Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='Msut77']Private insurance companies have like what 20% overhead?[/QUOTE]

That is only if you include advertising and the additional monies you have to spend on salespeople.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']It was a made-up example, I made that clear. Sorry you have trouble reading.

It's easy to just say "it's a step in the right direction" without actually looking at the facts, which say otherwise (I'm talking about cost alone here).[/QUOTE]

It was abundantly clear that it was a made up example by how incredibly dumb it was. My point was that it was absurd and unsubstantiated.

Sorry you have trouble reading.
 
[quote name='HowStern']It was abundantly clear that it was a made up example by how incredibly dumb it was. My point was that it was absurd and unsubstantiated.

Sorry you have trouble reading.[/QUOTE]

Okay, you want real-life examples, look at the study I quoted. Good enough? You sure didn't look at it when I posted it, since you then proceeded to ignore it completely and continue the misinformation campaign on the subject. Puzzling, really.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Okay, you want real-life examples,[/quote]
Yeah real-life examples would be nice. You told me in your last post in the very same paragraph that your example was made up and that I was ignoring facts. Bit silly, no?
look at the study I quoted. Good enough? You sure didn't look at it when I posted it, since you then proceeded to ignore it completely and continue the misinformation campaign on the subject. Puzzling, really.

You're right. I did ignore it because it was accompanied by a ridiculous self-admittedly made-up example. If you want someone to pay attention to what you have to say then don't talk gibberish.

You're own graph shows 4 cost-saving vs 2 cost-increasing preventative measures. So, only half of preventative measures are more costly by your own link. The rest being QALY figures that open the door to whole other debate.
 
I’ll be danged if I am going to give up my Social Security because of socialism, and I'll be danged if I am going to give up my Medicare because of socialism!

The above was from a small fry con politician at a Michelle Bachman Healthcare forum.

Why yes, he was wearing a top hat.
 
[quote name='Msut77']The above was from a small fry con politician at a Michelle Bachman Healthcare forum.

Why yes, he was wearing a top hat.[/QUOTE]
I'm so glad that the debate has turned from policy to bitching at each other.
 
Moreover, elprincipe, the few examples given that have a high $/QALY ratio are rather extreme examples of "preventative care."

Compare testing all 65yos for diabeetus as opposed to 65yos w/ hypertension. More expensive, yep. Loads of false positives, and loads of wasted tests.

So I think that, in defining "preventative care," I'd agree that we need to find a balance in terms of what it is. It would be foolish to test me every morning for HIV given cost given resources, and given my severe lack of risk factors for the illness. Likewise, testing all 65yos for diabetes as opposed to cases that show risk factors is going to drastically be more expensive - because the larger population of folks being tested are LESS LIKELY to have diabetes, precisely because the high-risk-factor population is already being tested.

But isn't testing the high-risk factor population preventative care? I think it is.

So preventative care doesn't mean testing everyone for everything all the time. But it does mean careful management of resources and testing people for the things that they may have in order to provide them with care that is much cheaper up front than it could be later.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Yeah but surgeries that small aren't the type of thing we are going to spend a lot money on with preventative care. Ya know?

It's the heart diseases and cancers.

And to assume, like whoever did, that for every 1,000 people we will spend only $5000 on surgeries for one of them is nuts considering our obesity levels.[/QUOTE]

oh i know, i deal with this stuff every day. im just saying that the $5000 average makes sense. that being said, using the same argument the 1 in 1000 number is completely absurd. more like 1 in 50.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Moreover, elprincipe, the few examples given that have a high $/QALY ratio are rather extreme examples of "preventative care."

Compare testing all 65yos for diabeetus as opposed to 65yos w/ hypertension. More expensive, yep. Loads of false positives, and loads of wasted tests.

So I think that, in defining "preventative care," I'd agree that we need to find a balance in terms of what it is. It would be foolish to test me every morning for HIV given cost given resources, and given my severe lack of risk factors for the illness. Likewise, testing all 65yos for diabetes as opposed to cases that show risk factors is going to drastically be more expensive - because the larger population of folks being tested are LESS LIKELY to have diabetes, precisely because the high-risk-factor population is already being tested.

But isn't testing the high-risk factor population preventative care? I think it is.

So preventative care doesn't mean testing everyone for everything all the time. But it does mean careful management of resources and testing people for the things that they may have in order to provide them with care that is much cheaper up front than it could be later.[/QUOTE]

Sure, absolutely. I just get a little agitated when people say "preventative care will solve all our problems" from a cost perspective. It won't. People like to think there are easy answers for our fiscal situation, and "preventative care" is being billed by some as a, or even the, silver bullet. That is just irresponsible and political pandering.
 
Preventative care is not a silver bullet, but it can drop costs.

But it has to be coupled with just reigning in costs some how. Office visits and many procedures just cost ridiculous amounts. Again, a doctor shouldn't be charging insurance $150 to spend 2 minutes with a patient asking how they are and just writing them a new prescription when they just came in as they were out of refills, or some other simple question that only took a couple minutes.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Sure, absolutely. I just get a little agitated when people say "preventative care will solve all our problems" from a cost perspective. It won't. People like to think there are easy answers for our fiscal situation, and "preventative care" is being billed by some as a, or even the, silver bullet. That is just irresponsible and political pandering.[/QUOTE]

But I still disagree - *well managed* preventative care will reduce costs. Good on you for the study you cited and the chart you showed, but I would argue that there's kind of a weird coding dichotomy in that chart you showed. Back to the diabetes testing, they compare the cost/benefit gains of testing all 65yos (and not just w/ hypertension) as the "preventative" group and just those w/ hypertension as the "control" (i.e., non-preventative) group. Which appears really strange on the surface, you know? Both attempt to stave off more harmful illnesses.

When I say "well managed preventative care," I mean one that's based on medical research on risk factors, at least in part. When you go to the doctor and they give you basic advice on maintaining your health (exercise more, eat fewer sausages), that's preventative care. But targeted preventative care would identify your risk factors and family history to decide if some tests are necessary and not others.

For instance, given my family history, I'm going to get cancer in my 60's. Virtually assured. If not sooner. So I'm going to want annual tests once I hit a certain age. But if you don't have that background, it's less crucial to do it annually. But I won't need an annual mammogram, on the other hand, so that's money not spent on me.

Management of risk factors and targeted preventative care are important, and, I believe, will reduce costs.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']That is only if you include advertising and the additional monies you have to spend on salespeople.[/QUOTE]

I have heard numbers as high as 31%, one actually hopes at this point that includes advertising etc.
 
I edited my post from pg 60. the administrative costs are definitely higher. I blame all that mental strain I put into researching the validity of sMuts77's post. anyway, the administrative costs of medicaid D.N.E. to the public.Here's something else....

[quote name='tivo']
"How are providers paid by medicaid" from:http://www.nami.org/NAMI-Medicaid_Facts.pdf
"Hospitals, for example, received Medicaid
payments averaging 96% of their costs in 2000,
though that percentage varied widely from state
to state."


so in the above example, hospitals take a 4% hit from every medicaid case they perform (I assume, there's no copay). Other providers aren't paid in full as well. Can someone make sense of this for me? how does this system work? Do the hospitals just put up with it. Does it come out of physcian's salaries or past on to other patients. I mean, the other 96% of medicaid is paid by tax payers but this just seems like crooked dealings coming from the government to make healthcare providers put up with being short changed.[/QUOTE]
 
I actually agree with myke. Preventative care will reduce health care costs. However, in order to optimize this benefit, people *gasp* actually have to go see their doctors on a regular basis which simply doesn't happen due to human nature. I can't tell you how many times I admit patients with strokes who (or their family if the patient can no longer talk) swear up and down that they've been healthy all their lives since "they hadn't needed to see a doctor in over 20 years." Meanwhile, they've had uncontrolled hypertension and undiagnosed diabetes all this time which has no overt symptoms initially until it's too late. Provide incentives to see (or penalties in not seeing) your primary physician at least once a year. Medicare, in its present form, doesn't even cover an annual physical.

Tort reform is also another major issue that hasn't even been touched. You want to emulate national health care systems in Canada and Europe? Fine, then cap damages like they do (in Canada for example, a verdict over a million dollars is unheard of) and implement a "loser pays" system. Even better, have malpractice cases decided by expert panels in conjunction with trial judges rather than have an uninformed jury decide cases. That would immediately save billions of dollars in deterring frivolous lawsuits and malpractice premiums would plummet and the savings would be passed on to patient care. Of course the trial lawyers would lose out and since most legislators started out as lawyers, this won't ever be seriously considered.

Also in regards to tivo's post, keep in mind that statistic probably doesn't take into account that cases often get rejected by government payers. In Massachusetts for example, MassHealth (the Medicaid equivalent) denies almost 1 in 4 claims outright, basically stiffing the doctor and the hospital in those cases. I can't think of many other industries where a service is provided before payment and the payer can unilaterally decide not to pay. Even if you are paid eventually, it takes at least a month to get reimbursed. Hospitals and doctors are squeezed already in the current system, we shouldn't have to be squeezed any further.

I actually wrote a blog entry touching on this in case anyone is interested.
 
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[quote name='dopa345']I actually agree with myke. Preventative care will reduce health care costs. However, in order to optimize this benefit, people *gasp* actually have to go see their doctors on a regular basis which simply doesn't happen due to human nature. I can't tell you how many times I admit patients with strokes who (or their family if the patient can long longer talk) swear up and down that they've been healthy all their lives since "they hadn't needed to see a doctor in over 20 years." Meanwhile, they've had uncontrolled hypertension and undiagnosed diabetes all this time which has no overt symptoms initially until it's too late. Provide incentives to see (or penalties in not seeing) your primary physician at least once a year. Medicare, in its present form, doesn't even cover an annual physical.

Tort reform is also another major issue that hasn't even been touched. You want to emulate national health care systems in Canada and Europe? Fine, then cap damages like they do (in Canada for example, a verdict over a million dollars is unheard of) and implement a "loser pays" system. Even better, have malpractice cases decided by expert panels in conjunction with trial judges rather than have an uninformed jury decide cases. That would immediately save billions of dollars in deterring frivolous lawsuits and malpractice premiums would plummet and the savings would be passed on to patient care. Of course the trial lawyers would lose out and since most legislators started out as lawyers, this won't ever be seriously considered.

Also in regards to tivo's post, keep in mind that statistic probably doesn't take into account that cases often get rejected by government payers. In Massachusetts for example, MassHealth (the Medicaid equivalent) denies almost 1 in 4 claims outright, basically stiffing the doctor and the hospital in those cases. I can't think of many other industries where a service is provided before payment and the payer can unilaterally decide not to pay. Even if you are paid eventually, it takes at least a month to get reimbursed. Hospitals and doctors are squeezed already in the current system, we shouldn't have to be squeezed any further.

I actually wrote a blog entry touching on this in case anyone is interested.[/QUOTE]

good post so I read the blog entry. learned a few things too with the MassHealth (get it together Mitt) and the rehab rule in medicare. But I don't believe preventative medicine would be worth it economically. Lookat the leading causes of preventative death: Smoking, Overweight and Obesity, Alcohol Consumption, infections, toxins, motor vehicle crashes, firearms, STD's, drug use. We've been trying to prevent many of those deaths for Years! Everything from D.A.R.E. to the war on obesity, to sex and alcohol education of the youth and the deaths are as high as ever. programs have put millions into solving these issues but there are no solutions to these problems. If you disagree, read up on the "unconstrained vision" and let me know if that fits you.
 
[quote name='Msut77']I have heard numbers as high as 31%, one actually hopes at this point that includes advertising etc.[/QUOTE]

3.4% profit margin...

One of the fresh spectacles we're likely to enjoy this fall is moral outrage—real or feigned—over health insurance companies that may or may not be rapacious.

President Obama has already singled out insurers as the villains responsible for exorbitant healthcare costs that are bankrupting families and businesses and making care unattainable for millions. Rep. Henry Waxman, chair of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, has asked 52 insurance providers for detailed data on pay and perks for executives, junkets for employees, and other ways they spend the money that comes from premiums paid by policyholders.

[See the industries hurt most by soaring healthcare costs.]

It seems likely that such an ambitious fishing expedition will reel in a few morsels useful for tarring the whole industry. But on the whole, blaming insurance firms for runaway healthcare costs is a weak argument, because the insurance industry isn't all that profitable to start with.

Some critics would like to see a healthcare sector that's entirely nonprofit, but most Americans seem comfortable with the existing system of for-profit healthcare providers, at least at some levels. Otherwise, the majority of Americans wouldn't say they're satisfied with their existing coverage, and there wouldn't be so much discomfort over the idea of government-funded healthcare. So if you're comfortable with the profit motive, the next step is to determine a fair profit margin for companies in the healthcare industry. This is where there's bad news for Obama, Waxman, et al.

[See the trouble with healthcare reform, in numbers.]

Overall, the profit margin for health insurance companies was a modest 3.4 percent over the past year, according to data provided by Morningstar. That ranks 87th out of 215 industries and slightly above the median of 2.2 percent. By this measure, the most profitable industry over the past year has been beverages, with a 25.9 percent profit margin. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows). The worst performer was copper, with a profit margin of minus 56.6 percent.

If you're wondering about Exxon, with its history of gargantuan profits, its profit margin was 9 percent over the past 12 months, according to the research firm Capital IQ. The average for the oil and gas industry overall was 10.2 percent, three times the margin in the health insurance industry. And that's nothing compared with high-fliers like Google—which had a 20.6 percent margin—and Microsoft, at 24.9 percent.

Profit margins basically reflect the percentage of revenue left over after paying salaries, expenses, taxes and lots of other things. So it's possible for firms to pay their executives a lot and still have a low profit margin. That's why Merrill Lynch, as an example, was able to pay huge bonuses to some employees while the company itself lost epic amounts of money.

[See 8 industries that will sit out a recovery.]

Government interrogators are unlikely to find abuses on that scale among health insurers. While the rest of the economy has collapsed, most parts of the healthcare sector have remained reasonably stable. So odds are that any bonuses paid at least went out of profitable firms. With profits in many other industries depressed, health insurance profit margins probably rank higher than they normally would, compared with other industries. And a number of health insurance organizations, such as Kaiser and the Blue Cross plans, are nonprofits. They can still pay high salaries, but since there's no stock or stock options, there are fewer ways for big shots to earn lavish bonuses.

Among the large, for-profit health insurers, profit margins line up with the industry as a whole. UnitedHealthGroup, the biggest health insurer, had a 4.1 percent profit margin over the past 12 months. WellPoint, the next biggest, had a 4 percent profit margin. Aetna, Cigna, and Humana came in below that.

Health insurers turn out to be underperformers compared with the other parts of the healthcare sector. Pharmaceutical companies have a profit margin of 16.4 percent—seventh highest of the 215 industries that Morningstar tracks. Others segments of healthcare with margins well above the median include healthcare information (9.4 percent), home healthcare firms (8.5 percent), medical labs (8.2 percent), and generic drugmakers (6.5 percent).

The big money, in other words, isn't in the insurance industry. If it's anywhere, it's in the pharmaceutical industry. But the Obamanauts appear to have reached a kind of détente with Big Pharma in exchange for that industry's tepid support for some kind of reform. So Obama and his foot soldiers need to look elsewhere for black hats.

[See why your health insurer might have had trouble running "Cash for Clunkers."]

To give a clearer picture of which healthcare firms are earning the most, I've compiled some data from Capital IQ showing net profit margins over the past 12 months for a number of well-known companies. The following list includes the three largest firms in each of five different sectors: biotechnology, drug manufacturers, healthcare plans, healthcare services, and medical equipment. Some of these numbers are sure to be off-putting to Americans who are making sacrifices to pay for healthcare or can't afford it at all. Yet industries like pharma and biotech remain strong job creators that have held up well during the recession, and they represent parts of the global economy where America still enjoys a leading position. If you were Obama, desperate to find a few bright spots in a troubled economy, you might be reluctant to pick on them.

Amgen (biotechnology): Profit margin, 30.6 percent
Gilead Sciences (biotechnology): 37.6 percent
Celgene Corp. (biotechnology): 11.9 percent
Johnson & Johnson (drug manufacturer): 20.8 percent
Pfizer (drug manufacturer): 16.3 percent
GlaxoSmithKline (drug manufacturer): 17.4 percent
Unitedhealth Group (healthcare plans): 4.1 percent
WellPoint (healthcare plans): 4 percent
Aetna (healthcare plans): 3.9 percent
MedcoHealth Solutions (healthcare services): 2.1 percent
Express Scripts (healthcare services): 3.7 percent
Quest Diagnostics (healthcare services): 8.7 percent
Medtronic (medical equipment): 14.9 percent
Baxter International (medical equipment): 17.5 percent
Covidien (medical equipment): 12.3 percent
Sources: Morningstar; Capital IQ. Similar data on the most recently quarterly profit margins for a number of industries and firms are available on the Web at the Yahoo Finance Industry Center.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/flowchart/2009/08/25/why-health-insurers-make-lousy-villains.html
 
The Public Option plan is the only one the CBO has scored entirely.

There has been a lot of blather of how we "can't afford a trillion dollar bill", meanwhile in realityville it is not going to cost that much anyway, the real costs would be about a quarter of that.

Also it is not as if a trillion dollars is some stupendous amount in the context of how much we spend on health care especially over a 10 year period.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']damn liberals, biting off the fingers of the elderly. how low can they go![/QUOTE]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32679571/ns/politics-health_care_reform/
THOUSAND OAKS, Calif. - California authorities say a clash between opponents and supporters of health care reform ended with one man biting off another man's finger.Ventura County Sheriff's Capt. Frank O'Hanlon says about 100 people demonstrating in favor of health care reforms rallied Wednesday night on a street corner. One protester walked across the street to confront about 25 counter-demonstrators.
O'Hanlon says the man got into an argument and fist fight, during which he bit off the left pinky of a 65-year-old man who opposed health care reform.
At this rate, we will have riots in the streets by December!
 
^^ compares health care to fire departments.

that show me that he has no idea how fire departments work, let alone health care.

pretty bad argument Msut. I understand why you didn't accompany the link with any of your own "thoughts".
 
Another good Newsweek article on lies about the health care plan.

The Five Biggest Lies in the Health Care Debate

By Sharon Begley | NEWSWEEK

Published Aug 29, 2009

From the magazine issue dated Sep 7, 2009

To the credit of opponents of health-care reform, the lies and exaggerations they're spreading are not made up out of whole cloth—which makes the misinformation that much more credible. Instead, because opponents demand that everyone within earshot (or e-mail range) look, say, "at page 425 of the House bill!," the lies take on a patina of credibility. Take the claim in one chain e-mail that the government will have electronic access to everyone's bank account, implying that the Feds will rob you blind. The 1,017-page bill passed by the House Ways and Means Committee does call for electronic fund transfers—but from insurers to doctors and other providers. There is zero provision to include patients in any such system. Five other myths that won't die:

You'll have no choice in what health benefits you receive.
The myth that a "health choices commissioner" will decide what benefits you get seems to have originated in a July 19 post at blog.flecksoflife.com, whose homepage features an image of Obama looking like Heath Ledger's Joker. In fact, the House bill sets up a health-care exchange—essentially a list of private insurers and one government plan—where people who do not have health insurance through their employer or some other source (including small businesses) can shop for a plan, much as seniors shop for a drug plan under Medicare part D. The government will indeed require that participating plans not refuse people with preexisting conditions and offer at least minimum coverage, just as it does now with employer-provided insurance plans and part D. The requirements will be floors, not ceilings, however, in that the feds will have no say in how generous private insurance can be.

No chemo for older Medicare patients.
The threat that Medicare will give cancer patients over 70 only end-of-life counseling and not chemotherapy—as a nurse at a hospital told a roomful of chemo patients, including the uncle of a NEWSWEEK reporter—has zero basis in fact. It's just a vicious form of the rationing scare. The House bill does not use the word "ration." Nor does it call for cost-effectiveness research, much less implementation—the idea that "it isn't cost-effective to give a 90-year-old a hip replacement."

The general claim that care will be rationed under health-care reform is less a lie and more of a non-disprovable projection (as is Howard Dean's assertion that health-care reform will not lead to rationing, ever). What we can say is that there is de facto rationing under the current system, by both Medicare and private insurance. No plan covers everything, but coverage decisions "are now made in opaque ways by insurance companies," says Dr. Donald Berwick of the Institute for Healthcare Improvement.

A related myth is that health-care reform will be financed through $500 billion in Medicare cuts. This refers to proposed decreases in Medicare increases. That is, spending is on track to reach $803 billion in 2019 from today's $422 billion, and that would be dialed back. Even the $560 billion in reductions (which would be spread over 10 years and come from reducing payments to private Medicare advantage plans, reducing annual increases in payments to hospitals and other providers, and improving care so seniors are not readmitted to a hospital) is misleading: the House bill also gives Medicare $340 billion more over a decade. The money would pay docs more for office visits, eliminate copays and deductibles for preventive care, and help close the "doughnut hole" in the Medicare drug benefit, explains Medicare expert Tricia Neuman of the Kaiser Family Foundation.

Illegal immigrants will get free health insurance.
The House bill doesn't give anyone free health care (though under a 1986 law illegals who can't pay do get free emergency care now, courtesy of all us premium paying customers or of hospitals that have to eat the cost). Will they be eligible for subsidies to buy health insurance? The House bill says that "individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States" will not be allowed to receive subsidies.

The claim that taxpayers will wind up subsidizing health insurance for illegal immigrants has its origins in the defeat of an amendment, offered in July by Republican Rep. Dean Heller of Nevada, to require those enrolling in a public plan or seeking subsidies to purchase private insurance to have their citizenship verified. Flecksoflife.com claimed on July 19 that "HC [health care] will be provided 2 all non US citizens, illegal or otherwise." Rep. Steve King of Iowa spread the claim in a USA Today op-ed on Aug. 20, calling the explicit prohibition on such coverage "functionally meaningless" absent mandatory citizenship checks, and it's now gone viral. Can we say that none of the estimated 11.9 million illegal immigrants will ever wangle insurance subsidies through identity fraud, pretending to be a citizen? You can't prove a negative, but experts say that Medicare—the closest thing to the proposals in the House bill—has no such problem.

Death panels will decide who lives.
On July 16 Betsy McCaughey, a former lieutenant governor of New York and darling of the right, said on Fred Thompson's radio show that "on page 425," "Congress would make it mandatory…that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner, how to decline nutrition." Sarah Palin coined "death panels" in an Aug. 7 Facebook post.

This lie springs from a provision in the House bill to have Medicare cover optional counseling on end-of-life care for any senior who requests it. This means that any patient, terminally ill or not, can request a special consultation with his or her physician about ventilators, feeding tubes, and other measures. Thus the House bill expands Medicare coverage, but without forcing anyone into end-of-life counseling.

The death-panels claim nevertheless got a new lease on life when Jim Towey, director of the White House Office of Faith-Based Initiatives under George W. Bush, claimed in an Aug. 18 Wall Street Journal op-ed that a 1997 workbook from the Department of Veterans Affairs pushes vets to "hurry up and die." In fact, the thrust of the 51-page book, which the VA pulled from circulation in 2007, is letting "loved ones" and "health care providers" "know your wishes." Readers are asked to decide what they believe, including that "life is sacred and has meaning, no matter what its quality," and that "my life should be prolonged as long as it can...using any means possible." But the workbook also asks if readers "believe there are some situations in which I would not want treatments to keep me alive." Opponents of health-care reform have selectively cited this passage as evidence the government wants to kill the old and the sick.

The government will set doctors' wages.
This, too, seems to have originated on the Flecksoflife blog on July 19. But while page 127 of the House bill says that physicians who choose to accept patients in the public insurance plan would receive 5 percent more than Medicare pays for a given service, doctors can refuse to accept such patients, and, even if they participate in a public plan, they are not salaried employees of it any more than your doctor today is an employee of, say, Aetna. "Nobody is saying we want the doctors working for the government; that's completely false," says Amitabh Chandra, professor of public policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.

To be sure, there are also honest and principled objections to health-care reform. Some oppose a requirement that everyone have health insurance as an erosion of individual liberty. That's a debatable position, but an honest one. And many are simply scared out of their wits about what health-care reform will mean for them. But when fear and loathing hijack the brain, anything becomes believable—even that health-care reform is unconstitutional. To disprove that, check the commerce clause: Article I, Section 8.

With Katie Connolly, Claudia Kalb, and Ian Yarett

Find this article at http://www.newsweek.com/id/214254
 
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If there are provisions in the proposed plan to basically make it impossible to change after it has passed (as I have heard), then that's reason enough not to pass it, imo.
 
No.

I've had several people tell me that there is wording in the bill that essentially tries to 'lock' the bill from every being modified, or at least make it extremely difficult to modify.

I don't necessarily believe it, because I haven't had the time (or care) to find out for myself. But the fact that so many people have said it have made me raise an eyebrow, for now.
 
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/26953.html

Full text of Obama's speech for those interested. Just gave it a read as I had a prior engagement that kept me for watching last night.

Solid speech.

Are people really that opposed to a public option IF it's done in the format he outlined?

-Not funded with tax payer money, must work totally off income from premiums
-Prices lower by being ran as a non-profit, reducing waste, not having huge salaries for executives etc.
-Likely to only be taken advantage of by 5% of Americans
-Requirements in the bill for other spending cuts if the plan doesn't pay for itself as intended

There doesn't seem like much to be worried about there, or anything worth screaming "socialism!" over.

Plus all the other good parts of the plan putting more regulations on all insurance in terms on not denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, not dropping people (or watering down coverage) of people who get sick, not allowing caps on how much can be paid out in a year or life time etc.

Any how, for or against the plan I encourage everyone to write their congressman and senators rather than just posting about it online.
 
Two issues there.

Frst:
Likely to only be taken advantage of by 5% of Americans


incorrect.. if small business know they can cancel and get their employees to get on this system, they will.. look at all the abuse with food stamps, ebt, etc That wil happen and it will be more than 5%.

Second:

Requirements in the bill for other spending cuts if the plan doesn't pay for itself as intended

This needs to be elaborated a bit.. cuts on what? The medical services? Some other place? Makes no sense. You cut the medical services you are not staying competitive. The rates will increase exponentially after the first couple years, once they have data to support the necessary increases. It happens all the time with new carriers, "buying up business" so to say. Low the first couple years, then you need to adjust. This happens even on the HMO not for profit carriers, it will happen here.



No prex will most likely pass. ... the downside is higher initial premiums... they have to cover their losses somehow. look to Floridas max group rate up of 15% idea and how well that went over... it increased the base rates.

No lifetime max is crazy. First off thats there on all policies, or most. Its something along the lines of 3-7million per insured person (not pooled for the family). Its pretty hard to reach that. I have seen a 1,000,000 claim once. That was with a guy that was taking shots in the range of $60,000 a pop... he passed, it was slightly over 1,100,000 before network discounts for the total bill. You must remember there are discounts for having the insurance a $50,000 charge will most likely get dropped to 25-35,000 after discounts.

He talked about mandates on everyone taking coverage, then turned around and said there would be x outs for various classes, and small businesses.... well then its not everyone is it now... you want to make the poor buy it (subsidized), but allow small business an exemption?
 
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