Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='thrustbucket']So are you telling me that the guy that doesn't pay gets turned away at the emergency room under the new plan?[/QUOTE]

We don't do that now with a broken system costing us a ton, why would we start doing it with a reformed system that saves us money?

@fullmetal, I'm really sick of the "They won't be able to afford a service that is based on what they make" argument. It's a load of shit. Right now the only alternative is to not get health care at all. How's that better? Oh, right, they could go and buy an expensive plan and sell their house and their car and give up their kids college savings if they get sick. That's a much better alternative!
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Well said, fullmetal.

I have been looking for any hard numbers on any independent study on exactly WHY those 30-60 million Americans without Healthcare don't have it. I can't find one so far. Does anyone know of one?

We seem pretty hell bent on getting them healthcare, hell or high water, but nobody seems to be really asking the question "Why don't they have it?" What percentage of those who don't have it don't have it by choice or don't work at all? Or are we, as a nation, really actually saying "Even if you want to live under a bridge, not work, and not contribute - you should have healthcare for free because it's a right". Is that really where we have come?[/QUOTE]
Can't speak for everyone, but i don't have health care because no company will take me due to health problems.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Can't speak for everyone, but i don't have health care because no company will take me due to health problems.[/QUOTE]

Then you are a good example for the type of reform we need. If you have a job and pay taxes and can't get insurance, I have no problem with the government stepping in and providing you with something.
 
[quote name='HowStern']
@fullmetal, I'm really sick of the "They won't be able to afford a service that is based on what they make" argument. [/QUOTE]
I'm really sick of you and everyone else who supports these bills saying that they are going to be so great, and expand coverage to everyone. It is partly based on what they make, but it is a minimum of 11-12% of someone's income that is being taken away before the subsidies kick in. I don't know how you expect a family that is making barely enough to feed their kids, and pay for rent on their home to afford that.
It's a load of shit. Right now the only alternative is to not get health care at all. How's that better?
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How are the plans being debated better?
Oh, right, they could go and buy an expensive plan and sell their house and their car and give up their kids college savings if they get sick. That's a much better alternative!
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Do you know how to fucking read? No where in my posts have I suggested anything like this. I have instead suggested a variety of things, including expanding Medicare to the people who cannot get/afford insurance, letting the states handle it, while giving them funding to expand care, and a life/car insurance like option for health care insurance that only covers emergencies. All of these would be much better options than the bills that are currently being debated.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Can't speak for everyone, but i don't have health care because no company will take me due to health problems.[/QUOTE]

There also plenty of people who have insurance that won't cover something considered preexisting, so they are covered for almost everything except for what they would probably need attention for.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']I'm really sick of you and everyone else who supports these bills saying that they are going to be so great, and expand coverage to everyone. It is partly based on what they make, but it is a minimum of 11-12% of someone's income that is being taken away before the subsidies kick in. [/quote]

Source that isn't an op-ed or blog?

Do you know how to fucking read? No where in my posts have I suggested anything like this. I have instead suggested a variety of things, including expanding Medicare to the people who cannot get/afford insurance, letting the states handle it, while giving them funding to expand care, and a life/car insurance like option for health care insurance that only covers emergencies. All of these would be much better options than the bills that are currently being debated.
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LOL..Completely unrealistic. How will we pay for these things while we continue to pay 3x more per person than every other industrialized nation?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']So what does it say in the proposed bills is the penalty for not paying for health insurance or not having it?[/QUOTE]
You should totally do some original research and hook us up with that.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Source that isn't an op-ed or blog? [/QUOTE]
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMRM8IFKa3ZmMaa-N_nRCuf9U9oAD99ODVVG0
_Poor people would get subsidies to help them buy care after spending 12 percent of their income on premiums, instead of 11 percent in the existing bill.
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LOL..Completely unrealistic. How will we pay for these things while we continue to pay 3x more per person than every other industrialized nation?
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How will we pay for a public option? Cut 500 billion off Medicare? That will work real well. You know, giving government control of something doesn't mean it magically starts working right. Actually, it tends to mean the opposite.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Leave Iraq. That's $50-100 billion per year easy.[/QUOTE]
And Afghanistan, and everywhere else. Do we really need troops in Japan or Germany anymore?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Pull out of Afghanistan? Ummm...huh?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I'm not against sending aid to other countries when they face major natural disasters, but aside from that, let's fix our problems here before we worry about fixing the rest of the globe.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gMRM8IFKa3ZmMaa-N_nRCuf9U9oAD99ODVVG0[/quote]

In germany when the poor hit 15% of their income spent on their forced coverage the government steps in and helps pay for it bringing them back down to about 5%. I believe what the link you provided is saying is that if what you spend on coverage equals 12% or more of your income the government steps in and helps foot the bill in the same way bringing you down to a lesser amount.

How will we pay for a public option?
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Forced coverage fees and fines. Like in Germany.

Or we could stop spending on dumb shit like foc said.
 
If the "Public Option" will be so wonderfully great, why have "forced" coverage in the first place? Won't people just flock to it in droves?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Yes. I'm not against sending aid to other countries when they face major natural disasters, but aside from that, let's fix our problems here before we worry about fixing the rest of the globe.[/QUOTE]

My point is that Afghanistan ≠ Korea ≠ Okinawa ≠ Hiedelberg ≠ Iraq. There's a war going on in Afghanistan still.
 
Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there's still a war going on in Iraq. It's not as violent as it was, but it's still there.

But, frankly, too much of what we're into isn't our fight. Get us out and, after a healthy stay at home with their families and loved ones, put our boys to work building a nice fence along our two borders.
 
[quote name='Msut77']http://edlabor.house.gov/newsroom/2009/07/cbo-scores-confirms-deficit-ne.shtml[/QUOTE]
CBO estimated more than $550 billion in gross Medicare and Medicaid savings.
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What is this going to be at the cost of? How do you cut 500 billion from the budget without a reduction in quality of care?
[quote name='mykevermin']Pull out of Afghanistan? Ummm...huh?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you heard me right. We shouldn't have gone in the first place, and we shouldn't be there now. It seems like all we have been doing there lately is bombing civilians, which I'm sure makes the people love us.
[quote name='mykevermin']My point is that Afghanistan ≠ Korea ≠ Okinawa ≠ Hiedelberg ≠ Iraq. There's a war going on in Afghanistan still.[/QUOTE]
So? We've been in there for almost 10 years now. The Soviets fell into the same quagmire that we have, and at least they knew when to pull out. Hell, by this time in the war the Soviets figured out that they needed to leave. It's pretty sad we still haven't.
[quote name='UncleBob']If the "Public Option" will be so wonderfully great, why have "forced" coverage in the first place? Won't people just flock to it in droves?[/QUOTE]
I wish someone would answer this. Unfortunately, I don't think anyone will.
[quote name='HowStern']In germany when the poor hit 15% of their income spent on their forced coverage the government steps in and helps pay for it bringing them back down to about 5%. I believe what the link you provided is saying is that if what you spend on coverage equals 12% or more of your income the government steps in and helps foot the bill in the same way bringing you down to a lesser amount. [/QUOTE]
No, I don't think that's how it works. It says:
Poor people would get subsidies to help them buy care after spending 12 percent of their income on premiums, instead of 11 percent in the existing bill.
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It sounds like they would get the rest of the bill footed by the government, after 11 or 12 percent of their income goes to health care premiums.
Forced coverage fees and fines. Like in Germany.
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That sounds so fun.
Or we could stop spending on dumb shit like foc said.
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Like that will happen.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']
No, I don't think that's how it works. It says:
It sounds like they would get the rest of the bill footed by the government, after 11 or 12 percent of their income goes to health care premiums.
[/quote]
I know what it says and it sounds exactly like the German system. If what you pay equals 12% of your income the government will step in and help pay for it so it no longer costs you 12% of your income. In germany the max is 15%. But your employer pays half, so it's actually if you pay 8% you get help footing the bill bringing you down to 5% or possibly less.

Also, in Germany, if someone is married with children, only one spouse has to pay this fee and the wife/husband and kids are then all covered under the plan.


That sounds so fun.
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The alternative being to continue to watch our system collapse on itself paying more than every other industrialized nation while we have a much lower life expectancy, lesser quality care, and much smaller percentage of insured population.

Some quick comparisons.
http://itsyourtimes.com/?q=node/4582
 
I have talked to Canadians, they say their doctors are idiots, but it's free.

Doctors in the USA are idiots and it will literally cost you an arm and a leg!

And all this talk of a public option... just shows that US schools are so horrible that half the country doesn't seem to know what the meaning of option is.
 
[quote name='HowStern']I know what it says and it sounds exactly like the German system. If what you pay equals 12% of your income the government will step in and help pay for it so it no longer costs you 12% of your income. In germany the max is 15%. But your employer pays half, so it's actually if you pay 8% you get help footing the bill bringing you down to 5% or possibly less.

Also, in Germany, if someone is married with children, only one spouse has to pay this fee and the wife/husband and kids are then all covered under the plan. [/quote]
We aren't Germany. We're one of the least egalitarian countries in the world. (We used to be the most!) I somehow find it hard to believe that this would be the case, when the article probably would have said that then, if that was the case.

The alternative being to continue to watch our system collapse on itself paying more than every other industrialized nation while we have a much lower life expectancy, lesser quality care, and much smaller percentage of insured population.

Some quick comparisons.
http://itsyourtimes.com/?q=node/4582
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I think you've got the wrong health care system collapsing. That would be our neighbors to the north.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."
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[quote name='perdition(troy']Last time I checked the news the only healthcare system I heard about "collapsing" was the canadian one.[/QUOTE]

You should check again. Link below.

[quote name='fullmetalfan720']
I think you've got the wrong health care system collapsing. That would be our neighbors to the north.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw[/QUOTE]

No, it certainly is our system that is collapsing.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

National Health Care Spending

-National health spending is expected to reach $2.5 trillion in 2009, accounting for 17.6 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). By 2018, national health care expenditures are expected to reach $4.4 trillion—more than double 2007 spending.1

-National health expenditures are expected to increase faster than the growth in GDP: between 2008 and 2018, the average increase in national health expenditures is expected to be 6.2 percent per year, while the GDP is expected to increase only 4.1 percent per year. 1
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and

The Impact of Rising Health Care Costs

-A recent study found that 62 percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses. Of those who filed for bankruptcy, nearly 80 percent had health insurance.9

-According to another published article, about 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs.10

-Without health care reform, small businesses will pay nearly $2.4 trillion dollars over the next ten years in health care costs for their workers, 178,000 small business jobs will be lost by 2018 as a result of health care costs, $834 billion in small business wages will be lost due to high health care costs over the next ten years, small businesses will lose $52.1 billion in profits to high health care costs and 1.6 million small business workers will suffer “job lock“— roughly one in 16 people currently insured by their employers.11
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[quote name='perdition(troy']That's exactly what we need to be spending our tax money on. Free treatment in ER's for illegals "in certain cases".[/QUOTE]

Money is spent on them the way the system is now.

And one "certain case" Obama has talked about is in the case of the children of illegal immigrants.

Is there anyone who would be against that?
 
Yeah that's pretty fucked. Punishing children because their parents are immigrants.

Not to mention you would essentially be clogging ERs up everywhere since children get sick so often.
So, next time someone in your family has a heart attack and has to wait longer in the ER you can relax. He's just waiting because some kid has a cold with a fever but didn't have health insurance.
 
illegal immigrants*

See, my parents were immigrants. My parents came here legally.

I have never seen a clogged ER that hasn't been able to deal with a heart attach patient. If you ever have been in a hospital, you'd know there are things called codes. Staff will drop everything at the drop of a hat when one is called.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']illegal immigrants*

See, my parents were immigrants. My parents came here legally.[/quote]

No one cares and it really means nothing in the context of helping a potentially dying child.

I have never seen a clogged ER that hasn't been able to deal with a heart attack patient. If you ever have been in a hospital, you'd know there are things called codes. Staff will drop everything at the drop of a hat when one is called.
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What does happen is that an ambulance with someone who had a heart attack will have to go to different hospitals because the ER is at capacity.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']No, it won't.[/quote]

It happens about once a minute.

Do you have any knowledge of how a hospital works?
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I don't work in a hospital but I know of the term "divert status" which makes me more knowledgeable than you.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']illegal immigrants*

See, my parents were immigrants. My parents came here legally.

I have never seen a clogged ER that hasn't been able to deal with a heart attach patient. If you ever have been in a hospital, you'd know there are things called codes. Staff will drop everything at the drop of a hat when one is called.[/QUOTE]


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5884487&page=1
 
Question: Two hypothetical families. One consists of a working father, a working mother and two children. The parents make just enough to get by and pay for their children's health care. They don't break the law.

Second family consists of an illegal immigrant father, an illegal immigrant mother and two illegal immigrant children. The parents do work, but since they're illegal, they've had to break the law more and work under someone else's identity. They don't make much money - so they end up depending on the State to pay for their children's health care.

So - why should the first family be "punished" and have to pay for their children's health care when the second family is the one breaking the law?
 
LOU DOBBS!

Seriously? You're a smart dude, but sometimes the hypotheticals you sculpt agonize the fuck out of my brain.

Illegals drink from water fountains. I pay taxes. WTF is up with that shit?

LOU DOBBS!
 
I don't think drinking from a water fountain and paying taxes are equatable.

I think, two similar families, one breaking the law and one not breaking the law, with one family getting "rewarded" and one family getting "punished" is similar.

For the record, I'm actually for less strict immigration laws. I'm for building a fence and I'm for kicking every single illegal immigrant (and virtually every single politician) out - but I'm not against letting in virtually anyone who wants to come in and add to the "value" of this country. Of course, we need some major tax reform laws first (I know you don't like it Myke, but - FairTax!).
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I don't think drinking from a water fountain and paying taxes are equatable.

I think, two similar families, one breaking the law and one not breaking the law, with one family getting "rewarded" and one family getting "punished" is similar.

For the record, I'm actually for less strict immigration laws. I'm for building a fence and I'm for kicking every single illegal immigrant (and virtually every single politician) out - but I'm not against letting in virtually anyone who wants to come in and add to the "value" of this country. Of course, we need some major tax reform laws first (I know you don't like it Myke, but - FairTax!).[/QUOTE]

So ... The problem is the government and not the illegal immigrants?

Why are illegal immigrants such a target?

Let's get past the illegal immigrant part. Several peoples' ancestors came into this country illegally or under less than honorable circumstances over the past 225 years.

Effectively, you have poor person in the US that may speak some English.

That person pays taxes every time he or she buys gasoline, a Whopper or a pair of shoes.

"That person is ruining health care." You're right. They are in the same spot as anybody on Medicaid or Medicare except their wages aren't paying into Medicaid or Medicare. Of course, their wages aren't paying towards the Social Security retirement, disability or life insurance benefits. What happens when that immigrant hits 67 (I hope they invested some money), or loses an arm on or off the job (They weren't paying into worker's comp and the government has no tax returns to base a disability check on) or dies unexpectedly (No monthly check for their spouse or children under 18)?

The above assumes Juan or Juanita Illegalo work for cash under the table.

IF they are using somebody else's identity, then they are paying all applicable taxes.

...

The boy just woke up, I'll get back to this maybe.
 
Interesting thing about that survey (aside from the way some of the stuff is phrased)...

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=5ba17aa2-f1b9-4445-a6b8-62b9d1ba8693
43% Oppose and 51% Support Obama's plan (which the survey condensed 1,000+ pages down to two lines...). Yet 77% support a public option. I think this goes to show, perhaps, there's a rather large group out there that sees through Obama's lies and deals within the Health Care industry.

Also interesting in the survey results is the %for/against in regards to annual income...
 
I found this Newsweek piece one of the better things I've read about all the FUD on the health care plans and why it catches on while the facts get lost in the shuffle.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/212131

The white house really needs to do more to make the plan clear and dispell myths. Having a lot of debate on the topic is good, but it needs to be centered on facts of the plan not lies and misinformation that distracts from what's really being proposed.
 
[quote name='Ruined']McCain: Public option must be dropped for agreement on healthcare.

http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/mccain_public_option/2009/08/23/251279.html

McCain is 100% spot on here. There are alternatives to massive gov't intervention that can create more competition/options.[/QUOTE]

You believe that Republicans will vote on any kind of Democrat-sponsored health care reform?

That's akin to wondering if Lucy will let Charlie Brown kick the football this time.
 
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