Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='Snake2715']
He talked about mandates on everyone taking coverage, then turned around and said there would be x outs for various classes, and small businesses.... well then its not everyone is it now... you want to make the poor buy it (subsidized), but allow small business an exemption?[/QUOTE]

My reading of that part was that there would be hardship waivers for BOTH individuals and small businesses who truly couldn't afford coverage even with subsidies. But it wasn't very clear.
 
the thing is no one saves, and no one is going to buy it if they have more money from less taxes...

They will wait till their sick and go to the ER. Its like this guy is saying we shouldnt have ot carry auto insurance. BS. People will avoid it, hit someone and then drag it out in court, while the victim suffers.

It needs to be mandated. Just like children have to go to school and you need insurance on your car. You need it on your health. How many healthy people have had heart attacks.
 
[quote name='Snake2715']the thing is no one saves, and no one is going to buy it if they have more money from less taxes...

They will wait till their sick and go to the ER. Its like this guy is saying we shouldnt have ot carry auto insurance. BS. People will avoid it, hit someone and then drag it out in court, while the victim suffers.

It needs to be mandated. Just like children have to go to school and you need insurance on your car. You need it on your health. How many healthy people have had heart attacks.[/QUOTE]
I was actually trying to point out two things.
1. How cheap emergency insurance was in 1960. ($15 a year!)
2.Plus at 5:35
"Nobody cares what the procedures cost, because nobody is paying for it. And the doctors know this, the hospitals know this, there's no control on costs. People pay whatever it is."
 
Very true, they have no idea what the care costs, and most have no idea how big of a portion their employer pays. Ask someone about cobra, and you will most likely hear that its expensive. Well no shit, its the full cost (+2% admin) of the health insurance. Just cause you have been paying a small portion doesnt mean it got expensive all of a sudden, it means you are not getting any help now.
 
Some thoughts after watching the presidents sales pitch:

- Isn't it extremely disingenuous to hammer away at how there are so many states with healthcare monopolies with few insurance companies, when trying to make a case for government oversight - when the entire reason that is the case is GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION that allowed it to happen?

- I have yet to read/hear/see the Obama/Democratic party argument for why allowing cross-state insurance is a bad idea and they won't support it. What's their argument? Why not allow all insurance companies to compete against each other in the country?

-It felt very uncomfortable to watch him, several times, throw a bone to Republicans and talk as if he really wanted to extend a hand of compromise, and then seconds later toss age-old t-bone steaks to the rabid democratic horde, sending them into a frenzy.
 
1) elaborate

2) see your point #1. if monopolies exist, how does interstate commerce resolve that issue? (never mind that interstate commerce doesn't even begin to solve those who do not have coverage, those who can not afford coverage, those whose employers don't provide coverage, or how much coverage is offered - or really anything, actually).

3) wha?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']1) elaborate

2) see your point #1. if monopolies exist, how does interstate commerce resolve that issue? (never mind that interstate commerce doesn't even begin to solve those who do not have coverage, those who can not afford coverage, those whose employers don't provide coverage, or how much coverage is offered - or really anything, actually).

3) wha?[/QUOTE]
None of this even matters right now. We don't need health care reform. It won't help anything. It's like putting a defective band-aid on a bullet wound. We need a complete reform of this country. We need a productive capacity. On this health care issue, we need to look at the big picture. People not being able to afford health insurance is a symptom of a larger problem. People aren't making enough to get by anymore. The good high paying jobs are drying up. All that is left is service jobs. We are a nation where 2/3s of us are overweight. We don't eat healthy anymore, which is causing many of our health problems. Our money is quickly becoming worthless, and most of it is IMAGINARY! Through the system of fractional reserve banking, and the boom and bust cycle, trillions are created out of thin air! We've been on top of the world for too long, and now the bottom is falling out. We need a productive capacity again. How is it that in the '60s health insurance cost $15 a year, and now it is in the hundreds of dollars a MONTH? We've lost our way. Our coins (≥10cents)used to be made out of silver, and our pennies out of copper. Now they are made out of cupronickel, and zinc respectively. Our money has lost it's value, our labor force is getting paid less and less, and a large amount of our jobs are shipping overseas. We've got people in Detroit who can't afford food, so they have to grow it in their yards. Six million people (or more) will go into foreclosure this year. It isn't just the availability of health care that is falling apart, it's the entire country.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']My reading of that part was that there would be hardship waivers for BOTH individuals and small businesses who truly couldn't afford coverage even with subsidies. But it wasn't very clear.[/QUOTE]

I truly don't understand why people think it matters that employers wouldn't "provide" their associates with health care. There isn't any reason for why an employer should be responsible for your health care any more than they should buy your groceries.

Our health care system is fubar and quite frankly drags down other parts of the economy with it, a strong public option is a step in the right direction.
 
[quote name='Msut77']
Our health care system is fubar and quite frankly drags down other parts of the economy with it, [/QUOTE]
It's actually the other way around.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']None of this even matters right now. We don't need health care reform. It won't help anything. It's like putting a defective band-aid on a bullet wound. We need a complete reform of this country. We need a productive capacity. On this health care issue, we need to look at the big picture. People not being able to afford health insurance is a symptom of a larger problem. People aren't making enough to get by anymore. The good high paying jobs are drying up. All that is left is service jobs. We are a nation where 2/3s of us are overweight. We don't eat healthy anymore, which is causing many of our health problems. Our money is quickly becoming worthless, and most of it is IMAGINARY! Through the system of fractional reserve banking, and the boom and bust cycle, trillions are created out of thin air! We've been on top of the world for too long, and now the bottom is falling out. We need a productive capacity again. How is it that in the '60s health insurance cost $15 a year, and now it is in the hundreds of dollars a MONTH? We've lost our way. Our coins (≥10cents)used to be made out of silver, and our pennies out of copper. Now they are made out of cupronickel, and zinc respectively. Our money has lost it's value, our labor force is getting paid less and less, and a large amount of our jobs are shipping overseas. We've got people in Detroit who can't afford food, so they have to grow it in their yards. Six million people (or more) will go into foreclosure this year. It isn't just the availability of health care that is falling apart, it's the entire country.[/QUOTE]

You've hit on a large number of genuine problems faced by Americans here. How you get from this level of clarity to "abolish the federal reserve" and "support a laissez-faire economy" as solutions is way the fuck beyond me, though.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You've hit on a large number of genuine problems faced by Americans here. How you get from this level of clarity to "abolish the federal reserve" [/QUOTE]
The Federal Reserve allows for everything that is wrong with government to happen. Do you really think Bush would have been able to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and start his own little crusade if he had to raise taxes to pay for it? The only way countries are able to start huge wars, and spend trillions of dollars is through inflating their currency. If they raised taxes to pay for these schemes people would be rioting in the streets. They have a printing press that has allowed them to print as much money as they want to. They use that for what they want. Wars, bailouts, whatever. Meanwhile, the ones who are hurt the most are the poor, and middle class. Inflation hits them the worst because they have to spend so much on essentials. They can't keep up with it. Then there is the whole fractional-reserve system of banking which creates money out of thin air. It's a pyramid scheme! Don't people see that? When you let finance capital take over your country, it's over.
and "support a laissez-faire economy" as solutions is way the fuck beyond me, though.
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The market seems to solve many problems better than the government. Without the government propping up these major corporations, the little guy might actually have a chance. Also, why is it that we let these huge compnaies have monopolies over industry? That only breeds corruption.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']large corporations and monopolies are the natural conclusion of your anti-government free-market philosophy. how can you not see that?[/QUOTE]
If this does happen, we will deal with them. Break them up, whatever.
"What's bad for Wall Street is good for Main Street."-Gerald Celente
That's what we need to realize. Huge corporations don't help this country. Small businesses do.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']If this does happen, we will deal with them. Break them up, whatever.
"What's bad for Wall Street is good for Main Street."-Gerald Celente
That's what we need to realize. Huge corporations don't help this country. Small businesses do.[/QUOTE]

That's no longer a free market if you break up monopolies. Now, I understand how silly that sounds as a sentence by itself, but let me put it this way: you no longer advocate for low-government, anti-interventionist policies when you want to put a cap on the size of a corporation.

So you want to bust up Ma Bell. What would separate you, then, from someone like myself who supports a maximum wage in the US? Same idea, right? A cap on wealth, a cap on power.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']1) elaborate[/quote]
Simply talking about how Obama spent a good deal of his talk pointing out the monopolies in many states that health care company's have. He pointed them out as examples of why we need reform (i.e. government involvement) - but what he fails to mention or even seem to understand is that the current system of 2-3 health care company's running the show in each state was caused directly by government regulation preventing national health care company's.

2) see your point #1. if monopolies exist, how does interstate commerce resolve that issue? (never mind that interstate commerce doesn't even begin to solve those who do not have coverage, those who can not afford coverage, those whose employers don't provide coverage, or how much coverage is offered - or really anything, actually).
Click to expand...

It may not resolve it, but I don't know that it's every really been tried either. I am not saying interstate commerce will fix things outright, but it could be part of the fix. It seems to me that if you change the laws, suddenly a state with 2 big healthcare company's bullying everyone has to compete with dozens of others - how is that not good?

The point is, healthcare providers have never really had to deal with competition a whole lot because of the laws keeping them inside states. Why not bust those laws as PART of a healthcare reform? It's especially silly to think that we should keep it the way it is and just let them compete with a government option.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Some thoughts after watching the presidents sales pitch:

- Isn't it extremely disingenuous to hammer away at how there are so many states with healthcare monopolies with few insurance companies, when trying to make a case for government oversight - when the entire reason that is the case is GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION that allowed it to happen?

- I have yet to read/hear/see the Obama/Democratic party argument for why allowing cross-state insurance is a bad idea and they won't support it. What's their argument? Why not allow all insurance companies to compete against each other in the country?

-It felt very uncomfortable to watch him, several times, throw a bone to Republicans and talk as if he really wanted to extend a hand of compromise, and then seconds later toss age-old t-bone steaks to the rabid democratic horde, sending them into a frenzy.[/QUOTE]

You guys country wide competition is reality. Most of my carriers work in most of the states. Some dont work in certain states, but most have 15-35 states or more they work in. The difference is, like I said since i first posted in here, each state has its own set of rules.. So companies have to come up with new plans (administration) and then the agents have to be licensed per state they sell in, knowing these various rules.

They need to make federal mandates and open it up as the ruling for each state. No further state mandates allowed. That alone with cut administration, stop employees frustration as the plans would all have to have certain minimums. Also carriers would be able to easily enter other states.

The way it is now is a mess. Just like gas and emissions in various states, counties, cities etc.. Each place has a different fuel blend required, which up costs for all involved. When a fuel carrier has to carry 40+ blends per state... same as with health carriers.

Standardized is the first step.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']That's no longer a free market if you break up monopolies.
Now, I understand how silly that sounds as a sentence by itself, but let me put it this way: you no longer advocate for low-government, anti-interventionist policies when you want to put a cap on the size of a corporation.[/quote]
I don't want to put a cap on the size of a company. I want to make sure that companies are not cornering the market, and creating a monopoly because they have more resources than a local store. A free market needs to ensure that there is a chance for competition. We can't let monopolies corner the market and take everything over. If that means breaking up some companies, so be it. A free market needs competition.
So you want to bust up Ma Bell. What would separate you, then, from someone like myself who supports a maximum wage in the US? Same idea, right? A cap on wealth, a cap on power.
Click to expand...
I don't want a maximum wage. That's a tad bit ridiculous. If a company is dumb enough to pay you $500 million a year, great. Good luck making profits off a ridiculous overhead.
 
More on prevention:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/31/AR2009083103854.html
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...preventive-care-will-raise-not-cut-costs.html

[quote name='Congressional Budget Office']Although different types of preventive care have different effects on spending, the evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall[/quote]

And a good article to share:
http://reason.com/news/show/135976.html

You might not agree with him (I disagree on a number of things), but he's a straight talker.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']one guy whose association to the seiu was not demonstrated = the entire seiu.[/QUOTE]
I know, but they should have apologized for their idiot members who beat up the guy.
 
nwo1en.jpg


Hey, they're wrestlers. Maybe they can be President Ventura's cabinet. State of the Union Ladder match!
 
[quote name='UncleBob']45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul[/QUOTE]

I consider quitting my job every day the sun rises.

60% of Americans would consider quitting their current jobs.

http://www.salary.com/advice/layouthtmls/advl_display_nocat_Ser383_Par575.html

Here's the thing:

If many doctors quit, their cute little AMA union will be busted.

The government can also restock the supply of doctors by offering free medical school with a commitment to work in the US for Y number of years for X amount of money.

Oh and there are hundreds of countries around the world with doctors. Open the doors and let the brain drain begin.

I'm sure they're not as good as American doctors, but they're a damn sight better than no doctor.
 
intersting poll considering a poll was released yesterday stating 60+% of doctors support a public option.

Would post the link but writting from my phone.

Also is anyone familiar with Dr. Aaron Carroll? Hes a frequent guest on a Sirius talkshow (stand up with Pete Dominic on POTUS) and has been on The Colbert report apparently . Hes a pediatric Dr who now studies health care policy at Indiana Univ. http://mdcarroll.com . He provides some rational reasoning why single payer is more efficient and better compared to private industry.
 
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[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']
Oh and there are hundreds of countries around the world with doctors. Open the doors and let the brain drain begin.

I'm sure they're not as good as American doctors, but they're a damn sight better than no doctor.[/QUOTE]
South Africa is ours, god dammit.
 
[quote name='homeland']intersting poll considering a poll was released yesterday stating 60+% of doctors support a public option.

Would post the link but writting from my phone.

Also is anyone familiar with Dr. Aaron Carroll? Hes a frequent guest on a Sirius talkshow (stand up with Pete Dominic on POTUS) and has been on The Colbert report apparently . Hes a pediatric Dr who now studies health care policy at Indiana Univ. Will post a link to his blog when i get back from lunch. He provides some rational reasoning why single payer is more proficient and better compared to private industry.[/QUOTE]

I have several friends, that I consider mostly conservative, that believe very strongly in a single payer system. I've had many discussions and have heard all the arguments for why it would be a better idea. I have no doubt that, in many respects, it would be better for certain people compared to what they have now. The problem is, for many people, it could very likely be worse (on taxes and service provided).
 
If you think doctors will walk away from lucrative professions while carrying close to a million in debt (school loans, massive mortgages, etc.), then you're a bigger fool than I thought.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I have several friends, that I consider mostly conservative, that believe very strongly in a single payer system. I've had many discussions and have heard all the arguments for why it would be a better idea. I have no doubt that, in many respects, it would be better for certain people compared to what they have now. The problem is, for many people, it could very likely be worse (on taxes and service provided).[/QUOTE]

I'll never say this again, but ...

We need the testimonial of a Frenchman.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'll never say this again, but ...

We need the testimonial of a Frenchman.[/QUOTE]

while not a man..would my french wife be close enough?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']The government can also restock the supply of doctors by offering free medical school with a commitment to work in the US for Y number of years for X amount of money.[/quote]

Perhaps - but the school won't be "free" - it'll be taxpayer funded.

Oh and there are hundreds of countries around the world with doctors. Open the doors and let the brain drain begin.
Click to expand...

The doctors already do that. That's why so many countries are already short-staffed and have huge waiting lists...
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Perhaps - but the school won't be "free" - it'll be taxpayer funded.[/QUOTE]

But we'll get years in return. It's called an exchange of services.

And just to highlight the article that msut just posted. A woman died because she couldn't get insurance with her pre-existing condition. She died at 32 when she could've lived a long normal life is she had just been given coverage.

I guess she should've just accepted responsibility and paid out of pocket, right? Is that going to be the conservative response to another tragic story?

Think about it when you hold onto that extra couple bucks out of your paycheck. Take it out of your wallet and ask yourself whether it's worth someone's life. Maybe it's worth a dozen lives.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Do you consider the Quebecois acceptable?[/QUOTE]

A Frenchmen who crossed a large body of water? Doesn't sound very French.

However, the testimony of the Frenchwoman would be acceptable if not preferred.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']A Frenchmen who crossed a large body of water? Doesn't sound very French.
[/QUOTE]
What about St. Pierre and Michelon?
 
[quote name='depascal22']Think about it when you hold onto that extra couple bucks out of your paycheck. Take it out of your wallet and ask yourself whether it's worth someone's life. Maybe it's worth a dozen lives.[/QUOTE]

We won't go into my personal giving, because, quite frankly, it's no one's business but mine and my wife's.

But the huge difference between the two is that I get to pick which charities my money goes to. I don't want to fund ACORN? Great! I can give my money to St. Jude's.

Don't get that choice with the government. They force my money away from me at gunpoint and pick and choose the winners based on whatever wacky criteria they can come up with - crazy wars in the middle east or bridges to no where in Alaska...

Oh, as far as Msut's article goes, how come whenever someone brings in a story about an individual in a country with socialized health care where the individual died because of the long waits or rationing, etc., we're told that's an isolated thing and anecdotal stories don't count... but Msut's story should change all of our cold hearts...
 
That's fair, UncleBob.

OK. Let's take all the personal stories out. It comes down to this. There are thousands of Americans that go through each day with the constant fear of losing everything because they can't pay medical bills.

As much as you'd like to think that charities help these people, they don't. A large percentage (I'd say higher than 80% but I'm not sure) only deal with children. Who gives a damn about person in their 20s? They're not cute and adorable. People don't give money to them.

Churches don't have enough money to serve everyone. Having the government step in will (hopefully) even the playing field. EVERYONE in America will have a chance to get decent medical care without cashing out 401(k)s, foreclosing on mortgages, and maxing out credit cards.

Again, no one has a problem that government takes money at gun point for police, fire, and education. Why not healthcare? It just seems hypocritical that most people take advantage of free public schooling but get their panties in a twist about health care.

And please stop bringing up ACORN. Americans pay alot of money to very bad people every day. Wanksters are the least of our problems. I've still seen zero evidence of an ACTUAL child smuggling ring spearheaded by ACORN.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']We won't go into my personal giving, because, quite frankly, it's no one's business but mine and my wife's.[/quote]

Do you buy private health insurance or are you covered under medicaid or some other government plan?

Medicaid is practically walmarts health care plan, so yes this is an actual question.

Don't get that choice with the government.
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You could move to a different country.

They force my money away from me at gunpoint and pick and choose the winners based on...
Click to expand...

Not like I haven't heard libertarian prattle before...

Oh, as far as Msut's article goes, how come whenever someone brings in a story about an individual in a country with socialized health care where the individual died because of the long waits or rationing, etc., we're told that's an isolated thing and anecdotal stories don't count... but Msut's story should change all of our cold hearts...
Click to expand...

Well for one thing, disseminating the story of one photogenic white girl (the media gold standard) is easier than listing every one of the tens of thousands who die each year (I have seen estimates as high 45 thousand). And if you are admitting that this country rations health care then you already lose whatever argument you think you are making.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Again, no has a problem that government takes money at gun point for police, fire, and education. Why not healthcare? It just seems hypocritical that most people take advantage of free public schooling but get their panties in a twist about health care.[/QUOTE]

For the record, I don't take advantage of "Free public schooling". ;)

Anywhoo, I'm not 100% against the reform of the current health care system. I just have three things that I'd like to see:

1.) No mandate for individual coverage.
2.) No raising taxes to cover spending.
3.) No deficit spending to cover spending.

I don't think those are unreasonable.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Do you buy private health insurance or are you covered under medicaid or some other government plan?

Medicaid is practically walmarts health care plan, so yes this is an actual question.[/quote]
I have private health coverage outside of Walmart's offerings.

You could move to a different country.
Click to expand...
On that same token, you could move to a different country that offers socalized health care.
 
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