QUOTE]

When a single mom is bankrupted for sharing 24 tunes, I think this is one slippery slope we have already fallen down.
 
i'm not arguing that they are the same.

I am arguing that the *legal definition* fits, no matter how you think that *philosophically* it should not. philosophical definitions hold no legal weight.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']i'm not arguing that they are the same.

I am arguing that the *legal definition* fits, no matter how you think that *philosophically* it should not. philosophical definitions hold no legal weight.[/QUOTE]

I'm just going to wiki this for you:

Copyright infringement is often equated with theft, for instance in the title of the No Electronic Theft Act of 1997, but differs in certain respects.
Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:
interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ...
The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.
—Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218
The key distinction generally drawn, as indicated above, is that while copyright infringement may (or may not) cause economic loss to the copyright holder, as theft does, it does not appropriate a physical object, nor deprive the copyright holder of the use of the copyright. That information can be replicated without destroying an original is an old observation,[56] and a cornerstone of intellectual property law. In economic terms, information is not a rival good; this has led some to argue that it is very different in character, and that laws for physical property and intellectual property should be very different.[57]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#Comparison_to_theft
 
The NET Act was passed 12 years after Dowling v United States. Hope the Supreme Court overturned it, then, since this isn't "theft."

I'll be a better person than most of you will ever be, and admit that you've formed a semi-compelling argument against my point. That said, it certainly is not concrete.

I don't disagree that this ruling is absurd - but the thing is, as has been said, it's largely symbolic. There's no way the RIAA is going to be able to get the smallest % of that award from her. But so many of you piracy advocates (and let's be honest, that's precisely what you are) will use this award to decry not the award as excessive - but as a soapbox to demand your continued right to access and possess materials you do not have the right to access and possess.

Piracy is a massive problem - and it deviates from that to argue over an award that will never be collected.
 
See, Myke! We can agree and hold hands and sing in unison on something. :)

I have something I want to discuss about this.

Let's say I own a store. I have a candy bar for sale for $1.00. I paid $0.50 for the Candy Bar. Walmart down the street sells the exact same candy bar for $0.75
Let's say someone comes in and steals that candy bar.
In so-far as determining the value of that individual candy bar, should we go based off what the candy bar cost me? Should we go by my asking price of the candy bar? Should we go by the average retail price for the item? If the customer who stole the candy bar had no intentions of buying the item, is it really "fair" to say it is worth $1.00? What if the customer had planned to buy the item, no one was at the register, so she walked out with it instead? Then is it worth $1.00?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Should an individual's ability to pay have any influence on the damages owed to the victim?[/QUOTE]

Not really, but the issue here is the penalty is way over the damages.

With only 24 songs up, it's hard to imagine there were $1.92 million in damages. I'm mean you're talking songs that probably sell for .99 cents legally so pretty much nearly 2 million downloads to get that damage, and it's hard to imagine she had anywhere remotely close to that many downloads.

So it's just a massively excessive penalty to set an example.

I'm super against piracy, and like I said hate the people who try to justify it online. But I'm also no fan of excessive punishments to set an example as that's not what the legal system (criminal or civil) should be about.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']See, Myke! We can agree and hold hands and sing in unison on something. :)

I have something I want to discuss about this.

Let's say I own a store. I have a candy bar for sale for $1.00. I paid $0.50 for the Candy Bar. Walmart down the street sells the exact same candy bar for $0.75
Let's say someone comes in and steals that candy bar.
In so-far as determining the value of that individual candy bar, should we go based off what the candy bar cost me? Should we go by my asking price of the candy bar? Should we go by the average retail price for the item? If the customer who stole the candy bar had no intentions of buying the item, is it really "fair" to say it is worth $1.00? What if the customer had planned to buy the item, no one was at the register, so she walked out with it instead? Then is it worth $1.00?[/QUOTE]

This especially gets hairy with digital content. It's not like the individual product has material cost, it's all theoretical.

If I copy a heavy metal song 400 times and let them all sit on my hard drive, did it cost anyone anything?
If I gave one of those copies to my dad, who hates metal and would never listen to it, did anyone suffer a loss?

Realistically you can only say the piracy actually cost the owner something if you can prove the recipient of the pirated material would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it. This is, however, virtually impossible to prove - so they usually operate under the assumption that yes they would have (although reality is more likely 95% wouldn't have).

There have been several instances that I have pirated software/music and gone and bought it later after I realized that I used it enough to justify it's purchase because my conscience got the better of me.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']This especially gets hairy with digital content. It's not like the individual product has material cost, it's all theoretical.

If I copy a heavy metal song 400 times and let them all sit on my hard drive, did it cost anyone anything?
If I gave one of those copies to my dad, who hates metal and would never listen to it, did anyone suffer a loss?

Realistically you can only say the piracy actually cost the owner something if you can prove the recipient of the pirated material would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it. This is, however, virtually impossible to prove - so they usually operate under the assumption that yes they would have (although reality is more likely 95% wouldn't have).

There have been several instances that I have pirated software/music and gone and bought it later after I realized that I used it enough to justify it's purchase because my conscience got the better of me.[/QUOTE]

The flip side to that being , that if the person pirating the whatever (game , movie , song) found it was worth the effort to pirate it then obviously it was worth "something" to them. Whether it would have been worth the full value of the product is a different story. Granted , the assumption usually gets played under the "it's so easy to pirate stuff I just grab anything I can get my hands on" but again , if the whatever wasn't worth your money , then why waste your bandwith on it "just because you can"?

I admit that during the Napster craze I downloaded my fair share of music (most of which I no longer have due to a crashed hard drive) but a lot of that material was unavailable to purchase (techno remixes) and a lot of the stuff I downloaded as a means to find out if I would like the material in question. But that's getting off on to another topic entirely.
 
I'm no fan of behavioral economics, but some of the stuff on piracy I've read uses some interesting measures of worth. One study developed a measure of the 'worth' of IP as measured buy the response to the question "how much money would you take if you never had the chance to listen to this album again?"

Of course there's use-value and exchange-value inherent in any object, even if it's infinitely able to be duplicated. Clicking a mouse and burning a disc ain't workin' in a coal mine, but it's still labor. And just like most labor, we neglect to consider the labor "hidden" in an object.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'm no fan of behavioral economics, but some of the stuff on piracy I've read uses some interesting measures of worth. One study developed a measure of the 'worth' of IP as measured buy the response to the question "how much money would you take if you never had the chance to listen to this album again?"[/QUOTE]

The wording on that question seems kinda awkward. I like this phrasing a bit better:

"How much money would we have to give you to never listen to this album again?"
 
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