Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='Koggit']actually i can't think of a single active poster who would defend republicans

we have a good share of conservatives, but the GOP is no longer the party for conservatives[/QUOTE]

I can think of several they just pretty much never would admit it.

In my experience 90 some odd percent of the libertarians you find online lean Republican/conservative but just do not want to have to defend anything.
 
I know this'll go over well, but perhaps the reform we need is for a hospital to reserve the right to refuse service. If hospitals could do this, my small town would still have a hospital - instead of it closing due to lack of funds and no one interested in reopening it.

I know, I know, I'm an evil bastard - but you two just gave examples of some of the exact reasons I don't care for this plan. My tax money shouldn't go for some idiot's ring tones or some drunken whore's beer. Providing them with dirt cheap health care at the expense of others isn't going to suddenly make them change their ways.
 
[quote name='Msut77']No you don't keep hearing that. That would be a strawman you might have had a chance of tackling instead of what has been stated that basically every other industrialized country manages to cover all of their citizens and yet spend less than we do.[/quote]
The question is, who's spending the money and who's getting the results?

Because Obama and crew are apparently banned now from appointing/hiring people with that expertise...
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And I assume the smart guy with money is also banned from appointing/hiring people with those credentials as well?

Can you name a single country with a universal healthcare system where anyone is agitating for a move to an American style system?
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Nope - but I worry less about what every other country is doing and more about what's right for America.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I know this'll go over well, but perhaps the reform we need is for a hospital to reserve the right to refuse service. If hospitals could do this, my small town would still have a hospital - instead of it closing due to lack of funds and no one interested in reopening it.

I know, I know, I'm an evil bastard - but you two just gave examples of some of the exact reasons I don't care for this plan. My tax money shouldn't go for some idiot's ring tones or some drunken whore's beer. Providing them with dirt cheap health care at the expense of others isn't going to suddenly make them change their ways.[/QUOTE]

Well what about people like my fianceees grandparents then? Her grandpa lost his job and they lost most of their retirement savings. Her grandma cant work because of a number of health reasons. Insurers dont want to cover them and at the same time they cant get government care yet.

Then you just have young people that cant afford health insurance or have reasons they are not covered. Once again using family as an example ill use my actual fiancee vs a family member of hers ;) A few years ago she went through a depression and actually tried to kill herself. It was a pretty dark period but with medication and going to therapy it worked itself out. Problem was she lost her job because of taking time off during that depression which means she lost her insurance. It took her awhile to find another job which provided insurance and before that we were stuck with some major medical bills because no one would freaking insure her all because of one stupid point in her life where she went through a depression.

I can understand the conservative/libretarian point of view. But saying we should deny service because of idiots is just flat out wrong and eviils since it will also deny service to many that actually deserve/need it.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I know this'll go over well, but perhaps the reform we need is for a hospital to reserve the right to refuse service. [/QUOTE]

If you are really suggesting something like this, I officially declare your status as FAIL!

This country is based on the idea of compassion towards others. I'll admit that it doesn't always work that way all the time, but that's no reason to give up the fight.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']The question is, who's spending the money and who's getting the results?[/quote]

Really that is the question? I wouldn't call it much of a question at all.

Short answer is for the most part everyone who can pays and everyone gets the results both in care and reduced costs and a wide range of other benefits.

And I assume the smart guy with money is also banned from appointing/hiring people with those credentials as well?
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The "guy" with "some" money?

Nope - but I worry less about what every other country is doing and more about what's right for America.
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Worry is a poor (albeit probably intentionally so) word to use. What is right for America is to have a system that doesn't bankrupt its own citizens.

I know this'll go over well, but perhaps the reform we need is for a hospital to reserve the right to refuse service.
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You can say that because you are young and relatively healthy, no doubt the second you ran into the tiniest bit of hardship (or a relative gets thrown to the wolves for failing to report a minor illness) you would change your tune.
 
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[quote name='ninju D']If you are really suggesting something like this, I officially declare your status as FAIL!

This country is based on the idea of compassion towards others. I'll admit that it doesn't always work that way all the time, but that's no reason to give up the fight.[/QUOTE]

Where's the compassion when the only hospital within an hour's drive of my small town is forced to go out of business because of all the dead beats that can't/won't pay their medical bills?

Besides, I never said a hospital or medical personnel would be forced to withhold service. It should be the choice of the private business establishment to do what they think is right. Is it really "right" to serve a bunch of dead beats to the point where you can no longer operate and now *everyone* risks their lives because there's no local emergency service?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Worry is a poor (albeit probably intentionally so) word to use. What is right for America is to have a system that doesn't bankrupt its own citizens.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps it's time for you to use some Google. We're already bankrupt - we're just too damn stupid to realize it. Hundreds of Billions of dollars in debt. But it's all good. We can just print more money. The dollar will never fail.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Where's the compassion when the only hospital within an hour's drive of my small town is forced to go out of business because of all the dead beats that can't/won't pay their medical bills?[/quote]

It isn't just traditional deadbeats that cannot pay their medical bills. How many times does this have to be brought up?

We're already bankrupt
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Another canard?

The national debt is not the same thing as millions of American citizen going bankrupt due to medical debt.

That was pretty sad even for you.
 
[quote name='Msut77']It isn't just traditional deadbeats that cannot pay their medical bills. How many times does this have to be brought up?[/QUOTE]

You can bring it up as many times as you feel it's relevant.

It doesn't change the fact that my community no longer has a hospital or emergency medical service because our local hospital could no longer afford to stay open due to the deadbeats (traditional or otherwise) that did not pay their bills.

Are you okay with communities that have no hospital or emergency medical services? How many people get to die now? But yey! The deadbeat meth heads got their treatment a few years ago, so it's all good.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']You can bring it up as many times as you feel it's relevant.[/quote]

Relevant facts do tend to be relevant.

Are you okay with communities that have no hospital or emergency medical services?
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No, but that would be a problem resulting from the system you are ostensibly defending.

The deadbeat meth heads got their treatment a few years ago, so it's all good.
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See the first part of my post.
 
[quote name='Msut77']No, but that would be a problem resulting from the system you are ostensibly defending. [/QUOTE]

Really?
Because the system I'm defending should be allowed the right to refuse service. I don't think the establishments in the current system are allowed that right - and that's what caused the hospital to close.

Just like, in some states, Health Insurance companies cannot write policies to women that don't cover pregnancy - driving up the costs of those policies.

Just like in some states, these companies cannot write policies that don't cover rehabilitation treatments for illegal drugs. Bet that drives up the costs of policies as well.

But, in your world, individuals won't have to pay the same fair costs for their coverage, so I guess it doesn't matter what restrictions are put on health care coverage.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Because the system I'm defending should be allowed the right to refuse service.[/quote]

Like I pointed out before... you say that now but there is no doubt you would change your tune the moment something went pear shaped.

But, in your world, individuals won't have to pay the same fair costs for their coverage, so I guess it doesn't matter what restrictions are put on health care coverage.
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In "my world"? I live in the real world not some Hobbesian fantasy construct like you.
 
[quote name='Msut77']In "my world"? I live in the real world not some Hobbesian fantasy construct like you.[/QUOTE]

Really? How's that Universal Health Coverage working out for you? :)
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Really? How's that Universal Health Coverage working out for you? :)[/QUOTE]

In places where they have it i.e. the real world? Fine.

Did you ever happen to get around to finding a single country that wants to make the switch to the an American style healthcare system? Prove everyone wrong and show you are capable of something.
 
I tell you what - I'll make you a deal. When you can find an entire single country that has some form of "Universal Health Care" that any health care system at all that the country is completely, 100% happy with and wouldn't trade it for the world, then I'll admit you're right, bow out and never return to this forum.

But it must be the entire country that is completely content with their current health care system.

Otherwise, we'll just have to agree that, some people like one type of system, some people like another... but no one is completely happy with what they've got.
 
how about you find me a country in which everyone agrees poop isn't a good thing to eat



many countries have universal health care and higher public approval ratings of that care than of our system (that is, if you consider americans' favoring reform to be disapproving of the current system, which i'd say is a fair translation)... but no, that's not enough for you, you pretend to prove a system is "working out" requires 100% approval...

if you don't have an argument, why post? i don't get it. you're not fooling anyone -- everyone sees and acknowledges that you're simply trying to 'win' some sort of debate rather than arguing for any consistent belief. just drop it man.
 
If I don't have an argument, why are you continuing to attempt to defend your point of view? If you don't want to continue this conversation with me, then I welcome you to not hit the reply button. Or, even Click Here. Personal attacks hurt the conversation a lot more than you claim my posts do.

Msut is the one who seems to think I need to find a "country" that favors an American-type health care system. I can find articles and studies from individuals in countries with government-sponsored health care that would support an American-style system, but I'm sure that'd be considered anecdotal and fringe and wouldn't count.

Everyone isn't going to be happy with one system.
 
do you really wanna go down that road?

i guess we can, nothing substantial's been said about health care for 100+ posts.

the short answer is no, i don't have a problem with prop 8 -- i have a problem with marriage's split personality.

marriage must either be A, a religious union, or B, or legal union. it cannot be both, as it currently is, that causes far too many problems (like prop 8). if it's A, there should be no law governing it, it's unconstitutional to pass legislation to control religion. if it's B, all classes should have equal access to it, it's unconstitutional to discriminate.

in my utopia, no book of law has the word marriage in it, each religion can determine whether or not they marry gays, and every american couple is entitled to register for a civil union and the benefits involved.
 
[quote name='Koggit']yeah, democracy, terrifying[/QUOTE]

Yeah democracy is terrifying. Tyranny of the majority is not a good prospect. If 51% of people think we should send all Muslims to concentration camps, should we do it? No, we should tell those 51% to fuck off, because this is America and we don't do that.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']Yeah democracy is terrifying. Tyranny of the majority is not a good prospect. If 51% of people think we should send all Muslims to concentration camps, should we do it? No, we should tell those 51% to fuck off, because this is America and we don't do that.[/QUOTE]

That's what the Supreme Court is for. It's kind of a Constitutional check to any sort of "majority tyranny" that might happen. And please stop equating Muslim concentration camps with gay marriage or health care reform in an attempt to scare people to your side of an argument. Oh no, democracy can't be the best. It'll alllow the gov't to round people up. It's the same bullshit you pulled with your Obama Nazi Youth statement. Your politics are the worse kind of spineless bullshit that conservatives are flocking to now. We're not Republicans but we'll spew out every one of their talking points and use every one their scare tactics.

Besides, this is America. We don't vote to send people to concentration camps. We just do it. You might want to check out what happened during WWII.
 
"51%" and "concentration camps"? That's your response?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/120890/Healthcare-Americans-Trust-Physicians-Politicians.aspx
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In other, related news: http://www.rollcall.com/news/35940-1.html
House Republicans presented a four-page outline of their health care reform plan Wednesday but said they didn’t know yet how much it would cost, how they would pay for it and how many of the nearly 50 million Americans without insurance would be covered by it.
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[quote name='UncleBob']I tell you what - I'll make you a deal. When you can find an entire single country that has some form of "Universal Health Care" that any health care system at all that the country is completely, 100% happy with and wouldn't trade it for the world, then I'll admit you're right, bow out and never return to this forum.[/quote]

You don't have to leave, I would just settle for you to actually try and make a cogent argument.

But it must be the entire country that is completely content with their current health care system.
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Your deals are as bad as your positions which run the gamut from ad hoc to post hoc.


Otherwise, we'll just have to agree that
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No.

If I don't have an argument, why are you continuing to attempt to defend your point of view?
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You don't have an argument which is why you resort to silly questions. You actually appear mortally offended when someone asks you a question, that is when you don't just ignore it outright.

Personal attacks hurt the conversation a lot more than you claim my posts do.
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It is not a personal attack to point the gaping logical holes in what you post.
 
I try not to be rude but anyone that insists on the right to refuse service doesnt belong in this debate because they dont understand what it is that's being debated.
 
Yeah, hospitals can NOT deny service. Why should HMOs be allowed to? Aren't they both private organizations?

Health care is just not an issue that be resolved in the private sector because it's not just a private sector issue. This is a public health issue that needs to be solved with honest discussion about the issues that arise when 50 million people aren't covered and cause everyone to pay more anyway.

If everyone is covered, then maybe 50 million people don't go to the ER for a flu like symptoms. People that have real emergencies can get fast and prompt treatment but it seems like everyone loves waiting six hours in a waiting room in the name of Free Market Capitalism.
 
[quote name='depascal22']That's what the Supreme Court is for. It's kind of a Constitutional check to any sort of "majority tyranny" that might happen. And please stop equating Muslim concentration camps with gay marriage or health care reform in an attempt to scare people to your side of an argument. Oh no, democracy can't be the best. It'll alllow the gov't to round people up. It's the same bullshit you pulled with your Obama Nazi Youth statement. Your politics are the worse kind of spineless bullshit that conservatives are flocking to now. We're not Republicans but we'll spew out every one of their talking points and use every one their scare tactics.

Besides, this is America. We don't vote to send people to concentration camps. We just do it. You might want to check out what happened during WWII.[/QUOTE]

Democracy is the one of the worst forms of government. The founding fathers knew that, and that is why America is a constitutional republic. If this was a democracy and 51% of people voted for something, it became law. I'm not equating concentration camps to gay marriage or health care. Notice how I said TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY. I don't think many people would actually consider government run health care tyranny, or gay marriage tyranny. The whole system of checks and balances in America doesn't work very well anymore, especially with the Patriot Act, and some of Bush's executive orders still standing. The fact is, if you would read DoD Directive 1404.10, you would see why I am concerned about Obama's National Security Force turning into some type of Nazi Youth program. (I mean a force that would not only be deployed overseas, but also domestically, to "keep the peace.")
 
So, again, are you okay with a situation where the only hospital within a community is forced to close because some people don't pay their bills, leaving the entire community without emergency care?

Propose an alternative situation where I and my family don't suffer because some meth head junkie needs medical care.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, again, are you okay with a situation where the only hospital within a community is forced to close because some people don't pay their bills, leaving the entire community without emergency care?

Propose an alternative situation where I and my family don't suffer because some meth head junkie needs medical care.[/QUOTE]

Sigh we have proposed it your just ignoring it because its not your solution. Its not your solution so it must not work, or tread on your personal liberties or blah blah blah. We know for a fact your solution doesnt work....because well everyone isnt covered and expert after expert has said it will either lead to inhumane situations or higher costs. Meanwhile you just refuse to even look at the alternative plans.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Sigh we have proposed it your just ignoring it because its not your solution. Its not your solution so it must not work, or tread on your personal liberties or blah blah blah. We know for a fact your solution doesnt work....because well everyone isnt covered and expert after expert has said it will either lead to inhumane situations or higher costs. Meanwhile you just refuse to even look at the alternative plans.[/QUOTE]

No, you haven't. A government option will require tax money. Tax money taken out of my paycheck is less money I and my family get to make use of.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']No, you haven't. A government option will require tax money. Tax money taken out of my paycheck is less money I and my family get to make use of.[/QUOTE]

See this is why I cant be a libertarian. When I first heard about it both me and my fiancee thought wow thats what we are. A belief in persona liberty! A belief in the rights of each and every American! Keeping government out of our business and our pocket! However then I realized just how impossible it is to be both a kind person and a libertarian in this day and age.

Its childish that you argue that we can smoke and do things that harm others, but yet its perfectly acceptable to deny health care service to those that need it just because of the assholes that are let in with the good people. I will admit there are probably more assholes then there are good people, but as long as those good people like my fiancee and her grandparents are there it makes it impossible to deny care. And as long as its impossible to deny care that means we have to come up with an alternative.

There in lies the problem. Your "alternative" has been shown to be impossible(like most libertarian plans) because even if we are a society of cold hearted dicks we want to believe we are good people. And as long as thats the case it means we will never allow a plan like yours...which no offense is for cold hearted dicks that care more about having a few extra bucks in their pocket then getting the job done. So again we are offering a perfectly reasonable alternative but you just cant accept it, where as your alternative is not just not acceptable to the masses, its not acceptable period because.....well its a cold hearted dick thing to do.

So ya, your not even in this debate man. Your worse then even the Republicans who pretend to be in the debate.
 
Link Dump: http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=480067

MSI: See, that's the typical folly I see all the time. Simply because I don't want to see my tax dollars being wasted on meth heads, it doesn't mean I want to leave, say, the elderly out. Since you know absolutely nothing about my private life, you don't know what kind of charitable work I do or don't do and you don't know what kind of private donations I make or don't make. You *assume* that because I think individuals and businesses should have a right to choose where and how they spend their money that I'm a cold, heartless bastard that would kick an old lady off my front porch in the wintertime, then go back to my warm couch and eat my stuffed turkey. I assure you, I'm not. And I don't believe the majority of Americans would be either.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Link Dump: http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=480067

MSI: See, that's the typical folly I see all the time. Simply because I don't want to see my tax dollars being wasted on meth heads, it doesn't mean I want to leave, say, the elderly out. Since you know absolutely nothing about my private life, you don't know what kind of charitable work I do or don't do and you don't know what kind of private donations I make or don't make. You *assume* that because I think individuals and businesses should have a right to choose where and how they spend their money that I'm a cold, heartless bastard that would kick an old lady off my front porch in the wintertime, then go back to my warm couch and eat my stuffed turkey. I assure you, I'm not. And I don't believe the majority of Americans would be either.[/QUOTE]

*rolls his eyes*

It doesnt matter if you would turn around and give money to charity do you honestly think most people would? Charity is the cry of conservatism yet at the same time they cry that people are too stupid to buy health care and buy ring tones. So lets get this straight, people are selfish and stupid....yet will turn around and give to charity? RIIIIIGHT

Even T Boone one of the richest most conservative guys around has come out and said that charity doesn't work anymore nor does leaving it to corporations because America isnt the same country it was before. Conservative hero Ronald Reagan made damn sure of that. We are now a country all about wealth. Making certain that everyone has a job and everyone is feed/taken care of is not even secondary let alone peoples first priority.

I think a good example of this is again my fiancees family. They are all big Christians and all push the same beliefs as you, keep government out of our business and leave things up to charity. Yet we are pariahs come Christmas time simply because we say don't buy us gifts and we arnt buying you gifts, instead anything you would spend on us give to charity.

So again I say you are burying your head in the sand. You are holding on to ideals that belong and would have worked great in the 20s and 30s but are dead/defunct in modern society.
 
It's interesting - I'm the cold-blooded jerk, but you're the one with the negative outlook on humanity as a whole.

All well, it's a good thing we have the government to force us to give to government ran charity at gun point. Otherwise, we'd all be dead... or something...
 
[quote name='UncleBob']No, you haven't.[/quote]

Yes we have.

A government option will require tax money. Tax money taken out of my paycheck is less money I and my family get to make use of.
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Tax money is spent now, it is just spent in about the least optimal a way as possible.

If "more" in tax money is spent but you still end up paying less overall it would still be a net benefit to you.

It's interesting - I'm the cold-blooded jerk
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That is how you come off. Like I said before though the second something bad happened to you or someone you care about you would change your tune.

p.s. Your focus on some apocryphal methheads ruining it for everyone else is getting to the point where you can be labeled shamelessly dishonest.
 
[quote name='Msut77']p.s. Your focus on some apocryphal methheads ruining it for everyone else is getting to the point where you can be labeled shamelessly dishonest.[/QUOTE]

http://www.southernillinoisan.com/articles/2009/04/19/local/28890509.txt

Although police made fewer arrests, the amount of the various forms of meth seized was about 10 times greater in 2008 than in 2007.

The increase, officials say, is likely because they are now catching more manufacturers in the selling process, rather than in the earlier production phases.

"They're seizing more finished meth now than they were in the past," said Eric Hall, statewide methamphetamine coordinator for the Illinois State Police.
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Perhaps you should spend some time in my local community before you call the meth heads imaginary.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Perhaps you should spend some time in my local community before you call the meth heads imaginary.[/quote]

I do not doubt your local community has a severe meth problem, it would explain a lot actually.

What I am saying is that it is not the case that meth addicts or you know "deadbeats" are the ones ruining the system for everyone because it is regular, everyday people including those who are solidly middle class who can't afford healthcare.

This has been explained to you multiple times and it is more than fair to say you are being dishonest.
 
One of the many reasons heath care costs are so high is due to "spreading the wealth" (or lack of it) from those who don't pay to those who do. When five dead beats go to the hospital for a band-aid, then you walk into get one, you're going to be charged for six band-aids.

If we stopped trying to make the health care industry eat the costs of those who don't pay, perhaps the costs of doing business would be lower and your middle class families could afford health care.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']One of the many reasons heath care costs are so high is due to "spreading the wealth" (or lack of it) from those who don't pay to those who do. When five dead beats go to the hospital for a band-aid, then you walk into get one, you're going to be charged for six band-aids.

If we stopped trying to make the health care industry eat the costs of those who don't pay, perhaps the costs of doing business would be lower and your middle class families could afford health care.[/QUOTE]

You realize you are just going in circles right. People further to the left like Msut have already countered this argument like 15 million times and you just keep countering it with the same thing. You all just continue to argue in circles day after day.

I will say though that again at least with the left if they are right everyone's covered and costs go down. Your best argument is hey few people are covered but fuck them anyways my costs are down. Again good ole conservatism, its better to have $1,000 extra dollars in every well off/middle class persons pocket then have everyone covered and lots of other benefits like a cleaner environment.

Anyways im out before I spend even more time arguing in circles like the rest of you....one day was enough.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']One of the many reasons heath care costs are so high is due to "spreading the wealth" (or lack of it) from those who don't pay to those who do.[/quote]

Is this supposed to be a response to my post?

Anyhoo...

It would be one of the relatively minor reasons.

There are other reasons which are much more important.

And again for the nth time, we are paying more or less twice what others pay (not to cover everyone) with a system that is inferior in many ways to other countries
where they pay less
.

In contrast you know to your proposal whereas there is no doubt you would change your mind the second you so much as skin your knee.
 
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If you are now going to claim that you or any of your family members have faced the problems that millions of Americans have faced (the ones you call deadbeats and burdens and compare to methheads and wrecked cars) then yes, yes it would be hilarious.

I am certain your family is proud of you of for being able to take a stand against people who get thrown to the wolves because they didn't list a case of acne on a form or those who went bankrupt due to medical bills even though they had insurance.
 
I have no interest in sharing the personal lives of myself or my family on a public forum. If you want the "hilarious" details, then I'm sorry to say, you're out of luck.

I'll rest easy knowing that I support a country where the people are proud, ready, willing and able to stand up for themselves, be responsible for themselves and take care of themselves.

You can go back to sucking at the teat of your government.

When I'm no longer around to take care of me, it won't matter.
What will you do when your government isn't around to take care of you?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I have no interest in sharing the personal lives of myself or my family on a public forum.[/quote]

You are the one who brought it up, spare me.

I'll rest easy knowing that I support a country where the people are proud, ready, willing and able to stand up for themselves, be responsible for themselves and take care of themselves.
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Recently a Republican Congressman (who btw makes a comfortable salary and receives the best medical coverage around) told a 62 year old woman with diabetes "good luck" in finding health insurance until she could receive medicare.

Maybe you and him should hang.
 
[quote name='Msut77']You are the one who brought it up, spare me.[/QUOTE]

No, you did with your ill-informed comments.

[quote name='Msut77']In contrast you know to your proposal whereas there is no doubt you would change your mind the second you so much as skin your knee.[/QUOTE]
 
Dr. Stephen J. Jay of IU claims that 60% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were related to medical bills.

It's kind of a misleading number though. I have no doubt that many people spend so much on crap like McMansions, SUVs, 50" plasmas, etc. that when a huge medical bill comes by there is little choice but to file Chapter 13.

That being said, less money after taxes means less money to blow on crap that all of us love. It should also mean at least a little improvement on that 60% figure.
 
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