Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='Msut77']So is there a problem with having one less roadblock in the way?[/QUOTE]

Nope, but stop saying that people having insurance will be the beginning of early detection, and the end of "oops too late".

From what I hear alot of people had insurance before this bill and early detection was still not being taken advantage of by the masses.

Oh and you obviously didn't say that to my knowledge but I was just letting you know the context of my post.
 
Early detection will require a regulation that people must get a physical every X number of years (can vary by age, more frequent as you get older).

Maybe not require, but offer a premium break for people who keep up with the physical schedule.
 
My opinion: Obama's health care plan is flawed, primarily because it's still too scared of socialism. Give everyone quality health care. Don't try and tell me we can't afford it. Somehow, a large portion of the rest of the developed world (and even some of the not-so-developed) can afford it. Why can't we?

Because of the wars? Well, end the war on the Iraqi front at the least. We finished that, from what I recall. Concentrate on Afghanistan, but concentrate more on the home front. We're more important than our enemies.

While we're at it, tax the highest class citizens a little bit extra. They stop being the bad guys, because they're now paying for your national security and your health care.

On the note of "people having insurance being the beginning of earth detection", well, I'd say making sure our countrymen are healthy is as good a beginning as any other.

On the note that "early detection is still not taken advantage of by the masses", well, that's true. Unfortunately, a solution to that is nothing short of immense government interference (i.e. mandating doctor visits) and no one wants that.
 
Giving everyone insurance is all well and good but it doesn't help if there aren't enough doctors to care for those patients. The primary care physician is a dying breed. Physician salaries have been in steady decline for the past 10 years. The government's refusal to fix Medicare's flawed reimbursement system by kicking the can down the road time and time again is getting really old, really fast. So the end result are primary care docs, already at the lowest end of the pay scale are just fed up and retiring early or cutting out Medicare entirely because of the uncertainty. Physicians in training are going to see the handwriting on the wall and facing a six-figure debt are going to have no choice but to become specialists just to make ends meet.

We're already seeing this in Massachusetts. The average wait for a primary care doctor in Massachusetts is almost 2 months. I just came off call and about half of patients I saw have insurance but no primary care physicians to handle their follow-up. Massachusetts is giving us a glimpse into the future of universal government run health coverage insurance is not the answer yet we're still plodding along in that direction. Hope people don't mind seeing nurses and physician assistants as their primary care providers since that's the direction we're headed.
 
[quote name='dorino']So pay doctors what they deserve and encourage careers in primary care.

Easy solution. Again, we have the money.[/QUOTE]

More than enough, really. We pay at least double what anyone else in the world pays, despite having the worst health care in the industrialized world. And silly me can't help but view those two issues as somehow related.
 
[quote name='dorino']So pay doctors what they deserve and encourage careers in primary care.

Easy solution. Again, we have the money.[/QUOTE]

Just ignore dopa, at least until he comes up with some of them there solutions he promised us months ago.
 
[quote name='tony72']More than enough, really. We pay at least double what anyone else in the world pays, despite having the worst health care in the industrialized world. And silly me can't help but view those two issues as somehow related.[/QUOTE]
explain how we have the worst health care in the industrialized world. Ill correct you, we have the best health care in the entire world, but access to it is a problem, and this bill didnt solve it.
 
[quote name='tony72']More than enough, really. We pay at least double what anyone else in the world pays, despite having the worst health care in the industrialized world. And silly me can't help but view those two issues as somehow related.[/QUOTE]

Yep, I don't know that pay has to go up tremendously.

What would help are:

1. Student loan forgiveness for doctors who go into primary care.

2. Malpractice reform so their insurance premiums aren't eating up so much of their incomes.

Those both offset the need to pay them more as it puts a lot more of their paychecks into their pockets.

Personally, I don't think the primary care situation is that bad. I live in a major city and was able to call my doctor a week or so ago and get a same day appointment for a sick visit, and usually get routine checkups (non-urgent) within a week or so. Just a matter of finding a doctor that doesn't over book.
 
[quote name='Knoell']a whole lot more people are like that for a whole lot more that could be wrong with them. Again people just having insurance does not even mean they will go to the doctor once a year.

And on the whole family doctor thing, was it just me or was there insufficient family doctors before we added 30 million people to their patient lists?[/QUOTE]
At my doctor's office, besides the other doctor practicing there, they also employ a nurse practitioner. She can handle most things, especially the more common things like simple bacteria infections, allergies, etc... There are also any number of clinics going up around the country which employ practitioners like this. For a lack of primary care doctors, this is compensation. Let the doctors handle the more serious cases while they handle the others.

If you say most people won't go to the doctor even once a year, then wouldn't that actually help the second problem?
 
[quote name='Knoell']explain how we have the worst health care in the industrialized world. Ill correct you, we have the best health care in the entire world, but access to it is a problem, and this bill didnt solve it.[/QUOTE]
We have one of the worst health care systems because of the availability. That's part of it.

And the bill didn't solve it because Republicans forced a bastardized version to go through. God forbid we pay a little extra so other people don't die. TAXES ARE BAD!
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yep, I don't know that pay has to go up tremendously.

What would help are:

1. Student loan forgiveness for doctors who go into primary care.

2. Malpractice reform so their insurance premiums aren't eating up so much of their incomes.

Those both offset the need to pay them more as it puts a lot more of their paychecks into their pockets.

Personally, I don't think the primary care situation is that bad. I live in a major city and was able to call my doctor a week or so ago and get a same day appointment for a sick visit, and usually get routine checkups (non-urgent) within a week or so. Just a matter of finding a doctor that doesn't over book.[/QUOTE]

+1, only thing I would add is to tell tony to just ignore knoell as he has zero idea what he is talking about.
 
[quote name='dorino']We have one of the worst health care systems because of the availability. That's part of it.

And the bill didn't solve it because Republicans forced a bastardized version to go through. God forbid we pay a little extra so other people don't die. TAXES ARE BAD![/QUOTE]

Knoell has zero idea what he is taking about.

Just ignore him.
 
[quote name='Clak']At my doctor's office, besides the other doctor practicing there, they also employ a nurse practitioner. She can handle most things, especially the more common things like simple bacteria infections, allergies, etc... There are also any number of clinics going up around the country which employ practitioners like this. For a lack of primary care doctors, this is compensation. Let the doctors handle the more serious cases while they handle the others.

If you say most people won't go to the doctor even once a year, then wouldn't that actually help the second problem?[/QUOTE]

Explain to me the difference between a nurse practitioner and a doctor, and then explain to me why a nurse practitioner should be diagnosing anything without a second look from a doctor. Last time I saw a nurse practitioner all she could do was refer me to specialists for minor problems such as heartburn, and a slight pain in my lower side. That gets pricey for insurance companies, but who cares they deserve to pay for EVERYTHING since we pay a 100 bucks a month to them.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell has zero idea what he is taking about.

Just ignore him.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be having a problem interacting with people on this forum, you are almost as bad as politicians, anytime someone disagrees with you, discredit them.
 
[quote name='dorino']We have one of the worst health care systems because of the availability. That's part of it.

And the bill didn't solve it because Republicans forced a bastardized version to go through. God forbid we pay a little extra so other people don't die. TAXES ARE BAD![/QUOTE]

what did ONLY republicans force the democrats to omit that would make health insurance more available? Government run option? sorry but i seem to remember a large number of democrats rejecting that as well...

I also remember the democrats in congress having both majorities (pre scott brown), I would think that if it was just republicans being douches, they would have went over their heads, but those silly moderates that listened (well partially) to the American public. Silly politicians the public doesn't know what they want, they are dumb and must be given what they need!
 
Knoell,

You repeatedly assert the same silly falsehood over and over.

You wait until you think people forget it was disproven roughly 302 times and then repeat it again.

Spare me your concern.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell,

You repeatedly assert the same silly falsehood over and over.

You wait until you think people forget it was disproven roughly 302 times and then repeat it again.

Spare me your concern.[/QUOTE]

look at your posts, you consistantly tell everyone who disagrees with you that they do not know what they are talking about. Learn to debate or stay off the forums man. Just because you agree with yourself does not mean you are right.
 
Knoell, I am far from the only one who has pointed out you have no idea what you are talking about or cannot construct an argument
in this thread
.

Saying we have the best healthcare in the world
for millionaires
is inane, wrongheaded and a dishonest moving of the goalposts.

It is silly and not worth engaging.

What would you like me do?

Say "You are totally awesome and post worthwhile responses" just to make you feel better?

Give you a goldstar?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell, I am far from the only one who has pointed out you have no idea what you are talking about or cannot construct an argument
in this thread
.

Saying we have the best healthcare in the world
for millionaires
is inane, wrongheaded and a dishonest moving of the goalposts.

It is silly and not worth engaging.

What would you like me do?

Say "You are totally awesome and post worthwhile responses" just to make you feel better?

Give you a goldstar?[/QUOTE]

Yep the people who agree with you have agreed with you on that too. Shocking!

Sorry but I know quite a few people who have had medical treatment for some fairly serious stuff, and they definately weren't millionaires. Now my personal experience is not the rule, but Im willing to bet for every 1 person that got booted off their insurance because they were sick, there are thousands who have had treatment for a wealth of different illnesses, and injuries. Lets keep the myth that you cant get health care unless your a millionaire to the msnbc talking points.
 
Knoell do you happen to believe that you pretending to bet on something is an argument?

Because you disguise assertions all the time saying you "guarantee" or "bet" on it.

Do you have data are you willing to actually quantify something? Are you willing to even pretend anymore?

If not you aren't worth replying to.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell do you happen to believe that you pretending to bet on something is an argument?

Because you disguise assertions all the time saying you "guarantee" or "bet" on it.

Do you have data are you willing to actually quantify something? Are you willing to even pretend anymore?

If not you aren't worth replying to.[/QUOTE]

gee and I thought you were the one insinuating that noone but millionaires got good health care...sorry

edit: ok give me something that says 97% of people in this country dont get good health care. last time I checked a little more than 1% (maybe 2 or 3 %) of americans make over a million dollars, so you are telling me 97% of people in this country do not get good health care? Ok maybe the people who make 500K or more only get good health care ;). I think it is...how did you put it? an inane, wrongheaded and a dishonest moving of the goalposts to say we have the worst health care system of industrialized countries.
 
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[quote name='Knoell']Explain to me the difference between a nurse practitioner and a doctor, and then explain to me why a nurse practitioner should be diagnosing anything without a second look from a doctor. Last time I saw a nurse practitioner all she could do was refer me to specialists for minor problems such as heartburn, and a slight pain in my lower side. That gets pricey for insurance companies, but who cares they deserve to pay for EVERYTHING since we pay a 100 bucks a month to them.[/QUOTE]
Well I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that isn't always the case. For simple things I have no problem seeing the woman at my doctor's practice.
 
[quote name='Knoell']what did ONLY republicans force the democrats to omit that would make health insurance more available? Government run option? sorry but i seem to remember a large number of democrats rejecting that as well...[/QUOTE]

There was another democrat who rejected that, and his name was Barack Obama. The president was never fully behind it (though as a candidate, his rhetoric certainly was.)

[quote name='Knoell'] I also remember the democrats in congress having both majorities (pre scott brown), I would think that if it was just republicans being douches, they would have went over their heads, but those silly moderates that listened (well partially) to the American public. Silly politicians the public doesn't know what they want, they are dumb and must be given what they need![/QUOTE]

People STILL don't know whats in the bill, I heard a commentator on FOX recently call it a gov't takeover of healthcare. Since when is handing vouchers out to poor people to get heatlhcare a 'takeover'?

Yeah, it was Republicans being douches, because a lot of them rejected their own ideas! This latest healthcare plan was essentially Dolecare back in the 90's. Now that a Democrat is pushing it...well now its socialism and a fascist takeover of the system (even though the process was completely democratic...)
 
[quote name='IRHari']People STILL don't know whats in the bill, [/quote]

Yeah - and most of them voted for it.

Anywhoo...

http://www.biotechnologyhealthcare..../BH0602035.pdf?CFID=57897841&CFTOKEN=16271343
We can make a sensible social decision and say, “Well, at this point, to have access to a particular additional benefit [new drug or medical intervention] is so expensive that our taxpayers have better use for those funds.” We make those decisions all the time. The decision is not whether or not we will ration care — the decision is whether we will ration with our eyes open. And right now, we are doing it blindly."
Click to expand...

Do we have the death panels yet?
 
I don't understand, you're ok when insurance companies literally ration care by halting coverage when people get catastrophic illnesses, but when a gummint official does it you blow up?
 
[quote name='IRHari']I don't understand, you're ok when insurance companies literally ration care by halting coverage when people get catastrophic illnesses, but when a gummint official does it you blow up?[/QUOTE]

I'm confused - are you admitting that there will be death panels?

I thought ObamaCare was going to provide health care for everyone. I thought that preventive medicine and family doctors was going to lower costs. I thought socialized health care would gives us all unicorns to ride to work so we wouldn't have as many carbon emissions.

PS: I, alone, pick my health care provider. So, if I pick a bad one, well, sucks to be me. If Sarah Palin becomes president in 2012, you'll be okay with whatever she decides to do with health care, right?
 
It sounds like he is arguing that it is going on already, we are just not acknowledging it. The private insurance companies already do it.

Maybe you could explain why you're so butthurt over his comment, because I'm interested in what the outrage is about. I'd like to hear more than just 'zomgwtbbqdeathpanels'

I don't know what Sarah Palin's health care plan is. Is it the free market will fix it? The free market isn't working too well right now.
 
[quote name='IRHari']It sounds like he is arguing that it is going on already, we are just not acknowledging it. The private insurance companies already do it.

Maybe you could explain why you're so butthurt over his comment, because I'm interested in what the outrage is about. I'd like to hear more than just 'zomgwtbbqdeathpanels'

I don't know what Sarah Palin's health care plan is. Is it the free market will fix it? The free market isn't working too well right now.[/QUOTE]

So you are arguing for a government policy that you say reflects what the current evil insurance companies do that you guys complain about repeatedly? Am I missing something?

You would think that instead of blindly following the policy makers you would question some of the things they are doing, but thats beyond you guys.
 
Oh ok.

Nah, we don't have death panels. Republican fear mongering.

I haven't argued anything Knoell. I'm asking questions. I'm questioning with boldness. I'm trying to figure out the butthurt behind his comment. If you can explain it I'd appreciate it.

I'm not blindly following anything, I definitely criticized this watered down bill. Go play some fuck.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Oh ok.

Nah, we don't have death panels. Republican fear mongering.[/QUOTE]

Cool.
Someone let me know when we do, will ya?
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Isn't recission the free market equivalent of a death panel?[/QUOTE]

But that's beautiful and natural, like a stream through a green pasture.
 
I read recession first too, but it was actually rescission (without the first s in there).

Still a beautiful free market bureaucracy over a disgusting government bureaucracy.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'm sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescission

EDIT: How many more times do you need this explained to you, Bob? Are you taking the Knoell route and hoping everybody puts you on ignore so your point stands unchallenged?[/QUOTE]

At least I address any challenges to my point, I still haven't seen Msuts proof that only millionaires get good health care in the US.
 
[quote name='Knoell']At least I address any challenges to my point, I still haven't seen Msuts proof that only millionaires get good health care in the US.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...

Ceding 80% of the population to substandard health care isn't a victory.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Yeah...

Ceding 80% of the population to substandard health care isn't a victory.[/QUOTE]

Ok, so Ill be waiting for your proof that 80% of the population has substandard health care. How about even 50%?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']it's not a death panel. it's pruning a bonsai oh so delicately.[/QUOTE]
With a chainsaw.


Which is awesome.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Ok, so Ill be waiting for your proof that 80% of the population has substandard health care. How about even 50%?[/QUOTE]
2007 Commonwealth Fund study: Over 30 percent are uninsured and go without or spend 1000s out of their pockets... That's just the start... Google it yourself, lazy bum. (or dont)

This study also shows us in terms of quality of healthcare relative to the rest of the world. In comparison, most of us are getting substandard care. For a lot more money, too.
 
[quote name='dorino']2007 Commonwealth Fund study: Over 30 percent are uninsured and go without or spend 1000s out of their pockets... That's just the start... Google it yourself, lazy bum. (or dont)

This study also shows us in terms of quality of healthcare relative to the rest of the world. In comparison, most of us are getting substandard care. For a lot more money, too.[/QUOTE]

30% uninsured huh? Care to point me to where it says this in your study?but for the sake of debate so more than 100,000,000 americans have no health coverage? Seems somebody on the other side messed up when they were estimating it to be 30 million which a portion of those 30 million are younger people who deem insurance not worth the price at their age.

Heres where I think you got that info from and to me it seems fairly clouded.
Americans were significantly more likely to have out-of-pocket costs greater than $1000 for medical bills (34%), as opposed to only 4 percent of adults in the U.K.
Click to expand...
A thousand over an entire year seems a bit low, I bet most people spend far more than that on leisure activities a year. Now that obviously is the low end of the spectrum but it seems like setting a number that low, you are going to capture alot more people in it. Compared to the UK, it is crap, but then are they paying more or less in taxes for health care now (pre new bill).


This is also curious,
The indicators of quality were grouped into four categories: right (or effective) care, safe care, coordinated care, and patient-centered care. Compared with the other five countries, the U.S. fares best on provision and receipt of preventive care, a dimension of "right care.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='Knoell']30% uninsured huh? Care to point me to where it says this in your study?but for the sake of debate so more than 100,000,000 americans have no health coverage? Seems somebody on the other side messed up when they were estimating it to be 30 million which a portion of those 30 million are younger people who deem insurance not worth the price at their age.

Heres where I think you got that info from and to me it seems fairly clouded.
A thousand over an entire year seems a bit low, I bet most people spend far more than that on leisure activities a year. Now that obviously is the low end of the spectrum but it seems like setting a number that low, you are going to capture alot more people in it. Compared to the UK, it is crap, but then are they paying more or less in taxes for health care now (pre new bill).


This is also curious,[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I did misread on the 30%. Still, it is half that. Which is still a very high number. 1000s a year out of pocket isn't a bit low, for something that should be fundamental.

We may fare best with preventative care, but we're the worst or near worst in all the other categories. That's not really something to be proud of, I'd reckon. Maybe be proud of it if we were a third world country, but as a superpower, we should really be doing better.

If you really think that we have good health care in comparison with the rest of the world, than statistics, facts, and every study I've seen are opposing you. :/

In comparison to someone of the same financial situation in, say, the UK, I would say that most of Americans are getting sub-par performance. The rich, of course, are doing far better here. That doesn't do much to make me happy.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Ok, so Ill be waiting for your proof that 80% of the population has substandard health care. How about even 50%?[/QUOTE]

Are you willing to stipulate 50% of Americans have substandard health care provided by the free market or will those goalposts move, too?

Assuming I provide a reasonable proof, does that modify your staunch opposition to socialized medicine or will you take the same position next month much like Msut continues to point out?
 
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